Larian Studios Forums Baldur's Gate III Baldur's Gate III - Suggestions & Feedback The D20 system does not work for a game like this

D20 system at face value is fine. It simply is a way to quantify a randomness and relative potency of modifiers.

The issue that can cause aggrivation tends to be the "Natural criticals" aspect of D&D. Where, irregardless of DC and modifiers and Nat 1 is always guaranteed to be a miss/fail and a Nat 20 is always guaranteed to be a crit/success. Which means that no matter what you do, you're always subject to a 5% chance to get screwed.

Which can be frustrating. Especially in extreme cases like you're rolling on a 5 DC skill check and have +16-20 modifier that should absolutely definitely guarantee you are way more capable than necessary and you still fail. Or an enemy that has -10 Str and a 1-4 penalty on attack rolls hitting your 25 AC character can still annihilate them with a critical hit.

Which, while it could be worse (There are TT iterations where for you to crit you needed to roll to confirm and critical misses could not only cause you to fail an action but also make it backfire like instead of shooting an enemy with your crossbow you hit your ally in the back of the head and kill them) it can still present a lot of frustrations, especially since it works to make you feel like your characters abilities are worthless when you build them to be super awesome at this one thing and they still fail anyway.

Of course, there inclusion is necessary, since it's a core part of D&D and since the game is based on D&D it has to include their rules. Larian has mentioned that there are some things that have felt restrictive to them in terms of game design because of being a D&D game and it's possible that the D20 system and its "Natural criticals" are one such thing.

So it'll be interesting to see how Larian's next game turns out, especially if its a new title not attached to D&D (Either Divinity 3 or a new IP) and see what aspects, if any, they bring from D&D to that game.

Apparently if you play as a halfling, they will automatically re-roll any 1s because they have the Lucky feat. Pretty sure that’s the case. Any character can get the Lucky feat as well, although I personally wouldn’t spend a feat on it. So you might want to try playing a halfling if it really bothers you. I like what Larian did to compensate for this (the 1s getting rolled), which is allowing for re-rolls based on the inspiration points that you have.

First what alternative do you propose? I mean you can step down to the D6 system but I don't see the difference especially if you have to reduce the modifiers to make it workable and it reduces your ability to tweak the system in more subtle ways.

Having a larger die pool gives you a wider range of modifiers you can use to tweak the players difficulty settings. In Honor mode the D20 lets them push the proficiency mods down a notch slightly upping he challenge level without going overboard. Further tweaks are still possible even - in case people want an even higher challenge.

Finally, I think for many gamers it's about finding ways to improve your chances and that the gamble is the fun. If you always hit it wouldn't be fun at all, disaster and disappointment are part of the twists of luck.

First what alternative do you propose? I mean you can step down to the D6 system but I don't see the difference especially if you have to reduce the modifiers to make it workable and it reduces your ability to tweak the system in more subtle ways.

Having a larger die pool gives you a wider range of modifiers you can use to tweak the players difficulty settings. In Honor mode the D20 lets them push the proficiency mods down a notch slightly upping he challenge level without going overboard. Further tweaks are still possible even - in case people want an even higher challenge.

Finally, I think for many gamers it's about finding ways to improve your chances and that the gamble is the fun. If you always hit it wouldn't be fun at all, disaster and disappointment are part of the twists of luck.

Im maybe Wrong becouse i dont Play Table Top in a Long time more then 12 years..
But something i remember was the Unecessary Rolls when yu already have enought proficiency on the Stuff yu trying to Do..
Like yu already have a 10 in Lock Pick but the game still want yu to Roll a Dice when the Lock is Less then 10 ?!
Weird..

this game Make yu roll sometimes when yu should not even need to.
and worst yu have more the 10 in the stuff meaning.. yu could never Fail.
But then Stupid RNG of this game Make yu roll a 1.. Ok game Ok.
Maybe im Wrong and my GM used this stuff becouse he was Lazy..
But i always felt that its the corret way.. Yu cannot Fail something yu have a Bunch of proficiency already..
Thats kinda Stupid when yu stop to Think.

(yu should only need to Roll when its More then yu already Have.. than thats ok.)
Like yu Need a 25 but yu only have 10 in proficiency
Then yu will Have to Roll baybe.. No argument in that.

