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stranger
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OP
stranger
Joined: Nov 2023
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So I was tricked by the developers and played a custom character for my first playthrough. Of course, I missed a huge chunk of the story by not playing Durge and the further I went through the story the less it made sense. Why did the prism choose VeryGenericMan(Tav)? Well, the Netherbrain tells you that the whole Emperor protecting you thing was planned for. But why stick to Tav in particular? Tav is a level one nobody with no history of accomplishments or anything that indicates that they could take down three Chosen, who from DnD lore are supposed to be among the top dogs of the mortal world.
In fact, even some of the other origins aren't compatible with the Emperor's manipulations. It makes even less sense for the anti-Gith Emperor to stick with an anti-illithid rookie like Lae'zel. Could maybe work with Gale but again he's an F up at that point with obligations to Mystra. I guess Shadowheart works, because she stole the prism in the first place, and Karlach who has no other option.
Enter the Dark Urge origin which solves a lot of these questions. It makes sense why the prism sticks to them. After all at their height they were a demigod pretty much and were the only one the elder brain respected.
When I first played it I knew Durge was the Bhaalspawn but I had no idea what's the connection with the main plot. It was around Moonrise tower where you get the first hints in one of the best interactions in the entire game with Steelclaw, the cat who tells you that you were calling the shots not too long ago. Then you enter the tower and you get another missable great interaction in Ketheric's throne room where he hints that he knows you and all the others in the towers do as well. Agh it still annoys me that I didn't get to experience this for my first playthrough.
So why is the origin system flawed if playing Durge can give a satisfactory answer? Well, when you head up stairs as Durge to Z'rell she doesn't even know you! Neither does Balthazar nor most of the cult throughout the game! There's simply no reaction from those who should know that they're dealing with a crazy murder demigod. Not only do you miss half the story if you didn't choose Durge but there's also very little reactivity even for Durge. I think the devs should've just focused on the Bhaalspawn origin and not allocate their resources to making every companion playable. I always hear the same argument that what Larian did isn't new, the original games had premade characters...etc. This argument is 100% false. Picking a premade character doesn't change the origin. You're still Gorion's Ward, you still grew up in Candlekeep with Imoen,...etc. Unfortunately, not picking Durge is like playing as a random companion in BG1/2, picking Shadowheart is playing as Morrigan in DA:O, and Lae'zel might as well be Dakkon in Planescape Torment. Larian shouldn't have tried to reinvent the wheel with the origin system when games like DA:O already had a perfect one which connects you to the world. In this case we can only play a Bhaalspawn but with a different backstory before they got to the temple. Example; a Bhaalspawn who was an orphan and lived off of scraps and a Bhaalspawn who was raised by nobility and then one day the urge kicked in and then next thing you know they're in daddy's temple. The point is you have to be the Durge for the story to work. I wish Larian would just release the darker early access story with Daisy and Tavdurge 
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journeyman
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journeyman
Joined: Jul 2023
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Yeah, I agree. I prefer a customizable protagonist with a backstory that weaves through the main plot and lets the player choose how the character reacts and develops. I understand that Larian was being ambitious here, but to me the whole BG3 plot feels very scattered because it has to juggle so many potential "main characters."
I consider the original Baldur's Gate games and Dragon Age: Origins to be the best examples of what I personally prefer in terms of protagonist design, for reference. DAO did a good job of providing different "origins" while providing the player with a lot of freedom in what kind of character they play. And despite all that choice, the plot narrowed in on that character and made them the true protagonist of the story. Just makes the whole narrative tie together better, IMO.
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addict
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addict
Joined: Oct 2023
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Something yu talked i always felt the same since the First time i Played the Game Back in lounch..
When they Split Tav/Durge to make 2 custom they made Both Worse..
(i never got to Play in EA but people allwas talks about the Tadpole had a Lot more stuff to it.)
So i Always felt weird the Spawn Durge stuff, would had been a lot betten your Dark Urge coming from the Tadpole Trying to Eat you alive.
and to tell yu the Truth..
Another Thing i always Felt since the First time i Played and after beating the game more then 12 times.. this only grow stronger each time..
