I may be in the minority on this, but I just sort of intuitively disliked Wyll at first.
I hated his introduction. The Errol Flynn pose and cringy one liner immediately made me think that he was an arrogant clown. Following on that, all of the dialog assumed that I had heard of the Blade of Frontiers before and that I therefore must be in awe of his gallantry, when the fact is that I initially distrusted him and had little to no idea of his actual deeds.
My suggestion (which may not be possible given that the voice work is already complete): Provide a dialogue option to ask "Who or what is the Blade of Frontiers?". An alternative would be an easy Baldurian knowledge check with narration that explains who Wyll is and what the Blade of Frontiers is known for.
I find it a bit sad, that in that IGN interview the interviewer, asked for his favourite Wyll scene, brought up the Maryzora sex scene - that is not even a Wyll scene.
Ouch, that really brings things to light that they somehow ended up finding Mizora more interesting than Wyll and gave up on his character development in favour of her.
I find it a bit sad, that in that IGN interview the interviewer, asked for his favourite Wyll scene, brought up the Maryzora sex scene - that is not even a Wyll scene.
Ouch, that really brings things to light that they somehow ended up finding Mizora more interesting than Wyll and gave up on his character development in favour of her.
I mean, why is she on the banner here, but not Karlach for example? I hate Maryzora
"We are all stories in the end. Just make it a good one."
Another thing that would be nice for Wyll would be if you could actually plan with him to join Karlach in Avernus instead of it being a sudden thing at the end of the game.
Another thing that would be nice for Wyll would be if you could actually plan with him to join Karlach in Avernus instead of it being a sudden thing at the end of the game.
Yes, so much! Building that bond with Wyll and Karlach together would be great. There's a good hint of what could have been in the epilogue party when you get to talk to them.
I agree that "Maryzora" is there so players can have sex with "sexy demon kitten" without consequences. Unlike Raphael's clone (Harleep or something) who either kills you or takes something in the deal. That too is part of why I say Mizora is a Mary Sue terribly written. If she had seduced Wyll to gain his trust and used her sexuality as a way to manipulate the player character to steal the evidence of her breaking the pact or to gain something from him, then by all means, put the sex there. Or if sex with Mizora was the result of winning the trial and making HER a slave that has to please you, then OK, too. A devil can be summoned and bound into service if you learn his/her true name. But the way it is done is lazy. So SHE says that YOU have been looking at her with desire. Which is, basically her writing deciding for your character AGAIN that you MUST find her attractive. Never mind that some people aren't attracted to women or might even be ace. And even among people attracted to women, there would be people who don't find her attractive because, meh, she is boring (surprise, surprise). Yet, you can't call her delusional or turn her down with the same level of rudeness that you can use with Halsin or other characters. Why is that? Because Maryzora. They need to *sell* the idea that she is *hot* when she is bland.
And the fact that your romanced companions let you have sex with her? Another Maryzora moment. Sure, they didn't want to punish the character for having sex with Maryzora when that is her only selling point. But let's be real, for monogamous characters, having sex with Maryzora should mean breaking up. And with Wyll, even if you aren't romancing him, he stops being your friend. Because you have betrayed him. The lack of reaction here is another reason why Wyll's character doesn't work.
Maryzora should be re-writen by someone who doesn't get a fuck about her sexuality. Or that doesn't care if she loses to the player character. Then maybe we would get a decent devil lawyer.
For a game that beats you over the head about how you should never trust a devil, choosing to do anything with Mizora surprisingly brings about no sort of actual consequence of note to the player. Even with Harleep you're cursed wetting your pants at random moments for all eternity. Sleeping with Mizora...you may have damned some souls(???) Maaaaybe a few of your companions will break up with you, but not because of anything Mizora did but because you cheated on them, like no duh. She feels like she's there for people who were too scared to fully commit to an evil Minthara route. It's pretty lame.
Originally Posted by fylimar
I find it a bit sad, that in that IGN interview the interviewer, asked for his favourite Wyll scene, brought up the Maryzora sex scene - that is not even a Wyll scene.
Yeah, that interview, no offense to the interviewer, kinda sucked, lol. Sort of wished they had a different interviewer asking questions. They chatted for a while about Astarion(not surprising), and for all the other characters it was pretty short.
