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old hand
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old hand
Joined: Sep 2023
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Wait, link to the article?
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enthusiast
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enthusiast
Joined: Oct 2023
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Yeah, I really wanna stay positivr for the company on general cause theyve aced so many other things in bg3 and other projects but that article was just like...wow i dont wanna use the term *tone deaf* caise im sure they had their reasons but its hard to see WHAT those reasons were. Its literally flys in thw face of the whole concept of their own game desogn of ,*player choice* id wish they just admitted it was a mistake on their part. But if thats a solid story element they wanna keep. Id be hard oressed to buy their next game at full price. Now if they DO fix karlachs engine in DE or dlc due to the outcry ill change my tune. But if this is it for her. Then that is just to much of a glaring inconsistency for me narrative wise This is exactly the problem the whole game boasts about choice and player impact on the stories narrative only to hand you the sweet innocent slave soldier searching for freedom and rips her away saying yup she's gonna die nothing you can do do don't try it you might as well sell that infernal iron it won't save her anyway. I didn't think larian would be so utterly tone deaf to this situation that flies in the face of the games tone.
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apprentice
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apprentice
Joined: Sep 2023
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Wait, link to the article? On a more positive note, since I didn't see anyone mention it yet, but Samantha has been longlisted at the BAFTAs for her role as Karlach. I'm sorry if I missed it (I tried to catch up on things after the week of not being able to access this at all, the server still seems to be struggling) If I had a vote, she'd get it, and hopefully she’ll be among those on the final list. Her performance definitely is a big reason why this character matters so much to me. She got me to feel a lot and that post-gortash scene is just… I didn’t expect them to stab me like that. It’s been a long time since a scene has hit me that hard. Kudos to her for that delivery especially It’s also why I am okay with the epilogue – there is still hope, not everything is lost. Sure I’d love to solve things actively in the game, but at least the future is still there, anything is still possible. Overall, the game is not perfect, but for me the good still outweighs the bad by a lot.
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old hand
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old hand
Joined: Sep 2023
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Okay, I found the article. They seem flippant and casual in discussing Karlach’s endings, which isn’t considerate of her fans. But after playing the game for as many hours as I have, I’m not surprised at this point that they intended for her ending to either be turning into a mindflayer or exploding to death.
Most of the companions are incredibly emotionally traumatized and have DEEPLY unsettling stories. And I don’t think that any of them has a strictly happy ending, and that that was by design. When I completed Shadowheart’s quest, for example, I was EXTREMELY disturbed by everything that I learned, down to the awful details. It left me feeling a bit shocked for the rest of the day. Everyone’s story is disturbing and can lead you into vague feelings of traumatization by association if you get invested enough in the character. With Karlach, same deal, just with a more underdeveloped storyline.
I do absolutely adore this game and I spend a lot of time playing it. But it would be difficult to deny that it’s emotionally manipulative at times. Just consider how so many people loved Alfira, and wanted her as a bard companion. And then they created that scene where she shows up, asking to be your companion, and the next morning you find her brutally murdered by yourself as Dark Urge, if you’re playing as the Dark Urge. So they give you a little taste of hope in that case, and then jerk it away for shock value.
Perhaps in the same way, they get you so attached to Karlach and her plight, just to jerk hope away for shock value. It reminds me of what maybe Astarion says about the nature of mental/emotional torture? You leave them feeling like there’s hope up until the very last minute. Then yank it away. I think that’s what he said his master Cazador had the tendency to do.
Not to say that the writers are intentionally inflicting emotional torment or something, LOL. I’m not quite that dramatic! But the idea IS in the game, that you dangle hope for as long as possible, and then jerk it away as a form of emotional manipulation exercised by one of the antagonists.
It’s actually a really dark game in many ways. (DOS2, their previous game, was very dark as well, although I did think that several of the protagonists had unambiguously good endings.) And there actually are a very limited range of endings, to be honest. I think that the flexibility of the endings was greatly exaggerated. Which, I’m okay with, because it is what it is. It’s good that they made an epilogue to smooth the bitterness over of so many of the companions’ stories.
