Larian Studios Forums Baldur's Gate III Baldur's Gate III - Suggestions & Feedback Astarion romance improvements

I hope we get to see his past restored one way or another.


So do I!


The decision to put this in banter that doesn't even trigger is very weird.

To be honest, I find it even stranger that the ascension and Tav turning into a vampire is not a deal breaker for Karlach and Wyll. They cry over a dozen or two tieflings being sacrificed for an alliance with Minthara but are chill about sending 7007 souls to Hell? How does that make sense? The ritual and the final battle decision are probably the most evil choices in the game.


This thread is about his overall romance spanning over all acts as well as covering all of his paths, not just for Ascended Astarion. A big amount of suggestions are about content that's clearly missing and is bugged or not working well.

"Bad boy who make an exception for you" is precisely what the spawn path is about. A power hungry vampire who plots how to become stronger the whole game changes his mind last minute because you persuade him that he should "pet bunnies" instead and he sacrifices his ambitions for you.

I've made several suggestions here that would make him even more evil than what he is the game. The abusive part is not there if you roleplay an evil or at least morally chaotic character who agrees with his worldview, loves him the way he is and intends to stay with him forever, like they promised they would. This kind of Tav would genuinely care for his wellbeing. I think it's great that the game allows you to roleplay as a harmonious power couple or have a toxic dynamic where you're trapped in a relationship. The same thing in the spawn path - you can roleplay as a heroic goody-two-shoes who thinks abandoning power is truly the best thing for Astarion and believes he can heal that way better or a manipulative possessive coward who's scared of him getting stronger and wants to keep him dependent on you and to have a pretty vampire pet.

I don't even romance Spawn Astarion because I'm not super interested in that (did it once to see it but not my thing), but "Bad boy that makes exception for you" is clearly not what he is lol. Just look at the friendship epilogue. Or really, the fact that you can make him see the ritual is not truly what he needs even if you're friends or you don't even get along. Or the differences in dialogue between Spawn and Ascended during the final boss fight and ending in regards to other characters that aren't your PC.

Astarion wants power, yes, but the reasons he wants it for clearly are 1. self-hatred (he thinks who he is isn't enough and is too pathetic/weak) 2. fear. There are 3 moments I can think of where he expresses doubt or concedes your points if you're trying to dissuade him from the ritual. I don't think we should act like his hunger for power is his true, unaltered, pure desire unattached from everything that's happened to him and not mostly derived from his insecurities and trauma, as is unravelled throughout the game. His past as a magistrate is not playing much of a role here, I think, especially as the story basically doesn't even bring it up past a couple nods, as much as I wish it did.

I don't think it's a stretch to see that Astarion's good arc starts developing quite early on and is not sudden, as he drops his facade and barriers when he lets you read his scars, opens up to you about his consent issues in act 2, etc... do I think it's more interesting to corrupt him even further and make him regress? Yes. But I definitely got the impression that's where his arc was going even in my first blind run, pretty basic "what he thinks he wants is not what he really needs" arc. Saying he's petting bunnies is also disingenuous, I don't get the derision for a version of Astarion that's Chaotic Neutral at best.

Except you don't tell him the ritual is not what he needs but talk about the spawn who will die (sounds like guilt tripping him), you wanting him to have a certain type of life (that's Tav's need not his), or that the power might trap him (which they can't know for certain, besides Cazador is trapped by his undead condition, which he loathes, not by the ritual). If you romance him and then break up at the end he literally tells you he made the sacrifice for you only.


His reasons are more than just self-hatred and fear. He also wants to go through with the ritual because he wants the benefits it provides (extra powers, walking in the sun, a warm body, loss of the smell of undeath, sharper senses, etc.) has ambitions and wants to have the freedom to do what he wants. He was a noble who lived in luxury in the past too and he wants to regain what he lost.


That's just him opening up to love and intimacy with another person not starting to be a morally sound person.


I was jokingly referring to his dialogue when you try to convince him he can be better than Cazador and that's how he sees Tav's suggestion.

