Larian Studios Forums Baldur's Gate III Baldur's Gate III - Story & Character Discussion Justice for Gale

Before I start, I want to say that I absolutely appreciate and acknowledge all the hard work put into this game as we’ve seen with the constant support and new content. That being said, there are always things to be worked on and since you guys welcome feedback, I thought I would put in my two cents. In light of this article coming out, I wanted to voice some frustrations and concerns that have been on my mind. There are many things I didn’t like about it but I’m focusing on Gale for now as he is my favorite companion.

I want to address the treatment of Gale in this community by the writers and in game by other characters as well. It seems like we the players are meant to find him annoying and that he was actually supposed to be written that way, like his main purpose was just to irk the player. I’ve always had my doubts that this was just a consequence of the romance bug early on when the game came out, but to see the studio pick up on that joke and ride it out in this way is a slap to all Gale fans, his writer and his actor. He is a complex character that represents depression, su*cide and many themes of abuse of power. To see him be reduced to this joke and that the “right” ending is for him to blow up as some sort of redemption for his hubris (which isn’t even that big of an offense) and because he eats 3 useless magic items is offensive to people who relate to him. I feel at times that the intent is we should be ashamed or even embarrassed for liking Gale and this is really evident in moments in the game from NPC’s and even companions (calling him boring, that “Mock me if you will…” dialogue, more instances like this).

A lot of fans relate to his character and consider him a comfort of sorts. Calling the ending where he blows himself up the “right” ending negates and even diminishes the meaning of the good ending he has where he can actually redeem himself. Also, this is a decisions based game, so there is no “right” ending because it can go so many ways and it invalidates the choices players made in their playthroughs. Gale is more than just him being “annoying” (which he isn’t, but other companions yap a lot too if we're being honest), eating all your magic items (3!!!), simping over his ex (his literal goddess) and blowing himself up. He has an engaging storyline and arc that mirrors a certain popular vampire elf character (I love him don’t come after me) but for some reason, Gale is seen as needy, weak and yappy while the other one’s struggles are acknowledged and empathized with. There’s definitely a double standard because these characters are literally 2 sides of the coin but one gets treated way better than the other.

I’m extremely tired of seeing Gale be the punching bag of the group, as are so many other fans. It’s such a disservice to his character and many players get turned off to him because of all this negative talk that surrounds him. It would be nice to see him be treated with much more dignity in game and in community.

Anyways I have a lot more to say but at the end of the day, it is just a video game. However, the way the writers talk about their characters kills any desire I have left to continue any one of my playthroughs.

Also don't talk to certain npcs about your romance with him. Your character will apparently even agree when they call him "boring".

The interviewer doesn't seem to like Gale or Wyll much. Their favorite scene of Wyll was just being able to sleep with Mizora which has nothing to do with him or his character, lol.

Lol that article sure ruffled some feathers (mine included) for a number of reasons. Larian obviously didn't expect people to find these companions so relatable.

I personally do find Gale annoying and only like him when he's not talking, but that's because he talks so much I just don't have the patience. His main purpose really isn't to irk the player though. It's to kill things with magic with great efficiency.

I've never romanced him. You really have to call him boring?

Are they referring to the scene with the Orc lady? If I remember it's along the lines of, "Mock me as you may, but I like Gale." or something like that.

I agree that that interview was pretty lame, starting with how they seem to have talked over and spoken for the one female writer who was there. But yeah how they talked about the characters, whom many love and are attached to, was far too flippant and callous for my liking. And they seemed to take pleasure in the idea of some characters’ most tragic endings, e.g., Karlach and Gale.

Gale, for me, is a somewhat pretentious self-absorbed guy at first, but I warmed up to him in the Grove when he showed that he had such a soft spot for mischievous kids. He seems like a genuinely good, nerdy guy at heart, but they do keep his attitude…. just, yeah, a bit annoying throughout. Which I AGREE he did not deserve and it’s not cool that it would be a running joke.

Hey, someone made me a Gale thread, so I don't have to seize other thread's to talk about Gale! =)

First of all, I don't think blowing himself up is his "real" ending, they write about that it feels like a "right" ending. And while I would never do this to Gale, I agree. Having him sacrifice himself in Act 3 is a very poetic ending. He got the orb as a failed labour of love but ultimately for selfish reasons. In Act 2 he is not prepared to sacrifice himself for his goddess - and it would have horrible consequences if he did. When he offers to blow himself up for the group/ Tav in Act 3, he does it so nobody has to loose their soul, the consequence of becoming a mindflayer. Motivated by his care for others he uses the curse of his own ambition to take out both the symbol of unbridled human ambition, the crown of Karsus, and the ultimate creature of domination, the Elderbrain. And he does it in a fairly humble manner. It is very poetic.

I also don't really like it because allowing him to blow himself up despite knowing that he still thinks the world would be better off without him, is kind of like making Astarion drink from Araj to get the potion. It allows them to play into their worst opinions of themselves.


Z'rell is not a nice character and judging from her "gift" she is very much into domination and power-play. Of course she calls Gale pathetic because Gale is sweet (and a fair bit depressed in that moment) in her eyes that is probably pathetic. If you distract her with thoughts of Astarion, she'll basically gush over what a juicy piece of elf he is and talk about him as if he was some kind of pleasure toy. I think her comments are meant to be cruel, both towards the character who gets objectified and the PC who probably cares about their romantic partner.

I think much of Gale bashing comes from this stupid concept of talking badly about the character who is the direct "competition" of one's favourite. I don't know why, but apparently that's a thing and dear Astarion has some very enthusiastic fans - to put it mildly. Personally, I like them both and think that if you romance them with each other, you get the best story out of it.

Also I get most out of Gale's story when I don't take it quite so literally. He is in love with Mystra yes, but mostly he is in love with magic, with his craft and the obsession with it brought him to ruin. Read this way, it becomes a story about work-life balance and - much as in Astarion's case - about the necessity to connect with others. But that is a reading that requires some thought, while Astarion's story is a very literal abuse story. Gale also hides much of his pain very cleverly behind humour or his very matter-of-fact attitude, which makes it maybe harder to detect it. For example all cases in which his projection appears are hilarious but if you take a step back and think about them, they are all quite tragic.


P.S. I always have to laugh when people complain about the items he eats. They clearly haven't played his Origin, otherwise they'd know what real pain looks like. My beautiful, beautiful Ring of Evasion. ^^

Nah I'm making him a god, because screw Mystra.

That is such a terribly sad ending, at least in origin.

Epilogue though? I think at the very least a romanced Gale can succeed. Don't know if it's only exclusive to his romanced version. If so, pity I don't swing that way.

The God of Ambition epilogue in Gale's Origin felt very sad to me because it was so incredibly lonely, very fun but also very lonely. You can probably have more fun with his romanced God version though. But I prefer him as an adventurer in the end. =)

Gale rather grew on me as I played *as* him. As a companion, I do find him a little too talky, but then again - I have that with most companions. Wyll - and by extension Mizora are just annoying as the Hells. Nowadays, I pick a party of four that I run with and don't recruit anyone else.

But I include Gale for all my arcane needs, for certain. I like him better than Wyll, but Mizora popping up *all the time* triggering a bazillion conversations with both Karlach and Wyll.. Gods no. He was kind of bugged or something at release, where he was super-easy on the romance and that rubbed many people the wrong way, including myself. But as a character, I quite like him. His backstory is a little...... Well, they put him among the levels of Elminster, where I'd say he needs another thousand years and a pointy hat before he could kick his arse. Also, that kind of power-level is something that would have been an established character beforehand. Maybe he is, but it's super-weird that I've never heard of Gale of Waterdeep if he's *that* big a deal. Anyway. They all have these wicked over-the-top backstories, and Gale is no different, I suppose.

However, he comes across as an actual person to me; much more so than most others. I don't really know how or why he's the punching bag, though.

I like Gale, he is the friendliest companion in the beginning. I normally meet him, after a certain slightly crazy vampire put a knife to my neck, so I really appreciate Gale being polite and friendly. And while he sometimes doesn't have the best ideas, he is one of my favourite companions. If I want a really chill party, I have Gale, Wyll and Karlach with me and leave team drama queen at home. Jaheira works too later in the game.

I haven't finished the game yet, so I'm not going to spoil myself by reading that article.

I just wanted to say that I love Gale because he is the stereotypical nerdy bookloving guy that I always go for. At first I was irked that he was still mooning over his ex, but after discovering who she was, I got over it. (I'm playing a Cleric of Bahamut and if she had the same chance I know she'd take it -- btw, dragons can take any form they want so don't get uppity.)

That's the vibe I got as well, Wyll needs more love too and his story is definitely suffering for it.


Ha, I had to start one. It's my first time posting here so apologies if I get something wrong with the format. But what can I say, I'm a Gale girlie and honestly just had enough of people being dismissive of his character. I agree with others that he can be a bit much at times, but other characters can also talk my ear off (Wyll, Lae'zel, even Halsin) and I tend to skip over a lot of their dialogue.
I don't consider his ending where he sacrifices himself to be the right ending (not real whoops, misspoke there) either, which is why I was confused when that was said. It was a real surprise that a writer would even say that when there are so many ways this story can go. It kind of makes me feel like my playthrough where I saved him is pointless if that was "intended" to be his ending. They could've worded that a whole better, especially since this is an interview that fans would read.

I guess it all boils down to him becoming a joke and no one taking him or his story seriously. Part of the reason is articles like this where they feed into the bias, which is my initial problem.
There are just so many instances where Gale constantly gets demeaned though it's hard to keep track. I mean, if Larian can soften the female companions because a bunch of Reddit bros complained about how "icy" and "harsh" they were (I don't agree, I think women should have the right to be mean and not have to be softened to be more palatable for men), then they could also change the narrative around Gale at least with his companions and have them say AT LEAST one nice thing about him in banter/general conversations. This man needs a hug and for someone to tell him he's good enough. To call him annoying is a disservice to the complexity of his character and those who enjoy it.


I like to think most Astarion fans hate Gale so much because they see themselves in him and don't want to admit it. I can't tell you how many Astarion x Gale playthroughs I have currently where I explore their dynamic a bit more because they're so interesting together. You can either make them good, bad or have it where one of them ascends. It's a very interesting duo and it's a shame that Astarion fans are missing out on it.

Have Gale ascend, leave Astarion as a spawn. Both can become gods together with Astarion breaking the cycle and Gale succeeding with his ambition. Happy ending for both.

Gale is fine, he can go on rambling if he likes. I just need a "tell me a story" option for him in camp, which prompts him to tell some fun anecdotes.


Right in the sense that it feels like a round conclusion to his arc, for his character/person it is a horrible ending. Just if that was fuzzy in what I wrote. And it would probably been more subtle of them to call it a heroic ending.

I think, I feel less outrage about this because I was aware of it before. I mean, all of them have some kind of heroic cut-scene that concludes their character arc - apart from Gale and Karlach. Gale's dramatic cutscene is hidden in the explosion ending and Karlach's is burning at the docks. In his companion-version, he also had zero closure in any of his other possible endings (Edit: before the epilogue I mean). While with Karlach on the other hand they leaned in hard to make her death sad. Which is why, I think ...


Karlach is the main problem here. The companions aren't too often nice about each other in general, but you have two characters with a bomb in their chests and possible suicide endings, yet the story really really wants you to like one of them while the other is treated like normal. So everyone has something nice to say about Karlach and you have tons of moments that are supposed to make you feel sorry for her, so it stings when she blows up. Gale on the other hand doesn't get that special treatment, you now just get a very sad moment at the epilogue that maybe makes you question your decision.


Ha! So do you also treat breaking into the Vault at Sorcerous Sundries as a first date for them too?

Personally, Gale's Origin is my favourite version of this game and I really love how much of a devil on your should Astarion becomes in it. Almost always when the narration reminds you about what Mystra would want, there is a scene in which Astarion tries to pull you into the other direction. His whole "lets take over the cult" spiel in Act2 is just delicious if it hits the depressed guy who is charged with blowing the whole tower up.

