Larian Studios Forums Baldur's Gate III Baldur's Gate III - Story & Character Discussion [Act 3 Spoiler Warning] Request to Side with Emps and Orphs - Updated Edition

Context

This is an updated and refined version of my previous post. I want to improve and refine it as much as possible to get the attention of Larian Studios and perhaps see this hope of mine become reality! Now, for the actual mini essay, since patch 5 where the option was added to have both Halsin and Minthara join your side, I would please like to make a case for an addition be made that allows the player


How can this even be done?

As I look at the game, there are already pieces in place to allow this. Firstly, it can be a dialogue choice with an incredibly difficult saving roll. The player would most likely need to convince The Emperor to trust them and allow them to free Orpheus to assist them in the final battle.

Just like how you talk to your Companions and have your bond to them make them trust and like you more, we already also see that with The Emperor, though not in as much detail. You can comfort him, and you can gain or even break his trust, and this will cause in game changes, as the less he trusts you, the less vocal he is.

So, if you treat the emperor well, and gain his trust, that could also be the potential unlock condition for this dialogue option at the end. You will have shown The Emperor time and again that his trust in you is well founded, and now, he can still rely on you.


The Emperor's Side of the Story


Currently in the narrative, the Emperor believes that Orpheus would kill him and the party on the spot if he is freed. Not because the Emperor is evil or spiteful, but he truly believes a Githyanki that just woke up will immediately attack him on the spot, it makes sense.

Throughout the story, all of his actions are done in self preservation. Even if they are questionable, they are not evil. Even the narrator during the end game mentions that he is a true neutral character.

This is the reason as to why he decides to join the Netherbrain if the player says they wish to free Orpheus, because rather than dying on the spot due to Orpheus attacking them, when his hand is forced, he truly believes that he has a chance for survival if he sides with the Netherbrain. He has already escaped the hive mind twice. Why shouldn't he think he can escape it again for a third time after the storm has calmed down.


Orpheus' Side of the Story


When addressing Orpheus, while he does come off as abbrasive at first, he is shown to be open to reasoning.

He understands the situation, and after an insult, he immediately says that he will need and illithad to stop the Netherbrain. Additionally, as pointed out by multiple sources in the story, Githyanki view those who are infected with tadpoles to basically be Mind Flayers already, so if he is open to talking to the characters, he would definitely also be open to talking to The Emperor.

So I legitimately believe that if him and the Emperor were to meet, they would be able to come to a truce due to the situation.



The Purpose and Outcome of this Truce

A pact between Orpheus and The Emperor would be extremely beneficial for both of them when you step back and think about it.

If given the chance to talk to Orpheus, The Emperor will see that Orpheus is open to reason, and that his fears of being instantly attacked were not true.

In fact, the two of them working together would lead to the best result of The Emperor's goal of survival, as with an additional ally, and the support of the Githyanki, they have more forces against the Netherbrain.

With Orpheus needing an Illithad being needed to use the Netherstones, without The Emperor, either him or one of the heroes need to make a sacrifice in becoming a mind flayer, but with The Emperor, they will already have one.

Lastly, in the long term, it also helps the Emperor as if you choose to become a mind flayer and help Orpheus, he names you the Renegade Illithad, and an ally to all Githyanki, which he can easily also give The Emperor as his title is already the Renegade Illithad.


Conclusion

In my personal opinion, this ending would be the best outcome for everyone:
- Orpheus and the Emperor working together will sow the seeds of trust between Mind Flayers and Githyanki for the future, and open a possible road to peace between
them in the far future.
- The Emperor will be free of the Elder Brain's control, and will be able to peacefully live out his life as he wished, while helping other infected Survivors who are becoming
Mind Flayers, such as the heroes.
- Orpheus will be able to save the Githyanki race from Vlaakith.
- None of the Heroes would have to become an Illithad

Thank you for reading, and please let me know your thoughts down below

Nice write up.

I could imagine a situation where Orpheus and The Emperor work together. Ideally this would require some intervention on Tav's part. A persuasion check on the order of the check that brought down the mini bosses or an insight check that would impress the gods.

Because not only do you have the long standing hatred between Gith and Illithid to contend with you have the fact that The Emperor has been mind breaking and siphoning power from Orpheus all this time. It would be as if the torture victim in the goblin camp decided to get off the rack and work with Spike the torturer. Not impossible but Tav better make one hell of an argument.