The epilogue has Ascended Astarion saying he prefers doing power-plays in the palace rather than being in the sun. One of the first things he says is that he wants to cast a fog over the world so that his "children" can roam freely, effectively getting rid of sunlight. In the end the actual benefits of the ritual mean little to him compared to the focus on power.

The noble thing isn't even clear anymore, now that his backstory has been unfortunately softened and his background has been changed to Charlatan. His pseudo-canon Idle Champions description (who Stephen Rooney co-wrote) has him with "forged patents of nobility". Nevertheless I think his noble past is irrelevant, it's clear why he really wants to do the ritual, and it's not because of some past desire.

You can read his scars being just his friend and you can talk about his consent issues while only being his friend as well. And this is development because it's him seeing that not everything is worth the pursuit of power (in this case +2 strength potion) and that it's okay to be vulnerable. I don't think Ascended Astarion would do this, he's had the idea that being vulnerable is bad and that power is everything reinforced. Astarion's good arc is not about him really becoming "good" in that sense, this is also clear in the epilogue, he still enjoys killing people and he's "more me than I've ever been". It's about untangling his issues with power, vulnerability, identity etc.

The break up at the end thing is a flawed argument because it's said in a heated moment and it's directly negated by the fact that he's content with your choices if you're just his friend, unless you think your specific circumstances in the game retroactively change Astarion's reasoning for not ascending, which is valid I guess.

The nitpicking over the wording of the options is just weird to me. I don't think saying 7k people will die is guilt-tripping, it's a fact that's worth some consideration. The option saying that Tav wants Astarion to have a life he's proud of just reads to me as a friend caring for another friend, and again I do think Tav's reading here about what Astarion would be proud of is accurate. And we disagree on Cazador's struggle in the "power will trap you" option so I won't elaborate on that one, I just think it's a valid reading on Tav's part as well.

At the moment of the decision he really wants to be able to walk in the sun, and it is one of his motivations. The fact he prefers something else later doesn't mean he still doesn't enjoy the sun when he goes out. It's also one vulnerability less.

Astarion likes to say a lot of things but doesn't necessarily mean them. For all we know, he'll change his mind later. How can he even cast the fog? Sounds like he's daydreaming more than being a realist in that moment.

His background was cut in some ways, but he's still a vampire, being powerhungry is in his nature. Even before he learns about the ritual he wants to control the cult and talks about world domination as a fun project.

Either lover or friend, you're still the person he's closest to throughout his whole life and he listens to you when he decides to abandon the ritual. You are still the driving force behind his decision. If you're his lover then of course he's doing it for you, because he knows you won't change your mind and help him and he's scared of losing you.

Ascended Astarion doesn't want to eat the astral tadpole and is chill with you not enslaving the main enemy at the end. He also knows power is not everything but he certainly enjoys it.

Wording means a lot and it's everything when you sign contracts. To me Tav sounds manipulative more than concerned about him. There were better ways to phrase the persuasion options.

A well written rpg tackles roleplay possibilities while keeping the narrative intact. The game should not force motivations on your character and take away character agency for the sake of a certain narrative. As you said yourself, whatever you say, it will direct back to the ultimatum - be my spawn or this relationship is over. And that's totally fine.

I guess my biggest problem with this dialogue is that it wipes away the whole narrative we had up until now when it comes to the romance. It totally negates the pivotal Act 2 confession scene where we can show him that we really care about him, not because of his body or the power he represents as a vampire - him as a person. Otherwise the romance would not progress. I mean, you can even mindmelt with him and show him that you are not lying. But suddenly when we come to the dialogue after the Cazador fight it's "Psyche! We were just in it for the sex and/or the power after all!"

You can see this dissonance in the narrative especially in the scene where you read his thoughts when he commands you to kneel. His thinking of you degrading yourself is a throwback to a dialogue you can have with him after the Araj-incident when you tell him to use all his assets to get what he wants. He says something like "You are right, it's not me degrading myself to manipulate others, it's the ones who fall for it who degrade themselves". The problem is just that this dialogue is a non-romanced one. ONE option in the whole dialogue. But if you follow his romance path this never comes up, he never comes to this conclusion - on the contrary, you actually nudge him towards the revelation that a relationship between equals is a possibility. You even abstain from sex to give him time. Why would this be wiped away just because you let him have his revenge (and what is better revenge than taking all that power from Cazador that he painstakingly worked towards for centuries?)?

