Larian Studios Forums Baldur's Gate III Baldur's Gate III - Story & Character Discussion The romance with Astarion pulls you over to the "dark side".

I apologize, I'm writing through google-translator, but I really wanted to comment on the really unique game experience I had (I never thought that the game could do such a thing). There will be many spoilers in the text, including about the endings of the game, so if you haven't played the game yet, it's better to refrain from reading it.

The romance with Astarion pulls you over to the "dark side". And its "officially good" ending, like a revolver at the temple, makes you rework all your problems with selfish vulnerability more effectively than any psychologist. Purely personal opinion, long text, spoilers.

My torment with Astarion began with a phrase in the diary that appears after completing his personal quest (if you talk him out of the ritual): "Astarion's fate is sealed. He will remain a spawn for the rest of his days." Astarion himself also talks about never seeing the sun again. Somehow, I truly believed that if we refused the ritual, Astarion's story would continue and a cure for vampirism could be found, and Daliria's diary seemed to hint at that. I immediately replayed and helped Astarion ascend, a gorgeous ascension scene, and then... The pain, the heart-wrenching injustice, the resentment... I don't understand why the Tav doesn't have a single adequate line in that kneeling scene, even after passing the test? "Open your consciousness" is the most begging option, in Tav's place that's the only thing that seems possible in such a situation. I believe that if there were an opportunity to somehow show Astarion how you feel, he would have behaved differently. Then I couldn't bear it, the desire to get through the game without spoilers became irrelevant in the face of such a serious problem. I found detailed descriptions with companions' lines and Tav's behavior, video of Astarion's "good" ending (without Ascension). This is the kind of ending that just zeroes in on the whole game for me, that I would never want to see in my playthrough. I just hated the rest of the companions, whom I once considered friends and strived to make things as good as possible for them. Now I just wanted to smack each and every one of these scoundrels in the face with a gauntlet who felt entitled to laugh at Astarion's pain. For me, as a player who understood and truly loved Astarion, who had this character became the center of the entire game world, all the former sincere love and admiration for the world of Baldur at that moment simply changed to hatred for all others that will be happy to live and see the sun. The rest of the plot became specifically not cared about, something like a temporary illusion, you can imagine that everything is good and interesting, but at the end, it will turn out to be a lie. I didn't play a "good" character on purpose, I just immersed myself in this world as in life, I wanted to admire it, take care of it, help others if possible. And even it worked out well, before the ritual of Astarion only once I had to look at the game information, when Orin kidnapped a companion, and so natural playing with full immersion. I knew about Astarion, that he refuses a lot of people, but I didn't read any guides on principle, I wanted to play realistically without hints. I decided that if he is so harmful, constantly disapproves of my actions, then it will not work, but okay... And then the bite, the fight with Gandrell, heartbreaking dialog with Astarion, after which very much want to protect him, to help him, and then he suddenly offers you a night of love, and you do not even believe it, because all these events occur literally one after another, and just a couple of days ago he yelled at you "Why are you looking at me?". It's like an explosion, literally. And the sea of tenderness and love that comes over you after the confession scene in the second act is hard to describe. It feels like you're holding his wounded heart in your hands, holding it as gently as you can, and there's nothing more precious in the whole world than that. And I'm going to go drinking with these idiots in a tavern in the finale, celebrating some kind of "victory" while Astarion burns? Astarion, who was always with me, who was the only one who never stayed in the camp, but had a statue of him in the camp, Astarion, on whom I always put "gentle protective bonds" and took some of his damage, happy that I had chosen the warrior class and could afford it. Astarion, who became a virtually invulnerable Assassin and ran around the battlefield like a god. Astarion, who could open any trap, any castle, who repeatedly dealt a decisive blow to a boss or pulled off a difficult fight, left alone when everyone else was already lying down, he in this ending looks like some kind of outcast, like an object to be bullied, he is deceived, he is hurt, and he is forced to run away again, hiding from the sun. Is such a world worth fighting for? I felt disgusted with my companions, no longer interested in their fates, and a feeling of helpless rage in general. The only possible way out was to leave the larvae and take control of the Elder Brain (I realize it's pretty stupid, but I was just not psychologically ready to "kneel", and I had read all sorts of "horror stories" about "Astarion becomes an abuser", "Astarion will never respect you again" and other such nonsense). I went through almost the entire Lower City, and it was specifically depressing for me part of the passage, before I read the "evil" ending, where of course, no one will let you do as you want, all companions without exception become slaves of Tav, the meaning in this, of course, no.