I do think it's interesting that Swen felt they might've did "too much" with Wyll, when I think most people would argue that they didn't do enough. That Wyll spends maybe way too much time waiting for his turn to speak, what with Karlach, Mizora, his father and what not having a role in his story but there not being enough time dedicated solely to Wyll himself. Even deciding the fate of his soul you have to do the speaking for him.
Sven mentions that they lost a bit of room for all the stories they wanted to tell with him, and I wish the interviewer at least asked what those stories may have been or something. Or at the very least how different EA Wyll would've been from what we got.
TBH I thought the interviewer was good. It was the CEO who sucked.
The interviewer understood that there are only two substantive endings to the game while the CEO insisted that the interviewer acknowledge how much work went into the cosmetic differences. (is Wyll going to the hells as Mizorra's lackey or is going to Hells on his own? Is he going to the hells with a companion or not?)
Which is the kind of behavior you would expect from some used to being in charge. "No offense but I'm going to have the final word - there are thousands of endings. Next question"
Nothing about the blindingly obvious fact that someone needs to become mind flayer and you have only have flavors of the same railroaded choice.
For a game that beats you over the head about how you should never trust a devil, choosing to do anything with Mizora surprisingly brings about no sort of actual consequence of note to the player. Even with Harleep you're cursed wetting your pants at random moments for all eternity. Sleeping with Mizora...you may have damned some souls(???) Maaaaybe a few of your companions will break up with you, but not because of anything Mizora did but because you cheated on them, like no duh. She feels like she's there for people who were too scared to fully commit to an evil Minthara route. It's pretty lame.
Yeah, that interview, no offense to the interviewer, kinda sucked, lol. Sort of wished they had a different interviewer asking questions. They chatted for a while about Astarion(not surprising), and for all the other characters it was pretty short.
I do think it's interesting that Swen felt they might've did "too much" with Wyll, when I think most people would argue that they didn't do enough. That Wyll spends maybe way too much time waiting for his turn to speak, what with Karlach, Mizora, his father and what not having a role in his story but there not being enough time dedicated solely to Wyll himself. Even deciding the fate of his soul you have to do the speaking for him.
Sven mentions that they lost a bit of room for all the stories they wanted to tell with him, and I wish the interviewer at least asked what those stories may have been or something. Or at the very least how different EA Wyll would've been from what we got.
Yeah, compared to what Astarion or Shadowheart for example got - or even Lae'zel, Wyll doesn't have too much. He could do with some moments like SHadowheart had with her parents or Astarion after defeating Cazador.
"We are all stories in the end. Just make it a good one."
One thing that doesn't make sense to me is how Wyll keeps calling himself a hero and can agree to bind himself to Maryzora forever for his father to be spared (who is just a single dude who doesn't even appreciate him), yet at the end when a hero is actually needed to save the ENTIRE WORLD he doesn't step up and offer himself. Why is that? I wonder.
Way late to most of this discussion but I generally feel like EA Wyll was in a much better place. Everything made more sense, and the one thing that didn't was how and why Mizora got captured by goblins. The way they changed her circumstance was an improvement, but the way she and Wyll lost so much of their shared backstory is a damn shame. I get people complained a lot because he was an arrogant nepo baby but that's just literally who he is even now. If the price of toning him down like Shadowheart's barbs got toned down was all that writing, that's just... a staggering amount to cut and I'm still kinda shocked they decided to go so hard on it.
One thing that doesn't make sense to me is how Wyll keeps calling himself a hero and can agree to bind himself to Maryzora forever for his father to be spared (who is just a single dude who doesn't even appreciate him), yet at the end when a hero is actually needed to save the ENTIRE WORLD he doesn't step up and offer himself. Why is that? I wonder.
Because Karlach has to be special it would have made sense for a hero and making sense wasn't a priority for lead writers.
One thing that doesn't make sense to me is how Wyll keeps calling himself a hero and can agree to bind himself to Maryzora forever for his father to be spared (who is just a single dude who doesn't even appreciate him), yet at the end when a hero is actually needed to save the ENTIRE WORLD he doesn't step up and offer himself. Why is that? I wonder.