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journeyman
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journeyman
Joined: Aug 2023
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I really wanted to finish the game, but as things stand (and probably will stand, based on that article), Act 2 will always be my terminus. It's a shame.
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enthusiast
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enthusiast
Joined: Oct 2023
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I really wanted to finish the game, but as things stand (and probably will stand, based on that article), Act 2 will always be my terminus. It's a shame. I feel ya its really unfortunate that they never got around to act 3 /s
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enthusiast
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enthusiast
Joined: Oct 2023
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Okay, I found the article. They seem flippant and casual in discussing Karlach’s endings, which isn’t considerate of her fans. But after playing the game for as many hours as I have, I’m not surprised at this point that they intended for her ending to either be turning into a mindflayer or exploding to death.
Most of the companions are incredibly emotionally traumatized and have DEEPLY unsettling stories. And I don’t think that any of them has a strictly happy ending, and that that was by design. When I completed Shadowheart’s quest, for example, I was EXTREMELY disturbed by everything that I learned, down to the awful details. It left me feeling a bit shocked for the rest of the day. Everyone’s story is disturbing and can lead you into vague feelings of traumatization by association if you get invested enough in the character. With Karlach, same deal, just with a more underdeveloped storyline.
I do absolutely adore this game and I spend a lot of time playing it. But it would be difficult to deny that it’s emotionally manipulative at times. Just consider how so many people loved Alfira, and wanted her as a bard companion. And then they created that scene where she shows up, asking to be your companion, and the next morning you find her brutally murdered by yourself as Dark Urge, if you’re playing as the Dark Urge. So they give you a little taste of hope in that case, and then jerk it away for shock value.
Perhaps in the same way, they get you so attached to Karlach and her plight, just to jerk hope away for shock value. It reminds me of what maybe Astarion says about the nature of mental/emotional torture? You leave them feeling like there’s hope up until the very last minute. Then yank it away. I think that’s what he said his master Cazador had the tendency to do.
Not to say that the writers are intentionally inflicting emotional torment or something, LOL. I’m not quite that dramatic! But the idea IS in the game, that you dangle hope for as long as possible, and then jerk it away as a form of emotional manipulation exercised by one of the antagonists.
It’s actually a really dark game in many ways. (DOS2, their previous game, was very dark as well, although I did think that several of the protagonists had unambiguously good endings.) And there actually are a very limited range of endings, to be honest. I think that the flexibility of the endings was greatly exaggerated. Which, I’m okay with, because it is what it is. It’s good that they made an epilogue to smooth the bitterness over of so many of the companions’ stories. Maybe you're right. I thought this was a fantasy adventure type game. Something really take a break from the world with. I was unaware larian was intending for the game to be grimdark and I'll sit out the next few games. Worlds shifty enough I don't need my little free time riddled with trauma baiting devs. Still hoping an avernus dlc is in the works though. And I'll say the other origins don't get pure good endings but they get way better endings. Namely being they all get to live which is nice. They aren't free from whats happened but they continue on and live and get to be happy. Karlach doesn't get that she's told by larian to die on the dock or lose your soul as a mindlfayer. It's to annoying
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enthusiast
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enthusiast
Joined: Oct 2023
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Okay, I found the article. They seem flippant and casual in discussing Karlach’s endings, which isn’t considerate of her fans. But after playing the game for as many hours as I have, I’m not surprised at this point that they intended for her ending to either be turning into a mindflayer or exploding to death.
Most of the companions are incredibly emotionally traumatized and have DEEPLY unsettling stories. And I don’t think that any of them has a strictly happy ending, and that that was by design. When I completed Shadowheart’s quest, for example, I was EXTREMELY disturbed by everything that I learned, down to the awful details. It left me feeling a bit shocked for the rest of the day. Everyone’s story is disturbing and can lead you into vague feelings of traumatization by association if you get invested enough in the character. With Karlach, same deal, just with a more underdeveloped storyline.