This makes no sense to me.

You’re upset because you think the writers intentionally made him annoying, but you found him to be your favourite companion and go on to explain how complex a character he is. So he wasn’t annoying, then?

In the interview they only mention people find him annoying at the very start of the game, and that’s mainly due to his condition. You haven’t found many magical items and Gale tells you he needs to regularly eat them. But that becomes practically no issue at all. I was a little worried he was going to need more and more powerful items throughout the game. (It was way more of a big deal in early access).

You have the option for Gale to sacrifice himself to save the world. That’s a pretty major character arc and very far from a joke. You can make him the hero of the whole story, which is what he would do if you don’t give him another option.

Also I believe they’ve addressed the issue of people getting surprise romance from him by adding an extra dialogue option.

I mean, his 3rd act quest is literally 'Let's go to that bookshop - what is not to love about that?

Even better, it's: "Let's break into that bookshop and get powerful magical books, all the Lvl 6 Spell Scrolls, a bunch of potions and a cute hat!" Such a good caper.

Yeah, I mean, he had meat book store (I'm a bookworm myself), but getting to loot all those goodies, was the cherry on top

I think, he might have had me at: "Perhaps I should have clarified, a helping hand, anyone?" to be completely honest. ^^

While I preferred both EA Shadowheart and EA Wyll to their final forms Gale was much improved. Not that I ever took him with me but he no longer annoyed me so much that I forced him to leave the camp or just ran around his portal.

I have romanced him and I don't know what this is about either. Generally, he is a pretty good sport about teasing him (unless it gets too mean) and is aware of his faults enough to joke about them, which leads to a couple very memeable situations. Other than that I noticed that Shadowheart especially is fairly dismissive about him - though that might just be her in general.

I think some people project a lot of their own experiences onto Gale when he is 100% supposed to be an insufferable wizard who needs his ego taken down a peg or two or three. The game teases him because part of him thinks (or wants to think) that he is hot shit. But that is also why I like him. He is an insufferable, cocky wizard, but does have a heart under all that. I believe he can live a good life when he's not chasing unattainable dreams or women.
Hence I do disagree that blowing himself up is a good ending, but I think the writers were going along with what the interviewer was saying rather than making a statement.

I find some fans of Gale don't see the man's astronomical ego and have been complaining about people "being too mean" to him since EA. I just don't want all the hubbub to encourage Larian to make Gale as much of a "poor me" baby like some fans think he is.

What is insufferable about him? (Edit: Say in comparison to Shart who is absolutely full of herself too until the end of Act2) I mean, I assume it is a question of which type of people you usually like but he is one of the few companions that are pleasant to be around with, he doesn't stir trouble in the group and I only want to thunderwave him off a cliff once or twice much later in the game, when the whole crown business starts. He is confident (if sometimes overconfident and prone to temptation) in the skills he is actually good at but ready to dish out praise for others.

I think the only way you run into serious problems with him is, when you also play as a highly ambitious sorcerer or wizard and are dismissive about him and his expertise - but in that case the player character is just as bad. ^^

And I don't mind teasing him, I fully approve of kissing Gale after licking the spider, and prompting the "Fine" speech, but I just reviewed the Elminster scene for a bug report and making fun of him during his own scene is maybe a bit much?

It does seem like the game itself punishes the player for romancing Gale--or at least second-guesses their choice and shames them for it. Between the "mock me if you will but I have a thing for Gale" being a player choice when romancing him to also telling Sorn that if the player wants boring sex they can ask Gale (when in a romance with him), when there's none of these kind of dialogue options when romancing other characters. It's... off-putting. Like *why*? Why have this if not to just dunk on Gale needlessly?

I get Gale was bugged on release and that led to the player-base memeing him as a horny, pushy guy and what-not, but the game beginning to reflect the more meme'd aspects of Gale's character and how fans responded to him because of bugs leaves a bad taste.

And then to see the IGN interview also just entertain his "blow up" ending and call it "right" and continue calling him "annoying". I don't know. Especially when I don't get why people complain so much about giving Gale 2-3 magical items when no one complains to the same degree about needing to fetch Karlach's internal iron. Just double-standards.

Where even is that mock me line? Or is it in the brothel as well?

My current pet peeve is Karlach's dialogue after the Elminster visit. It is unproportionally long compared to that of the other companions, centers on her, breaks the mood of the scene with funny lines and worst of all, while all the other companions question Mystra's or Gale's motivations, Karlach tells the player what to think, that wizards are stupid and finishes with a joke at his expense. In his scene, of which he has not many.

By contrast during Karlach's big scene everybody is very moved, Jaheira's dialogue is long but focuses on Karlach's feelings and while Minsc also has a humorous line, it is one that reflects sincere concern. Double standards. And a double shame because the writing and performances of the Elminster scene are beautiful.

It's when talking to Quil Grootslang. Here's all the dialogue options re: romantic interests, and only Gale's is negative.

Quil Grootslang: Is there someone who you think you might love? Come on, I won’t tell.
“Astarion might be the most perfect being to ever walk the day.”
“Shadowheart is pure grace.”
“I’ll never meet another like Lae’zel, that’s for sure.”
“Wyll is such a gentleman, I imagine he’d make an even better partner.”
“Karlach seems like she has so much love to give, if she found the right person.”
“My mind and loins are captive to thoughts of Halsin.”
“I met the most amazing, bewildering Drow the other day.”

and then we have...

“Mock me as you will, but I have a thing for Gale.”

There's just a lot of things like this where it seems like Larian did not care much for Gale at all. Dark Urge has a special, unique interaction to murder him (and only him). He gets mocked so much by NPCs (and apparently the player as well).

Like, I guess it is what it is. But as a fan of Gale as a character it is alienating.

Ouch ... that is very cringe-worthy dialogue in general. Thank you for explaining.

Wow, that's just so bad. I knew there were scenes where we could tease Gale a bit ourselves, which just looked like funny rival banter, but this is just tasteless and mean.


I also found her response to the whole thing cringeworthy, she was making the situation look trivial, while she herself was a ticking time bomb. It was the final nail in the coffin that made me not want to put her in my party anymore. She didn't say anything about wizards being stupid though. When does that happen?

Well in my Opinion the Problem with Gale Character its that he was not Created to Be a Companion..
Karlach Falls in the Same Stuff..
They were Made for yu to Play as Then.. not to Bring then as companion..
Thats why Both Tales are so Weak and fall super Short..
and the Game Force your Hand to Make Gale the Main of the History if yu Bring hin in the Party during act 2,3 witch sux a Lot.. and made a Bunch of People Hate the character..
I my Self never Take hin out of the Stone as Tav/Durge becouse of that..
I dont Creat a Custom Character to Become Gale Hireling.. thats stupid in my opinion..
and the Game gave yu a BUNCH of hints that he was the Origianl Main of the Tale no Joke..
Bunch of Times during the Game yu can see it Clearly that he was intended to be the Main Protagonist..
they Made this Stuff of Custom Character i Bet Latter Becouse for a Bunch of People its a NO GO playing without a Custom char..
Larian notice that and Made Tav/Durge..
and thats why the tale of this 4 sux.
Gale/Karlach/Tav/Durge.

All the Other Companions dosent Have this Problem..
Becouse they were Write as Companions..
Shadow, Astarion, Lae'zel, Minthi.. all of then are Ok and work super well as companions..
Wyll its a Joke.. he dosent Have nothing..
Only thing good in hin is Mizora if yu Scrap his Character changes nothing..
yu can even Save Ravengard without hin and Floric Make yu the Hero, yu just lose the sex with Mizora.. haha

I paraphrased. "Fucking wizards, man! They always need help picking the simple, obvious option." is her text in full.

It's funny that you wrote that Laezel was ok as a companion. I've found Laezel was by far the worst when playing a githyanki. My character was sidelined by her in the gith questline, and even the ending felt like tacked onto her story. It just shows that with different characters the experiences can be very different.

You are however wrong on the custom characters, only Tav was available to play as in EA, you could not play as origins. So the game had this option from the start, only DU is the late addition.

I see. She doesn't dare say things like this to a wizard Tav's face.

Still... now I have yet another reason to dislike her. Time to load up the game and set someone on fire.

I *strongly* disagree here. Gale has *lots* of content as a companion from act 1 to act 3, far more than say, Shadowheart or Astarion. He's literally the companion that explains everything surrounding one half of the main plot; namely that particular object that the main villain wears. He also is the only one that can uniquely influence how you end the game. And, as a companion, Gale has probably the most growth as a character during the campaign- where he can take the route his Goddess asks of him..... Or where he goes completely off-the-rails hungry for power. I'd say that Gale is actually one of the best written companions from start to finish, seconded only by Lae'Zel.

If you play *as* Gale, you're basically a Human Wizard Tav. You get a really fun cat in camp, but otherwise would never know that you're Gale of Waterdeep until the very, very end.

Maybe yu are right but i Hate bring hin as companion.. becouse of what i Say..
so i only use hin when i Play as Hin..
BTW was the Only run when i felt i was Playing the Canon way.
when i PLay as Tav/Durge always Felt Wrong/incomplete.

(i Hate the way Mystra and Elmister talk to yu like yu are Nothing and he is the most important thing Ever.. and the game do it to yu more then one Time.)
Even in His Final Talk.. he goes alone.. ?!
wait what ?!
i face Vlakith with Laezel, i Face Shar with Shadow and The scumbag Vampire Lord with Astarion all the time by there Sides not feeling like im nothing.. but with Gale.
The game made me feel this way.. like i was Nothing.
Anything i Did was Nothing, his BLowing Chest and the stupid Crow its the only thing that Matter.. felt like Shit no Joke.
Hate it a LOOOOOT.
So i never take hin out of the Stone..
Or when i take it.. i leave hin Behind in the underdark and Kill elmister just to show Mystra that im the Boss in the Roon. haha

Depending on how you interpret that it can also be shitty. And I think we all know how the writers expect us to interpret that.


You can Durge Minthara too. Hers is... I'd say worse than Gale's.

Exactly this. I started this thread in the hopes of shedding some light on Gale and how the community treats him. I see now that some people just don’t get his character at all. Him being reduced to just being the annoying one takes away the impact of his arc, everything he stands for, and labels his fans as annoying too. This is not to say he is free of fault or that we see him as some “poor me” baby, quite the opposite. The man is quite literally paying for his hubris and has acknowledged it multiple times in the game, where the players can even weigh in and give him shit for it too. My point was, however, that the game and the writers focus too much on mocking him and making him look like a joke during a lot of his pivotal moments that we don’t get with the other companions. I feel ashamed to be a Gale fan at times because the game makes me feel this way. I constantly have to defend why I like him. Not even Gortash fans have to fight for their lives like we do lol.

Not to mention the countless times I’ve come across videos and livestreams of players making fun of Gale and hacking his hand off for the fun of it just because he wants a few magic items, as if the other companions don’t ask you to do deadlier things for them. Also what precedent does this set for people who relate to him because he has a chronic condition or even depression? That they’re annoying and should kill themselves? That interview was just so dismissive but we don’t see that treatment with any of the other companions and their tragic backstories. They’re validated and seen but god forbid you relate to Gale. I can’t tell you how many discussions I’ve seen that show people don’t take Gale’s story seriously and that they’ve missed the point completely. And I guess I can’t blame them, because even the game doesn’t take him seriously and that’s where the issue lies.

Does Gale have a huge ego? Sure, but honestly who else in the game doesn’t? That’s not a really good reason to constantly be the only character that has opportunities to dunk on him. Other companions don’t have half as much of the mean dialogue you can say to or about them like you can with Gale. All I’m really saying is, Gale is a great character with an amazing storyline and it’s a shame it doesn’t get recognized by the players or the writers. I don’t think a lot of players get to experience his story because of all this bias around him, and all these jokes are only adding to this. And if Larian put as much supportive dialogue options for him in the game as much as they’ve put mean ones, then that’d be great too.


