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enthusiast
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enthusiast
Joined: Oct 2023
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I also read the IGN article on how karlachs quest was ''never cut'', pretty infuriating to read not gonna lie. Larian doesnt seem to think karlachs questline is unfinished, maybe for PR reasons. That or they genuinely find her linear storyline with a unavoidable tragic ending to be good, despite all the other origin characters getting much more fulfilling questlines and satisfying conclusions. Sure, the avernus ending cutscene and the new epilogue give more hope to the avernus ending, and a hint that shes gonna get fixed and escape hell, but boy would i have loved to PLAY that story in the actual game larian!
Hell, larian stated that they were surprised people wanted a longer epilogue and humbly admitted they made a mistake in not creating that for the game, promising to add a proper epilogue later (which they now have). The fact that they dont seem to show a similar sentiment to karlachs story makes me fear theyre never gonna do any changes to her quest and just leave her avernus quest open ended. It sucks ass
It also doesnt help that karlach has much less dialogue in the epilogue than most other companions, especially if you accompanied her to avernus, so if this really is the last update to karlachs story that just makes this entire situation even worse. It would be so annoying if karlachs story ends with a piece of paper sitting on a table that says "Gone to the forge - mama k and tav " I'm glad we've got what we have but she has been shafted so hard by larian. If they really choose to leave her as is and think a linear, inflexible, and unmoving storyline for such a flexible game with so many endings is fine I cant really look at act 3 the same.
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journeyman
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journeyman
Joined: Sep 2023
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After weeks of barely being able to find this place functioning and able to log in, I'm popping in to say that the IGN article really left a bad taste in my mouth. So it's even WORSE than we thought? That the stuff wasn't even cut, it was never there to begin with. The fact that she was just supposed to up and burn or leave to hell and that's all, as the main idea from the start??? How fucking terrible. You say that you create and adjust the character because of EA complaints about edgelord party, add a puppydog who has by far the harshest backstory of all in terms of trauma and physical pain, who did nothing to deserve to be sold, mutilated and enslaved, only to go "anyway she's a viking she wants to go out with a bang".
Bitch no, she if anyone deserves a good, positive ending. Adding breadcrumbs that add hope to her Avernus story is a band-aid on a still-leaking wound. A wound that never really heals for me and I just can't stand it. They affirmed that yes, hope was important. And that's what we see with Hope in House of Hope - that despite the worst circumstances, hope is alive and can even in most dire moments and against all the odds prevail.
So no, that line about "we always saw her at the dock, burning up and dying" triggered me Big Time. Act 3 is, with no cut content, even worse of a situation than us thinking it was just cut. It was made to be so? God the plotholes (read: from a DnD campaign standpoint and compared to the rest of the game)...
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enthusiast
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enthusiast
Joined: Aug 2023
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Yeah, I really wanna stay positivr for the company on general cause theyve aced so many other things in bg3 and other projects but that article was just like...wow i dont wanna use the term *tone deaf* caise im sure they had their reasons but its hard to see WHAT those reasons were. Its literally flys in thw face of the whole concept of their own game desogn of ,*player choice* id wish they just admitted it was a mistake on their part. But if thats a solid story element they wanna keep. Id be hard oressed to buy their next game at full price. Now if they DO fix karlachs engine in DE or dlc due to the outcry ill change my tune. But if this is it for her. Then that is just to much of a glaring inconsistency for me narrative wise
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apprentice
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apprentice
Joined: Sep 2023
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I have to agree about the article leaving a bad taste. Its also why I'm kind of giving up hope right now - I don't expect them to make any major additions to the base game. Maybe there will be a DLC, since the epilogues hint at it, but even then I just don't expect much anymore.
I have made my peace with the epilogues by now however. They're still miles better than what we had before patch 5. I take that over their original "plans" from the IGN interview.
The only benefit of a doubt I can give them here is the fact that she was a late addition, and the engine plotline was added very late in her development. So it might be more of a "well, we never did any content that was cut simply because we didn't have enough time to properly flesh out the alternatives". Although that just makes me think they should've pushed the game further back, instead of giving us an Act III that is very unpolished in a lot of aspects, and the weakest part of the game. It feels like Act I and II were done with a lot of care for major inconsistencies and plotholes, and III just was "lets wrap this up quickly".