I do absolutely adore this game and I spend a lot of time playing it. But it would be difficult to deny that it’s emotionally manipulative at times. Just consider how so many people loved Alfira, and wanted her as a bard companion. And then they created that scene where she shows up, asking to be your companion, and the next morning you find her brutally murdered by yourself as Dark Urge, if you’re playing as the Dark Urge. So they give you a little taste of hope in that case, and then jerk it away for shock value.
Perhaps in the same way, they get you so attached to Karlach and her plight, just to jerk hope away for shock value. It reminds me of what maybe Astarion says about the nature of mental/emotional torture? You leave them feeling like there’s hope up until the very last minute. Then yank it away. I think that’s what he said his master Cazador had the tendency to do.
Not to say that the writers are intentionally inflicting emotional torment or something, LOL. I’m not quite that dramatic! But the idea IS in the game, that you dangle hope for as long as possible, and then jerk it away as a form of emotional manipulation exercised by one of the antagonists.
It’s actually a really dark game in many ways. (DOS2, their previous game, was very dark as well, although I did think that several of the protagonists had unambiguously good endings.) And there actually are a very limited range of endings, to be honest. I think that the flexibility of the endings was greatly exaggerated. Which, I’m okay with, because it is what it is. It’s good that they made an epilogue to smooth the bitterness over of so many of the companions’ stories. Maybe you're right. I thought this was a fantasy adventure type game. Something really take a break from the world with. I was unaware larian was intending for the game to be grimdark and I'll sit out the next few games. Worlds shifty enough I don't need my little free time riddled with trauma baiting devs. Still hoping an avernus dlc is in the works though. And I'll say the other origins don't get pure good endings but they get way better endings. Namely being they all get to live which is nice. They aren't free from whats happened but they continue on and live and get to be happy. Karlach doesn't get that she's told by larian to die on the dock or lose your soul as a mindlfayer. It's to annoying
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enthusiast
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enthusiast
Joined: Aug 2023
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Yeah, will probably put the game down for the forseeable future now until a patch adds something to jer or a DLC is confirmed to have SOMEWAY to fix her even if its just a side mission.
Which jist honestly reaaallly sucks. Causr theres still so much in the game i havnt exoeriemced yet and would love to, but the karlach issue is just to glaring for me. And that article just killed any desire I got to continue another playthrough
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enthusiast
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enthusiast
Joined: Oct 2023
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Yeah, will probably put the game down for the forseeable future now until a patch adds something to jer or a DLC is confirmed to have SOMEWAY to fix her even if its just a side mission.
Which jist honestly reaaallly sucks. Causr theres still so much in the game i havnt exoeriemced yet and would love to, but the karlach issue is just to glaring for me. And that article just killed any desire I got to continue another playthrough I'll still finish my playthroughs but that article was like a gut punch I can't believe her whole story was isnt she so nice and sweet? And she's dead hope you didn't get too attached. It doesnt make any sense to have every other companion live after act 3 with relatively good endings while karlach is told to sell your soul, die, or go to hell. It's so tone deaf from what the rest of the game is trying to be and completely undermines the whole house of hope thing. Which should be an option to just stay at since ya know it's nice, and won't kill karlach just for existing.
Last edited by mattmcrich; 16/12/23 02:45 AM.
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veteran
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veteran
Joined: Aug 2020
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The only benefit of a doubt I can give them here is the fact that she was a late addition, and the engine plotline was added very late in her development. So it might be more of a "well, we never did any content that was cut simply because we didn't have enough time to properly flesh out the alternatives". Although that just makes me think they should've pushed the game further back, instead of giving us an Act III that is very unpolished in a lot of aspects, and the weakest part of the game. It feels like Act I and II were done with a lot of care for major inconsistencies and plotholes, and III just was "lets wrap this up quickly". The thing is though, that she's not really a late addition. She's been in the game pretty much from the beginning of EA. They'd at least been planning on making her a companion for a long time. Yet her story has been entirely neglected. I think this just makes it even more likely that I'm never gonna complete this game. Larian made a good game, but it's really not that good. Larian has a lot of passion and ambition, but seems to me they're also like a bunch of disorganised teenagers wanting to shove everything in that they can with no regard to whether it will fit or make sense. This game is... just another crpg. It's got its own unique strengths, but it doesn't deserve the love and praise it's getting, not by a long shot. Larian are fine devs but just that, they're fine. Which is okay, we shouldn't demand every game be the best thing ever. It's fine to be fine.