Yes, they warned that "romance with Astarion is traumatizing", but that the power of the art would be so great that you'd start having trouble sleeping in real life, constantly forgetting keys/phones/whatever - it was certainly a somewhat unexpected experience. Just quitting the game was hindered by the feeling that by doing so you were betraying Astarion anyway, leaving him a spawn and violating your own principle of "in my world, Astarion will be fine". I decided to endure, to ascend Astarion, to bring him to an adequate ending and to put a stop to it. Then some miracle happened - I didn't have to endure! Already from the first frames of the Ascension ritual I felt a wave of euphoria, my mood skyrocketed. Previously, I was not able to play "evil" characters at all, I just didn't want to dive into this variant in any game. And only now I was able to fully experience the pleasure that people who prefer to play as "evil" probably feel. When you replay the Ascension scene and every time you revel in Kasador's screams, you admire Astarion, because, yeah, that's my Astarion. And no bastard can humiliate him anymore, the world can't hurt him anymore. Nevermore. How after that it's fun to slice Gurts, and some time later - to kill Oblodra and throw the corpse into the sewer (it's delicious to suddenly discover the existence of the "attack" button and thus "correct" your own plot a little). And the night with the Ascendant gives some special bittersweet feeling, and the kneeling scene is no longer perceived as a "knife in the heart" for some unknown reason, but as an act of love and understanding on your part. Unfortunately, a huge trauma (200 years!) cannot pass so easily, so we remember "Veliot's third lesson" about patience and time. And any action (like "kneeling") is just an action in itself, but you are the one who gives meaning to it. And it is the meaning you give to your action that matters, not the people around you, not the rules of society invented by someone, but only you yourself. And then I got from the game a wonderful reward for all the stress I had been through - the rage and bloodlust subside, the world regains its colors, the adventures are exciting, and most importantly, my heart no longer aches for Astarion. And nothing bad happens, no "abjuse" is not felt, Astarion's love is felt, there are heartfelt lines, and looks, and facial expressions. He is livelier, more playful, while the "unascended" Astarion is sadder and seems broken. And, very pleasantly, after Ascension, Astarion finally starts to trust you and doesn't expect betrayal. And you know that he'll be able to enjoy all the pleasures of life, he'll be able to bask in the sun, he'll be able to protect himself, and all those sacrifices, much less your own selfish pride, are more than worth it.

It would be interesting, of course, to understand what is the meaning of such a bad "good ending" of Astarion? Perhaps it means that Astarion is an "evil" character, the world doesn't accept him, and he himself doesn't really like people around him, so he needs strength, otherwise he will turn into a victim. And if the player wants to "warm" Astarion, to surround him with love, to show that there is still good in this world, that it is possible to be happy, going the other way, then by doing so he deceives both Astarion and himself. I sincerely sympathize with those who saw the situation this way and experienced pain and disappointment in the end. And if you deny him Ascension only to keep Astarion "comfortable", dependent, not doing and saying things you don't want to hear, then this is the real abuse, and with such attitude of the player to the character, his bitter ending should not cause any particularly violent reaction. But, in the case of "going to the dark side" and the Ascension of Astarion at the cost of 7000 lives you get with him... Happiness. Aeterna amantes. No "payback for evil done", none of the things I feared simply based on classic literary and game stamps from the series of "you did a good deed - it will be good for you, you did a bad deed - it will be bad". With Astarion, it turns out to be exactly the opposite. And the ritual doesn't change his consciousness, Astarion is like that, he just finally gets to express himself the way he wants to. I've read all the DND information I can find on the Vampire Ascension ritual. Nowhere does it say that he'll "go crazy with power" or anything like that. And Astarion isn't the only one, there are several other Ascended Vampires in the world of Faerûn.