Still so bitter that a late addition character has better treatment, unique dialogue and cutscenes, and support from the companions than Gale does. Granted, her story is still not finished but everyone’s so nice to her right off the bat. Imagine if Karlach had the same dialogue options that Gale had… can you imagine the outrage?

Lorroakan also recognises him - unless you meant that.

I partly disagree. I really like his Origin, not just because of Tara. I think the thing with the ring at the beginning was a pretty genius move to efficiently drive home that his situation is painful. (I sacrificed the sword from the Nautiloid to keep the thing. I fought so hard for that blade ...) I love how the war of his conscience is reflected by opposing the narration's reminders of what Mystra would want with Astarion tempting you to do the opposite. You have these very nice choice moments in the Shadowcurse during which you can also ponder whether you grasp for power or follow your goddess's command - which correspond with the explanation about Shadow Magic he gives you as a companion. I also really like that you get to choose why not to explode, get a much more productive audience with Mystra - and if you wish to go down that route - a possible grander reason for detonating the crown in the end. I am very happy with the Origin, it has nice roleplaying incentives. Also I think that Gale did get some really good Tav lines, complete with jokes and all. They felt very him. It's just a pitty that not more of his party banter was left in, especially in Act 3 a lot is missing.

What I would love, is an option for him to reclaim his name in the "good" version, as that seems rather essential for him.

What if you reverse the situation, and play a human wizard Tav (or a githyanki warrior, since you also named Lae'zel)? What I find problematic is not the companions as characters, but their origins.

When playing as Gale, you can learn that So I can see how people can arrive at the conclusion that these characters were written mostly as protagonist. I think as with any impressions, this is of course very subjective, and dependent on your own experience, but it is not without substance.

On a side note, I also found the throwbacks to the original BG games in Gale's origin a bit of a weird choice, considering who DU is.

I do really like Gale's writing and voice acting, especially the more playful dialogues have great flow, it does feel like a conversation. Very charming, there often is a teasing note to it and I don't mind that all, he has some good comebacks to it too. I also like, that during the epilogue kiss, he gets to tease the PC for once which was a nice gesture and very cute.

I might be willing to bet a soul coin that the Quill dialogue and the brothel dialogue were written by the same person, there seems to be one or more writers who's mind and loins are captivated by Halsin often and they seem to like playing the same tune over and over again. Also while Astarion doesn't get mocked as much, he does get sexualised often and I feel that is just as bad. (And poor Halsin deserved better than to bear such a load of questionable content too.)



I am generally bitter if characters are made to hijack scenes they have no business hijacking, the second Emperor reveal is another one of those. I didn't need him there, the situation was good without him. But other than that, yes she gets a lot of special treatment - but fortunately, one can exchange her for a rather fine garment. That's how one gets accustomed to a mercenary's life.

When the writing tries so hard to make you like someone it backfires.

Also, this is an RPG, you're supposed to be able to be a piece of shit to your companions, but in BG3 those opportunities can feel unequal for different characters.

I see what you did there.


Or you can both be ambitious wizards, supportive of each others' plans and wreak havoc together. Fun times.

Gale may be mocked because ageism is alive and well in this world, and he is arguably the most mature member of the party before Jaheira. I respec him to be my cleric ASAP so that he can stay with me throughout. He's my Durge's voice of reason because she's so clueless. (This is probably a recipe for disaster but it will be a fun ride.)

Sh***yfart and Karlach never leave camp in my game because ain't nobody got time for annoying teenage girls. Halsin seems so nice at first, but after reading how disgusting he is once he becomes a companion, he can also stay in camp and amuse the girls with his slutty tricks.

If Jaheira doesn't have Sleight of Hand I'll respec her once I can recruit her so I can dump Mr. Twilight in camp as well.

Signed, a cranky old female gamer.

I did this this, but did you realize you didn´t kill the *real* Elminster? If you examine him, you'll notice he counts as a construct. When you kill him, he dissolves into a puddle of water.

He's a simulacurum, and Mystra is not impressed.

[I might have misspelled that, but that is a rather complicated word, lol]

What I meant specifically is that Gale never has any unique interactions until Act 3. Karlach has some fun introspective moments, Shadowheart has a fair amount of scenes in Act 1 and LOTS in Act 2. Laezel has lots of things to do in every act, because of the GIthyanki plot. Gale has the Tressym scenes in Act 1, and that's it. Whereas, as you take him as a companion, he's literally the exposition character that discusses and explains the main plot.

I actually like how things can play out different if your MC is a certain origin. For that matter, I am one of those who actually likes Karlach's ending, too. All game long you're told you're gonna bite the dust, until you do. Really sad, but it would've been a cop out if that didn't happen.

And the Shadowmagic spellslot thing in Act 2, though that feels minor compared to what you say about Shart. I was surprised that the people who comment on the strange magic of the tadpole don't notice that the whole wizard is full of this strange magic. Especially Aunty Ethel has such a strong aversion to the netherese magic that I would have expected a stronger reaction - even more so since she does have a mockery line about the wizard being rot and ruin.




A Gale thread needs puns! I just had him comment on Clowns being 'armless when finding Dribbles's arm.


That is of course very true. Please hunt down all the rogue shadow mages and then pilfer their secrets to your heart's content.

Yeah exactly. Like I don't have a problem necessarily with the player character being able to take the piss out of Gale--if someone wants to do that playthrough, that's cool. The problem comes when Gale-related options (especially re: being in a romance with him) are limited to only insulting choices and the fact this treatment doesn't extend to the other characters.

About the soul-spoiler...



I like to keep him intact because then

Wow, I just saw this alternative outcome with heroic Gale and it's so sad! It's a shame the other companions in the group have nothing to say. The epilogue party plays out differently too.

I just wish he had a proper character-quest-ending cut scene that didn't require his death - or the death of the party. But I do like his orb scene very much.

I don't even understand the "boring sex" line. Gale has one of the most elaborate and over-the-top sex scenes in the game. Yes, you can choose "boring" sex instead (and I do), but that doesn't seem to be what the line is referring to. Is it implying he's out of practice or something?

My guess would be, it either refers to him disliking the whole orgy business or to the "it was fine" after the act 2 romance scene which you can use either as real answer or to tease him. I like the Weave scene for what it represents even though it does look funky.

The thing where she's immune to the curse, the whole Gauntlet section, she has her own lines when facing 'The Doctor' and inside the little tob thing, and the big choice to be made, the reveal of her true nature - the whole of Act 2 is kind of made for Shadowheart. Gale doesn't have anything a Human Tav Wizard doesn't get until Act 3.

Yes, there is Elminster and Tara - but that's just some exposiotion and it happens in camp. He has nothing to *do*. That said, Astarion gets nothing until then, either, but at least you can try and bite people as Astarion. There is *some* agency.

Now, that said, Gale gets the *best* Act 3 and the coolest finale out of everyone

Now that I think of this, I think it is bloody retarded that a *vampire* takes necrotic damage from a shadow curse. Astarion should be immune, or at least resistant to necrotic damage and vulnerable to fire. But, tadpoled. That explains it.

While it might not be much compared to what you describe for Shart, you only get the option to cleanse/absorb the body of one of the Thorm siblings with Origin-Gale. Also you generally don't get reminded that Mystra would not approve of Tadpole absorbtion.



Do you mean blowing up with the coolest finale? I think that is a rather depressing finale, just as the whole God-affair is. What makes Act 3 special for you?

Eh, I think God Gale is a badass. He can own Raphael so bad.

https://www.youtube.com/shorts/EXlNeMrXxdE

Gale is always badass even as a human!

I think he may be *way* more entertaining as companion, than as an Origin. As an Origin I found him depressing under a thin coating of hilarious. ^^;

Edit: I don't think he has a bad Act 3 or a bad finale, just that for me it mostly felt satisfying which his companion arc does not because it lacks closure. Even with the Epilogue it's like the final page of the actual story is missing.

I've wondered if it has something to do with him being monogamous as well? I am not entirely sure where the idea came from Gale is "vanilla" when 1) the weave sex scene is incredibly wild where he essentially triple-teams the player character and 2) he even implies him and Mystra got up to some kinky stuff with her sounding him with weave, like... It doesn't seem factual at all and just a way to be mean to Gale when in a relationship with him.

I don't agree with this? Gale only gets a cinematic ending if he opts to kill himself. Otherwise his other endings basically happen off-screen (until the epilogue, if not playing Gale origin, it was legitimately a mystery what happened to him if he chose godhood/wasn't in a relationship with the player).

Even in Act 3, Gale's arc is just finding out more about the Karsite Weave and then making a choice on what to do about the Crown. If the player opts not to kill Gale, he doesn't have much else to do. It feels a little incomplete.

Not to mention to mention that he seems to have a bit of a thing for danger in more than one respect: Doing bloody battle in a grim, dark cursed land at your side is what makes you proposition you, while forbidden, dangerous magic is also always a temptation. Excluding the brothel situation, I had thought someone had taken "still waters run deep" as a guideline for him, very nice and polite on the outside but once you start looking, there are layers.

I hadn't been at the brothel with him as a companion for a while because I had played his origin, but looking at it again now, you cannot even get out of the conversation with the Drow without being mean, bordering on cruel, to him. The option that on the surface seems to be the "nicest", the persuasion, leads to the worst outcome by far. And apart from being cruel to your partner, it also does not allow you to play your own character as kind or clueless and not interested in the whole thing yourself. If you are in the same situation with Astarion however you can be considerate of his feelings and are not forced to make fun of them instead. Apparently having body image issues is a thing to be mocked for now, thank you very much.


Also, yes, the tressym is a winged cat in form but as a character Tara is very much treated as a maternal friend, so I don't even see the issue. I think it's cute how during the epilogue kiss, Tara is pointedly not looking at the couple but cleaning her paw.

Lol wtf are those options. Seriously, who writes dialogue like that.

With Astarion you're considerate up until the end when the narrator tells you he's been dissociating and you couldn't be bothered.

It is already distressing that convincing Gale to participate in the brothel sex is treated like a joke when he’s very much uncomfortable about it—and even once the scene is over he’s adamant he and the player never talk about it again.

You’re right that basically the player can’t even engage in that scene without treating Gale like garbage. It’s ridiculous.

Seriously, did several writers on this project just despise Gale and let it bleed into their work? I cannot think of another explanation.

Edit: I actually think it should be in the Suggestions and Feedback channel that being able to talk Gale into the brothel sex is disgusting as is. It’s coercive and icky. Especially when he very much doesn’t like it.

If Gale was a female character and those options were there (calling him “boring” in bed, coercing him to participate in a sex act he explicitly said he didn’t want to when the other option is straight up being cruel to him, etc) there would be a firestorm, but somehow it’s okay because he’s a guy? No thanks.

It has been done.

So much for having "intimacy counselors" as part of the dev team. More lip service, more likely, unless these intimacy counselors bought their training at Walmart.

I may be wrong, but I think that was for the actors, not the writers.

I think this is a problem with the romance in the game in general. It's been marketed as "mature" but 75% it's the opposite for me. It shows with the other companions, and it most definitely shows with Gale. I'm never gonna romance Gale but even I know that not backing him up and even agreeing with those who insult him while romancing him + his Sharess Caress scene is incredibly low and insensitive. But instead it's just played for laughs, because fuck Gale. At least you can control whatever goes on in Sharess Caress, the rest not so much.

I've also never done Gale's romance, but I often have a problem with his dialogue in general. It feels like unless I'm asking questions my options are either "yes, absolutely, happy to help" or "go f*ck yourself". Where's the "yeah ok" option? And of course then there's the famous "I hate cats".

Well, it all makes sense now. They hired intimacy counselors so the actors wouldn't sue for having to act out the abhorrent writing.

Without having read all the pages, i will just add that i want justice for Gale, too. I deon't even trigger the brothel scene with him. Given that man is 100% monogamous, it would feel like rape to me, to make him even watch....