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enthusiast
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enthusiast
Joined: Oct 2023
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The only benefit of a doubt I can give them here is the fact that she was a late addition, and the engine plotline was added very late in her development. So it might be more of a "well, we never did any content that was cut simply because we didn't have enough time to properly flesh out the alternatives". Although that just makes me think they should've pushed the game further back, instead of giving us an Act III that is very unpolished in a lot of aspects, and the weakest part of the game. It feels like Act I and II were done with a lot of care for major inconsistencies and plotholes, and III just was "lets wrap this up quickly". The thing is though, that she's not really a late addition. She's been in the game pretty much from the beginning of EA. They'd at least been planning on making her a companion for a long time. Yet her story has been entirely neglected. I think this just makes it even more likely that I'm never gonna complete this game. Larian made a good game, but it's really not that good. Larian has a lot of passion and ambition, but seems to me they're also like a bunch of disorganised teenagers wanting to shove everything in that they can with no regard to whether it will fit or make sense. This game is... just another crpg. It's got its own unique strengths, but it doesn't deserve the love and praise it's getting, not by a long shot. Larian are fine devs but just that, they're fine. Which is okay, we shouldn't demand every game be the best thing ever. It's fine to be fine. She was a late addition to the team as an origin character and as such her story and development would've come second to characters like laezel and shadowheart who were there from the beginning. Karlach mightve been there but she definitely was given as much love as the others.
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old hand
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old hand
Joined: Nov 2023
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It's at the end a game about power and about the abuse of power messes up people's lives, that's a dark topic. I mean the two main songs that play throughout it all are literally "I want to live" and "The Power". All of the characters have certain shared aspects, almost of all of them were de-humanised (for the lack of a better term) by their surrounding and suffer the consequences. (Though it's probably least true for Wyll, who has a story arc that still somewhat mystifies me.) I don't think it is a conceptually bad ending to have the character that was exploited and deceived by her powerful employer to get nothing more than revenge and the option to go out on her own terms. It is a very real ending for someone in such circumstances. I just personally don't like it and am glad that she did get an end that fits the more hopeful tones of the story much better.
Also, I'd like to point out that if you have that cute character that the story really, really wants you to like, that character will most likely meet a horrible end. It's a trope. If a character death is supposed to have impact, you have to care for the character first. Beth March from Little Women comes to mind as another character of this flavour. It's not a new thing. Though I am surprised that they didn't imagine the outrage beforehand. ^^
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apprentice
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apprentice
Joined: Sep 2023
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Also, I'd like to point out that if you have that cute character that the story really, really wants you to like, that character will most likely meet a horrible end. It's a trope. If a character death is supposed to have impact, you have to care for the character first. Beth March from Little Women comes to mind as another character of this flavour. It's not a new thing. Though I am surprised that they didn't imagine the outrage beforehand. ^^ I expected the game to not use such a low effort trope with how much care went into the other main characters(slightly exclusing wyll cos he has less screentime/dialogue and agency as the other characters do which sucks, but at least he doesnt have an ending to his character arc thats just depressing for the sake of it). Just imagine a reality where the devs put as much time and effort into karlachs questline as they did for astarion or shadowheart. Hell, just a fraction as much even, sure wouldve been nice lol
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old hand
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old hand
Joined: Nov 2023
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I don't think it's low effort, it's rather efficient. From my point of view, the problem with Karlach is basically what makes her popular, she is that perfect cinnamon roll from the start. She has not much of a character arc because there is no need for her to have one. You can't even corrupt her because she is too decent for that. She has not much to offer apart from being heart warming or heart wrenching. I think she is wonderfully written and acted the way she is, but there is only so much you can do with a character that does not have any internal conflict.