For the same reason why Lae'zel doesn't offer herself instead of Orpheus (if you side with him), even though she spent the entire playthrough lecturing my character how important he is. Or why Gale doesn't offer, even though he is ready to detonate the orb. Tbh, my impression was that they only made Karlach do it, so they could have this ''surprise! her condition can be cured!" plot twist.
There's a difference. Becoming a Mindflayer means loosing your soul. Gale has a means to make sure nobody has to loose their soul and the crown is destroyed for good by using the orb, why should he offer the far worse solution? In Karlach's case it's also not a cure, it's her desperation. She clings to her life so badly at this point that she will do anything to remain in Faerun even if it isn't really her any longer - though she might not really understand the issue, her Int isn't really up there. In Wyll's case it would make sense, especially if he has already forsaken his soul to Mizora. That would be an actually good twist to get out of a devil's contract.
But I just realised something. With all the talk about the interview, I also thought about which is my favourite scene with Wyll. I'd say, it's when you recruit Karlach first and he then visits your camp to hunt her down. The scene has some really nice drama and tension to it .... but it is also not really about him either.
There's a difference. Becoming a Mindflayer means loosing your soul. Gale has a means to make sure nobody has to loose their soul and the crown is destroyed for good by using the orb, why should he offer the far worse solution? In Karlach's case it's also not a cure, it's her desperation. She clings to her life so badly at this point that she will do anything to remain in Faerun even if it isn't really her any longer - though she might not really understand the issue, her Int isn't really up there. In Wyll's case it would make sense, especially if he has already forsaken his soul to Mizora. That would be an actually good twist to get out of a devil's contract.
Unless Larian rewrote this part of the story in patch 5 what you posted about Karlach makes no sense. The way it played out in my game, Karlach doesn't know (or anyone in the party at this point, that is player's metagaming knowledge) that the mindflayer transformation will "fix" the infernal engine. She offers, because she is dying and feels that way no one else needs to sacrifice themselves. That is the opposite of clinging to life at any cost.
That anyone transforming loses their soul is a problem in itself, because you can learn in the game (unless Larian rewrote that part of the story) that the soul can be restored through divine intervention - but only if you play as Gale. Mystra will offer if you choose as Gale to turn into mindflayer. Withers however will not mention it, and there is no other way of the player learning that, so that they could e.g. use the high level cleric ability.
There's a difference. Becoming a Mindflayer means loosing your soul. Gale has a means to make sure nobody has to loose their soul and the crown is destroyed for good by using the orb, why should he offer the far worse solution? In Karlach's case it's also not a cure, it's her desperation. She clings to her life so badly at this point that she will do anything to remain in Faerun even if it isn't really her any longer - though she might not really understand the issue, her Int isn't really up there. In Wyll's case it would make sense, especially if he has already forsaken his soul to Mizora. That would be an actually good twist to get out of a devil's contract.
But I just realised something. With all the talk about the interview, I also thought about which is my favourite scene with Wyll. I'd say, it's when you recruit Karlach first and he then visits your camp to hunt her down. The scene has some really nice drama and tension to it .... but it is also not really about him either.
Wyll coming to your camp, when you recruit Karlach first, was a great scene. I would also say,apart from Lae'zel he has the best introduction scene.
I did let Karlach become a mindflayer in my first playthrough, because I thought, it was supposed to be that way. She said, she is dying anyway and this way, she can do something good, meaning, no one else has to change, before she dies. So she didn't know, that she would survive.
I honestly like the ending with Wyll and Karlach going to Avernus a lot. I wish, we could see, what will happen.
"We are all stories in the end. Just make it a good one."
One thing that doesn't make sense to me is how Wyll keeps calling himself a hero and can agree to bind himself to Maryzora forever for his father to be spared (who is just a single dude who doesn't even appreciate him), yet at the end when a hero is actually needed to save the ENTIRE WORLD he doesn't step up and offer himself. Why is that? I wonder.
For the same reason why Lae'zel doesn't offer herself instead of Orpheus (if you side with him), even though she spent the entire playthrough lecturing my character how important he is. Or why Gale doesn't offer, even though he is ready to detonate the orb. Tbh, my impression was that they only made Karlach do it, so they could have this ''surprise! her condition can be cured!" plot twist.