I belave they never wanted us to Play as custom Character..
When i Bring Gale was actually the worst experience i had with companion becouse i felt the game wanted hin to be the Main the entire Time..
So i just did that after my first Game and fet corret to play as hin the Main. weird stuff.
Then i Made a Durge to see how it was.. Again same feeling even so i took Gale hand off i still felt Weird playing as Custom.. Like the game was not Made for it.
So i Never could brush off this Feeling that They actually wanted us tu Be one of the Origins..
(even the endings before this New Patch 5.0 were a lot Better when yu were one of then..)
The lack of Tent in Camp and many other Nit Pick stuff yu could use as argument..
that in my opinion the Custom Character were something they actually did not planned for real from the start..
but was added along the way becouse people always want to create their own character in a RPG its like No Go when yu dont Have stuff like that for Some.
Im maybe Wrong about it.. but i always felt this..no Joke.
Last edited by Thorvic; 09/12/23 07:35 AM.
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stranger
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OP
stranger
Joined: Nov 2023
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Great points. Thankfully the companions do not always suffer from the main character syndrome of DOS2. While DA:O is probably the best example of a great origin system it does not fit with the final version of Durge. Both BG1/2 and DA:O tell a zero to hero type of story while BG3 is more of an amnesiac hero like one like Planescape Torment. The best origin system for this type of story is that of the most underrated CRPG, Pillars of Eternity. In this case the background of your Durge changes based on your choices in visions or dreams similar to the noblestalk sequence. Here's how it would be implemented Example 1: Background: Noble
First dream is of your adoptive parents who depending on your choices were honorable, abusive or indifferent. In this case the parents were honorable who taught the young Durge to be noble and stuff until one day the Urge awakened and they ended up dead. Now this good Durge tried to resist but without the tadpole just couldn't and ended up in the Temple anyways. Example 2: Background: Acolyte
Dream of the temple with the same idea. Let's say you hated the temple and the false gods and couldn't wait to punish everyone and get out of there. Urge kicks in and you're pretty happy about the murder fest that follows and willingly go to the Temple. Now mix and match different backgrounds and current motivations and you get a different RP experience every single run. You could play the noble Durge who tried to resist in the past differently in the present and of course it will change the motivations of a certain woman who betrayed you. Unfortunately, everyone's Durge is exactly the same.
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old hand
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old hand
Joined: Nov 2023
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I always find it a bit odd when I read that Gale is supposed to have main-character-syndrom, even though he and Karlach are probably the chillest companions to handle. Shadowheart, Lae'zel, Astarion and even Wyll have their own dungeons dedicated to them with very dramatic cut scenes in the end, while with Karlach and Gale you just do what you'd normally do and chat with them for a bit.
That said, I really do love Gale's Origin and it has been my best experience with the game yet, I wrote a very long rant about why I love it so much in the Tav/Durge/Origin Character thread. ^^; I started a Durge, but I haven't gotten very far with her yet, because I still somehow felt less connected to the story than when hopping around with one of the Origin characters. I think that might be because the Durge does not really have anything besides the main plot either. Sure, they want their memories back and weird things happen around them but that does not really change your perception of the world in the same way as having a premade character does. Though, I assume, it is a very good compromise for people who like to create a custom characters.