Really, my only big issue with her ending currently is, that on certain characters, you cannot stop her from exploding in the end, despite going with Wyll being her default decision.
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journeyman
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journeyman
Joined: Aug 2023
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I will still stand by my opinion that it's good tragedy in any other setting than high fantasy. It just does not work here, when there are too many ways to help. In low fantasy setting, sure. Real world setting? Definitely. Even in sci-fi? Absolutely. In DnD & high fantasy? No.
It can work if you explain WHY we can't help, considering all the options. Currently it's just because the "writer said so".
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enthusiast
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enthusiast
Joined: Oct 2023
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gale had so much ambition that even being close/ in love/ the muse of mystra wasnt enough and he tried to get more and more and more magic power. When he asked mystra to show him more of the weave and she said no be content and in response he tried chasing down ancient magic with near 0 understanding of it. His crime was unbridled ambition in the face of a life anyone else in his circumstances wouldve been more than happy. Gale went against the goddess of the weave and his punishment is..... a teaching job..... just my 2 cents i know its not everyones opinion or even a popular one but between that and the way he talks he just gets on my nerves. He was a gifted child who, while clearly loving his craft, magic, was also made to feel it is the only thing valuable about him. He is also a wizard, so he did work for his great magical skill and his position. So yes, to prove himself worthy to his lady love to become and even better wizard, he tried to get something for her that turned out not to be the thing he expected. His punishment for that was, that he lost all or most of his magical skill (again the thing he worked for all his life), his lover did not talk to him anymore, he became actively dangerous to be around and spend a year alone in his tower because he had nobody to turn to but his cat. When you bring him to his good ending, he either becomes a teacher who actively tries to foster a better work-life-balance in his students, helps to rebuild the Gate or becomes an adventurer who helps people just for the sake of it. In each of his good endings, he is happy but a lot of this happiness come from helping others in some way. That is a pretty nice character arc. I can get why people find him annoying but searching for some great "crime" to justify that dislike with morale is like saying Shadowheart should have seen through Mother Superior's game, Astarion should have stood up to Cazador more or Karlach should have not trusted Gortash. i see your point but i have to point out shadowheart was taken as a child, brainwashed and indoctrinated into a cult for the purpose of a dark goddedd. astarion[my vampire lore knowledge is rusty at best sorry] as far as i can recall was more or less forced into what happened with cazador since cazador was so much more powerful than astarion him standing up to him wouldve led to him just getting killed, tortured, or both. Gale on the other hand was the muse of the goddess of magic and in spite of her saying to be content and just chill out he went and delved into stuff he knew nothing about and pissed her off. im not saying he commited a great crime i wont claim that but compared to every other origin gale more than earned his punishment atleast from my point of view.
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apprentice
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apprentice
Joined: Sep 2023
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I don't think it's low effort, it's rather efficient. From my point of view, the problem with Karlach is basically what makes her popular, she is that perfect cinnamon roll from the start. She has not much of a character arc because there is no need for her to have one. You can't even corrupt her because she is too decent for that. She has not much to offer apart from being heart warming or heart wrenching. I think she is wonderfully written and acted the way she is, but there is only so much you can do with a character that does not have any internal conflict.
Really, my only big issue with her ending currently is, that on certain characters, you cannot stop her from exploding in the end, despite going with Wyll being her default decision. The trope can work in a different story setting. However, in this game and with karlach it just feels needlessly cynical to present her as the energetic sweetheart who doesn’t get cured and only gets bad endings. It doesnt congeal with the rest of the story’s/characters themes of changing fate/fighting the impossible, and just feels very out of place in the context of what world the story is set in. Not even allowing the player to pursue options to curing her is super frustrating too, it all feels very forced. Its just a shame cos with how insanely good her voice actors performance was, it would’ve been so great to give karlach a more substantial story to explore instead of being railroaded into a tropey ''innocent character gets a cruel ending'' story. It couldve been a cool dungeon questline like a section in avernus, questline with the gondians or just anything to expand and branch out her story (like most other companions get, hell even dark urge). That all being said, the new epilogue bringing hope to the avernus ending is nice, and arguably shows the devs are aware now that a doomer-ending for karlach sucks lmao. Just a shame that its unknown if we’ll ever get to explore the avernus/forge heist story, that would have made for an infinitely more interesting questline for karlach than the one we have now.
