Larian Studios Forums Baldur's Gate III Baldur's Gate III - Story & Character Discussion [END SPOILS WARNING] Addressing Karlach (PLEASE PUT SPOILERS IN TAGS)

Exactly, the lack of possibility to fix the engine is so frustrating when you have all solutions all around you. If DE will return back Avernus or Upper city with all her content, it will be big win.

Mystra was Gale's muse, not the other way around. And the "just be content" is easier said than done, if you have literally nothing else in your life but that one passion / your job and have a feeling that you just aren't good enough. (Very relatable.) They all are shaped by the environments in which they grew up or lived in and Astarion and Gale are especially messed up by this. In a way it's poetic. The guy who's ambition brought him all kinds of misery can use the burden this ambition placed on him to destroy all the instruments of human/illithid ambition (brain and crown) in one swoop, or he can redirect his ambitions and live a fuller life in which he uses his gift to help those around him. (Or he become a god, but I am not too fond of that ending.) Either way, Gale of Waterdeep dies that day.

But I am cluttering Karlach's thread with how much I like Gale. ^^

Also I didn't say, that Karlach's situation is theoretically unfixable, just that if they wanted that big dramatic tear-jerker at the end of the story (which apparently they did, maybe? At least it sounds like it.) they set it up like that efficiently. I also agreed that I am surprised that they apparently didn't consider that this wouldn't go down well with the people who like her - who are many because they made her very loveable.

I wouldnt say its just becauae ppl find her loveable. Her characters personality was definately what drew me to her as Love interest and companion. But honestly its just the shitty ending options that infuriates me. Like...you just legit cannot tie up her questline loose end. Mindflayer option is death. Blowing up is death. Going back to hell is just extremely depressing and odd as a narrative choice based on how the dialogue goes throigh out the game. And the kicker is. All 3 of these options are in no way affected by your choices as a player in her qusstline or otherwiss.

So maybe im in the minority but for me its not JUST her being likeable and wanting to save her. Its also the very glaring difference in her story to the other characters..
Even wyll who had to be re written new VA and less dialogue then karlach, still has several fitting ending paths. AAANNDD they gave him a path to get the best of both worlds IF the player is clever enough to find it. Thats the shit i love about this game. Not some tragic terminal illness acceptance of death thing. But problems presented to be explored and solved In differemt ways. The whole game from act 1 through act 3 is stuffed full of events and choices presented to the player that change the games feel and path forward and the devs did an amazing job in that. ....so then looking at karlach its like...what in the actual hell guys. *ending she deserves* -*we always pictured her burning up on the docks* like is this suppose to be a joke? I feel like im taking crazy pills lol

No you're right. The whole point of the game outside of karlachs story is fighting against crazy long odds for a chance of victory and achieving it in spite of the odds. The other companions all have hopeful endings that leave the player feeling good about where they'll end up.

Karlachs story as larian wanted to tell it was some doomer ideal of yea she's gonna die so try all you want it wont matter cause there's nothing you can do.

It's either really lazy writing, or blatant and pointless trauma baiting on the part of the directors and writers. It feels like a gut punch compared to what the rest of the game tries to convey to the player.

Then larian has the audacity to come out and flaunt the games open ended nature, player driven story, and then just leave karlach as a railroaded forced death for the sake a reaction from the player. I'm with you I feel like I'm going crazy reading how they thought her ending should be burn alive on this dock while all your friends get to live on and don't try to save you. It's maddening I hate this so much

I'm gonna go against the grain here and say that for the moment at least I'm satisfied with what we have. My biggest complaint, wayyyyy back at the beginning of this thread was that her story is hopeless no matter what you do. There was no implication about what going back to Avernus was like, so we were either left with death, kind of death, or potentially eternal slavery under a vengeful Zariel. Now we have two things that we didn't have before with the addition of the epilogues: not only is there hope, but she's HAPPY. That's honestly all I wanted. I'm not saying I wouldn't love a potential DLC where we finally ACTUALLY fix the Hellion's Heart, but what we have is pretty damn special.