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veteran
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veteran
Joined: Aug 2020
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I for one am very glad that a true blank slate custom character exists because I would hate to play as Durge and do not plan to (a also don't believe that we were originally going to be playing as Durge by default, or at least whatever initial plan they had that was similar to Durge, it was still different enough that it wouldn't resemble the Durge we have now, because I played EA from the start and the clues people point to as evidence that Tav was originally just Durge are incredibly weak and there was nothing resembling what we have now) and nor do I plan to play as any of the origin characters. I agree that making the companions playable was a mistake on Larian's part, one which contributes to what amounts to a bad, incoherent story. Great points. Thankfully the companions do not always suffer from the main character syndrome of DOS2. While DA:O is probably the best example of a great origin system it does not fit with the final version of Durge. Both BG1/2 and DA:O tell a zero to hero type of story while BG3 is more of an amnesiac hero like one like Planescape Torment. The best origin system for this type of story is that of the most underrated CRPG, Pillars of Eternity. In this case the background of your Durge changes based on your choices in visions or dreams similar to the noblestalk sequence. Here's how it would be implemented Example 1: Background: Noble
First dream is of your adoptive parents who depending on your choices were honorable, abusive or indifferent. In this case the parents were honorable who taught the young Durge to be noble and stuff until one day the Urge awakened and they ended up dead. Now this good Durge tried to resist but without the tadpole just couldn't and ended up in the Temple anyways. Example 2: Background: Acolyte
Dream of the temple with the same idea. Let's say you hated the temple and the false gods and couldn't wait to punish everyone and get out of there. Urge kicks in and you're pretty happy about the murder fest that follows and willingly go to the Temple. Now mix and match different backgrounds and current motivations and you get a different RP experience every single run. You could play the noble Durge who tried to resist in the past differently in the present and of course it will change the motivations of a certain woman who betrayed you. Unfortunately, everyone's Durge is exactly the same. As someone who loved PoE and think it and its sequel are some of the best crpgs I've ever played, I think your idea is entirely on the money and would be so much better than anything we've gotten in the game as-is.
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member
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member
Joined: Oct 2020
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I can fully agree with night lunatic. The story feels very convoluted to me and often gives me the feeling, that I am not the intended protagonist. It kinda remindes me of Dragon Age 2, you remember all the advertizing, that your choices will shape the world? Well, all the choices were done by companions, but not by my Hawke. Same here, everybody has so much better reason to be the protagonist, I'm just a weapon on legs trying to follow a moral path through the game.
My jobs seems to be mostly preventing others from doing stupid stuff like "bad Minthara don't go murder hobo, I better knock you out". Or "bad Shadowheart, don't kill that nice angel lady". Or "Gale, we talked about it, no nuking of cities, especially when I am standing next to you, I don't like being nuked, bad for my teint". And so on...
Guess I have to try the Dark Urge, looks like that really connects BG3 to BG1 and 2. But I don't think I have another playthrough in me and the lack of reactivity is also keeping me from it. At the beginning playing a Drow was amazing, starting act 2 nobody seems to notice. Maybe if there is a Definitive Edtion some day, but it would to change quite a lot, e.g. returning the game to its darker EA roots.
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member
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member
Joined: Oct 2023
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I don't think Tav/Durge really exists, how could they even be told canonically in further parts?
In DA there were always fixed heroes, the origins were also fixed, one gender, one race, class there are only 3, so it wasn't that difficult, in DAO we could choose from 2 genders and up to 2 races (mage origin), but BioWare clearly stated who was canonical. All DAO origins were canon, but only one managed to become a Warden, DAI was the same and DA2 only had one hero and both genders were canon according to BioWare.
I don't see that in BG3, except for the companions.
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addict
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addict
Joined: Nov 2023
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I think there's a couple of things at play...
Firstly, is Larian building off of DOS2. Which I think is a primary reason why we have "Origin Characters" whom also happen to be companions thus there's this awkward writing where you can experience these "Origin" paths without playing that character. Though, there's that weird thing where in the opening cutscene, you see Lae'zel get infected from your point of view... Then you're asked "Who are you?" and you can then pick to BE Lae'zel which makes literally 0 sense.
Secondly, would be them trying to recreate the feeling of D&D. Where campaigns are not written with characters in mind so players can explore their own character building. Which works for TT gaming, but falls flat with a video game. This "Let the players make the character" type of writing probably is exacerbated by the core D&D system regarding backgrounds. It's hard to write for a specific character when players can opt for such varied backgrounds like one Tav might be an Urchin. Another Tav might be a Noble. etc. Even if the choice of background serves little importance to the actual story (There are no background related dialogues or choices, it's simply a means of deciding what 2 skills you gain proficiency in)
Personally, I've never really cared much for "Origin Characters" I'd rather create my own character than use a pre-made one. Even more so if said pre-made characters can instead be companions, allowing for all that writing to go into a companion that I can interact with throughout the story (As opposed to rando "Hireling" type companions that are soulless and boring)
I'd much prefer writing to focus on having your own created character fit into the story. Even if some options are taken away (Like backgrounds, name, even race) since a partially customized character that fit into the narrative always feels better than a fully customized character that gets shoehorned into a story while having no relevance to it.