I, of course, fully understand and share the feelings of those who are very dissatisfied with the ending of Astarion without Ascension, but personally for me it became the very stimulus that eventually allowed me to expand the boundaries of thinking and process some of my own complexes. I decided to write all this for those who probably, like me some time ago, are in agony, not knowing what to do with Astarion, maybe other people's experience will be useful, and, of course, to show once again what an amazing and strong game Baldurs Gate 3 is, that can bring such emotions and even change the player's personal views on the world. Special thanks to Larian for creating the image of Astarion, I've played different games, but such emotions and such attitude to the character has never been. Not even close. I sincerely hope that this new word in the game industry will not be the only one, and in future games we will still be able to meet with really unusual and colorful characters that can make a "crooked touch" to the player's heart.

Completely agree.

I'm someone who played the unascended route several times, feeling that it was the 'good' option for him.
It never felt all that 'good', more like I was doing something good for the sake of being good rather than doing something for my lover. And the dock scene made me question that reality every time.

Then did Ascended,
it just feels so much better and makes a lot more sense if you love someone and make it so they are no longer relying on you all the time but can look after themselves and you can continue on together watching each others backs.

If you go the Unascended route you realise that he will live forever (unless someone stakes him) and Tav will not so he will be alone, that he will always have to deal with the blood hunger, that he will always need to find somewhere to hole up in in daytime and that he will never see the sun again, and travel is more or less ruled out as the entire running water and needing to hide in daylight becomes a real danger, hardly surprising he seems sadder, more pliable and less himself, his world has just got a whole lot smaller and more reliant on others.
He has to be sadder (no matter what he says to you to reassure you) he wouldn't be normal if he didn't.

The cost of the 7k souls , well its unfortunate but then it is anyway.
Unascended route you either
a) leave them imprisoned, pass the buck to whoever finds them probably the Gur. Not a solution in my eyes.
b) Release them. you leave them as spawns just like Astarion but with no benefit of having had years to be around others and learn control. Some of them are not going to have been nice people before Cazador imprisoned them so no chance that all of those 7k will happily decided to go to the Underdark and behave themselves, a pretty large number will ignore all that and do their own thing and indeed you find some of them in the sewers afterwards so they ignored the 'going to the underdark' (and there are multiple ways out of the underdark into other cities and countries where they can cause chaos anyway).
You are also condemning them to living forever with the blood hunger. Never seeing the sun and only being able to be travel in the underdark or by night and not crossing running water.
Their souls are already lost so they have no hope for the future.
Pretty poor life all things considered.
I'd rather not be responsible for what they might do if I release them and again its passing the buck along to others to deal with later.
or
c) you kill them anyway. Which I always did for the above two reasons. So yeah I'm evil in some peoples eyes. Its all subjective.

Ascended route, the first thing he says immediately after ascension is that the blood hunger has gone and he is no longer in pain from it.
He's ecstatic about it and so am I.
Why wouldn't I be? I had no reason to really understand the pain he had been living with for nearly 200 years until that moment.
He can see himself in mirrors again. Might be vanity but so what, its something we all take for granted that he hasn't had for nearly 200 years.
He can be in the sun once the tadpole has gone. Something he has told you countless times that he loves.
He doesn't need to fear anyone again, they might be able to kill him but they can't control him ever again. No one can use him and abuse him.

There's only one dialogue (which a modder has already fixed) which makes it out that the only reason you ascended him was to {paraphrasing) a) I did it all so I could become a vampire, b) Just views him as a sex toy and c) Scolds him like a naughty schoolboy - Its not anything Astarion himself says that is the issue its entirely the Tav dialogue and I can only assume that whoever wrote it had no idea of his backstory. This happens several times with other writers taking over parts of the story not just in this instance and with this companion, those parts are always obvious and never quite feel right.
a) why would I have even thought about becoming a vampire myself as a reason to do anything given it is never raised as a possibility until afterwards
b) difficult to imagine any scenario in which given you have been celibate for a long time previously because he is getting over trauma means that you view him as a sex object
c) and why would I scold him for doing something completely logical from his point of view and that I helped him to do?

Once you get past that out of place dialogue then he's so much more playful in his dialogues and so much happier.
He has silly little animations when he's talking to you sometimes that are adorable.