And I don't think The Emperor would be declared a hero - I imagine Orpheus would say something like "I will give you time to escape and will not hunt you down - but it would better for you if our paths never crossed again"

As far as The Emperor being evil there's no question that he's evil. If the narrator says she's neutral she's wrong and she needs to talk with the writers because in the most recent interview the devs confirmed that he's evil. He's also listed as evil in the Murder in Baldur's Gate module.

https://www.ign.com/articles/baldurs-gate-3-final-interview-game-of-the-year-2023-characters-endings


You are right to say that he's a different sort of evil from, say, Kethric but he's evil nonetheless. Some of Kethric's evil actions are self interested but most of them are in service of Myrkul. Kethric serves a divine will while The Emperor serves himself. But self interest at the expense of others is evil.


As far as being neutral is this something added with patch 5 or are you thinking of "rogue mind flyer" dialogue that the squidified gets? Because rogue isn't the same status as neutral.

I do think your suggestion would be an improvement - no one needs to sacrifice their soul - but I would much prefer a good boss fight. To my mind this makes more sense than "I'm going to join the Netherbrain"

Emperor: I had hoped you would see reason but I've been preparing for this possibility. Have you forgotten that I can read your thoughts? That I know you have the Orphic hammer with you? Put away that hammer now or I will be forced to stop you.

I like your feedback, thank you.

Though I do disagree with the emperor being evil.

He is by no means good at all. But he is not malicious as he is manipulating you, but it is not to anyone else's determined other than the Elder Brain.

He just doesn't want to die and be left alone

You're absolutely right it would be the best ending for everyone.

Something I've been wanting to talk about awhile is how out of place the forced ending is compared to the rest of the game.

Think of it like this. You're the Emperor and the adventurers you've been helping want to free Orpheus. You're certain this will kill them, and you know you need an Illithid to use the stones to stop the Netherbrain.

If you leave, right now, you lose everything you've tried to achieve. The Netherbrain wins, and you have to eventually escape to try again, which might not even work because it seems like the brain planned on you escaping in the first place. Or... or you could wait 5 seconds to see what happens when Orpheus breaks free. If he's free and instantly tries to kill the party, or breaks the protection, then you're part of the hive mind anyway, it's no different than leaving ASAP. But if the party is right... Then everything is salvageable, you can still win the fight and claim your freedom.

This is where, in my personal opinion, the game cracks completely. Not because it's a bad game, not because the choice isn't meaningful, but the game design of freedom consistently clashes with artistic intent. From that recent interview, it's very clear that Larian had always intentioned the final outcome being 'Will you become a monster to be the hero?' or something a kin to that. So if that's the story they want to tell, this is the decision they came up with to give the player for that story. Yes there is a chunk of it before with illithid powers, becoming half-illithid, but this is the final nail in the coffin for that choice, for them to tell that story. But it falls a part so easily because everything leading up this can be handled in a plethora of different ways.

Ketheric Thorm, a person who's lived several live times, served three different gods, can be TALKED DOWN from his first half of the boss fight, letting Myrkul take over with his avatar. The goblin horde can be sided with, decimated, have their leaders assassinated, or ignored all together. Ethel can make a deal with you, force you to get the rewards AND save Mayrina, or not taking a deal and saving Mayrina. But the Emperor, is unable to wait all of 5 seconds for Orpheus to say "I hate you for what you did to me, but you're right. We need an Illithid, we need you."

To paraphrase something my friends once told me: "Sometimes you need to limit options to tell the story you want to tell." And for DMing D&D or TTRPGs in general, I cannot disagree with this more. Let them ruin my plans, let them make peace with the baddy. I might have a story in mind, but I'd rather they make the story themselves, instead of me telling them how it is.

That's not to say Larian is bad for this narrative decision. It's rather understandable to say "I made this, I want to talk about this concept, and I want the choice to be a difficult one." But this is just a crack in video games that offer freedom as much as possible. It clashes with artistic vision. We can have a game that offers as much choice as possible, and we can have an over arching story. But these concepts do not work well together when you are unwilling to move on a concept or question. Something has to break. And in this case, it's the players freedom to affect the story. No Persuasion check, no attempt, not even a side quest to get them to listen to us before hand regarding the whole subject.

