He and the player were forced into the situation. I admit, Astarion handles it better than I'm able to. The point is, he shouldn't have to handle it in the first place. The way he's treated at the docks is horrible and the player should be given a choice to follow him.
True. We should've been given a choice here instead of being stuck in place.
btw I haven't checked but I doubt it has been changed anyway -> the whole "I'll protect you"
if you guys are on larian's discord, there's another absolutely amazing suggestion we could send.. to change this option from "I promise to protect you always, you'll never need the power of an Ascendant" into this "You don't need the powers of an Ascendant to protect me."
Which would be great callback to camp ambush dialogue. Not getting my hopes up, though.
It's like the writing says "this kind of person deserves all the attention while that kind of person deserves none", right? And it's unfortunate that they got so much of him right, and then the ending...well, practically needs a trigger warning for someone who can relate to him.
Exactly. I feel like you understand and share (some of) my thoughts and why the scene is such an issue. You have no idea, how much that means to me. Or perhaps you do, anyways, thank you.
I think I do. As much as I don't like talking about why exactly this scene is so wrong, I'm glad I did.
Originally Posted by adriana
btw I haven't checked but I doubt it has been changed anyway -> the whole "I'll protect you"
So, instead of fixing the dock scene they made it even worse? This is heartbreaking.
Though I really like the new epilogue, so one loss, one gain I guess. (But why are there three different lines from him about the lack of fresh blood and I can't even offer?)
At least it's not mentioned when he's in a romantic relationship. So I won't ever see that in any of my games.
He says that? Alas, Withers, what didst thee bethink?
It's just hard to "unhear" it now that I know it's there and that this is the canon feeling for him in that moment. Luckily we know that he does seek out a romanced pc after sunset, but that doesn't really make up for not being able to go after him right away to make sure he's ok.
Larian has given us a lot of great possibilities to roleplay our characters and have thought of a lot of odd situations that can occur, but the moments where they railroad us into a certain behaviour to make the story work are really frustrating. And it's very often in the companion moments (thinking of not being able to hug Shadowheart in that certain Act 3 scene, argh!).
I've mentioned this before, but the dock scene gets even worse if you are doing a playthrough with Astarion as the only companion as you hear his whole conversation from the hopeful "maybe the sunwalker effect was permanent" to him running away and then you totally unfazed turn your back to him and sheepishly smile into the sunset with the narrator saying that Astarion will probably seek comfort in the shadows now but that his own comfort luckily always was one of his specialities. Not even the epilogue can make up for that experience.
I agree with the "infected wound in a bandage" comparison.
My only hope is that they might revisit the dock scene at a later date if we keep this discussion alive via feedback in different channels. Up to now their story focus has been the epilogue so maybe they have time to tweek other bits.
Regarding the dock scene, I always hear people complain about Minsc's cheesy line of bringing him a sunflower since he can't see the sun, but he's the only companion that mentions actually going after him. The epilogue nicely ties this up with Minsc hanging out with Astarion underground. (However one-sided it is implied to be.)
Larian has given us a lot of great possibilities to roleplay our characters and have thought of a lot of odd situations that can occur, but the moments where they railroad us into a certain behaviour to make the story work are really frustrating. And it's very often in the companion moments (thinking of not being able to hug Shadowheart in that certain Act 3 scene, argh!).
Yeah, but in this case (and Shadowheart's) there isn't even a story. What would it be? That the pc is emotionally inept or an asshole?
Originally Posted by Veranis
I've mentioned this before, but the dock scene gets even worse if you are doing a playthrough with Astarion as the only companion as you hear his whole conversation from the hopeful "maybe the sunwalker effect was permanent" to him running away and then you totally unfazed turn your back to him and sheepishly smile into the sunset with the narrator saying that Astarion will probably seek comfort in the shadows now but that his own comfort luckily always was one of his specialities. Not even the epilogue can make up for that experience.
"his own comfort luckily always was one of his specialities." Do I need to say anything about this line in relation to his past? Please tell me I don't.
Originally Posted by Veranis
I agree with the "infected wound in a bandage" comparison.
