Larian Studios Forums Baldur's Gate III Baldur's Gate III - Suggestions & Feedback Add more answer options for Astarion

So we're moving to game design now? I see what you're doing but okay, I've got time to correct you.

From a game design perspective the flag for Astarion's ascension/spawn path goes up at Cazador's dungeon (and by the way it's not a good/evil flag because the game doesn't have a morality system; if I recall correctly it's flagged as spawn and vampire lord), not in the romance dialogue. Moreover, as this game doesn't have a morality system like say, Mass Effect to use a very simplistic example, your (the player's) character does not have good/evil flags attached to them, and neither does anything else in the game for that matter. You are fully able to be as all over the board with your morality and decisions as you wish, because the game does not flag them in any way beyond potential consequences for said decision (like if a character dies or something). The only flag the dialogue being discussed here is concerned with is whether or not the romance continues, and a neutral option does not affect that because the dialogue ends with you making a decision on the matter (Astarion romance true or Astarion romance false). So yes, I should be able to say "no reason" because the flag this moment is concerned about is not "why did you do this" but "continue romance or not", and the deciding factor for that is whether you become Astarion's spawn or not, not whatever your reason for ascending him is (in case you need further proof of this, be aware that if you start fighting Astarion, you don't have to provide a reason for why you ascended him, you just have to be an ass to him for no reason).

Moreover, if the game asks you, the player, to make a decision, it is by design asking the player character to make a decision. This is a roleplaying game -- a roleplaying game that gives you the freedom to play however you want, might I add. You can save the Grove and be an absolute monster afterwards, and no morality flag goes off. You save every single tiefling and slaughter everyone else, and no flag about your morality goes up. You can keep Shadowheart Sharran and be a perfect angel for the rest of the game, and no morality flag goes up. So since this game is not concerned about the player's morality, it should give me a neutral option in a dialogue that's only concerned with romance flags.

Also, it's roleplaying. You're supposed to make decisions that fit your character, not decisions that you with your meta-gaming knowledge would make (unless that's your playstyle in which case you do you, but don't assume that others don't want to actually roleplay their characters, and that the game only caters to those who meta-game every decision). You are in control of your character and their decisions, yes, but the game doesn't make a separation with you and your character because that's just dumb. This isn't a game that's bad enough to break the fourth wall in this one moment to demand the player justify why their character behaved in a certain way and what your irl meta-gamed reason for this decision was. The character will have to make that justification, and for a lot of people that justification is "because Astarion asked you to help him do this", because that's how they roleplay their character. You're just going to have to accept that, I'm afraid.

Also as a side note I would hope it's the highest body count event because that's hilarious and I should be able to commit more mass murder for my digital romance options.

Totally support the OP here

My character loves Astarion, wants what will make him happy and doesn't give a damn what anyone else thinks of their choices.
So yeah I want to be able to tell him as much. What happens in their future is in the future, as of right this minute Tav doesn't know what any of the conversation choices will lead to (without meta gaming).

At this precise moment and in answer to 'Tell me what you desire'

'I just want to be with you my love'.

Simple

Totally support the OP here

My character loves Astarion, wants what will make him happy and doesn't give a damn what anyone else thinks of their choices.
So yeah I want to be able to tell him as much. What happens in their future is in the future, as of right this minute Tav doesn't know what any of the conversation choices will lead to (without meta gaming).

At this precise moment and in answer to 'Tell me what you desire'

'I just want to be with you my love'.

Simple

Totally support the OP here

My character loves Astarion, wants what will make him happy and doesn't give a damn what anyone else thinks of their choices.
So yeah I want to be able to tell him as much. What happens in their future is in the future, as of right this minute Tav doesn't know what any of the conversation choices will lead to (without meta gaming).

At this precise moment and in answer to 'Tell me what you desire'

'I just want to be with you my love'.

Simple

Totally support the OP here

My character loves Astarion, wants what will make him happy and doesn't give a damn what anyone else thinks of their choices.
So yeah I want to be able to tell him as much. What happens in their future is in the future, as of right this minute Tav doesn't know what any of the conversation choices will lead to (without meta gaming).

At this precise moment and in answer to 'Tell me what you desire'

'I just want to be with you my love'.

Simple

Totally support the OP here

My character loves Astarion, wants what will make him happy and doesn't give a damn what anyone else thinks of their choices.
So yeah I want to be able to tell him as much. What happens in their future is in the future, as of right this minute Tav doesn't know what any of the conversation choices will lead to (without meta gaming).

At this precise moment and in answer to 'Tell me what you desire'

'I just want to be with you my love'.