I mean, you could argue that he really manipulated us the whole time with his Act 2 confession, but in that case spawn Astarion wouldn't turn out the way he does.

In the end, the game just contradicts its own romance narrative for the sake of telling the story of "Astarion the abuser". I have nothing against Ascended Astarion being an abusive asshat to Tav, but it has to make sense in its own narrative. And it doesn't really. They even made Astarion revert to feeding you his favourite lines again and Tav can't call him out on it. For this to work you have to wipe away the whole romance narrative that has been built up until now.

So, for the sake of the narrative (the WHOLE narrative, not just the "Astarion the abuser" one), please let Tav tell him they did it for him and don't need anything back. That doesn't make Tav naive or stupid (as you said) but is perfectly in line with the whole romance narrative up until now. I can accept that evil hell magicks does something to you, turning you into something really evil, but Tav is still Tav.

It doesn't even do that, as was confirmed in that ign article. Astarion is still that Astarion we know, just one who's not ashamed of his evil side and fully embraces it instead of struggling with it. Tav is also the same and there is no good reason to not be able to roleplay as someone who is fine with his decision (they helped him after all) AND still likes him as before. Very nice post, especially pointing out the narrative dissonance!

I agree with you, honestly! I think at the end of the day I focus a lot more on narrative than the roleplay aspect so it's not in my priorities, but I understand that other people really value that (esp in an RPG game) which is why I think adding an option is def good. I see how the ascended romance contradicts the Act 2 romance but I also think that (hot take coming here) a romanced Tav who helps him ascend has either failed to see the crux of his issue or is ignoring it completely, perhaps because they hold certain views about power themselves, so either a well-intentioned naive person or evil/selfish. I always play fucked up Tavs so this isn't a problem, but I think if you're playing as an evil Tav you've already contradicted your choice in act 2 (maybe Tav was playing the long game, maybe Tav didn't care about sex so it didn't matter to them... up to the player). I agree that a naive Tav who just thinks giving Astarion whatever he wishes will help him hasn't however been inconsistent in their logic. I suck at writing my thoughts so I hope they're clear lol

I'd say the Spawn path is more about him realising that treating others as equals and that trust is an option. I do like the two conversations you have with him after the aborted ritual. I am not fond of that you cannot return the sentiment and tell him how important he has been in your character's life, which would be needed to keep the conversation level. I realise this might be difficult for ordinary Tavs but for the Origins - Durge included - this should be doable. After all Astarion helps Durge through a very difficult night and when I play as Gale, I can quite literally tell Mystra that Gale defied her command because of his new lover. It would be an excellent moment to both make your chosen Origin feel relevant and to tell Astarion that he has been just as important for your character as your character has been for him.

My second critique about None-Ascension is, that it is a bit lame. All the suspense of the scene is carried by the dice roll, not by the scene itself or even by the line of argumentation, which could be interesting. Tav is also very distant in the scene - I guess it was written with a paladin in mind - there is no moment to show sympathy for Astarion's situation. Astarion is also still reasonably calm throughout the scene, which is odd when you compare it to how the scene is described later on in dialogue. In the dialogue it sounds as if you talked him down from the very turning point of the ritual, which he wasn't anywhere near at in the scene.

As I have written in the thread about fixing Astarion's "good" ending, I recently did the None-Ascension in Astarion's Origin and it felt amazing. In his Origin the point of no return is after Astarion carves the contract into Cazador's back, this allows for the cathartic moment of carving the runes to play out and puts the final decision at the real turning point, where a flick of the wrist and the choice of tool decides about how things continue.