My only hope is that they might revisit the dock scene at a later date if we keep this discussion alive via feedback in different channels. Up to now their story focus has been the epilogue so maybe they have time to tweek other bits.
That whole sequence is a mess so they should at some point revisit it. Maybe if Astarion's ending somehow makes it to frequent feedback we have a chance.
Larian has given us a lot of great possibilities to roleplay our characters and have thought of a lot of odd situations that can occur, but the moments where they railroad us into a certain behaviour to make the story work are really frustrating. And it's very often in the companion moments (thinking of not being able to hug Shadowheart in that certain Act 3 scene, argh!).
Yeah, but in this case (and Shadowheart's) there isn't even a story. What would it be? That the pc is emotionally inept or an asshole?
Ha! Yeah, sorry. Maybe I should have said "make the scene work with the least common denominator" so it even fits those that have no special relationship to the companions. The game is constantly forgetting we're in a romance
(DUrge being killed by Bhaal scene, I'm looking at you!)
. Small things like standing closer while you are talking, taking the other's hand etc would go a long way. That's why the romance content (as good as some of it is outside the main the story) feels half-baked.
Originally Posted by t1mekill3r
"his own comfort luckily always was one of his specialities." Do I need to say anything about this line in relation to his past? Please tell me I don't.
I think I swore loudly at my monitor when that came up. Like, who the hells wrote this?
Originally Posted by t1mekill3r
That whole sequence is a mess so they should at some point revisit it. Maybe if Astarion's ending somehow makes it to frequent feedback we have a chance.
Yep, we need to keep soldiering on. This is still my biggest gripe with the spawn Astarion arc (this and the "I'll protect you line").
Ha! Yeah, sorry. Maybe I should have said "make the scene work with the least common denominator" so it even fits those that have no special relationship to the companions. The game is constantly forgetting we're in a romance
(DUrge being killed by Bhaal scene, I'm looking at you!)
. Small things like standing closer while you are talking, taking the other's hand etc would go a long way. That's why the romance content (as good as some of it is outside the main the story) feels half-baked.
No worries, the dig was meant at the writing, not at your comment. And they certainly didn't make it work for people who have no special relationship to the character in Karlach's ending.
Also, where I'm from, if someone's face is burning we check up on them even if we don't know them at all.
Originally Posted by Veranis
Originally Posted by t1mekill3r
"his own comfort luckily always was one of his specialities." Do I need to say anything about this line in relation to his past? Please tell me I don't.
I think I swore loudly at my monitor when that came up. Like, who the hells wrote this?
Dare I say... someone who is either emotionally inept... or an asshole..? Seriously though, it doesn't take a phd in psychology to understand what it implies.
Originally Posted by Veranis
This is still my biggest gripe with the spawn Astarion arc (this and the "I'll protect you line").
And if you play Durge, after rejecting Bhaal you can once again tell him practically the same. The two options are "you don't need to be afraid of me anymore" and "now I'll be able to protect you." At least the second one also thanks him for staying with you that night in Act 2. But I think saying something more along the lines of "now I won't have to be afraid of waking up to your dead body" would make more sense.
Oh.... this own comfort thing suddenly lets that utterly weird cut-scene you get in Origin make sense. The one in which he stalks some fellow in the sewers - Which I found very disconcerting because it made assumptions about my PC that didn't align at all with what had happened before in the game.
What the. As if it's not his victory too. I think someone on the writing team might be a bit too much into angst.
They really are into angst, aren't they? Although I will always go with ascension in my game, I would still like to see the spawn path get its justice and have a different ending. I am disappointed to see they didn't fix the atrocious dock scene but even doubled down on it and added extra angst for Astarion. He was ashamed... really? Even if your chara was his only real friend? Even if he's scared of being alone? C'mon... He was part of the team!
Now that they added such a nice epilogue party, they should also change the ending itself. If they insist so much on having Astarion burn in the sun, I would like to see a short scene where they all go look for him, find him and then go into the tavern and toast together and have that be the last shot before the private conversation with our LI.
Never ascend Astarion, never not deal with Cazador, never let Gale explode, never promise the Crown to too many people and then forget to tie up loose ends ... maybe not let Gale become a God either.