Them the new epilogues: The God Gale ending is the "evil" ending for me, as he is a god od ambition after all. Which means, once a goal is achieved he will find another. Once he finished his strugglw ith Mystra, he will fins another enemy. At the end of the day he will never be happy or satisfied.

The -worst- ending is sacrificinmg Gale and you see his image telling you Goodbye, only topped with Raphael has the Crown of Karsus. The letter he leaves is right in the feels...

I don't care what others think, my idea of the "Good" ending is the Waterdeep professor Gale, because he just seems more happy and content. Only a good partner can beat this ending. Ok, if we get marrioed to Gale, we also have to basically marry Tara and his mother. But i feel this is the best ending. No power can beat the power of Love and happiness.


But my actual purpose to post here is: Astarion and Wyll and everyone got a new Kiss animation. Why not Gale? I played just post the romance in act 2, scene where you're finally able to kiss him and then this.... he still has the old Kiss animation. Gale is not such a bad character. Many people still like him, so he deserves more attention. Please Developers: give him a Kiss animation, that we do not just see in the epilogue, but the rest if the Romance also!

This is already in the works, FYI. Just hasn't been implemented yet.

I love Gale!

If he's not along for the ride it definitely feels like something's missing. On my first Durge run I didn't realize that you could also choose to not bite his hand off. I just figured it was something like Gale wasn't available to record the Durge-y lines, so that was their work around. I thought for sure that decision would come back to haunt me, but it didn't really. Instead I just found myself missing Gale.

He's one of the most reliable companions and he really shines in the 3rd act, because Wizards at lvl 12 just bring so much to the table, plus he's got all the flying cats and whatnot. Even early on though, he's got some definite chops for story delivery. My Sorcerers wouldn't even know what's going on half the time, if Gale wasn't there to explain it for us. I love that he eats the artifacts. I love the first time when he dies and you have to do the whole crazy routine to resurrect him. What's a little weird is that in my last run I never got that one, but maybe that's cause he ate all 3 artifacts before dying or something? Not sure, but I did enjoy that quite a bit the first time around. I love all the book stuff and his running commentary.


I did that ending shown above for one of my Tactician runs, but I got a totally different sort of closer. This was a patch 4 playthrough. In that one my Sorceress had romanced Lae'zel, as tends to happen, so we sided with Orpheus and I transformed into the flayer myself. I got in the weeds for the last battle and it was pretty late, so I decided to give the ball to Gale and just go hail mary with it into the endzone. I loved that I still had that option at the end, and that Gale was there when we needed him most. Down to take it all the way.

He totally did the same speech as in the video above, except that after he detonated, instead of that lonely fugue plane afterparty, it skipped straight to the final Orpheus cutscene. Gale was alive again and I was alive again and everybody was there and happy chatting it up before we shipped off to the Astral. Somehow when the Gale bomb went off everything just worked out perfectly, as if by magic, which seemed apt. I mean except for my face, which still had the tentacles, but otherwise it felt totally worth it!

I guess maybe that was a bugged game ending, but it completely worked for me and put me in a great mood when that run concluded. Total hero move on Gale's part. I thought that was a rad outro. It fully made Gale into the MVP for saving Faerun when the chips were down, but like with none of the downside or bitter aftertaste.

He's a winner. He deserves a happy ending.

Sounds like a bug, especially if it was the previous patch. Around that time I heard people report that once they were teleported to the docs he'd show up alive like in a normal ending, despite the characters making comments about his death a few moments earlier.

That resurrection thing is awesome, lol. On Hoonour mode especially, I do that 'quest', then raise him with a regular scroll - True Resurrection is waaaay too handy to have in the endgame

My current theory is, that you only get the "In Case of Death" quest if he dies before the orb get stabilised. Yurgir bombed him away on my Tactician run recently which was his first death and it produced neither projection nor aura.

But the first time I got the quest was very special to me. I hadn't completely understood all the mechanics yet and Gale got pushed into the Chasm by one of Dror Ragzlin's goons. He was the first one who had really died on me and I was scared that he was gone for good. Seeing his stupid projection filled me with so much joy and relief, I would have hugged it, if there had been an option.

To bring the bear-rug into this room as well: I only just realised how truly atrocious this whole larger brothel situation can be for Astarion & Gale if you line up events in the right (or the very wrong) way.

In Rivington you can first meet Tara and make date plans with Gale (I am not sure if friends also get an invitation to dinner). The murder trail then leads you to the Flophouse where you meet Astarion's siblings and learn more about the ritual. From their you are lead to Sharess' Caress, where Madame will gift you with a stint with the Drow twins for solving her employee problem. (Alternately, you can also start with Madame and wrap it up from there.) Should Halsin be in the party, he will make his interest to join you with the twins known, not matter whether or not you have shown any interest in him before. If you progress the "Agreement? What kind of agreement?" line of dialogue both Astarion & Gale will make their disinterest known, for Astrion it ends there (as this is Pre-Cazador) for Gale you can either mock him or make him go through with it. Also there is an option to go alone with one of the Drow which Gale will also not like but apparently he is not allowed to do anything about it either.

So after having established that both guys don't have much to offer in regards to sex (because one has "complications" and the other is boring) you move on, coronations happen, contracts are changed, eventually Halsin makes his moves with the "many lovers" speech which may or may not be motivated by an orgy or at least the thought of one. So in this scenario, Astarion's reply is very hard to read as anything but fear of loosing the PC, while in Gale's case you can either dump the "boring guy" for the hot druid or are left with the feeling of having chosen the stable but dull relationship. All around lovely.

And the reverse card for SH. You can progress Rivington and show up in sharess caress where she declines to sleep with them(until you have first time with her). Game also always puts Halsin's offer before her scene, so there you can decline his "offer" in the most hard way(deep rothe line) and he is gonna be chill for some time, however after her scene you instantly get Halsin's banter proposing threesome in the morning into Sharess' caress ridiculous thing. It's like reverse Gale situation almost.
Thats why I say this thing in brothel and Halsin overall should be somehow tweaked for all the companions.

I'm mainly a Gale fan. I figure he can be a little awkward at times but it makes sense given he's been isolated for a year and didn't have friends before that. His bragging doesn't bother me because from the bottom of my heart I do not believe him lol. I immediately took it as a front where guy's trying to make himself useful in an irreplaceable way. Makes sense when Gale sees himself as personally worthless at best, an imposition or burden at worst. I don't even think the orb incident was an act of hubris (he wanted to have personal worth to Mystra the way she had personal worth to him--reasonable in a healthy/equal relationship) and I genuinely don't think it's something he needs to be forgiven for. ESPECIALLY when Mystra's a former mortal herself. I don't think what Gale did was morally wrong. Just tragic and naïve.

I'm inclined to give Larian benefit of the doubt in the sense that I think the interview was carelessly, imprecisely expressed and fans have latched onto the worst possible interpretation of it. I still think it would serve well to clarify if that's the case. Selfishly, it's distracting when I want to make my own content celebrating the game and leaves a shitty taste in my mouth on top of that. I'm sure I'm not the only person in that position. The worst interpretation of the interview IS pretty horrendous too, so it's worth putting to rest if it isn't intended imo.

I do think Gale and Wyll (incidentally) aren't being handled with the same gravity and respect for their abuse as other cast members. I hope it's not because they're male victims of female abusers, but it's weird that they're the two whose victimization isn't always afforded weight. They also both are put into positions of being told that if they don't self-destruct the way their abusers want, it's their fault should anyone else get hurt. Not the Absolute, not Mizora, not the Dead Three, not Gortash. Just them. Both Wyll and Gale are taught not to trust themselves or their own abilities independent of their abusers. Both Wyll and Gale were approached and taken advantage of from young ages. And the narrative... tends to reinforce that crap, implying they would be bad people for treating themselves as worthy of protection too. For not submitting to their abusers. Which is manipulative bullshit to the highest degree. That is literally the kind of shit abusers use on kids in real life to keep them from talking. Ex. 'If you tell anyone I'm going to kill your family and it will be all your fault.'

With Gale, I think there may be an added issue where the writers want to tease him for being a bit lame (which is fine, I do it to characters I love all the time and find lameness endearing haha) but all the punchlines are serious issues he's struggling with. Guy was groomed from a young age and has limited sexual experience outside of Mystra? Make fun of him sexually. Suicidal person believes himself to be annoying, unlikable, and only as good as the magic he offers? Lol he should just kill himself, it's ridiculous to think anyone would like him. How embarrassing would THAT be?

Poke fun at how much of a cat dad he is or something. Fans are already on that page and it's cute. Going after the sources of his trauma is like making slut jokes about Astarion for being raped over two centuries.

There are ways to tease that are affectionate, and there's teasing that feels cruel. Gale's one of the main characters in this game and a romance option. Larian succeeded in getting a lot of players to love him, and told a story about abuse and mental health issues that resonates with a lot of people. It's only shooting themselves in the foot to frame him as less worthy of care than other characters.

It does feel like Larian, when developing this story and the characters, were respectful with the trauma of the female characters (and Astarion but likely because his abuser was a man) whereas Gale and Wyll’s abuse by female characters is regarded as either
1) their fault or 2) a joke or 3) a good thing.

Like the recent holiday cartoon had Wyll salivating over an autograph of Mizora. It was so tone-deaf. Imagine if the cartoon had Astarion blush over a photo of Cazador? Or Karlach wolf whistling at a picture of Gortash?

What is the message here? That Wyll’s abuse is sexy because Mizora is hot? That we aren’t meant to sympathize with him? It does his story a disservice.

I get the cartoon isn’t meant to be taken seriously, but again that’s the thing that Wyll’s abuse at the hands of Mizora is something not considered worthy of tact or understanding.

Unfortunately we have a long ways to go as a society before male victims of abuse are given consideration.

Oh jeez, I didn't see that and wasn't aware. That's pretty horrendous. Wtf.

Like... strip morality and craftsmanship out for a second, do they not realize that's not a smart move in terms of business? They spent a whole story where they got players invested in the characters and their most vulnerable experiences as victims of abuse. They specifically went out of their way to NOT position Mizora like an abusive lover to Wyll. She went for him when he was old enough to think he knew better and young enough to be extremely mistaken. She has been constantly in his head via sending stone ever since. I can't think of a single scene where Wyll isn't horrified and repulsed by her. It's not even a 'when it's good it's great, when it's bad it's my fault' flavor of abuse--which would still be uncomfortable with the cartoon you described.

When the playerbase cares about and identifies with these characters, while seeing them as vulnerable... does Larian think audiences will react well to making fun of or trivializing that vulnerability? That's pretty much the fastest way to piss fans off. It's detrimental to building a following and a good reputation.

Saying this with love, but they can easily tease Wyll for dramatic nicknames. He shows in-game he's ready to slap 'em on other people too. Give him the same enthusiasm making up titles for vendors, cooks, guards, and particularly impressive animals. He could actually pull through to become a memeable advertising slogan generator if they play their cards right.

Suggesting he wanted Mizora's abuse is just really messed up and alienating as hell. I legitimately think they need to ask themselves what the punchline of jokes are with this stuff.

And yeah... I've noticed people seem to struggle with male victims of female abusers. Since Larian did decide to go there, they should probably focus on them as characters who were abused by other characters instead of whether gender dynamics make it more or less serious. It's all serious.

I didn't take much of it as bragging tbh (apart from the obvious bragging parts) but as fun childhood anecdotes - you can meet both of the creatures he summoned after all - which he uses to befriend you and persuade you that he is more use than trouble. Persuasion is after all his dialogue proficiency so it makes sense he uses it with you - and with Mystra. It's odd how this act is sometimes held against him "because he should have been happy with what he had" isn't defying the Gods the main content of the game? And aren't many Tavs gobbling up special unique buffs and powers right left and center?

