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enthusiast
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enthusiast
Joined: Aug 2023
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And I do like the Avernus ending too, I just feel mounting resentment towards Karlach. ^^ This might be a bit controversial since so many people like Karlach, but I feel like her late addition to the game contributed to these unfinished plot points (there are a myriad of other reasons too). I love her as a character, she’s sweet and fun and her actor is insanely talented. They might’ve put most of their resources into including her in the story but honestly that effort could’ve went to making sure the story actually made sense first. Even her own story is suffering as a result of adding more characters when you have a list of unfinished plots. The focus was on the wrong things.
(Also kinda bitter about the attention to detail she got as a late addition, but in particular regarding her condition when it comes to romance scenes with other tavs/companions. What applies to Karlach before she got her engine cooled could apply to Gale too with his orb. In his origin if you’re going to get freaky with someone before Elminster, you can do so without consequence but when you romance him he says he can’t do anything due to his orb issue. It’s inconsistent with his story. Her interactions are certainly unique and I wish other characters got the same treatment)
But this thread isn’t for Karlach, it’s for Wyll. However those 2 are synonymous with each other and you can’t mention one without the other, which is another problem that introducing her brought on for Wyll’s story. He can’t just be Wyll, he has to have someone else in the story in order to make him relevant. Some characters work really well as a duo. I think Wyll and Karlach could both shine as part of a duo and they could have made them more interesting with more content between the two of them.
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addict
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addict
Joined: Sep 2023
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(Also kinda bitter about the attention to detail she got as a late addition, but in particular regarding her condition when it comes to romance scenes with other tavs/companions. What applies to Karlach before she got her engine cooled could apply to Gale too with his orb. In his origin if you’re going to get freaky with someone before Elminster, you can do so without consequence but when you romance him he says he can’t do anything due to his orb issue. It’s inconsistent with his story. Her interactions are certainly unique and I wish other characters got the same treatment)
Yeah this. Play as Astarion, ascend, and you don't even get a chance to consider turning your romance into a vampire spawn. But this thread isn’t for Karlach, it’s for Wyll. However those 2 are synonymous with each other and you can’t mention one without the other, which is another problem that introducing her brought on for Wyll’s story. He can’t just be Wyll, he has to have someone else in the story in order to make him relevant. In this context it's really funny when you consider that killing Mizora automatically kills him too.
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stranger
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stranger
Joined: Dec 2023
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Some characters work really well as a duo. I think Wyll and Karlach could both shine as part of a duo and they could have made them more interesting with more content between the two of them.
Yeah, I love them as a duo, I actually quite like them being together. But Wyll needs his own charscter defining moment separate from Karlach, his father and Mizora. We get a bit of that in act 3 with the Ansur quest but it’s not fully fleshed out enough to include him as a bigger part, which is crazy because he’s Baldurian and his father is, you know, the duke.
Last edited by Glitches; 18/12/23 06:07 PM.
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old hand
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old hand
Joined: Nov 2023
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But this thread isn’t for Karlach, it’s for Wyll. However those 2 are synonymous with each other and you can’t mention one without the other, which is another problem that introducing her brought on for Wyll’s story. He can’t just be Wyll, he has to have someone else in the story in order to make him relevant. Plans for my next round with Astarion: Let Wyll get his nice reward robe in Act 1, encourage him to become a politician in Act 3, settle down in the Gate (burn down Cazador's stupid palace, build something nice on top of it) and let the wizard-hubby help with restructuring the city according to Waterdhavian standards. I know he has ideas for this.
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enthusiast
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enthusiast
Joined: Dec 2023
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One thing that doesn't make sense to me is how Wyll keeps calling himself a hero and can agree to bind himself to Maryzora forever for his father to be spared (who is just a single dude who doesn't even appreciate him), yet at the end when a hero is actually needed to save the ENTIRE WORLD he doesn't step up and offer himself. Why is that? I wonder. For the same reason why Lae'zel doesn't offer herself instead of Orpheus (if you side with him), even though she spent the entire playthrough lecturing my character how important he is. Or why Gale doesn't offer, even though he is ready to detonate the orb. Tbh, my impression was that they only made Karlach do it, so they could have this ''surprise! her condition can be cured!" plot twist. Gale actually does say "There is still my option with the orb!" but the game does not allow you to act on it unless you play as Gale. You are still supposed to turn someone into a mind flayer. That it incorrect (again, unless they changed the way the dialogue works in patch 5, since I haven't completed a playthrough with that patch). You can side with Orpheus and avoid turning anyone into mindflayer, if you have Gale in the party (and have him detonate the orb). But the dialogue to achieve that is conplicated. Storywise it makes no sense, it is just done this way to prevent the player to be able to turn two characters into mindflayers (Karlach & protagonist). So it would not surprise me if most players won't find that option.