Which also goes into my other point, I don't read the article as them being flippant about Karlach at all. Guys, we got an entire epilogue with Karlach where we rampage across the hells together, and we both clearly are having the time of our lives (I think its Shadowheart who mentions that we look happier than we did during our travels in Faerun). They did that for us, they did it not only because we asked, but because it bothered us so much they completely scrapped their original idea of just her dying on a dock. They obviously care about what we feel, since they spent time and money to give us at least some closure.

Would I prefer that fix we her engine in game? Absolutely. But I think we should also acknowledge how great it is we have what we have.

Yea it's a major win from what we had a few months back and it's a very hopeful ending. I'll be 100 percent honest I've avoided the cinematic and everything about the epilogue other than the information about the forge. I'm almost done with my first playthrough but works been crazy the past 2 weeks. I'm happy larian listened to some extent but it's still a far cry from what they needed to do with karlach. Im still looking for an avernus type dlc or a DE expansion that goes into an avernus dungeon to the forge.

I'll have to disagree though on the statements in the article. From the way they spoke about her arc and endings it was clear they never put any real thought into her character past a gimmicky "Oh look the happy go lucky girl dies of terminal hell cancer". It's cheap and just doesn't fit at all with the rest of the game or it's vibe of fighting against insurmountable odds. I can't say why they chose to give us sort of hope with the epilougue instead of just giving a fleshed out act 3 fix. But like I said I think it comes down to larians writers wanting shock value out of karlach and that's what they got.

The lead writer and Sven is wrong. What they didn't anticipate is how popular Karlach would become + no one is buying their reasons ( which I would call it lies ) that Karlach ending was not cut.
The removal of upper city made act 3 bad. All the quests in Act 3 seems half baked. It is quite telling in the difference of quality.

If anything, they now must consider doing making an ending for Karlach and restore the upper city.
Most people would disagree with me, but Baldar Gate 3 is a 2/3 finished product. The last 1/3 is still badly done and from my personal view, Larian winning game of the year shows the quality of competition there is, rather than the quality of the game.

I do find problem with lead writer reasoning that the whole theme is what you would give to save the world because the possibilities of not becoming a mindflayer were always there, but the game bend your arms to make a choice you could avoid.
Perhaps it is time to find better writers who doesn't force arm players.

Yeah i hesitate to say they are lying as I really do like Larian as a company and swen seems like a really down to earth guy.

But the upper city comment about it being * fully explorable* was literally less then a month before release. To say tgere was no cut content just seems disingenuiine. They even came out and sddressed the data mining not saying things werent* cut. But that all games get things cut. Like i can respect that.
But telling me that act 3 at launch was the *intended * version...come on. Its chock full of content i will not argue that. But like Dutch says it all felt half finished

I'm not sure what to make of the interview. Them saying act was as planned with 0 cut content is completely wrong even by their own statements. I forgot about the data mining and their response. The whole interview makes me feel like some twilight zone shit. I mean theyre changing their story completely from a few months ago its wild.

It's not cut content if they never got around to adding it. I think that's what happened -- stuff that they planned for just didn't get made.

Maybe they made a few assets here and there, like enriched infernal iron but, in the end, that never really got anywhere.

So they're likely telling the truth. However, that doesn't change the fact that two fetch quests and a boss fight are a far cry from anything that they would consider a fleshed-out questline.

Yeah, this sounds like a possibility. They "don't lie", but it is very very very close to lie. "Removed or not added" content were Avernus and Upper city, two most important locations for Karlachs story (Avernus for sure, and Upper city if we accept the theory, that her quest should end there). Imagine both locations made it into the final game, maybe this thread will no exist at all. I'm sure, if these locations are in the game, Damon and Gondians have new dialogs about fixing the heart using enriched infernal ore, which is now useless. Also Mizora could have some solution with Avernus.


But what I don't buy at all, it that the released act 3 was completed and they wanted it that way. This is a lie for sure.

Absolutely. I'm content with what we have. All I wanted was for hope to fill her eyes again, and I got what I wanted. Thank you, Larian!

However, a lot of people here, from the beginning, wanted to see her made whole again in-game. They wanted to work for her happiness, and they felt like their voices still hadn't been heard.

I don't think there are many people here who aren't grateful for how much Larian has done for Karlach. They didn't have to do anything even remotely like that, and the game would've still been in as good a shape with the wider fanbase as it was before. So we know they care.