Simple

I don't really care about the extra dialogue if Larian's willing to do it, but those of you that want to skip the requirements for continuing the Ascended Astarion romance (being a spawn) are hilarious. The character is as he was written. You do not have complete and total roleplay freedom in this game because that would be impossible to code. There has to be a framework set up for the game, and you work within that framework with however many choices/options. If you're looking for much more roleplay freedom play tabletop dnd or some online thing, you aren't going to get everything you could ever possibly want in a video game.

Oh I don't know, we got an ending party after all

There is no point in further discussion.

If you guys honestly feel like the game does not restrict any of your other RP options throughout the gameplay, more power to you. If you guys don't feel like there are markers for an evil play-through, it's legit. (Larian made me feel terrible during evil playthroughs or committing evil acts while in a generally good playthrough, but alas it's just me) If you guys want unlimited RP or other flavors of RP, there are plenty of opportunities out there.

I still feel like it's an overindulgent ask (which goes against the general feel of the game) but that's just me.

It's already in the game. This is not what I want, this is what we were really given lol. How could they add voiced phrases for this without planning it?

Speaking of the "mortal ending".
That's another reason why all this dialogue is so weak.
If you go to the final battle, and ask to make Tav a vampire afterwards, Astarion "approves".

And there's a dialogue here:
Player: Actually, no. This isn't what I want.
Astarion: This isn't what you want yet. I'm sure you'll come around in your own good time.
Astarion: But until the moment's right, we can still be together. We can still taste all the delights of this world.
Astarion: We have a beautiful, bloody future to look forward to, my love. I can't be sure what it holds for us, but I know one thing.
Astarion: This is going to be fun.

He reacts much more calmly, and most importantly he doesn't break off the relationship. The whole third act is going to take a long time to improve. The romance with Minthara, too, so. With Lord Astarion, details can be added as well.
I think after the ritual it's worth adding "conviction" to wait. And if it fails, it will be yes or no.
Then it would lead to the already existing "mortal ending" without skipping content.

Also there are no details about it in the epilogue, it's all spawn. But then you should have added that he talked Tav into it in a couple of months.
I wonder how they will build an epilogue to this ending. This part will be told by the narrator, or as some dialogue, or Tav will still remain mortal.

I was wondering how the epilogue accounted for that outcome. It's a shame to hear it's undercooked. If Tav asked to be a vampire then it's right that in the epilogue they already are a spawn, considering Astarion wants to turn them the first night after the final conversation. If they went with Tav being talked into it before the party, I think there would be complaints that there was no player choice involved. They could perhaps have another discussion about it during the party, with Astarion being impatient about the whole thing already and putting some pressure on Tav? We'll just have to wait and see.

I join and fully support the OP and everyone who loves Ascended Astarion! Even one simple classic, "I love you" would have been much better than the lines we are offered now in this dialog. It feels like the game is trying to "teach the player a lesson" by forcing them to choose a rather primitive and somewhat vulgar line about "body", just because all the other lines are completely inappropriate. I'm certainly willing to accept any challenge for Astarion's sake, but it was nice if these challenges were realistic and within the confines of a roleplay, and just making the Tavs look worse than they are is a bit odd considering the fact that all the players are adults and no one needs moralizing. All in all, Ascended Astarion's romance is beautiful, it gives a completely extraordinary emotion that no RPG has ever given before. Fixing the above points will only make the game better!

I agree with the suggestions of the first message. Although I have already adapted to what is available. I choose the lines where we argue with Astarion, and then we make peace and approach the conversion of my character into spawn, these lines with the argument even reveal Astarion to us very well, he is more honest there, or something. But I agree that there should be a more neutral or positive line, because I choose the ritual for Astarion not for benefit and not for his body, it generally sounds strange. I choose the ritual for his well-being, life as a full-fledged person, without any restrictions that spawn and ordinary vampires have. This is what Astarion wanted. I do this primarily for his, and not for myself. And of course there is such a line, but it comes through an argument, which is not very good. Here the question is specifically for our character, why he suddenly begins to be negative or lustful, although the prerequisites for carrying out the ritual are different. In this thread some person say because the authors show us that this is a bad path, but my character knew this from the very beginning and deliberately went for it for Astarion, up to this point it was possible to choose the appropriate options, and there was not a hint of lust or becoming a vampire, and now suddenly our character says that I want your body or I want to become a vampire (these are the only positive answers) this is not serious, well. In this scene, I don’t recognize my character, who was there the entire game, he was replaced here.