Gale actually does say "There is still my option with the orb!" but the game does not allow you to act on it unless you play as Gale. You are still supposed to turn someone into a mind flayer. I thought Karlach option was more for the sake of those who call BS on the binary choice. Funny enough (don't know if it was fixed or not) should you choose Karlach, the game treats it as Tav's sacrifice. Everyone comments on how brave Tav is to turn into a monster.
There's a difference. Becoming a Mindflayer means loosing your soul. Gale has a means to make sure nobody has to loose their soul and the crown is destroyed for good by using the orb, why should he offer the far worse solution?
He says that entering the pact with Maryzora/selling himself was his proudest moment. If selling his soul for the Sword Coast, becoming a devil for Karlach and becoming Maryzora's eternal slave for his dad's life is acceptable to him, than saving the whole world should be the accomplishment of his life. If he's such a self-sacrificing hero that he claims to be then he should want Gale to survive, just as Gale wants Tav and the others to survive. What the game actually shows us is that Gale is more heroic than the self-proclaimed hero.
Originally Posted by t1mekill3r
Because Karlach has to be special it would have made sense for a hero and making sense wasn't a priority for lead writers.
Of course, Karlach and the game's forced sympathy for her. I feel more sympathy for the guy who was trapped for a millenium and was used while being paralysed than for her with that mere decade or so with Zariel where she couldn't get jiggy with anyone.
Originally Posted by Amirit
Gale actually does say "There is still my option with the orb!" but the game does not allow you to act on it unless you play as Gale. You are still supposed to turn someone into a mind flayer.
You can avoid the tentactes by doing specific things, as shown here, but your chara glitches out for a sec and appears as a MF:
Unless Larian rewrote this part of the story in patch 5 what you posted about Karlach makes no sense. The way it played out in my game, Karlach doesn't know (or anyone in the party at this point, that is player's metagaming knowledge) that the mindflayer transformation will "fix" the infernal engine. She offers, because she is dying and feels that way no one else needs to sacrifice themselves. That is the opposite of clinging to life at any cost.
That anyone transforming loses their soul is a problem in itself, because you can learn in the game (unless Larian rewrote that part of the story) that the soul can be restored through divine intervention - but only if you play as Gale. Mystra will offer if you choose as Gale to turn into mindflayer. Withers however will not mention it, and there is no other way of the player learning that, so that they could e.g. use the high level cleric ability.
You are right about the first part. I forgot that you only learn the bit about Karlach's engine after she takes the tadpole. The same is true for Gale however since - unless I have missed something - you only learn that Mystra can restore his soul once you actually show up as a mindflayer in his origin to return the crown to her.
Originally Posted by Ametris
What the game actually shows us is that Gale is more heroic than the self-proclaimed hero.
Because Gale is awesome! And while I never intend to blow him up (other than using the cantrip instead of F8) I really like how almost casually he offs the brain.
And I do like the Avernus ending too, I just feel mounting resentment towards Karlach. ^^
And I do like the Avernus ending too, I just feel mounting resentment towards Karlach. ^^
This might be a bit controversial since so many people like Karlach, but I feel like her late addition to the game contributed to these unfinished plot points (there are a myriad of other reasons too). I love her as a character, she’s sweet and fun and her actor is insanely talented. They might’ve put most of their resources into including her in the story but honestly that effort could’ve went to making sure the story actually made sense first. Even her own story is suffering as a result of adding more characters when you have a list of unfinished plots. The focus was on the wrong things.
(Also kinda bitter about the attention to detail she got as a late addition, but in particular regarding her condition when it comes to romance scenes with other tavs/companions. What applies to Karlach before she got her engine cooled could apply to Gale too with his orb. In his origin if you’re going to get freaky with someone before Elminster, you can do so without consequence but when you romance him he says he can’t do anything due to his orb issue. It’s inconsistent with his story. Her interactions are certainly unique and I wish other characters got the same treatment)
But this thread isn’t for Karlach, it’s for Wyll. However those 2 are synonymous with each other and you can’t mention one without the other, which is another problem that introducing her brought on for Wyll’s story. He can’t just be Wyll, he has to have someone else in the story in order to make him relevant.
I feel more sympathy for the guy who was trapped for a millenium and was used while being paralysed than for her with that mere decade or so with Zariel where she couldn't get jiggy with anyone.