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enthusiast
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enthusiast
Joined: Oct 2023
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After weeks of barely being able to find this place functioning and able to log in, I'm popping in to say that the IGN article really left a bad taste in my mouth. So it's even WORSE than we thought? That the stuff wasn't even cut, it was never there to begin with. The fact that she was just supposed to up and burn or leave to hell and that's all, as the main idea from the start??? How fucking terrible. You say that you create and adjust the character because of EA complaints about edgelord party, add a puppydog who has by far the harshest backstory of all in terms of trauma and physical pain, who did nothing to deserve to be sold, mutilated and enslaved, only to go "anyway she's a viking she wants to go out with a bang".
Bitch no, she if anyone deserves a good, positive ending. Adding breadcrumbs that add hope to her Avernus story is a band-aid on a still-leaking wound. A wound that never really heals for me and I just can't stand it. They affirmed that yes, hope was important. And that's what we see with Hope in House of Hope - that despite the worst circumstances, hope is alive and can even in most dire moments and against all the odds prevail.
So no, that line about "we always saw her at the dock, burning up and dying" triggered me Big Time. Act 3 is, with no cut content, even worse of a situation than us thinking it was just cut. It was made to be so? God the plotholes (read: from a DnD campaign standpoint and compared to the rest of the game)... Preach it. This is so fucking true and her story being plan ed as a hopeless story that was designed to bait the player into emotional trauma is vile. I cannot describe how annoying this and to find out there was 0 planned good ending is just depressing. It really makes the whole game look like some grim dark dnd instead of an open ended dnd style fantasy adventure. I really hope they're just saying nothing was planned and the dlc is an addition to her dtory and a final cure for her engine. She deserved none of what happened and all the plot holes, bread crumbs, and pointless trauma baiting for such a sweet red cinnamon roll. It has really dampened my enthusiasm for the game hearing this.
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old hand
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old hand
Joined: Sep 2023
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Wait, link to the article?
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enthusiast
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enthusiast
Joined: Oct 2023
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Yeah, I really wanna stay positivr for the company on general cause theyve aced so many other things in bg3 and other projects but that article was just like...wow i dont wanna use the term *tone deaf* caise im sure they had their reasons but its hard to see WHAT those reasons were. Its literally flys in thw face of the whole concept of their own game desogn of ,*player choice* id wish they just admitted it was a mistake on their part. But if thats a solid story element they wanna keep. Id be hard oressed to buy their next game at full price. Now if they DO fix karlachs engine in DE or dlc due to the outcry ill change my tune. But if this is it for her. Then that is just to much of a glaring inconsistency for me narrative wise This is exactly the problem the whole game boasts about choice and player impact on the stories narrative only to hand you the sweet innocent slave soldier searching for freedom and rips her away saying yup she's gonna die nothing you can do do don't try it you might as well sell that infernal iron it won't save her anyway. I didn't think larian would be so utterly tone deaf to this situation that flies in the face of the games tone.
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apprentice
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apprentice
Joined: Sep 2023
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Wait, link to the article? On a more positive note, since I didn't see anyone mention it yet, but Samantha has been longlisted at the BAFTAs for her role as Karlach. I'm sorry if I missed it (I tried to catch up on things after the week of not being able to access this at all, the server still seems to be struggling) If I had a vote, she'd get it, and hopefully she�ll be among those on the final list. Her performance definitely is a big reason why this character matters so much to me. She got me to feel a lot and that post-gortash scene is just� I didn�t expect them to stab me like that. It�s been a long time since a scene has hit me that hard. Kudos to her for that delivery especially It�s also why I am okay with the epilogue � there is still hope, not everything is lost. Sure I�d love to solve things actively in the game, but at least the future is still there, anything is still possible. Overall, the game is not perfect, but for me the good still outweighs the bad by a lot.
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old hand
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old hand
Joined: Sep 2023
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Okay, I found the article. They seem flippant and casual in discussing Karlach�s endings, which isn�t considerate of her fans. But after playing the game for as many hours as I have, I�m not surprised at this point that they intended for her ending to either be turning into a mindflayer or exploding to death.
Most of the companions are incredibly emotionally traumatized and have DEEPLY unsettling stories. And I don�t think that any of them has a strictly happy ending, and that that was by design. When I completed Shadowheart�s quest, for example, I was EXTREMELY disturbed by everything that I learned, down to the awful details. It left me feeling a bit shocked for the rest of the day. Everyone�s story is disturbing and can lead you into vague feelings of traumatization by association if you get invested enough in the character. With Karlach, same deal, just with a more underdeveloped storyline.