The interview let us know that the writers saw her story as one of tragedy, and it seems to me that if there hadn't been such a big outcry about it, she would've been left as she was. She was intended to be expendable, to be used up in the story and then destroyed at the end. Understandably, that upset people.

But she does have internal conflict. She's torn apart by her desire to live and her fear of Avernus. This comes to a head during her post-Gortash-fight rant and leads into your descent to Avernus. As much as she talks about wanting to go out on her terms, as much as she says she'd rather die than go back to hell, deep down she regrets not being able to live out a full life. She tells you as much in that rant.

It's just that there aren't enough moments like this to more smoothly transition her into accepting a return to Avernus as a choice that she makes for herself. This way, her character arc goes something like this:

An unwilling soldier desperate for freedom hitches a ride on a passing ship away from the battlefield. But freedom is never free, and she soon realizes that her time is limited. She's destined to die unless she goes back. The soldier frantically looks for a solution to her terminal problem. While there is some hope in the beginning, failure after failure forces her to come to terms with her eventual fate.

Refusing to go back to the battlefield, she decides to take revenge on the man who sold her out and then die on her own terms. But when she strikes him down, after the adrenaline rush recedes, she realizes that this changed nothing. She laments how empty her revenge felt and how unfair it was that her life was stolen from her. She admits to you and to herself that, after all, she does want to live. Yet, at that point, you've done all you can to no avail.

Time is running out. After defeating the big bad, she has one last chance to choose between facing her fears or dying then and there. Realizing that fate wouldn't allow her to simply run away from her problems, she chooses to face them head-on for her own sake. She goes back to the battlefield but this time she's not alone. She finally has people who care for her and who believe her life is worth living.

There's your character arc right there. Throughout her story, she gains the conviction to face her deepest fears. That arc exists right now, they just need to flesh it out more.

As it stands, going back to Avernus is a choice that we make for her at the last minute. Mind you, that choice was always there since launch day, it just didn't have a cinematic and, for some reason, Wyll was the one to go with her regardless if you romanced her.

I have had her in my party again for a bit recently and it has made me painfully aware how much the game tries to shove her into the spotlight. She is the only character everyone expresses concern for, she gets a lot of little moments to make you feel for her, she gets dramatic or likability moments at the expense of other characters and she's even got the specially modified romance scenes. If there is any character in this game who does not need any more attention, it's Karlach. If that whole journey to acceptance turns into content that allows poor Wyll to properly shine, I am all for it though. The boy needs some love and some stuff to do.

Besides, the want to live is part of every character's heap of troubles in this game, even excluding the tadpoles for some. But at some point the basic question of survival changes into an exploration of what a liveable life looks like usually by putting previously held believes or wishes to the test. Following your story, Karlach's conflict is just a second "Find a cure" quest, nothing about her perception of the world gets drastically challenged in any way. The only thing she might learn is, that Hell does not necessarily mean to be alone - which could tie in nicely into "after all what is Hell without Hope" if you want to give it a super nice evil twist.

That's an interesting take considering those small moments are pretty much all she has. She doesn't have a fleshed-out storyline, entire zones, whole chapters, and large subplots dedicated to her like the others do. If you take that away from her, what does she have left?

Following the arc that I outlined, finding the cure takes a whole different meaning. Survival and living are two different concepts. Now Karlach doesn't want to survive, she wants to live a fulfilling life. Because she didn't envision it before, she was ready to die, surviving only as far as it allowed her to accomplish her final goals -- to die free, and die a hero. It was the same for everyone else. They each had their own goals that they wished to survive long enough to accomplish. None of them, however, needed to be convinced that their life was worth living. Only Karlach.

Putting that aside, what changes about her perception of the world is that she now understands that she can't simply run away from hell and make it all better. She has to face her problems head-on. If it wasn't for us, she would've kept running until she died on the surface as she originally planned.

wyl does need help i'm not gonna argue with that but how are you gonna say karlachs story as it sits right now essentially being find 2 scraps of metal and kill her former boss a good amount for her? like kole said those little likable moments are all she really gets in the game since they planned so little around her as we now see. Karlach needs to get something more, avernus forge style fix or finishing act 3 and letting us do it there because i honestly think larian just lied in the IGN interview.