In general, I don't like how patronising the player dialogue gets when talking about power. In Gale's case, when you discuss his plans of not-quite-godhood with him two of the options are something along the lines of "I love you for the man you are are, not the god you'd pretend to be" and the usual "power corrupts" both feel very moralising to me (the "pretend" is bothering me in the first one). At this point the characters have had enough brushes with the gods to give you a multitude of arguments against Gale's plan. I would have loved real arguments based on previous experiences, as they would have helped to show your connection through the experiences you shared. A discussion based on reasonable arguments would also feel more suitable to convince an INT-based character like Gale.

There are also a few moments in which I'd like an option to take his side or at least talk to him afterwards. There is this moment you can get with Lorroakan on the no-godhood path, which makes it pretty clear that Gale's Folly has also made him a bit of a laughing stock in the academic community. This was previously only hinted at at best (It certainly puts a new light on his year in solitude.) and it's a topic worth a discussion, if only to check if he is alright after the scene.

I've actually done a bunch of analysis on this lol, and it's something I find insanely interesting! I do think talking Gale down from godhood is the right call myself, but not because godhood would be an immoral choice. What Mystra is doing is unconscionable imo and a mortal would be totally within bounds to unseat her for it. It's not a matter of Gale being less in any way either. I just think godhood would be personally, psychologically bad for him. (Plus what happened to Karsus is I-have-no-mouth-and-I-must-scream material that just isn't worth it lol.)

I figure Gale buries his self-esteem issues under stuff. Magic, wealth, education, etc. If you strip those things away and leave him as just a person he does not see anything of value there. He uses other things to try and create lifelines for when he thinks his existence has nothing to offer by itself and the world would be better off without him. 'I might be a worthless person but at least I'm smart. At least I'm powerful. At least I'm influential.' The root of the problem is that he thinks he's worthless. He's never been worthless. With god!Gale, he buries that insecurity under so much stuff that he'll be hard-pressed to address it in any meaningful way again. He'll never know for sure whether a romanced player chose to be with him because they believed he could ascend to godhood--giving them perks from such a powerful partner. He'll never know if anyone likes him as a person instead of the stuff he's accumulated. Alternate readings are totally possible ofc, but that's mine.

So I don't personally mind the 'god you pretend to be' line because I figure it speaks more to Gale trying to bury himself under whatever qualities, skills, achievements, or possessions he finds impressive. I interpret it as 'you don't need stuff to impress me'. I'm also in what's probably a weird minority position where I don't think Gale is ambitious for its own sake so much as he uses ambition as a crutch against his mental health issues. Characters who try to bend and expand what magic is capable of achieving purely because they love the challenge of it I'd say are more fitting there. Even characters who get joy from competing with one another would qualify imo. But ambition itself doesn't strike me as Gale's end goal. Think the guy just wants to know he's not replaceable and is worth caring about as a person. Way more mundane desire but Gale's depressed and traumatized so it seems unattainable to him. If he gives up on being cared about, he'll put all of his efforts into being irreplaceable through unrivaled ability. Means to an end does not true ambition make imo.

Also though, YEAH SAME ON THE LORROAKAN SCENE. I'm kind of grossed out but not surprised Mystra spread word of that the way she did too. Not because she's caricature evil or anything, I think she has complexes tied to the Karsus incident and subsequent deaths so she's doing her best to control wizards. She'd want to discourage similar activity, so what better way than to make an example of Gale? Still abusive as hell though.

And with bragging, I didn't figure him mentioning Tara and the mephit were part of that tbh. The yawning portal story might have qualified a bit where anecdotes are concerned but it also read to me like he was so impressed by the player that he wanted to impress back. Wasn't offended, just seemed a little awkward on his end in a realistic way. Also makes sense to me that the stories he tells are ones where he's trying to make himself look good. Especially early on, he's afraid the group will abandon him somewhere to explode if he isn't seen as bringing something of value to the table. Since dude's depressed + brought down to level one, he doesn't see himself as bringing much to the table except burdens and added threats. Guy's desperately trying to compensate.

Wow... that was... a rather impressive post.

The "pretend" bothers me because it is not true. He wouldn't be a pretend god, he would be a real god and it still would be a shame to loose the human for it. Many of the Gods we deal with were mortal once, Mystra was mortal once but in becoming gods they became focused on their domain and lost parts of themselves. Gale knows that, he even says it about Mystra, but when spinning his idealistic tale about bettering the gods, he completely forgets about this. Probably mostly because the godhood thing is a way out for him, revenge against the goddess who wronged him and getting rid of all the human aspects of himself which he doesn't think much of. The "god you'd pretend to be" is dismissive of him and his vision, if you take the pretend out and say "the man you are is worth more than the god you could be" there you have statement that hits - and also reflects disregard for all the divines who have treated you as their playthings until now.


I think there are two sides to ambition, the magical side and the renown side. He totally is an ambitious wizards, is insanely curious, loves a challenge and needs to understand everything. That's what he is personally proud of and that never goes away, even in his human epilogues. Then there is the side of public acknowledgement, of fame and being respected, that's the crutch. It's this sentiment that made him pick his monicker because his family name doesn't sound like much. If you look at the other wizards we meet, Rolan and Lorroakan, one can imagine why, wizard academia seems to be extremely cut-throat and place importance only on individual power and prestige. I'd go as far as to say this environment might be the reason for his mental health issues. For a long while he was only valued as a great wizard (or at least that's what he thought) and then suddenly all that power was gone and he was worthless in his own eyes and those of his envious peers. The need for fame is the part of ambition that his human self gets rid of - and the one thing that is left to his god self.

In that conversation Lorroakan mocks him for following around some adventurer and Gale begrudgingly says, that it's his choice to do so. I would just like for an opportunity to tell him how much I value him, his exposition and his expertly timed counter spells. It would be a nice opportunity to show the value of a group against that individualistic wizard behaviour too.


I don't think she did. I figured that was the academic grapevine. You probably notice when a famed wizard suddenly goes into hiding and never leaves his tower. There probably was a lot of gossip.

I hope not either, but there's actually a third example - Halsin - which makes me think we're looking at a real pattern. Fortunately they did sort of address that issue with Halsin by adding some new, more thoughtful content later.

I agree. I'm impressed by the quality of the writing and the strength of the authors convictions. I also strongly disagree with the premise. I don't think Gale was victimized by Mystra and find the comparison of Gale's treatment to that of child abuse . . . supercilious? It's overly strong analogue to apply to a silly story. Child abuse is a very serious issue and shouldn't be invoked in such a manner.

If Gale blows himself up he is all but assured a place in the afterlife with Mystra. Someone who is always asking to be directed to a good library is ends up spending eternity in the best library in existence. When Gale was a chosen he was granted god level health (passive regeneration, immunity to aging and most diseases), immunity to a host of spells, the ability to free cast some spells and the ability to use silverfire. As long as you don't die in a vat of acid you are immortal - no need for mephits or underemployed death gods. Gale was also free to form any sort of romantic relationship he wanted with mortals or other gods. Being chosen is not nice thing and is not abusive. My Tav would take the offer in an instant.

What Gale did was not evil but he created quite a mess. Mystra is both the internet and the sysadmin of the internet. Gale was someone who downloaded a virus that destroyed his laptop and and is now spreading to other computers. Were Mystra vindictive she could launch Gale into the shadowfell and let his orb detonate there. Instead she lets the virus spread across the internet in the hopes that Gale would use this crisis as an opportunity to show he is worthy of his status as a chosen. If Mystra is to be faulted for anything it's putting her personal feelings before her duties as sysadmin. How many servers did that virus take down before Gale fixed his mistake? How much of the weave fell victim to Gale's Folly?

Granted I've not romanced Gale so I only know him as a companion and my cleric of Mystra made it clear she didn't want hear him talk about her god as if she were a crazy ex so I don't have all the dialogues others do but I think Mystra treated Gale rather well. And of course she forgives him every time he fails to enact her plan . . .

Hope it was fun! Analysis is my jam, but also sorry for length lol. I'm horrendous at short.



Intended gently from me--I think this is an interpretative choice on your end same as the version I described is an interpretive choice on mine. There are aspects of writing that are decisive and (DARE I SAY) absolute--but there are others that are more ambiguous. The latter work similarly to optical illusions where different audience members come away with different reads.

I don't take the 'god you pretend to be' line as purely literal, but as a reflection of what godhood/Gale trying to improve himself as much as possible through stuff would mean. By my read, it's less about functionally becoming a god and more about Gale abandoning himself the way he's feared everyone else would. Akin to outright burying the personal self.

If the line is taken in an exclusively literal sense, then it carries a connotation closer to what you described. But people don't speak in exclusively literal terms. For me, it was far more intuitive and tonally consistent for the line to suggest the player is elevating Gale's personal identity irrespective of power.

With the same intended gentleness, I do think it's important to be careful about what is claimed as objective fact versus what is interpretive choice. I figure you and I are fine and just sort of comparing notes here, but holy crap are some corners of the internet winding themselves up needlessly.


I told ya my ambition bit was controversial lol! ;P I may need to respectfully disagree, but like--the respect is sincere, I know this is an odd take and a lot hinges on personal definitions of ambition.

I figure Gale still genuinely loves magic in his human epilogue, but having seen a slew of other archwizards in the Forgotten Realms (including Daurgothoth, who far as I'm concerned is the pinnacle)--I'd argue the epilogue shows Gale finds contentment in a quiet, non-ambitious life teaching. He wants to share his knowledge with others and give them tools to find joy in magic for its own sake. He does offer to teach all subjects since he knows them, but that's not reasonable on a bunch of levels including 'humans do need sleep sometimes'.

Gale in his human ending doesn't appear focused on testing or pushing the limits of magic himself or impressing others, but in spreading understanding of magic among students so they can succeed to their best ability. It isn't about elevating himself to a singular and irreplaceable position (god!Gale) but specifically sharing tools and resources so that others have a better chance of success themselves. Combine this with Gale abandoning 'the Wizard of Waterdeep' (pompous, in his own words) to be just a normal guy with a normal first and last name... he seems finally at peace with being himelf.

Guy still loves magic, same as a writer might love writing or an artist might love drawing. Gale just doesn't need to be better than everyone else at it anymore to find personal value. At least, that's how I read the human ending.


I analyzed this on another website in more detail, but 1) I agree 2) I think this is by design, by Mystra, who 5000% has motive given her own situation and psychology. It's okay if you prefer to read it differently ofc, this is another spot where loads of debate exists.


I saw the scene--personally idk if I'd call gale begrudging exactly so much as it's not something he's quite comfortable talking to Lorroakan about for the simple reason that Lorroakan is an asshole lol. But I'm with you on preferring to let Gale know the player character cares more and checking in.



See I figure people noticed he was missing, and there was gossip. But I also think Lorroakan had too many personal details not to have word from Mystra. Fits with Mystra's past behavior trying to warn followers away from doing certain things (IIRC she did some of this after the fall of Netheril and possibly a bit after Midnight ascended) along with her psych profile/what she fears for herself. Not including here because it would be an irredeemably long tangent on an already monstrous post, but I seriously loved analyzing Mystra. Wild narrative parallels, super manipulative and kind of tragic imo. But readings on Mystra are also controversial and subject to debate even without continuity questions. So again, all good if you have a different interpretation from me.




YEAH I DIDN'T WANT TO GET AHEAD OF MYSELF SINCE I DIDN'T EXPERIENCE THAT BACKSTORY FIRSTHAND, BUT SEEMS LIKE ANOTHER CASE. I am glad it's been addressed somewhat at least, but agreed it seems like a pattern. Denial of women's wrongs has been a running issue across multiple fandoms for me lately and it's so creepy.

Both Midnight-Mystra and Kelemvor were put on trial and she was forbidden from cutting evil mortals off from the weave. There's also a practical implication - anyone who is cut off from the weave can use the shadow weave instead.

Mystra is like a sysadmin who doesn't care if someone hosts silkroad 2.0 on their machine but she does care if people start to hack the server and threaten to bring everything down. She's especially lenient towards evil mages who create interesting new spells. Larloch lived for centuries, he was as evil as the day was long and Mystra never rescinded his chosen of Mystryl status.