BTW never use Karmic Dice.. That thing is Broken no Joke.
Yu will Have a More Fair Lucky in this Game Without it.

The original Runequest tabletop made use of a D100 skill based system, this would well for the computer game. The idea was you did not have "levels" or classes. As you used a skill you had a chance to make it better. (Very simplified explanation follows)

So lets say you have a 50% hit chance with your great sword. After enough use (as judged by the GM) you got to roll to see if you "skilled up". You would roll a D100 and if you rolled above your skill level you skilled up. This means lower levels where easier than higher levels to skill up and as you approached 100% your chances to level up slowed down drastically. In fact if I recall at 95% the skills where considered capped. this meant there was always a miss chance. I also seem to recall a "crit hit level" that even without any skill you automatically hit.

This system was used for the combat and skill system. Dangerous Journeys uses a similiar system, hence why I have suggested it be explored as a basis for a game engine.

Alternative 1 would indeed be to go down to D6, specifically multiple D6 (of course other dice are also possible). 2D6 are common like in Traveller and 3D6 would produce numbers close to a D20. The advantage here is that there is an actual probability curve where you can still have lucky or unlucky occurrences but normally you will roll average which is where your modifiers will matter the most.
Another alternative would be a dicepool system like in Shadowrun where you your skill increases the number of dice you roll and rolling a 5 or 6 counts as 1 success with some task requiring more successes. While this can get out of hand in PnP play with fistful of dice, on a PC this is not a problem.
Both systems provide much better results than a single D20.

Worth mentioning that in current 5e, natural crits and fails only apply specifically to attack rolls - critical lucky/unlucky moments in the heat of combat (and if your attacker has a -10 on their core ability when rolling the attack, then they are not going to do much damage to you anyway, even if they do crit and get a lucky shot in). They do not apply to Ability Checks or Saving Throws. Larian are the ones who decided to ignore this and apply crit success and failure to all dice rolls, so you can blame them for that, not the system.

In a proper implementation of the system, the character with a +14 to their ability check can never and will never, ever, fail a DC 15 check against that skill... and the demilich with a DC23 spell save can never and will never fail to dominate the crowd of peasants with no wisdom bonus.

I actually prefer a chance to always fail or the counter, always succeed.

The D20 system is indeed awful, and the reason why I don't at all care for D&D mechanics. It relies far too much on random chance at the expense of the decisions and choices the player makes in creating and roleplaying their character. That said, the gawdawful D20 system of D&D is still like a million times superior to Larian's Divinity games systems and mechanics. Those systems are utterly simplistic, superficial, and trivial.

Well the entire DnD system is actually very broken. From the D20, to class systems, the AC system is a mess and so on....

It's really not, honestly. The rolling method is enjoyable, the class system is well set-out, the AC vs Saves balance could use some adjustment but is fundamentally both a good and intuitive system, and so on... It's really very good.

Make a Halfling Diviner with the Lucky Feat and take him to the Casino. See what happens.

I completely understand the frustration. Bg3 is neither hardcore D&D RPG nor hardcore action RPG nor hardcore strategic RPG.

I believe the DOS2 system is just so much fast and fun. Its a great mix of actionRPG/Strategy. It has balance issues, items issues etc..but its an addicting FAST system.

The problem with BG3 is that...Larian is trying to please everyone. I think since they went the D&D route, they should of done it 100% pure D&D.
They took this weird, approach on making the game 80% d&D and mixed in DOS2 easy of use, quality of life, beginner friendly approach...but to THESE PEOPLE the game is STILL hardcore difficult and weird. While for D&D people the game is LACKING difficulty and strategy.

How do you fix all of this? MORE CUSTOMIZABLE OPTIONS. Make the game 100% strategic D&D and scale it/dumb it down with tons of quality of life options for casual gamers.
-Want your spells reset after combat? Fine make it an option.
-What to hide just your minimap? Make it an option.
-Want original D&D creature stats and abilities? >option.
-Want base 75% success on die rolls?> option.

Larian Gameplay options are the most lacking aspect of all their RPGs. And since this IS "D&D" , its even more jarring.

Haven't been able to load these forums up for a month now, get back and first thread is a necro'd one. Guessing I didn't miss much lol.