That being said kole is right in that Larian didnt have to give us anything but to think theyd make her story end on her burning up to death on some random dock alone and that be her proper ending[since thats what we got at launch before the outcry] is honestly disgusting. im shocked larian didnt think people would be pissed with the original endings and im glad they listened to the community so much. im pretty happy where she is now its hopeful with a real possibility of future DLC taking us to avernus and to the forge.

I don't know. I cannot help myself, but I don't believe they like her story and quest. How you can like her quest in act2, when you picked 2nd infernal ore in act1, then in act2 you go directly to Harpers and Damon and give him the ore-> quest completed. This happened to me during the first play without knowing the story and also without any patches one week after the release. This was so poor.

I understand they have to say that they released full game exactly as they wanted, because they moved the release before Starfield, but if they like Karlachs quest and whole act3, none of the devs or qa team never played the game from start to the end.

Well, if the worst you can say about Karlach that everyone likes her expresses concern over her, that still doesn't come close how Lae'zel pushes a gith Tav out of the githyanki story. My character felt like an npc in her story.

On a more serious note, I think this the issue with Larian's writing in general, and not specific to Karlach or Lae. They have written the origin companions more as protagonists than npcs. So depending on whom you play as, companions can take the center of the stage. (in case of Lae she can do this even if she is kidnapped...)

I wasn't talking about taking away small moments, but about giving other characters the attention they deserve (hello Wyll, hello Minthara apparently) and maybe about not forcefully taking attention away from them in order to focus it on Karlach, no matter if you care or not. There is a whole thread here about how you are forced to tend to Karlach's engine exploding at the dock but are not allowed to follow Spawn Astarion instead, who has to leave the scene while the other characters are joking about his plight, even if he maybe is your partner.

As for your last point, there is this majorly depressed wizard, who in Act 3 still does not completely believe that he as a human being is worth very much, thinks that the world would be better off without him and that nobody but his cat - and maybe the PC - care about him. But I guess he talks too much and there is not much attention forced on his situation, so it's maybe easy to miss? Gale really has to be convinced that his life is worth living and what there can be to life, but for him this is merely a jumping off point for his final dilemma. (And he also doesn't have a dungeon, he has a corner in a bookstore. Not complaining, I love the vault. Just saying.)

I would also deny that Karlach needs to be convinced that her life is worth living, she totally seems to believe that it is. Otherwise the conflict you pointed out, wouldn't even be a conflict. Her thing in the end seems to boil down to not wanting to be alone. She says something along the lines of "when you are with someone you love, it's all a little easier" during the epilogue. There isn't a change in her attitude (being alone was from the start one of the things she hated most about Avernus) there is a change in circumstances, Wyll or Wyll and the PC go a long with her. If you had made her the offer to go along with her earlier, she'd probably would have taken it too. (Or can you? I don't even know anymore. I think I clicked on all hell-adjacent dialogue lines at least once and they have all become muddled up. - I think you can suggest she could stay with Hope?)

Also, this forum desperately needs to visit Dammon .... ^^

I think my biggest ossue at this stage in the game is, the vast majority of Karlach fans Id say have been adament about what were asking for. Without going into it much. to put simply -(let us fix her in game, let us complete* her questline with an actual feeling of completion and satisfaction. Let her have an option to stay)
And while Larian has added alot of stuff to her and others over these patches (which we are all very gratful for) it just irks me (and others) thst it seems the sheer amount of work they have done in these patches for Karlach alone feels like they did MORE work then was needed if they just gave us what we have been asking for. Fixing her engine. Like bare mimium Another fetch quest 3 or 4 lines of dialogue with dammon/ gondians and there. 80% of the fan base would be i think content* disappointed in a lack of avernus or upper city sure but we get what weve been begging for.

Instead we seem to be getting a steady stream of content and dialogue that just tries to make the avernus ending more palitable. Which atleast for me isnt what i would like. I appcriate the work they do but its just missing the mark.

Im really hoping its all leading up to a dlc or DE that allows a fix. But yeah. Just my thoughts.