I can't imagine going back to the Unascended route, especially given that awful dock scene and that the game provides no other options for him. I don't care about pet names - I live in a country where all the pet names he uses for Tav are used habitually anyway for loved ones, never understood the furore over them.
If he is a bit possessive, well its all new to him things will settle down, a lot of it is protective rather than ownership, really 'you' are his only weakness so he's protective and that's understandable.
He got a massive power rush and adjustments will take time but nothing he says or does upsets me even so. He's still very much 'My' Astarion and the character and personality I fell in love with.
So he wants to use his new powers a bit and I want travel and parties can't really see anything wrong with that, we'll discuss it, as two people in love should do.

Lovers forever.

If I don't always agree with him then to me that is more real. I don't want someone I always agree with I want someone with their own thoughts and feelings and the power to act on them if they want to, so that we can have a conversation rather than him just going along with whatever I decided.
I don't want a puppet.

I think Larian had good writing until they brought in other writers and started reworking their ideas. I agree with you, but for me this game is dying more and more, after every interview with Larian, when they say - "everything is great in the game"

I kill Astarion on the beach - nobody pulls a knife on me and lives ...

So you killed Lae'zel then? After all she threatened you with a sword. Shame, that's some good story content down the river.

Anyway apologies, each to his own and its derailing the thread.

Don't take the bait.

Larian really messed up with that docks scene.

As she refused to say "thank you" I told her to jog on ...

Yes, its very apparent when a non original writer tacks things on, the tone feels off somehow. Not just in the instance I quoted.

I feel this may be why Act 1 and 2 work better overall written by original writers and so more cohesive.

But that aside I was very pleasantly suprised by the Ascended route the first time I played it. I found none of the things I was warned about that would make it feel less than optimal. If anything it worked much much better and I was happier with it overall as the OP says.

That dock scene and that one annoying "I will protect you" line which is so tone deaf following two heartfelt conversations about partnership and equality.

I'd like an option, to not let Astarion ascend and still help him find a saywalker ring or something.

Thank you so much for this post! You've opened my eyes to a lot of things, perhaps if I had read something like this earlier, the game would have cost me a lot less nerve cell

I felt genuinely sorry for the other spawns, especially Sebastian (and Astarion, judging by his facial expression near the cages, didn't want them dead), and I didn't really consider any options at the time other than freeing them all. But you're right, many of them will start killing innocent citizens of the city, and their very lives will also be full of suffering, and that's an additional argument in favor of the fact that there's no point in discouraging Astarion from the Ascension.

The dialog you mentioned really discouraged me the first time too (thanks for mentioning the mod, I'll look for it). I had to choose option b and say the other, "my" line out loud. It wasn't until much later that I realized that Astarion wasn't offending "me", that he was essentially interacting with a completely different, externally imposed character. He can't "offend", he doesn't know anything about any "offenses", it's just that the writers have some ideas of their own, not only about Astarion's behavior after the Ascension, but also about Tav's character and the nature of the relationship between the characters.

The interference of other authors in the script, perhaps, makes the arguments about "What did the Larians want to say?" somewhat meaningless. Perhaps the whole "moral" lies in the fact that when a true creator leaves his creation behind, in the hands of others it begins to wither.

The fact that Astarion is a bit "possessive" is something I even like. It's nice that he doesn't want to let Tav go far away from him. And the fact that Tav is becoming his spawn is clearly comforting to him (given all his mistrust). It's much better, much more fitting to me than that scene of the final conversation between the Unascended Astarion and Tav, in which he actually suggests that Tav abandon him.

And yes, his animations are adorable. And I'm now taking him to every mirror on the way to enjoy the line

And it's a little sad that we'll never know what would have happened to the story if the original writers had done the whole game.

Most of Astarion was written by the same guy, but then someone else started "helping" and you can really tell when things start feeling like a bad fanfic.

If a character's "good" path feels worse than their "evil" path I think it's time to take a good look at the writing lol.

I agree. Whoever wrote most of Astarion is a genius.

That's for sure. And it also seems odd that Unascended Astarion talks about partnership and equality and Ascended talks about submission, when the relationship with Tav in both was exactly the same.

Unfortunately, you can't find anything like that in the game.