I support the OP's request. I do not like having my character used to make a point about an NPC. The way my Tav reacts should be down to me, not railroaded like this. So, yes, a more neutral option would be very welcome.

I agree completely.

I really don't see this as his bad path. His original creator called it his evil ending and I share that view. To me his bad endings are: getting staked, given to the Gur, becoming a zombie, getting consumed in the ritual, not receiving help with Cazador, becoming a mind flayer, etc.

My motives for helping him were exactly the same as yours. I also didn't recognise my chara in that moment and had to choose the least offensive line for her, but it still wasn't something I was happy with. All of the responses have unpleasant tones.

I've worked on a pic that summarises the lack of logic and roleplay options in this scene: https://forums.larian.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=939054#Post939054

The "I want to become a vampire like you" answer looks even dumber if you remember how in Act 1 Astarion explained to my Tav, how to become a vampire, that you have to drink your master's blood, how to become a Spawn. And why he, as a Spawn, can walk on the sun (he can't really, it's a maggot, dumb Tav).
And now that Spawn Astarion is becoming an Ascended (that's actually new), how does TAV know that Ascended can even convert? And who does that end up being? A spawn? A regular vampire right away? Or something else.

The game absolutely should give players more options in this moment. There should be more options throughout the game at every point. I find too many places where the options presented are insufficient. It's the biggest reason I found this game to be disappointing from the beginning.

There's already ways to skip breaking up with AA by skipping long resting until the Netherbrain is dead. It might be hilarious to you but it's obvious someone at Larian supports it if they let AA go to Avernus with Karlach or let Tav/Durge put off becoming a spawn even in the epilogue, without AA breaking up with them.

Tell me how it makes sense this loophole exists? Why don't they just make AA break up with Karlach and an unturned Tav/Durge with no option to delay it in the epilogue?

This is why I find the current dialogue options problematic and why I would like to see more choice.


The conversation after the ritual with Ascended Astarion

Here the writer shows us that Astarion saw Tav assisting him as a transaction and he now wants to know what Tav expects in return.
This is totally in character for A. A. and it works really well, showing us that in spite of ascending and gaining such great power, Astarion is still damaged. He is insecure and he still has low self-esteem. He cannot not believe Tav helped because they love him, or simply felt that ascension was the best option for him.
In the responses, the options are all very different, giving the player a good choice of motives for Tav.

I wanted what was best for you. (altruistic, reassuring)
I wasn’t about to release 7,000 hungry vampire spawn into the world. (chose the lesser of two evils)
I don’t feel great about it to be honest. (no motive given but expresses regret over allowing the ascension)
I wanted a powerful ally, and now I have one. (selfish, transactional)

However, player if choses the altruistic, reassuring first option, the second set of dialogue choices is far too narrow. There is not one positive response to the question,

'So, tell me what you desire. What can I do for my dearest pet?

I want to be a vampire, like you. (selfish, transactional)
I want you, I want your body. (selfish, transactional and completely insensitive!)
You can tell me that you've learned something from all this. (Preaching and hostile)
I am not your pet. (hostile)

These options are far too similar. There is no altruistic or reassuring option and I really feel there should be.
Personally, I feel that option two is the most problematic here, because Tav knows Astarion's past. They know how he was used by Cazador and the effect that had on him, so it seems very odd at this point in their relationship for Tav to say they also want to use Astarion.

I also feel the player should have a chance to respond if they mind-read A.Astarion and find out that he feels Tav is degrading themselves by staying with him and speculates that they might enjoy that degredation. It makes no sense to me that Tav would not even attempt to have some dialogue with A.A. after a discovery of this magnitude, especially if they do not see things the same way as A.A.


With Spawn Astarion, before the graveyard scene, the issue is again the lack of choice in the dialogue options, but in this case, the player has no way of choosing a negative or hostile response.


Why do I think this is a problem?

-It breaks the fourth wall.
If the player cannot chose an option that is a reasonable match for their Tav’s motivations, they are still forced to choose something and then deal with the consequences of that ‘choice’. This pulls Tav out of character and leaves the player feeling railroaded, forced to follow a narrative that does not feel true or authentic to them.

-It removes player agency.
One of the main selling points of a game like BG3 is that it gives the player the freedom to not only determine their character's appearance and class but also to give that character a distinct personality. Tav's personality is given expression through the choices the player makes in game and this gives a wonderfully rich experience that can leave the player very invested in their character.
However, when Tav's responses are limited as in the examples above, the player loses agency. They are no longer in control of the narrative and this makes their experience far less immersive and enjoyable.