It just happens that Gale's Hubris led him to do the one thing she couldn't ignore - brought forth a threat that could destroy all magic.

Thank you sincerely, but I also think we can both see we have dramatically different reads. Where I stand that's okay (answer meant in the spirit of your comment, no animosity), and I figure that Forgotten Realms canon shifts in characterization at times. Not uncommon for long-term, multi-creator media. Mystra being framed as she has been in Baldur's Gate 3 is very compelling and makes a lot of sense in my opinion, but I understand it may be jarring compared to other iterations of her. I've winced at lore videos made pre-game where Mystra was someone's favorite goddess, because that is a dramatically different and extremely dark shift.

I do want to assure you specifically that I've done my homework though, am taking this seriously on my end, and don't make the claims I do without evidence.

In the interest of transparency I've seen people float quotes about how all of the companions are victims of abuse. I cannot for the life of me recall which interview it came from or who specifically stated as such, so grain of salt there/this is like citing wikipedia. I do have definitive quotes alluding to Mystra's child abuse within the game though.

Minsc, discussing Gale's relationship with Mystra:

"Gale reminds me of the vremyonni of my homeland. The man-mages of Rashemen. While the girl-folk go on to rule as wychlaran, Weave-touched boys were hidden away. Trained to work their craft in silence and secrecy. It is an old custom, not well-observed. In truth I thought it born of caution, after some catastrophe wrought by wizardly men-folk of old. Now I wonder if it was not done to hide them from Mystra, and the snares she sets for young and prideful boys, hm?"

Tying this to analysis I've done elsewhere:

Gale has, by his own admission, been involved with the Weave for as long as he can remember. He sees Mystra as synonymous with the Weave, and with magic. These are things he explicitly states within the game. Gale also has notable reactions to say, saving Arabella from being killed over the idol of Silvanus or Mirkon from harpies. With Arabella especially, the idea of being treated as unforgivable or deserving death for a youthful mistake is something he talks about as if he has some experience with it. And while this is a video game with limited character models, I'm going to estimate that the tiefling kids are probably somewhere between eight and thirteen.

We know Gale has been stuck largely alone in his tower with the orb for a year or so. The orb specifically is something that happened when he was an adult, but the way he talks about Arabella with implicit personal identification of facing older authority figures as a young person who didn't know better... I don't think this is the orb alone troubling him. It's also worth noting that Mystra sent Elminster to Gale when Gale was eight years old canonically, so she was at least watching and involved to some extent from the time that Gale was eight. This is revealed in Elminster's letter in (IIRC) the god!Gale ending.

I've seen people try to argue that Mystra would have been indisposed/dead and unable to take advantage of Gale when he was a kid due to the broader Forgotten Realms timeline. I'm inclined to say in this instance, with all evidence in the narrative pointing to a particular arc and theme for Gale and Mystra's relationship, it's more likely that the timeline was something Larian chose to fudge in the interest of storytelling opportunities. The alternative would be that none of those dialogue exchanges meant anything. The narrative is weakened if those moments are made meaningless, and the characters become flatter and less credible without them too. If it comes between trivia and the emotional core of a story, I'd argue the core wins.

Gale claims to have slept with other people before Mystra, but that a romanced character is the first person he's slept with after her. I personally suspect it wasn't a lot of prior experience, and he was pretty young when his romance with Mystra began. Additionally, while it's pure conjecture on my part--given how Gale reacts to the tiefling kids it would make sense to me if Mystra started grooming him when he was between eight and thirteen years old.

[...]

I also want to express to you, as someone who has been involved with media for similar popular nerd properties in both a consumer and company capacity--child abuse is very much examined in works like this. Fiction, be it speculative media or realistic fiction, is a safer way to examine these subjects than nonfiction where real and specific human beings are attached. Because it is a very heavy subject, such narratives won't be what everyone is comfortable engaging--but it is absolutely within grounds for creators to tell those stories regardless. Speculative fiction allows audiences to connect with human beings who may have experienced very different lives and circumstances than them, but who share common humanity as it were. What aspects of humanity are shown depend on the storyteller and the story itself, but it isn't inherently trivialized or framed with less seriousness than examination of the topic in a different time period or part of the world. Additionally, you could argue Astarion being subjected to enslavement and rape for two hundred years is an overly strong analogue to apply to a 'silly story'--but it is canon. This is the story being told in Baldur's Gate 3. Touching upon child abuse in a story built to examine abuse across cast members would not be out of place thematically or in terms of severity. Whether the abuse is examined effectively and respectfully might be subject to examination, but it does have a place in storytelling and evidence suggests it was incorporated deliberately here.

I have more commentary on Mystra and how she addresses Gale regarding the Karsic Weave, but 1) more long 2) my goal here isn't actually to convert you into agreeing with me. This is just showing that I am not pulling stuff out of my ass, and am not being unreasonable in my read. I do think Mystra's abuse was extremely insidious and horrifying, but I think it was all filtered firmly through Mystra's own perceptions, priorities, and self-justification. She genuinely does not think she did anything wrong. She is framing herself in that belief. It is for audiences to reconcile what she says with the rest of the situation, as well as what she omits or disregards. If you went in with a version of Mystra you wanted and are unwilling to consider anything that doesn't fit that version, then this might not be a particular story or examination you prefer for yourself. As a fan you're allowed to pick and choose between different canons though, and genuinely I do get it.

I'm going to work backwards some:


Minsc is not a reliable reporter. Ever. At all.

(from memory) " do you think Minsc could forget all of that?! . . . You are right! Minsc has forgotten it all "

But he's not the only one confused, no Rahsmeni man knows the reason behind this practice.

Rashmen is a Matriarchy and, like Barbieland, it has it's injustices. But the reason behind this practice is not to hide boys from Mystra, it's to prevent the restoration of the demonic patriarchy that used to rule the Rashmeni lands. Before there was a Rashamen there was another country in a continual state of war of the demon-worshiping patriarchy of Narfel. The men who ruled proto-rashmen used forbidden magic to take down narfel and in doing so destroyed both themselves the patriarchs of Nar. The Wyclaran matriarch keep these secrets - including Imaskari secrets hateful to the gods - but keep them out of the hands of men because they fear that the demonic spirits that remain in Rashemen will whisper to them about the glories of a restored demonic patriarchy.

This doesn't justify the injustices of Rashemen but does explain it . . .

Long story short, Minsc is wrong.

The timeline is also problematic. How old is Gale? Late 30s? Early 40s? From appearances alone he looks mid 40s. While his prodigal talents might have captured Mystra's interests before then there is no reason to believe that she started the romantic relationship at an earlier age than she started her relationships with other chosen - mid 20s in Elminster's case. This even bolstered by the evidence that he had lovers before Mystra.


As to the identification with Arabella it may indeed be the that Gale identifies with her because he wishes that the mistake he made as an adult could be treated as a youthful indiscretion. But the 40 year Gale was not literally a child. Given the tremendous differences in power between Gale and Mystra he might feel like a child when dealing with her but, again, he was not actually a child.


(although in terms of chronological age Mystra-Midnight is younger than Jaheria. And probably younger than both Halsin and Dame Aylin)

Now if you think than any age / power gap relationship is so problematic as to be criminal and are willing to apply this to similar figures like Isobel and Aylin you would be on solid ground. If you think that Isobel's early faith in the Moonmaiden was a form of grooming that set her up for an inherently abusive relationship with the Selune's daughter you are standing on solid ground. But by suggesting that Gale was not at least in his 20s when the romantic relationship started you are on building a castle on a weak foundation.

And you are placing a very great a weight on a rotten beam.



Lovely. Ah! I wish I could write as well as you. But beautiful words are not always true and true words are not always beautiful. You are right to say that fiction can be a safe way to explore heavy subjects BUT, as you have acknowledged, you also need to ask if your treatment of the matter trivializes it.

And, my articulate interlocutor, I fear you you have done just that. You have trivialized the issue of child sexual assault in by applying to the silly story of Gale and Mystra.

This is indeed a silly story in a way that Astarian's is not. The child abuse analogue is a reaaaaal stretch. Beautifully written, well researched and well argued. But it's a tin foil hat theory that is shoehorned into an abuse story in a way Astarian's is not. ( said fondly, ** the rabbit re adjusts their own foil hat to ensure ears are covered ** )


Astarian's story is, root and branch, a story of abuse. One of the first sincere things he says to Tav is "I was a slave . . ." And, of course, we have more than a century and half of vampire stories that deal with this weighty topic. Even if Astarian's story was a weak one (it's not) it would under-girded by decades of vampire stories that addressed these same issues.

Do you know the comic book the Killing Joke? Even if you haven't read it you probably know it because it has influenced every "dark" version of Batman since the 90s. It's easy to find nerds who celebrate it and credit it with establishing graphic novels as a form of literature.

What's less well known is that the author of that book has decided that the critics were correct and he has denounced his own book. He decided that a comic book could not deal with an issue as weighty as sexual assault and that his use of it in the story was exploitative. And I have enormous respect for his decision to do so!

Now if one of the most influential and celebrated products of nerd culture failed to carry the weight of a topic as heavy as adult sexual assault do you think a fan theory about a video game is suited to the task of allowing us to explore the issue of child sexual assault? I don't and I do think it trivializes a very important issue.


But this isn't that is it? It's not an examination, it's a fan theory. And, frankly, it's a slightly offensive one.

Chaps, I really like reading the back and forth here. And it had me wondering for a while...

What is the objective? I'm not too sure I can say what I mean here... I've seen people debate on why Mace Windu's lightsaber is purple, but I know that the real reason is, is that Sam Jackson asked for one.

And, now we have this game with the characters therein. And for the vast, vast majority - they are rather, well shallow. Cartoonish, even. Case in point - It's from the same people that gave you writing like: "He must lead the Murder March to Baldur's Grave' and "Well, if you can defeat the dragon, we don't really need him'. Granted, it's not all that bad, but I largely think the writing team isn't capable and/or was ever inclined to write something as deep as is discussed here.

Especially considering the reason this thread exists in the first place.
I'm by no means asking or telling to not analyze this further, I rather enjoy it. I'm just curious on 'where could this possibly lead?'

First let me say that is so nice to see actual character discussion here. It was a treat to open this threat and be greeted by scrolls of text.

Concerning the relationship of Gale and Mystra, to throw in a third take, I didn't take it completely literally.

When Gale first introduces us to Mystra, it is as a concept, not as a person. She is magic but she is also his whole universe, nothing matters to him more than magic. If you participate in his magic lesson, you get a sense of what the Weave feels like and I wonder if I am the only one who thought this description of harmony and well being felt positively addictive? You can take the scene as a step to start a romance with him and I figured that his romance with magic began in much the same way.

From Elminster's letter we know he was a sensitive child who cried over a rose bush he accidentally set on fire, from his stories we can suss out that he was probably also quite lonely, after all his best friend is a tressym whom he summoned. Imagine what the Weave as described in the magic lesson scene must feel like to that lonely boy, it's a place of refuge, of beauty, of creation and of what ever feels most harmonic to you in the moment. Additionally magic probably was a place of confidence for little Gale because he was apparently always very good at handling it. Mystra as an entity does not have to be a seductress for magic to be a seducer.

So Gale loves his craft, is devoted to it and yearns to be ever better at it, to a point where he does everything to push its boundaries and his own limits in handling it. The result is that Gale ends up with a dark vortex in his chest that devours all his magic and still needs to be fed even more magic, so that he cannot simply rest because that would be his death. All of his life up to this point has been filled with his craft and his academic success and suddenly he cannot deliver anymore. To me that very much sounds like artistic - or in this case magical - burnout and a very skewed work-life-balance.