I also liked how my chosen companion, Gale (obviously ^^; ) handled the situation. He first shows empathy with Astarion and helps him because of it, makes his moral objection know at the point of no return and after freeing the spawn reveals that even his moral objections were also steeped in care for Astarion. I wish Tav had a smidge of the emotional capacity Gale shows in the situation because in the Origin version it felt like someone was having my character's back, and that their bond only grew through the shared experience. The companion version of the scene is sadly lacking all of this.

The Spawn path also needs a friends version of the graveyard scene.

Ohhh very interesting thoughts! I mostly agree. I'm mostly okay with most of the ritual scene since it's pretty amazing otherwise BUT I have also thought that I wish there were some parameters the game was following to determine Astarion's choice instead of just being the same dice roll for everyone, convincing him is a bit too quick when I think there could be more buildup, then again I understand script bifurcations can be complicated... but I feel like something as simple as making the dice roll check higher if you made him feed from Araj (thus reinforcing his views about the world) could work. I have at points thought "it'd be cool if Astarion realised this on his own, like Shadowheart" but it's such a survival mode moment that I understand that that's not the case. Again, the scene is pretty amazing to me so I feel like I'm just nitpicking.

Tav's too distant yes, but I also disagree with some people I've see who wish to hug him after he stabs Cazador. I think that should stay his moment. You didn't mention it but I've seen that idea around and I just wanted to say my piece about that hahah

And the graveyard scene... I've also thought about what a shame it is that there isn't a friendship version since I only play Spawn Astarion as a friend, but I think it's probably because this is very intimate and special for him. I'm okay either way tbf

Thanks! Ah, I didn't know about the article. Then it does make even less sense for him to act the way he does.


No worries, I think you are pretty clear! I think there's quite a lot of roleplay possibities between "a well-intentioned naive person or evil/selfish" one. Evil is not black and white (which makes it so dangerous IMO, but also interesting to play). You might for example play an evil Tav/Durge who is happy to have found a kindered spirit in Astarion, someone who enjoys the murder and chaos and doesn't judge them or want to hold them back. They are not naive or well-intentioned, but neither is their goal to manipulate him. Being like this is a legit way of life for them. This is a game where we can play Drow or Duergar. They come from cultures where taking power and revenge is part of everyday life. Even an evil person can genuinely care for him. So I do not see a contradiction to the Act 2-scene. If anything I wish I could tell him "Ah really? You think I did not see that? I thought we're having a fun little game here. *smirk*" after his confession. Because he's anything but subtle, which is obviously intentional.

I simplified a bit for the sake of putting Tavs into two camps, I agree there's room for ambiguity! But I really hold the thought that a romanced Tav that lets him ascend hasn't really realised, is unaware, or doesn't care about why Astarion really wants to do the ritual and what you're reaffirming for him if you help him. The reasons for why Tav does it can vary, but to me it's very clear it's not a good option for him (which is why I love picking it tbh, tragedy enjoyers rise).

I also think that while the good ending is more satisfying the evil ending is much more interesting, since the good ending can be a bit unsubtle, esp the conversation the morning after, where he makes it very clear that this is the good path (to the point where I think "Okay... I don't think people talk like this". That being said I think most of the convo is sweet, but a bit heavy-handed here and there). With the evil ending there's a lot to pick at and dissect since it's, for the most part, subtler in regards to Astarion's psyche, which is why I don't like the idea of dumbing it down/sanding the edges for a sweeter and simpler "evil couple who are equals romance", I think it contradicts his entire logic now that he's ascended. This is mostly unrelated to what we were talking about so not an argument against you or anything but I was thinking about it and wanted to say it lol sorry

Thanks for clarifying. And I agree - It's really not what he needs for his self esteem. I'm totally on board with Ascension being the bad ending for him because he never confronts his fears (and I like it that way, too!). We all know that fear leads to the Dark Side. But I'll continue to be grumpy about the post-ascension dialogue and its lack of roleplay options, ha ha.


No, I agree. The spawn ending is toothachingly sweet, especially in the new epilogue. Even spawn Astarion needs to keep his "bite" IMO and he comes off as a bit too nice at times.