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enthusiast
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enthusiast
Joined: Dec 2023
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I wanted to edit my post, but I kept getting the gateway error, and it only let me post now  For me having additional companions offer to turn into mind flayers would not help their story (in this case Wyll's), because it would just be another bandaid on bad storytelling. I don't think Larian is going to rewrite the main story anyway. So I'd rather they improve Wyll's storyline, like: have him make the big choice, let the player kick Mizora out of camp (for example by having Aylin smite her into pieces), make his final quest more about him.
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addict
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addict
Joined: Nov 2023
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And I do like the Avernus ending too, I just feel mounting resentment towards Karlach. ^^ This might be a bit controversial since so many people like Karlach, but I feel like her late addition to the game contributed to these unfinished plot points (there are a myriad of other reasons too). I love her as a character, she’s sweet and fun and her actor is insanely talented. They might’ve put most of their resources into including her in the story but honestly that effort could’ve went to making sure the story actually made sense first. Even her own story is suffering as a result of adding more characters when you have a list of unfinished plots. The focus was on the wrong things. These are actually not my words - you quoted the wrong person. But I'm also not a fan of Karlach. (...) let the player kick Mizora out of camp (for example by having Aylin smite her into pieces) (...) Yes, let me kick her out. Her wings are also clipping into a wall and it distracts me when I'm resting at the inn.
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old hand
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old hand
Joined: Nov 2023
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I was wondering, is there a version of events in which Wyll chooses to become a politician?
I just went to find Ansur without having rescued the Grand Duke first. When we were done Wyll started to talk about taking on his father's title, Gale mentioned that the horns might make that power grab difficult, but Wyll was positive that it wouldn't be a problem. It sounded like something he really wanted, but when I allowed him to choose, he still went for Blade of Avernus. It's a bit odd.
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veteran
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veteran
Joined: Mar 2020
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I went for that in my last playthough and was happier with it than I was with the Blade of Avernus option. I saved the Duke, found Ansur, Wyll said he wanted to be Duke and told me what he would do - all of which sounded better than killing devils and demons that Zariel doesn't like. Back to camp I encouraged him to become Duke and in the epilogue he went even further than I expected "declaring that he had formed a parliment in Baldur's Gate"
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old hand
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old hand
Joined: Nov 2020
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Duke Wyll is fantastic, especially if you're romancing him: You can choose to join the Council of Four along with him, Florrick, and Dad, and even adopt a little Ravengard to carry on the family name! It was so perfect for my Tav. Loved it.
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veteran
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OP
veteran
Joined: Dec 2020
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I think, I like the Avernus ending more. It is adventurous and Karlach can stay alive without becoming a mindflayer. I want to go with the two of them and give Maryzora literally hell.
"We are all stories in the end. Just make it a good one."
Doctor Who
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enthusiast
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enthusiast
Joined: Dec 2023
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Duke Wyll is fantastic, especially if you're romancing him: You can choose to join the Council of Four along with him, Florrick, and Dad, and even adopt a little Ravengard to carry on the family name! It was so perfect for my Tav. Loved it. Well, that is not going to happen on my DU run, because Florrick is dead. For some reason her flaming fist guards took offense to breaking down the door to rescue her and everyone went hostile.
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old hand
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old hand
Joined: Nov 2023
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I was mostly surprised that he first started to talk about wanting to go into politics, then defended the choice when possible obstacles were mentioned but decided to become the Blade of Avernus anyway, when I allowed him to choose. It didn't make any sense.
But I have suggested politics to him now as well because I am in one of those saves in which Karlach can't go to Avernus, so she'll have to become a Mindflayer for a change. It's funny how politics is treated as Wyll's ascension path.
Last edited by Anska; 02/01/24 11:46 AM.
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old hand
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old hand
Joined: Nov 2023
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How many epilogues does Wyll have btw? I know one with Karlach, one as a Duke (which is currently hilariously bugged for Astarion-Origin, Wyll thinks you are Lae'zel in the beginning - or another Gith) and two versions of the Blade of Avernus, one in which he travels Avernus and one in which he adventures along the Sword Coast. - The single Blade of Avernus ones are really nice, he has stories to tell in each of them, while he feels like a bit of a side character in the ending with Karlach as she had most of the interesting dialogue in my game.
Last edited by Anska; 15/01/24 09:31 PM.
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old hand
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old hand
Joined: Nov 2020
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He must have epilogues where he's still pact bound to Mizora, right? I've never gone that route, but they should exist.
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old hand
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old hand
Joined: Nov 2023
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In the yt video I found today, the description said that he was also free from the pact but that the old Duke had died, which was the difference to my version in which he was free but the Duke was alive and he apparently went to Avernus without Karlach, who burned at the docks because poor Spawnstarion couldn't save her.
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