Not in that order, more in parallel importance of horrible things to do. Thank you for sharing that very depressing video.
a God in my game and I was quite happy with the outcome tbh. You have a powerful ally in case of another world crisis event (what Withers says indicates there is bound to be another one) plus you may even become his Chosen one day. The ending where he explodes though...
Not helping Astarion with Cazador and Mad Durge are the worst 'good' endings to me now.
Now that they added such a nice epilogue party, they should also change the ending itself. If they insist so much on having Astarion burn in the sun, I would like to see a short scene where they all go look for him, find him and then go into the tavern and toast together and have that be the last shot before the private conversation with our LI.
It would help, in my opinion, if they took the whole scene and not only a portion of it seriously. I mean, what happens is, that right when they are feeling good about themselves and want to celebrate, two horrible things happen almost at the same time, both Astarion and Karlach go up in Flames. If some of those who aren't necessary for Karlach's scene went after Astarion instead, that would help a lot - maybe some of the spellcasters who could actually do something useful or heal him.
(Though my headcanon remains, that the remaining gang meets at Nine-Fingers Bar to celebrate/mourn that not all their friends can be around.)
Now that they added such a nice epilogue party, they should also change the ending itself. If they insist so much on having Astarion burn in the sun, I would like to see a short scene where they all go look for him, find him and then go into the tavern and toast together and have that be the last shot before the private conversation with our LI.
It would help, in my opinion, if they took the whole scene and not only a portion of it seriously. I mean, what happens is, that right when they are feeling good about themselves and want to celebrate, two horrible things happen almost at the same time, both Astarion and Karlach go up in Flames. If some of those who aren't necessary for Karlach's scene went after Astarion instead, that would help a lot - maybe some of the spellcasters who could actually do something useful or heal him.
(Though my headcanon remains, that the remaining gang meets at Nine-Fingers Bar to celebrate/mourn that not all their friends can be around.)
Not everyone has both Astarion and Karlach in the party. So in that case you should be able to go after the one you have. Now Astarion can be literally the only other person with you on the docks and you still can't follow him.
Ah I hadn't even considered that, since I usually have a full party. ^^; In any case, I think they should both be taken seriously.
Originally Posted by Ametris
Gale became
a God in my game and I was quite happy with the outcome tbh. You have a powerful ally in case of another world crisis event (what Withers says indicates there is bound to be another one) plus you may even become his Chosen one day. The ending where he explodes though...
It's not the worst, but I much prefer
my adventurer ending, where they do basically what Astarion talks about in his friendly-dialogue. Gale seems to be happy as long as he can help people, enjoys to study more from life than from books and takes time for his creative interests. Sounded a bit as if he would multiclass into bard. ^^ I confess it is tooth-rotting fluff, but I am happy for them.
Never ascend Astarion, never not deal with Cazador, never let Gale explode, never promise the Crown to too many people and then forget to tie up loose ends ... maybe not let Gale become a God either.
No kidding! Though I applaud Larian for leaning into our choices and including so many heart-breaking consequences. Just never want to see those myself.
my adventurer ending, where they do basically what Astarion talks about in his friendly-dialogue. Gale seems to be happy as long as he can help people, enjoys to study more from life than from books and takes time for his creative interests. Sounded a bit as if he would multiclass into bard. ^^ I confess it is tooth-rotting fluff, but I am happy for them.
Awww that sounds so sweet.
My chaotic neutral wizard drow Tav started off kinda like Gale with ambitions to gain more knowledge and personal power and pushing boundaries to better herself. They are good friends so it was nice to see he succeeded and stuffed it with Mystra (like Astarion did with Cazador). Plus as an ascended vampire spawn they have eternity to talk about magic and the universe. In my HC my Tav takes over Sorcerous Sundries because it's empty. I hope she can wield galerian magic one day. I like the idea of having a Vampire King husband and God of Ambition as a friend. It was kinda funny to be called a bad influence by Tara, while Astarion was the original bad influence on my chara.
It was kinda funny to be called a bad influence by Tara, while Astarion was the original bad influence on my chara. 