Here also the place where Gale never being told that he as a person is valuable comes into play. Both Elminster and Tara clearly love Gale but they never actually tell him (unless you go down the God path ironically) it's always "you have a good head on your shoulders" or "examine the problem as a proper wizard should" and I assume it was never different for him. Tara especially is a very bossy cat-auntie, telling him what to do frequently, did you eat enough, your camp is a well appointed ditch, shave that beard, your mom worries ... When she has her emotional outburst after Elminster's visit one of the versions that the scene can end is that she tells you that the two of you shouldn't cause a scene. This sense of what he should do, is very present in much of Gale's dialogue. When you talk with him about Sharan Shadow magic, he sounds tempted to give it a try and sees nothing evil within it but that Mystra forbids it.

I think that part of why he relates to the Tiefling children so much is because he yearns for that time when he could break rules without dire consequences, now as an adult the result of his (perceived) transgression against the rules is firmly lodged in his chest and is killing him. So why is that? Because he was greedy and power hungry? Or because he was made to believe that he only mattered if he was the best, most skilled that is, wizard possible?

If Astarion is "the body" who gets exploited and mistreated as a sex-object, Gale is "the mind", the skilled worker who gets exploited for his abilities and is then shamed when he can no longer deliver. In Act 2 - which generally deals with the characters' believes and faith - Astarion realises he does not want to be seen as an object of sexual desire any longer and Gale realises that he does not want to die for his craft. If he tells Mystra that he does not want to die and that there is more for him in life, (I like his Origin version of the audience much, much better than the companion version, it can have so much more nuance to it.) he is given a way out. Giving away the crown is putting that burning hunger for recognition aside, while taking it and becoming the God of Ambition, is "powering through" but apparently loosing all the love he once held for his craft and its beauty. It's blind, purposeless ambition, seeking fame for fame's sake. I like how in the good ending of his origin, Mystra seems to be genuinely pleased to let him go and have him start his new life. He and his beloved craft are friends again. That's nice and lovely.

So would I say it is a story of abuse - of adults and gifted children alike - yes, but a story of how society ruins skilled, talented people not a story of sexual abuse, that side of the coin is Astarion's. How much Mystra as the goddess of magic is responsible for the toxic atmosphere in wizard academia however, that's another topic.


I think it depends how you define ambition. Maybe saying that he has a bit of an over-achiever mindset fits it better? In his human professor ending he wanted to teach all the subjects at first after all, but the academy wouldn't allow it. That sounded very Gale to me.

In my two completed saves I chose the adventurer ending for him, partly because in both saves he ended up with Astarion and if you romance Spawnstarion you always seem to be flagged as adventuring by the game. In both versions (the origin and companion version) he seems to be very much at ease with himself, but also pursuing knowledge. Most of his personalised lines in the origin are about learning spells. To Halsin he mentions delving into dungeons, taking out rogue shadow mages and studying magical tomes - and in my special case he discusses searching a cure for vampirism with Minsc (and Boo). His companion-adventurer ending sounds the least traditionally ambitious to me. Gale puts more emphasis on learning from life than from books in this one, he takes time for his artistic interest (Which now included knitting, which I absolutely love because it's such a thing for people with a logical mindset and of course there is this connection to creating something with one strand of yarn, just that it isn't weaving it's a different thing.) and Tara scolds him for putting his traditional studies aside. He cares very little for public recognition in this ending but he still likes for his partner to recognise his magical skill.

An artist can be passionate and ambitious about their craft, but they can be both ambitious in an unhealthy and a healthy manner. I think Gale's approach to magic was very unhealthy in the beginning and before that start of the game, in the human endings he has a better approach to magic and life in general. He still seems to be very passionate about it and I have an inkling that his "spot of knitting" results in him producing the most complex lace shawls for the sheer fun and enjoyment of it.

Of course that seems very tame in comparison to the Archwizards you mentioned and I think we don't disagree in content but more in word definition.


You are probably right in that begrudging is the wrong word. I'd go as far as to say that he probably isn't completely comfortable with the whole concept himself yet. If you click the mental-health-tracker in the romance dialogue, he says how making decisions with someone else and not trusting in himself alone is still a very new notion for him. He is much more comfortable with it in the epilogues, especially in the adventuring one.

There were other things I wanted to comment on but I think I'll better post this now as it has already gotten very long and I am unsure for how long my lucky dice for forum posts last today. So just let me close by saying that I very much enjoy this conversation.

I think it's fair to say that Gale's relationship with Mystra isn't meant to be analogous to child abuse in our real world, but it is meant to (nonetheless) be an incredibly toxic and dysfunctional relationship that is arguably still a flavor of abusive if not outright abuse itself.

Gale was (presumably) an adult when he began his sexual relationship with Mystra, but:
1) she was his goddess
2) he had known her since he was underage (so "grooming" allegations can still apply in a manner of speaking, although given the way gods work in the Forgotten Realms it is complicated)

That layers on some definite "ick" no matter how you slice it, because the power imbalance is incomprehensible. Even if Gale "pursued" Mystra, she had every scrap of power, authority, and the position to tell Gale "no," and, quite frankly, should've known better.

Now, Gale did overstep Mystra's boundaries when he sought the Netherese orb, and that is where a lot of criticism of Gale comes into play (and it was an egotistical and self-serving act under the surface), BUT--
1) Mystra never once told him what it was (and Gale never even learns about its nature until Act 3 of the game); yeah, what he did was dangerous, but he had no clue what he was doing. It was foolish, but not malevolent.
2) Mystra had the power to deal with the orb at any time (as she is capable of removing it after the events of the game)
3) Gale only sought the orb once Mystra had shown Gale beyond the veil and told him he could never have it (again a case of "Mystra should've known better than to taunt a wizard with forbidden and unreachable magics")

This means that while, yeah, Mystra could've smited Gale or whatever for disobeying her, she instead left him to suffer with this agonizing, debilitating condition without any possible solution to it, until she later sends Elminster (a grandfather figure to Gale) to tell him to kill himself. This when she could've cured him, given him a heads up, explained what happened, but she never tells him anything. Just leaves him in a lurch.

I do tend to interpret this as "a test" of sorts that Mystra was giving Gale: to see if he would turn out to be another Karsus or whether he just made a mistake. And, depending on the events of the game, those are the two possible roads: either it is that Gale made a mistake, grows from it, or Gale succumbs to his worse traits and overreaches further to become a god.

But a person's romantic partner shouldn't put them through some trial-and-error, twisted mind games like that. That's where their dynamic just becomes gross to me. It is one thing if Mystra remained Gale's cold and aloof goddess with whom he had a strained relationship, instead there's the element of that was his lover too. And I think that goes to explain a lot of why Gale has such an inferiority complex simmering under his blustering ego. He wants to be equal to his partner, knowing he never can. It was never going to work out and was just an exercise in torment.

Killer Rabbit.

1) You cannot willfully ignore evidence within a narrative then judge that narrative using a pre-assumed conclusion from external sources, create double standards between which cast members are and are not allowed to suffer abuse according to your own biases, and claim personal authority over which narratives (or readings) are and are not permitted to be explored. You are not the authority on writing or morality. No one is. You overstepped both analytically and on a personal level with me. You do not know me. I have gone out of my way to be polite and considerate toward you despite strong differences in opinion. You do not know my life experiences or why I personally care so much about this subject being navigated appropriately. You have assumed, mocked, and twisted words in bad faith throughout our exchange.

2) Narratives operate on implicit as well as explicit evidence. Both count as valid storytelling technique. Both are used as evidence to support analysis. Explicit storytelling involves being exposed to information directly in immediate situations or communication by cast members. Implicit storytelling requires paying attention to context clues, character behavior, the environment, symbolism, foreshadowing, etc. then reading between the lines to find meaning. Implicit storytelling can involve some understanding of how narrative arcs and human psychology work, as well as putting information together to create a cohesive whole.

One of the most textbook examples of implicit storytelling reads "For Sale: Baby shoes, never worn." This suggests that someone was expecting and excited for a baby (bought shoes in advance) only to lose the baby before it could wear the shoes bought for it. According to your discussion, I suspect you would engage this piece trying to argue 'the baby shoes were the wrong size' or 'someone didn't like those baby shoes after all'. You and I will not be able to have meaningful discussions regarding explicit versus implicit storytelling for this reason.

3) You appear to have misconceptions about what grooming is versus what it isn't. Because of this it seems you have an incorrect read of the situation I have been describing with regards to Gale and Mystra. Grooming does not necessitate physical assault. It is when an adult takes advantage of the vulnerability of a minor with the goal of conditioning them to be more compliant and accepting of advances. It still counts as grooming if the adult swoops in the moment the minor turns eighteen, having normalized their advances before then. It still counts if the subject turns twenty, or twenty five, or whatever age. It still counts if the preparation was there but isn't ultimately realized by the groomer. This situation does not prevent Gale from having other relationships during adolescence or early adulthood while being subjected to grooming. He would still be a victim of grooming if Mystra instigated the relationship at a later point in time. Adults who were groomed as children are still victims of abuse. Age gap relationships and divine/mortal relationships are not generally presumed to involve grooming. I find it not only disingenuous that you suggested as much but outright disturbing that you don't appear to recognize the difference.

4) Minsc has aspects of his character that are meant to be jokes. Not everything he says, does, or experiences is written to be a joke. He would be a poorer character if he was, particularly within the narrative of Baldur's Gate 3. This is very basic character construction. There is no reality in which the dialogue I presented was included to be a joke, meaningless, or discarded out of hand. The subject matter and implications are simply too heavy for that. For people who prefer to read it without the undertone, there is room to argue there are other types of 'snares she sets for young and prideful boys'. I don't personally think that implication is as strong given the relationship as context, but there is plausible room to opt out.

5) The words I used were only tools to communicate. Good faith may help improve yours. It does a lot for for prettiness when you're sincerely trying to express an idea to someone instead of lashing out.

6) Hierarchies of suffering and abuse (as you've insisted upon employing with Asterion) are deeply offensive and actually serve to harm victims of abuse through invalidation. Discussing the existence of child abuse in storytelling does not do this. You decided that Gale was not allowed to be victimized by Mystra without so much as entertaining the possibility because you were biased toward Mystra from the outset and inflexible in your perception of her. You deliberately opted not to engage with Gale's character by your own admission because of this, labeling any expression of pain on his part as him painting Mystra as his crazy ex. You also lack the humility to acknowledge your subjective choice regarding which narrative receives priority. Your preference has zero bearing on which version of Mystra is inherently more valid.

It comes across that you referred to the possibility of Gale being groomed by Mystra (or being a victim of abuse generally) as 'silly' solely because you like Mystra and do not want to entertain the possibility that there is a version of her that would commit such acts. I specifically tried to give you an out for that scenario with 'choose your canon' since it would allow you to preserve your favored version of Mystra regardless of anything in BG3. This was an attempt to spare you discomfort. You ignored it to be aggressive instead. I don't think you're prepared to navigate the possibility of defending a character within a specific narrative where she is an abuser, or the possibility that you have been actively denouncing her victim's trauma along with evidence of that abuse to preserve your own sense of moral certainty. Being mindful that this is fiction, your entire position hinges on denying the possibility of your having expressed cruelty, trivialization, and disdain for a character who is a victim while championing his abuser.

It wouldn't be hard to say 'I find this reading inconsistent with my understanding of Mystra from other material, and am not using it.' You're allowed to do that. There's nothing wrong with doing that.

Instead, you have behaved with the presumption that you are incapable of being unjustly cruel or disdainful while remaining enthusiastic in your cruelty and disdain. Your entire reply is characterized by the belief that you couldn't possibly misjudge regardless of whether you bothered to engage the story at all. You have shown the same presumption, judgment, and hostility to me (a stranger) because we disagree on a matter of storytelling. You're not the exception to human fallibility and you don't know everything.