I do absolutely adore this game and I spend a lot of time playing it. But it would be difficult to deny that it�s emotionally manipulative at times. Just consider how so many people loved Alfira, and wanted her as a bard companion. And then they created that scene where she shows up, asking to be your companion, and the next morning you find her brutally murdered by yourself as Dark Urge, if you�re playing as the Dark Urge. So they give you a little taste of hope in that case, and then jerk it away for shock value.
Perhaps in the same way, they get you so attached to Karlach and her plight, just to jerk hope away for shock value. It reminds me of what maybe Astarion says about the nature of mental/emotional torture? You leave them feeling like there�s hope up until the very last minute. Then yank it away. I think that�s what he said his master Cazador had the tendency to do.
Not to say that the writers are intentionally inflicting emotional torment or something, LOL. I�m not quite that dramatic! But the idea IS in the game, that you dangle hope for as long as possible, and then jerk it away as a form of emotional manipulation exercised by one of the antagonists.
It�s actually a really dark game in many ways. (DOS2, their previous game, was very dark as well, although I did think that several of the protagonists had unambiguously good endings.) And there actually are a very limited range of endings, to be honest. I think that the flexibility of the endings was greatly exaggerated. Which, I�m okay with, because it is what it is. It�s good that they made an epilogue to smooth the bitterness over of so many of the companions� stories.
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journeyman
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journeyman
Joined: Aug 2023
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I really wanted to finish the game, but as things stand (and probably will stand, based on that article), Act 2 will always be my terminus. It's a shame.
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enthusiast
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enthusiast
Joined: Oct 2023
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I really wanted to finish the game, but as things stand (and probably will stand, based on that article), Act 2 will always be my terminus. It's a shame. I feel ya its really unfortunate that they never got around to act 3 /s
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enthusiast
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enthusiast
Joined: Oct 2023
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Okay, I found the article. They seem flippant and casual in discussing Karlach�s endings, which isn�t considerate of her fans. But after playing the game for as many hours as I have, I�m not surprised at this point that they intended for her ending to either be turning into a mindflayer or exploding to death.
Most of the companions are incredibly emotionally traumatized and have DEEPLY unsettling stories. And I don�t think that any of them has a strictly happy ending, and that that was by design. When I completed Shadowheart�s quest, for example, I was EXTREMELY disturbed by everything that I learned, down to the awful details. It left me feeling a bit shocked for the rest of the day. Everyone�s story is disturbing and can lead you into vague feelings of traumatization by association if you get invested enough in the character. With Karlach, same deal, just with a more underdeveloped storyline.
I do absolutely adore this game and I spend a lot of time playing it. But it would be difficult to deny that it�s emotionally manipulative at times. Just consider how so many people loved Alfira, and wanted her as a bard companion. And then they created that scene where she shows up, asking to be your companion, and the next morning you find her brutally murdered by yourself as Dark Urge, if you�re playing as the Dark Urge. So they give you a little taste of hope in that case, and then jerk it away for shock value.
Perhaps in the same way, they get you so attached to Karlach and her plight, just to jerk hope away for shock value. It reminds me of what maybe Astarion says about the nature of mental/emotional torture? You leave them feeling like there�s hope up until the very last minute. Then yank it away. I think that�s what he said his master Cazador had the tendency to do.
Not to say that the writers are intentionally inflicting emotional torment or something, LOL. I�m not quite that dramatic! But the idea IS in the game, that you dangle hope for as long as possible, and then jerk it away as a form of emotional manipulation exercised by one of the antagonists.
It�s actually a really dark game in many ways. (DOS2, their previous game, was very dark as well, although I did think that several of the protagonists had unambiguously good endings.) And there actually are a very limited range of endings, to be honest. I think that the flexibility of the endings was greatly exaggerated. Which, I�m okay with, because it is what it is. It�s good that they made an epilogue to smooth the bitterness over of so many of the companions� stories. Maybe you're right. I thought this was a fantasy adventure type game. Something really take a break from the world with. I was unaware larian was intending for the game to be grimdark and I'll sit out the next few games. Worlds shifty enough I don't need my little free time riddled with trauma baiting devs. Still hoping an avernus dlc is in the works though. And I'll say the other origins don't get pure good endings but they get way better endings. Namely being they all get to live which is nice. They aren't free from whats happened but they continue on and live and get to be happy. Karlach doesn't get that she's told by larian to die on the dock or lose your soul as a mindlfayer. It's to annoying
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enthusiast
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enthusiast
Joined: Oct 2023
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Okay, I found the article. They seem flippant and casual in discussing Karlach�s endings, which isn�t considerate of her fans. But after playing the game for as many hours as I have, I�m not surprised at this point that they intended for her ending to either be turning into a mindflayer or exploding to death.