More to the point of the topic. Astarion's romance very much pulled me to the dark side only to bring me to the proverbial light - and the factual darkness - in the end. I romanced him with Gale Origin, where he is utilised as the devil on your shoulder. The narration tells you that Mystra wouldn't like you to use tadpoles, Astarion instantly advertises their benefits. Astarion puts on his little scheme to take over the cult, the bedtime narration expands on it and makes you wonder if you could not maybe challenge the power of the gods themselves with what you find at the heart of the Absolute. You have points in the Shadowcurse at which you have to decide between doing the "right thing" (right in the eyes of your goddess) or choosing the more opportunistic approach and make yourself stronger, nobody compliments you so wholeheartedly for doing the latter as Astarion does.

I loved all this little moments and along with his confession, they felt like the characters forged a path to deal with their problems together - without the help of any gods or maybe even in spite of them. I generally would love to have more opportunities to talk about power with him, the control a gnawing hunger has on you, what that hunger even feels like, the feeling of not being in control over your own life. The general notion of "power equals bad" falls flat in the larger context of the story because you need power to defy your enemies and oppressors. It's more a question of why you want that power and how you get it, but you do need some of it to be the master of your own fate.

Coming from that point of view, all the Spawn in Cazador's dungeons also deserve a chance to decide what to do with their lives. Astarion - to me at least - seemed conflicted about their fate and his confrontation with Cazador felt like someone confronting their abusive father and being riled up to lash out by that father. The insight check that Astarion isn't really in his right mind during that battle, along with all those people in the dungeons, made it quite easy for me to convince him to step down from the ritual. Whether or not to kill the other victims isn't even a question for me because allowing them to have a chance to live is one of the main motivations for not going through with the ritual in the first place. Besides, keeping Astarion a Spawn but killing the prisoners is just such a pearl-clutching-Paladin thing to do ...

Astarion's graveyard scene and the morning after conversation then made it very easy for me to stop pursuing the Crown too because the conversation works both way. He thanks the PC for believing in him but that in turn means the PC is fine just the way they are too and if that PC in question is Gale - well, I honestly think it works better as a boost to Gale's confidence in himself as a person than his own quest does.

I am quite happy with my ending. If I pull all the various adventuring type epilogues together they are both condemned to darkness at the moment but they are happily going about killing the right people - like shadow mages - plunder their magical secrets, while Astarion gets all the glory and Gale is just happy to be supportive and help others while pursuing knowledge. Sounds like a fun romp. I am sure they'll find some life-extensions in time and things to help against the sun. I also liked how the Gur stopped seeing vampires only as monsters and are now modifying their techniques to subdue vampires, to help their children deal with their hunger.

I'll give you a brief description of how I see spawn ending: you are his knight protector, and he is your princess. All that defense stuff just proves that you need power to survive in this world. It's very funny to tell Astarion he doesn't need it and then say "I'll protect you". I generally didn't like that he got too soft and naive, as if this isn't dark fantasy but a children's fairy tale with unicorns where robin hood only kills the "bad guys". Plus the entire game Astarion actively tries to bend the player to evil, big problem is that the game by default thinks you'll be good and try to bend him the other way. That doesn't happen in my game. So why do I need to play a hero for a "happy ending"? And why can't an evil character be happy in his own way? Why am I constantly reminded of "mistakes" in character responses or by the narrator's voice? In general, there are very black and white endings here. The exception is Minthara. But maybe she's just lucky because Larian didn't have enough time to write her storyline.

After patch 5 spawn Astarion seems to be better off without romance. He's having the time of his life doing basically whatever he wants, and I'm pretty sure he doesn't tell us about all the more questionable shit he gets up to.

The most traumatising romance for me was with Alistair in DAO when he stayed as a warden, you didn't let him sleep with Morrigan and you died as a hero by leaving him at the gates. He doesn't even show up on your funeral - probably too grieving to handle it. That gaming moment destroyed my old, idealistic self and made me realise that sometimes doing a shitty, questionable thing will actually work out better for you. That the world is not black and white but full of shades of grey, and that heroic sacrifice is a dumb thing to do when you can live a happy, adventurous life with your lover, friends and pets instead. This is also why I will never go for Tav becoming a MF ending.