7) Solely because you raised the subject, Alan Moore explicitly stated that Barbara Gordon was paralyzed and sexually assaulted in The Killing Joke--but nothing beyond that. It would be sexual assault, but not rape by his claim. Death of the author means readers can agree or disagree regarding Alan Moore's explanation according to the work presented. The regret Alan Moore expressed reflected framing Barbara's suffering as a narrative device within a story that wasn't about her experience, but as a tool to torment her father. He additionally had no intention for Barbara's paralysis to be a sticking feature in continuity and (with that particularly in-mind) did not feel he did her story justice. The problem was not that she was paralyzed and sexually assaulted within a narrative. This is unfortunately something that happens to human beings and we are allowed to examine those horrors in fiction. If the interpretation included rape, that also would have been narratively acceptable to examine as a part of human experience. The element that Alan Moore regretted specifically had to do with not treating Barbara as a person of equal weight to Batman and Jim Gordon in The Killing Joke. Alan Moore certainly never said that it was impossible to examine sexual assault through a comic medium or even in superhero comics specifically, which is obvious from his body of work and if you know anything about Alan Moore's creative philosophy. He didn't even advocate for more conservative presentations of such violence.

It matters if a character's trauma is treated as a prop in someone else's story or if the story is specifically about them going through that traumatic experience. The takeaway from The Killing Joke should not be that such horror and trauma can never be depicted, but that horror and trauma must be afforded weight and identified with by the reader as 'default' as opposed to 'other'.

There is plenty of subject matter to discuss about The Killing Joke. It is an important and influential comic. It isn't my favorite, is flawed, is still worth discussing for the places it falls short as well as where it succeeds. While talented, Alan Moore isn't my favorite creator either. There are works of his I disagree with and find uncomfortable by Moore's own design.

And frankly, if Moore changed his answer to advocate censorship of any medium later I would lose respect for Moore over it and consider him a hypocrite. Particularly after Lost Girls and Watchmen.

8) I have been careful to state anytime I discuss the reading that Mystra groomed Gale, and will reiterate--it's a possibility that has evidence behind it, but it is not a mandate to interpret said evidence that way. I personally think the evidence supports the read. I have reasons I've gone with that interpretation. It's also totally fine to read the examples provided differently. Understanding how a conclusion was reached does not require agreeing with the conclusion. Being insulting is unnecessary.

I am surprised that the interpretation wasn't something known or discussed here previously because it is not only prevalent in other fan circles, but an additional factor feeding anger from many fans toward Larian due to the IGN interview coupled with instances of insulting Gale on subjects related to his trauma within the narrative. The outrage is at a point where I can't even browse tags without encountering that anger from other fans. I came to the forums because I don't think the worst interpretations of the interview or dialogue options were intended on Larian's part, and wanted to articulate any concerns with that benefit of the doubt rather than have Larian exposed purely via people wound up out of their minds taking the worst readings as true. There are multiple developers at Larian working on different areas of the narrative and my impression is that they have varying awareness/involvement on other parts. I can absolutely imagine confusion at why fans are having such an intense reaction particularly if that subtext possibility wasn't accounted for by interviewees focused on other areas. My first message in this thread essentially said it might be a good idea to clarify if the devs aren't advocating that Gale should die because he's annoying on a personal level. I don't think that's what they meant, but that interpretation is so goddamn common it might be worth it to just clarify if that wasn't the intent. I think clarifying might de-escalate the discussions going on.

With those points addressed, I have no further desire to speak with you.

I'm sorry you feel that way. I was enjoying the exchange and my compliments on the quality of your writing were sincere. While I disagree profoundly it was not my intent to mock. If anything I sought to mock the quality of my own writing. Writing is a talent, a skill and while I think I have good eye for prose I don't express myself as well as I would like to.

You can choose to believe me or not but I think you are expressing yourself well even if I disagree with your conclusions and indeed believe they trivialize a matter that should not be trivialized.

There are other charges in your #1 that seem to pulled out thin air so I will afford them the attention the deserve.

But I think you are doing something a bit worse trivializing the issue:


Let's recognize that this conversation is taking place in context in which political actors are trying to generate anger over false accusations of grooming AND to expand the definition so far that it loses all meaning. For these political actors psychologists, social workers, DEI programs, sex educators, drag storyhour and even the very existence of trans people is being labeled as a form of grooming. We are living in an age where people people are being inspired to acts of violence on the basis of imaginary scenarios like pedophile rings being run out of pizza parlors.



Thanks for the out. I guess. But I didn't ask for one and I'm not granting you one. I do think it is a problem that you have headcannoned that Mystra groomed gale for sexual abuse, abused him and that Larian needs to respond to the character you imagine as if he were as he imagined. Indeed I think you should take their light hearted approach to heart: why are the authors themselves not seeing what you do? Are you right to be angry at the authors for not viewing the story as you do?

To be clear I think it's fine that you have imagined the story this way. It's even fine for you to be angry at the authors for not agreeing with your interpretation. I do think it's problematic to encourage other people to be angry at the authors for not agreeing with your head cannon.




Yes I am aware of the cycles of outrage on Reddit - Mystra is a groomer, Auntie Ethel is a anti-semetic stereotype, anyone who dislikes the emperor dislikes LGBT folk, Shadowheart is a racist etc. I think it's a virtue of these forums that those viruses have not taken hold here. I don't think the writers are to blame for the feeding the anger, the people throwing chum into to the water are feeding the fury.

To be perfectly clear I'm telling to be quiet. By all means ask that support for your preferred interpretation to be added to the game but don't try to stir outrage when people don't see the same shapes in the inkblot.


I think the grooming narrative is poorly supported. Even if it is eloquently expressed. (And, again, that was a sincere statement - you write well) But the idea that someone who believes that the support is thin or lacking is unfamiliar with the concept of implicit story telling, symbolism, subtext, innuendo etc is more insulting than anything I've said. Sometimes a reader fails to read the subtext and sometimes the dragon in the clouds exists only in the eye of the beholder; this is a clear case of the latter.

It's even more insulting when I laid out the flaws of my analysis on the table - my experience was Gale was with him as a non romanced companion and my Tav was a cleric of mystra. If you want to show me evidence I missed I'll reconsider my position but the Arabella comment and the Minsc comment is pretty thin gruel and won't sustain me on the uphill hike you are asking me to take.


Indeed. Even more offensive is invoking weighty concepts like hierarchies of abuse when talking about the shapes you see in an inkblot. If you are going to tilt at windmills you should use a lance and leave the nukes at home. I can only imagine you are going nuclear to cast me in some unfavorable light because it is a bizarre interpretation of my POV. I don't see Gale as an abusive victim. I see him as a victim of his own hubris. Not abused and abused is a not a hierarchical analysis. It just isn't.

But only since we are on the topic I confess this phrase did return to me when you seemed to make a distinction between sexual assault and rape. I tend to avoid the latter word because I know it is more likely to trigger people and because "sexual assault" emphases that this is an assault even when the wounds are not visible.



Indeed it could be because I am too stupid or too poorly educated to understand the high minded ideas that you and the other residents of Laputa deal with. Or perhaps it's because you go nuclear when someone disagrees with you.


Pot, meet kettle. You have given an account of grooming that would indict Isobel-Aylin. There is no real world equivalent but it the closest to the Gale-Mystra romance I can think of would be one of orders of nuns that consider themselves the brides of christ. They encounter divinity at an early age, find solace in it and then marry their god in adulthood.

Are those nuns grooming victims because they encountered their god at a young age?

(google "why do nuns wear wedding rings" and if you love yourself listen to Sister Wendy's description of prayer where she discusses how she asks her god to enter her body. Sadly I can't find the link but it's worth seeking out)


Indeed. Physician, I recommend a heaping dose of your own medicine.

And perhaps add a bit of soul exploring? Why are you so quick to interpret praise as mockery? Playfulness as cruelty? Truly, before I read this response I harbored no ill feelings towards you and enjoyed your contributions.

On Alan Moore. It would take me a few days to find the podcast where he *fully* denounced the Killing Joke and said that the problem was inherent to the comic book format. It won't be easy to find because it was on a podcast about Magik and not about comics but the conversation wondered. Not sure if I'm invested enough in the conversation to find that interview but if you are interested its worth seeking out. I think it was in 2006?

Guys really, can't there be a discussion about an opinion without attacking the person who expresses it? And yes, I would not interpret your tone in message #931620 as playful either, KillerRabbit. The whole message reads aggressive to me. I assume it is because the matter is important to you and you have strong feelings about it and wish the other person to see the error of their ways so to speak.

In regards to Minsc: He is a big lovable oaf but he is not a complete joke, his understanding of the world is just very simple. If you look at his comment about Gale it consists of three parts, a statement of fact, what he previously thought about it and how his thoughts have changed due to what happened to Gale. The statement of fact is "male magic users are kept from positions of power", you don't seem to question this portion, KillerRabbit. His previous thought were "because they previously caused great harm" that also seems to agree with what you wrote. The last portion is Minsc questioning his own reasoning because he now has a different understanding of the relationship a magic user can have with his goddess. This last portion isn't something he states as fact but something he is currently considering. It is - like most companion statements - intended to give you a different point of view on the situation to make up your own mind about it. Coming from Minsc it is also a strong statement because he previously did not hold much regard for wizards and now shows empathy for Gale.

The whole Chosen thing: It comes with its perks but those come at the cost of freedome. Elminster is shown to be uncomfotable delivering Mystra's charge and charm - he is stalling as much as he can - and his parting words, as well as the letter you get in Gale's origin show that he disagrees with Mystra, but he cannot disobey her and Gale understands this. Following Mystra's command and detonating the Orb is also probably the most - or at least second most - disasterous ending you can get for the game. It shows how little regard for human life Mystra has (in Gale's Origin she flat out states this during the audience) and supports what Ketheric says about the gods, that humans are mere coppers in their purses. This holds true for Mystra as well. She might care for Gale to some degree, but "her first love was always the Weave" and she will try to use him as she sees fit when it seems like the quickest solution to a problem to her. But sailorsnoopy wrote a good bit about the inequality of the relaitonship, so I'll leave it at that.

I understand that gods and their worshipers works in a particular way in the Forgotten Realms (and always has), and that it is hard to make real-world analogs to those relationships, but it is still staggering to me to not see any shade of abuse in Gale and Mystra's dynamic.

Like one of the core themes in BG3 appears to be "abuse of power" and that "the gods overreach." While in another Forgotten Realms tale, Mystra might be depicted as a benevolent figure, in this game I think she is neutral at best and cruel at worst.

All the companions in the game are wrestling with damage inflicted on their lives from overbearing and powerful figures. Astarion with Cazador. Wyll with Mizora. Karlach with Gortash and Zariel. Shadowheart with Shar. Lae'zel with Vlaakith (and the Githyanki militarized industrial complex as a whole honestly).

Why would Gale be the one outlier? Because he's not. Gale is, like the other companions, a victim. Or at least I think that was certainly the intention of the game narrative (and it is arguable how well it was depicted, but that I see no other explanation why Gale would be the only one who isn't).

For Gale, he is a victim in his relationship with Mystra. While Mystra isn't (on the surface) as dispassionate and awful as the likes of Cazador or Shar, she is still the main guiding force in Gale's life and ultimately the reason Gale is in his situation (of course Gale's own hubris and ego as well, but those weren't born in a vacuum). She orders him to take his own life because of a mistake. A mistake! And offers no explanation as to what he has done.


And this. Yes. While being a Chosen comes with incredible powers and "perks," it also comes with it a horrible burden of responsibility and servitude.

Anyway, obviously not everyone will see the story and characters the same. We all come into this with our own life experiences and opinions. But I definitely do believe Gale is meant to be a victim of abuse just as the others are--his damage is just a little less apparent and more under the surface.

The reasoning I most often read in regards to this seems to be that Gale *should* have been content with what he had. It sounds very much in the vein of "he was at the top of his career, had the hot girlfriend, why wasn't he satisfied?" There seems to be very little empathy for this kind of situation. I am also very surprised how little empathy there seems to be for the year he spent locked up in his tower - many of us quite recently had a year locked away in our own "towers" as well, depending on the pandemic rules of the country you live in, and for a lot of people this was a horrible experience.