Most of the companions are incredibly emotionally traumatized and have DEEPLY unsettling stories. And I don�t think that any of them has a strictly happy ending, and that that was by design. When I completed Shadowheart�s quest, for example, I was EXTREMELY disturbed by everything that I learned, down to the awful details. It left me feeling a bit shocked for the rest of the day. Everyone�s story is disturbing and can lead you into vague feelings of traumatization by association if you get invested enough in the character. With Karlach, same deal, just with a more underdeveloped storyline.
I do absolutely adore this game and I spend a lot of time playing it. But it would be difficult to deny that it�s emotionally manipulative at times. Just consider how so many people loved Alfira, and wanted her as a bard companion. And then they created that scene where she shows up, asking to be your companion, and the next morning you find her brutally murdered by yourself as Dark Urge, if you�re playing as the Dark Urge. So they give you a little taste of hope in that case, and then jerk it away for shock value.
Perhaps in the same way, they get you so attached to Karlach and her plight, just to jerk hope away for shock value. It reminds me of what maybe Astarion says about the nature of mental/emotional torture? You leave them feeling like there�s hope up until the very last minute. Then yank it away. I think that�s what he said his master Cazador had the tendency to do.
Not to say that the writers are intentionally inflicting emotional torment or something, LOL. I�m not quite that dramatic! But the idea IS in the game, that you dangle hope for as long as possible, and then jerk it away as a form of emotional manipulation exercised by one of the antagonists.
It�s actually a really dark game in many ways. (DOS2, their previous game, was very dark as well, although I did think that several of the protagonists had unambiguously good endings.) And there actually are a very limited range of endings, to be honest. I think that the flexibility of the endings was greatly exaggerated. Which, I�m okay with, because it is what it is. It�s good that they made an epilogue to smooth the bitterness over of so many of the companions� stories. Maybe you're right. I thought this was a fantasy adventure type game. Something really take a break from the world with. I was unaware larian was intending for the game to be grimdark and I'll sit out the next few games. Worlds shifty enough I don't need my little free time riddled with trauma baiting devs. Still hoping an avernus dlc is in the works though. And I'll say the other origins don't get pure good endings but they get way better endings. Namely being they all get to live which is nice. They aren't free from whats happened but they continue on and live and get to be happy. Karlach doesn't get that she's told by larian to die on the dock or lose your soul as a mindlfayer. It's to annoying
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enthusiast
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enthusiast
Joined: Aug 2023
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Yeah, will probably put the game down for the forseeable future now until a patch adds something to jer or a DLC is confirmed to have SOMEWAY to fix her even if its just a side mission.
Which jist honestly reaaallly sucks. Causr theres still so much in the game i havnt exoeriemced yet and would love to, but the karlach issue is just to glaring for me. And that article just killed any desire I got to continue another playthrough
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enthusiast
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enthusiast
Joined: Oct 2023
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Yeah, will probably put the game down for the forseeable future now until a patch adds something to jer or a DLC is confirmed to have SOMEWAY to fix her even if its just a side mission.
Which jist honestly reaaallly sucks. Causr theres still so much in the game i havnt exoeriemced yet and would love to, but the karlach issue is just to glaring for me. And that article just killed any desire I got to continue another playthrough I'll still finish my playthroughs but that article was like a gut punch I can't believe her whole story was isnt she so nice and sweet? And she's dead hope you didn't get too attached. It doesnt make any sense to have every other companion live after act 3 with relatively good endings while karlach is told to sell your soul, die, or go to hell. It's so tone deaf from what the rest of the game is trying to be and completely undermines the whole house of hope thing. Which should be an option to just stay at since ya know it's nice, and won't kill karlach just for existing.
Last edited by mattmcrich; 16/12/23 02:45 AM.