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stranger
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OP
stranger
Joined: Nov 2023
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I for one am very glad that a true blank slate custom character exists because I would hate to play as Durge and do not plan to (a also don't believe that we were originally going to be playing as Durge by default, or at least whatever initial plan they had that was similar to Durge, it was still different enough that it wouldn't resemble the Durge we have now, because I played EA from the start and the clues people point to as evidence that Tav was originally just Durge are incredibly weak and there was nothing resembling what we have now) and nor do I plan to play as any of the origin characters. I agree that making the companions playable was a mistake on Larian's part, one which contributes to what amounts to a bad, incoherent story. I see what you mean. I also dislike the fact that Durge and the rest of the origins don't feel like my character. One of the reasons I'm really high on POE1 and DAO is the fact that my Watcher and Warden do feel like my own characters but no DOS2/BG3 origin feels like that. Sadly, everyone's Durge is the same necrophiliac cannibal which aren't even traits of Bhaalspawn. I'm really not a fan of Bhaal or Myrkul depictions in this game. Just compare BG3 Myrkul(hurdur I look like a Souls boss with cliche villain dialogue) to the awesome MOTB kniving POS Myrkul. The origins are also not as interesting as other preset characters from other RPGs like The Nameless One from Planescape Torment. And you're right, there is no evidence that the original TavDurge is exactly same as the current Durge. The only evidence we have is that EA Tav had a dark urge that wasn't from the tadpole and that they were destined for conquest same as current Durge. My personal theory is that Larian separated them sometime in early access and opted for an "edgy" route for Durge (which isn't the best decision). Don't like that the Durge is a necrophiliac? Well, go play your custom character but you're going to miss out on half the story. I do think that the origin system does worsen the story a bit, especially the fact that there are so many "main bad guy" because of each origin, but I think the late rewrites are the biggest culprit. Like so many contradictions and 180s around Moonrise Towers. The Emperor, SH romance post Moonrise, Balthazar not knowing where the Nightsong (who was originally a very different character) is when he is the one draining her...etc. But that's another topic. All of the above are reasons why I'd like to see the original EA vision of the game. As someone who loved PoE and think it and its sequel are some of the best crpgs I've ever played, I think your idea is entirely on the money and would be so much better than anything we've gotten in the game as-is. POE1 is my favorite CRPG story wise. Unfortunately you have to do somethings in the right order for it to make sense but luckily the more you play it the better the story gets. PoE2 in it's current form is one of the best CRPGS gameplay wise but story wise it's kinda meh.
Last edited by night lunatic; 11/12/23 04:10 AM.
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veteran
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veteran
Joined: Dec 2020
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I don't think Tav/Durge really exists, how could they even be told canonically in further parts?
In DA there were always fixed heroes, the origins were also fixed, one gender, one race, class there are only 3, so it wasn't that difficult, in DAO we could choose from 2 genders and up to 2 races (mage origin), but BioWare clearly stated who was canonical. All DAO origins were canon, but only one managed to become a Warden, DAI was the same and DA2 only had one hero and both genders were canon according to BioWare.
I don't see that in BG3, except for the companions. You can always choose from two genders in DA and only DA2 fixes your hero as being human. There are three races, four in DAI. And BioWare sadly has a history of mak heros canon,which people tend to ignore of course, because it is stupid. As for the topic: it seems, the origins should just be normal companions, according to the numbers, over 90 % of player make a custom character anyway.
"We are all stories in the end. Just make it a good one."
Doctor Who
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member
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member
Joined: Oct 2023
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There was only one hero for each title, only the origins had everyone there, in DA2 it was just Hawke.
I think what BioWare is doing is good, it's the only way they can continue telling a story without any problems and include a hero. There isn't much choice in DA (race and class), but that's not a problem.
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