But I really love the Ascended epilogue and got exactly what I wanted out of it. My evil ex-Durge just reveled in the evil couple stuff, still seeing the talks with Astarion as a constant game and ignoring his low-key threats ("I'm always watching"). I loved that I could talk with God Gale about the possibility of Ascension. *evil snicker*

And with my goodish ex-Durge who just wanted to give all the power to Astarion for safety reasons but who had buyer's remorse there was the whole freedom dialogue complete with Astarion's gaslighting. Damn, what a gut punch!

Oh yeah, there are some sentences where I've definitely gone "okay that's going a bit too far with his goodness". Overall I still think Spawn Astarion is the one that changes Astarion's attitude the least between the two routes but they def overdid it here and there.
I didn't love Astarion's epilogues either way, tbh (I don't think Spawn was overly "good" in this case though, but I much prefer his friendship version, as cute as the hug is) There are things I like here and there of course, esp some hidden lines (like with Origin Ascended Gale) but overall I found it all bland and with less content than the other characters, which is uncommon for Astarion but maybe deserved after all the favoritism he's gotten throughout the rest of the game lol.
At least I can be happy knowing I correctly predicted what his good and bad ending would look like back in EA, lol. I thought his good ending would have him become a chaotic/morally questionable monster hunter/adventurer and that his bad ending would be him becoming a Lord and turning Tav into a spawn. I didn't predict the Ascendancy aspect but close enough! (Now remembering how his writer said the original concept for him was "Medieval Deadpool" and how that becomes kind of true for his spawn ending...)

They've turned it into rainbows and unicorns, without mentioning any of the inconveniences Astarion has to deal with after losing the tadpole - in the romanced version that is. At least the Underdark and Ascended endings have more realism. I agree, he becomes too nice and loses his snarkiness.

I agree he's too nice (moreso in the final battle than in the epilogues, where I think they've toned it down) but regarding the loss of the tadpole in the Spawn ending I do quite like what they've done with the vampirism metaphor. The way he talks about it in his adventurer (and I think in the underdark ending as well? I can't remember if he also talks about it) it struck me as they're making vampirism be a metaphor for trauma/being a trauma survivor in the way Astarion worded it. He says doesn't want to obsess over the choices people have made for him but isn't also disavowing the sun, and if the opportunity arises, he will take it. So basically, much like trauma survivors, he can't "erase" the pain that's been inflicted to him, but he can grow around it. I found that interesting.

I will say something about the Underdark ending rubbed me the wrong way, but I just honestly don't think Astarion should be anyone's leader especially at this point of his life lol. Him making "brutal examples" of people attempting to overthrow him and that he can't "afford to show weakness" struck me as a bit contradicting of everything else he says throughout the spawn route. Since the spawn ending makes him so (overly) wholesome at times it was kind of jarring for him to employ abusive displays of power like that. I'm not against him being capable of or employing cruelty at all, my favorite Astarion moments are when he stabs Gandrel and strangles Petras, but the spawn arc making him too sweet at times made those lines seem inconsistent/OOC. I guess it does open up the opportunity for another arc for him to develop, but I think the adventurer ending is more fitting for him since he's too selfish to chain himself to a colony of spawn.

The spawn non-romanced version is done better than when he's in a relationship, but I don't like his lines about inspiring hope and saying he's fine not drinking blood. Sounds too heroic and like he's becoming a Wyll wannabe. It would have been more in character if he said that he was taking some mercenary jobs for fun, to kill some people and to be able to drink blood of those no one would miss.

To me him accepting the fact he can't walk in the sun is him embracing his vampiric side and the restrictions that come with it, his inner darkness and integrating his shadow self. He feels fine with who he is but if he can find ways to get rid of the inconveniences that come with his condition then he'll take them, because he still wants to empower himself and live a good life. Cazador hated being a vampire and all the drawbacks he had to deal with, which can be witnessed if his mind is read when Astarion is not present during the encounter. Him becoming a vampire was his choice so I think he just means being ordered around and having to do others' bidding as something he wants to leave in the past because now he has the freedom to forge a new future for himself. It takes him a while to get out of the slave mindset, even if he's physically free from Cazador.