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enthusiast
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enthusiast
Joined: Oct 2023
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I don't think it's low effort, it's rather efficient. From my point of view, the problem with Karlach is basically what makes her popular, she is that perfect cinnamon roll from the start. She has not much of a character arc because there is no need for her to have one. You can't even corrupt her because she is too decent for that. She has not much to offer apart from being heart warming or heart wrenching. I think she is wonderfully written and acted the way she is, but there is only so much you can do with a character that does not have any internal conflict.
Really, my only big issue with her ending currently is, that on certain characters, you cannot stop her from exploding in the end, despite going with Wyll being her default decision. im gonna have to hard disagree with that statement, larian said this party is pretty edgy why not add this upbeat happy go lucky girl who in spite of being in the worst situation out of the whole group is still the happiest and loving life the most. then another dev was like " but what if we made her die at the end lol" its honestly shit writing on their part. I wish Samantha beart(i hope im spelling that right) did a bad job so i wasnt so invested in karlach but she did a stellar job from start to finish and that is what makes it worse. the writing team as far as i can tell from the most recent IGN interview wanted to make the whole ending for karlach a pure grimdark trauma bait ending. its one the laziest tropes and has no place in a game thats whole claim to fame is its insane level of player impact on the story. you can be a genocidal maniac and kill everyone on a mad lust for power through the whole game but you cant take enriched iron and save karlach? you cant talk to the gondians about her engine? i cant track down powerful wizards and come up with a solution? nope her default ending was burn up or mindflayer. kneecap is right as well, put karlachs story in any other setting with a linear story to tell and she is a masterpiece without question. id compare it to cyberpunk again with davids ending, it is perfect and the show itself is an amazing story that has 0 fat you need each episode and scene and you cant add a second season. But this is DND, Gales atom bomb is some quick fix why isnt karlachs overheating engine? Its just bad writing at the end of the day
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enthusiast
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enthusiast
Joined: Oct 2023
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I don't think it's low effort, it's rather efficient. From my point of view, the problem with Karlach is basically what makes her popular, she is that perfect cinnamon roll from the start. She has not much of a character arc because there is no need for her to have one. You can't even corrupt her because she is too decent for that. She has not much to offer apart from being heart warming or heart wrenching. I think she is wonderfully written and acted the way she is, but there is only so much you can do with a character that does not have any internal conflict.
Really, my only big issue with her ending currently is, that on certain characters, you cannot stop her from exploding in the end, despite going with Wyll being her default decision. The trope can work in a different story setting. However, in this game and with karlach it just feels needlessly cynical to present her as the energetic sweetheart who doesn’t get cured and only gets bad endings. It doesnt congeal with the rest of the story’s/characters themes of changing fate/fighting the impossible, and just feels very out of place in the context of what world the story is set in. Not even allowing the player to pursue options to curing her is super frustrating too, it all feels very forced. Its just a shame cos with how insanely good her voice actors performance was, it would’ve been so great to give karlach a more substantial story to explore instead of being railroaded into a tropey ''innocent character gets a cruel ending'' story. It couldve been a cool dungeon questline like a section in avernus, questline with the gondians or just anything to expand and branch out her story (like most other companions get, hell even dark urge). That all being said, the new epilogue bringing hope to the avernus ending is nice, and arguably shows the devs are aware now that a doomer-ending for karlach sucks lmao. Just a shame that its unknown if we’ll ever get to explore the avernus/forge heist story, that would have made for an infinitely more interesting questline for karlach than the one we have now. this 100% though im still convinced we will see some avernus stuff either in dlc or DE but i think we'll get her fix finally with that piece of content.
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