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veteran
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veteran
Joined: Aug 2020
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The only benefit of a doubt I can give them here is the fact that she was a late addition, and the engine plotline was added very late in her development. So it might be more of a "well, we never did any content that was cut simply because we didn't have enough time to properly flesh out the alternatives". Although that just makes me think they should've pushed the game further back, instead of giving us an Act III that is very unpolished in a lot of aspects, and the weakest part of the game. It feels like Act I and II were done with a lot of care for major inconsistencies and plotholes, and III just was "lets wrap this up quickly". The thing is though, that she's not really a late addition. She's been in the game pretty much from the beginning of EA. They'd at least been planning on making her a companion for a long time. Yet her story has been entirely neglected. I think this just makes it even more likely that I'm never gonna complete this game. Larian made a good game, but it's really not that good. Larian has a lot of passion and ambition, but seems to me they're also like a bunch of disorganised teenagers wanting to shove everything in that they can with no regard to whether it will fit or make sense. This game is... just another crpg. It's got its own unique strengths, but it doesn't deserve the love and praise it's getting, not by a long shot. Larian are fine devs but just that, they're fine. Which is okay, we shouldn't demand every game be the best thing ever. It's fine to be fine.
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enthusiast
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enthusiast
Joined: Oct 2023
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The only benefit of a doubt I can give them here is the fact that she was a late addition, and the engine plotline was added very late in her development. So it might be more of a "well, we never did any content that was cut simply because we didn't have enough time to properly flesh out the alternatives". Although that just makes me think they should've pushed the game further back, instead of giving us an Act III that is very unpolished in a lot of aspects, and the weakest part of the game. It feels like Act I and II were done with a lot of care for major inconsistencies and plotholes, and III just was "lets wrap this up quickly". The thing is though, that she's not really a late addition. She's been in the game pretty much from the beginning of EA. They'd at least been planning on making her a companion for a long time. Yet her story has been entirely neglected. I think this just makes it even more likely that I'm never gonna complete this game. Larian made a good game, but it's really not that good. Larian has a lot of passion and ambition, but seems to me they're also like a bunch of disorganised teenagers wanting to shove everything in that they can with no regard to whether it will fit or make sense. This game is... just another crpg. It's got its own unique strengths, but it doesn't deserve the love and praise it's getting, not by a long shot. Larian are fine devs but just that, they're fine. Which is okay, we shouldn't demand every game be the best thing ever. It's fine to be fine. She was a late addition to the team as an origin character and as such her story and development would've come second to characters like laezel and shadowheart who were there from the beginning. Karlach mightve been there but she definitely was given as much love as the others.
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old hand
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old hand
Joined: Nov 2023
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It's at the end a game about power and about the abuse of power messes up people's lives, that's a dark topic. I mean the two main songs that play throughout it all are literally "I want to live" and "The Power". All of the characters have certain shared aspects, almost of all of them were de-humanised (for the lack of a better term) by their surrounding and suffer the consequences. (Though it's probably least true for Wyll, who has a story arc that still somewhat mystifies me.) I don't think it is a conceptually bad ending to have the character that was exploited and deceived by her powerful employer to get nothing more than revenge and the option to go out on her own terms. It is a very real ending for someone in such circumstances. I just personally don't like it and am glad that she did get an end that fits the more hopeful tones of the story much better.
Also, I'd like to point out that if you have that cute character that the story really, really wants you to like, that character will most likely meet a horrible end. It's a trope. If a character death is supposed to have impact, you have to care for the character first. Beth March from Little Women comes to mind as another character of this flavour. It's not a new thing. Though I am surprised that they didn't imagine the outrage beforehand. ^^
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apprentice
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apprentice
Joined: Sep 2023
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Also, I'd like to point out that if you have that cute character that the story really, really wants you to like, that character will most likely meet a horrible end. It's a trope. If a character death is supposed to have impact, you have to care for the character first. Beth March from Little Women comes to mind as another character of this flavour. It's not a new thing. Though I am surprised that they didn't imagine the outrage beforehand. ^^ I expected the game to not use such a low effort trope with how much care went into the other main characters(slightly exclusing wyll cos he has less screentime/dialogue and agency as the other characters do which sucks, but at least he doesnt have an ending to his character arc thats just depressing for the sake of it). Just imagine a reality where the devs put as much time and effort into karlachs questline as they did for astarion or shadowheart. Hell, just a fraction as much even, sure wouldve been nice lol
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old hand
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old hand
Joined: Nov 2023
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I don't think it's low effort, it's rather efficient. From my point of view, the problem with Karlach is basically what makes her popular, she is that perfect cinnamon roll from the start. She has not much of a character arc because there is no need for her to have one. You can't even corrupt her because she is too decent for that. She has not much to offer apart from being heart warming or heart wrenching. I think she is wonderfully written and acted the way she is, but there is only so much you can do with a character that does not have any internal conflict.
Really, my only big issue with her ending currently is, that on certain characters, you cannot stop her from exploding in the end, despite going with Wyll being her default decision.
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