The life in the Underdark is brutal and the types he has to deal with were not nice people even during their mortal lives (he says folks like Sebastian were in the minority). He doesn't have any extra powers as he does after ascension so a violent display from time to time makes sense. The majority of them are still ravenous and only strength is something they would respect. Right after abandoning the ritual he feels hopeful that he can live a different way but when he's in the Underdark he gets a hit of reality. Being idealistic doesn't work in that environment.

He is selfish but he also likes having power over other people. It could be his way of experiencing that thrill even without ascending.

That would be a nice and interesting way to have gameplay and choices affect the dice role, currently it's only lowered by gazing into his eyes. But overall I am not a fan of the drama of a scene hinging on a dice role. The dice role is good to accentuate the suspense but it shouldn't be a substitute for it.


Agree, I think everything post stabbing is great as it is - no drinking from skulls needed, it's not the drinking from skulls ending - just the build up could be more intense, have a bit more blood splatter, take the scene a bit more to the edge.


Is there more in the final battle than that scene when Tav thinks about accepting the final tadpole from the emperor? I never got even that one because I instantly agreed to shrimp Orpheus - I am very ok with shrimping Orpheus - I just had Astarion scold me for even thinking about using Origin-Gale's bomb at the brain stem. Which is so on brand for Astarion. Everyone else asks why Gale hesitates, while Astarion sees right through it.

The romance epilogue is a bit too short for me to say anything real about it, it's lacking the middle portion. But in general I prefer it when sweetness comes from warmth, hope and the confidence of managing hard times together, rather than from ignoring problems. I recently saw Gale's proposal when Tav is a mind flayer and that's kind of perfect in this regard, addressing possible problems and countering them with warmth and confidence, and I wish the spawn ending had a bit more of that in the romance. That's the charm of bitter-sweet, no?

The Underdark ending feels like something he feels obliged to do. If you take the long route of talking about the other spawn in the post-graveyard dialogue it at least sounds like something he doesn't really want but maybe should do.

There are a bunch of throwaway comments that you might or might not get since they appear kind of at random, some of them might be overly sweet but I don't find them jarring/OOC (for example, him lamenting Gale's death, since they travelled together for 4 months) but some of them I'm like ohhhh that's a bit too much.

I don't know if I truly have an issue regarding the bittersweetness or the sweetness of the spawn romanced epilogue, I just think it's quite bland. P much every PC gets the same dialogue no matter what and it's quite short, they could've done something like Shadowheart's romanced epilogue where she's pondering which stories to tell (similar to human Gale). The positives for me are that the hug contrast is a nice callback, and at first I found his body language while saying "bitter and twisted" cute but now I kind of cringe a bit haha. The dialogue just feels very standard and flavorless (and almost rushed, when compared to other companion's epilogues) when Astarion is usually quite distinguishable, I think p much anyone could say what he said to a romanced PC (that we all deserve happiness etc. I'm not against him saying something like that but it still felt weird to me?). I saw it more clearly during the epilogue with friend Durge where he's hiding a knife, that's a moment where I thought "yeah that's Astarion alright".

In some ways the epilogue left a bitter taste in my mouth cus it made me realise that Astarion's narrative arc is truly done with, but I guess that makes sense. It's just hard to let a character you like go lol.

Also in regards to the Underdark ending, I'm not even sure if it was originally meant to be the canon spawn ending. In the datamines for the original epilogue it was, but now Adventurer's the default, which I'm glad for since I think it suits him more and he'd be happier that way. It's also confusing that if you break up with him during the ending he says he will look for the Spawn but unless you've told him "we should go look for the spawn" he doesn't do it. It sounds bugged, even though I don't want it fixed tbh.

This.


Maybe he's doing it to spite Tav, like he's saying "I can do this on my own, I don't need you" and wanting to find his brethren because they were people who could relate to him after the only person who supposedly cared for him decided to leave him in a rather crappy fashion.