I heard that romance with Astarion can be heart-wrenching and I saw his reaction after the breakup when you refused to be his spawn and was astounded, wondering what had happened to him after watching his playful scenes from EA.
Then when I actually played BG3 and understood him better I decided to ignore my meta knowledge and fully immerse myself in the world and go for the ritual, because it suited his and my character's story. I allowed all companions to do what they wanted in their personal quests, because I didn't think my chara should interfere. These were really drastic and life-altering choices and it felt strange telling them what to do when they've all known each other for several weeks only. Everyone should be responsible for themselves and live with consequences of their actions - I didn't want to have that burden and be responsible/blamed if something went wrong. I realised that if I didn't like Astarion's behaviour after his ascension I would have to breakup with him as a result, but it was still better knowing that he'd have a great life rather than be reliant on someone else. Fortunately, I didn't have to do it.

When I played, I found myself agreeing with him almost all the time - he has more than 200 years of life experience and has seen the worst things. He knows what he's talking about, and he's right about the power and the stronger eating the weak. Characters like Wyll and Karlach seemed like naive idiots who haven't figured out the rules of the game yet in comparison to him.

During the ritual or not choice I was panicking a bit that he might lose his soul. I wanted to help him ascend but then I chose to explore all dialogue options before committing to my designated choice to see what would happen. I was disappointed with Tav's options - you convince him by guilt tripping him mentioning the other spawn, or tell him YOU WANT him to be proud of his life. It felt weird to suggest things like that to someone who'd had no autonomy over themselves and who no one'd cared about. It's basicly telling him 'you've suffered so much, but it's a hero thing to be altruistic even if it means you will be miserable going forward' or 'it's what you want but this is what I want, doesn't matter you will be miserable but at least you can feel good about yourself for being such a good guy'. The most nonsensical comment is about the power trapping him, because they don't know all the details about the ritual and how it would affect him mentally, Tav is basically throwing bs in his face considering the ritual had been consistently presented as something that would actually free him from his physical ailments and weaknesses.

And then when I used the persuasion choice for the first time in someone's personal quest I was even more disappointed how quickly he agreed with me. The whole game he wanted more power but then one dialogue option happens and he just goes along with my suggestion. He was distressed, broken, hollow, and it felt horrible seeing him in that state. Then I read that journal phrase about his fate being sealed and it all felt wrong and bitter. Then I ran into the Gur and laughed at their pitiful mercy that I was sure they'd forget about right after Ulma's death or even before that. Astarion would still be hunted by other monster hunters, maybe other vampires, and possibly many other entities. I reloaded afterwards and went through with the ritual and it felt amazing, euphoric and cathartic. Like all this pain and misery actually had a purpose. That it was a stepping stone that allowed him to finally live a proper life that'd he always desired.

Right after the ritual I told him 'You did it! I can't believe you did it!' and I loved his response 'I did... We did.' and that's how you see his sudden confidence both in himself and in the relationship. There is always 'us' from that moment on, no longer 'I don't know what you are, etc.'. He knows what he wants and how much you mean to him. He makes all sorts of plans for the future and wants you to share it with him. In his eyes, you're finally worthy of his full trust and devotion. Unlike before where he even admits you've only earned 'a little trust'.

When he ascends he's living the life he always wanted to have, which is the immortal decadent aristocrat/magistrate with power. Who is Tav to deny him his dream life? To me it works beautifully that you give him everything and then he gives you everything in turn and you become a strong, harmonious couple with shared goals.
Ascended Astarion is a winner - someone who outsmarted his nemesis and won and got everything he wanted, someone who knows how the game works and how to play it. Spawn Astarion in comparison is someone who abandons his own needs for somebody else's morals and wants and from real life examples I know things like this don't end very well.

To me, the worst romanced epilogue with him is going to the Underdark with the other spawn - you live in bad conditions in some ruin, surrounded by Astarion's past flings, you're vulnerable because everyone must be craving your blood, and you're always scared some monster hunters might find you. And then you'll eventually die of disease or old age, Astarion will be grieving and maybe kill himself or be killed by the other spawn taking advantage of his moment of weakness. No thanks to that.