I fully agree with this idea, and it's the ending I want most. But this is a crack from a game pushed to it's near limits of player freedom, while trying to have an artistic design. And while I am very much in the camp of "Forget your original design, let the players have their agency you've been giving them for 99% of the game (still holes here and there)", this is what they wanted to do, or something very much like this, for a very long time of development.

I agree with you completely.

I really feel like Act 3 had much more planned in it than we got. Not that it is bad, not at all, but if you go looking, you can definitely see some cracks here and there.

And this is the biggest one to be honest. It's one of the only times where there is no way to have both sides. Going back to Ethel, you can have her join you in the final battle, even if you go and kill her in the first act. You still have the opportunity to side with her in the end.

I really feel like they wanted to make The Emperor a companion in some form, due to how many similarities he has with other companions. For example, other than the brothel, he is kind of the only character you can romance outside of the player's camp.

He also reacts to the player's actions and his dialogue changes depending on how the player treats him. If you treat him as more than just a mind flayer, he really opens up to you and trusts you, and if you don't, he just remains cold towards you.

But at the end, it feels like he just goes into robot mode, as if nothing they have previously done mattered.

Thanks! I like your suggestion. I do think it would improve the game.

On the question of evil: I think the fact that's he's evil can be deduced from his actions - running the Knights of the Shield, destroying Setlmane's mind, eating people, enslaving Orpheus etc - but without that we have both an official WotC module and the Larian devs declaring him evil so it's pretty difficult to maintain that he's anything but evil.

Which is why I would much prefer a satisfying boss fight. Freeing Orpheus should be a great moment for Tav. Finally she gets to turn the tables on her manipulator. She has gone through a personal journey like the one Myrina did: from the victim of manipulation into an agent.

But, again, I do think your suggestion would improve the game

I dunno what I see in Emps. I'm someone who struggles with social stuff and empathy so I suppose because the Emperor is different, I identify with him on a level that others don't.

It's fascinating to see how others view him. I would think he is somewhere between neutral and evil.

In any case, I would like an option that allows the githyanki to be free from Vlaakith, without someone needing to transform into a mind flayer.

Since I just had that scene again: Yes, either you should be able to persuade those two or ... bring Omeluum to the fold. I mean, we know, that the Emperor is still somehow controleld by the Elder Brain, but Omeluum isn't, so if you save him in the Underwater Prison, make him available as your illithid helper. It makes sense - Omeluum was willing to give his life to save the Duke, the Emperor wants to survive at all costs - he even killed his best friend (and lover, I guess?) for it.
Another thing is, that LAe'zel should at least offer to become illithid in Orpheus stead, since she basically worships him. I don't see, why I have to change, but she sees him as important, so she should at least offer.

Oh, that would be my favourite solution! I don't think Orpheus would be willing to forgive a mind flayer that enslaved his mind, considering githyanki history. But I'd like an option to ask Omeluum for help, if you have him as your ally; he seems more powerful in resisting the netherbrain than the emperor anyway.

That and I mean, why would they have Omeluum in the story anyway? He doesn't really tell us anything new, he is just a nice guy to hang around with atm.

I seem to be in the minority, but I think having to choose between multiple unpleasant outcomes is good. As a RL person, I prefer happily riding off into the sunset and everything coming up roses. But as a player, I like the moral quandry.

Do you trust a guy who has a history of not being trustworthy? Do you let your friend blow himself up purely to appease a goddess who dumped him? Do you make the sacrifice and turn yourself into a soulless monster? Or do you have someone else sacrifice themselves?

Omeluum is somewhere in the city while it is under attack and isn't a fighter. The only person who could likely find and retrieve him is the emperor. Perhaps. Omeluum is a tough call; it just seems odd that he's *kind of* there and *kind of* helpful. The proverbial fly in the soup.

Yes, but you can also groom one of your party members to have him turn in the end game. Convince him to eat the astral worm and many other little worms so he half-turns. And then when in half-illithid shape he presents himself to the emperor or to orpheus as a volunteer to turn, they say. Sorry guy. (You're a powerful adventurer. You've done all these quests. You have all the illithid powers possible and are already half-turned.) You don't have what it take. I need to talk to the LEADER. That's also really bad.

I actually didn't even consider that!

It makes so much sense! Why don't you ever bring Omeluum to meet The Emperor? Would he not want to meet another renegade Illithad? That is such a big missed oppertunity!

I'm glad you felt those parts of story worked for you. I only felt annoyance at that moment - annoyance at the writing itself not at the characters - there was no weight to the decision. Trusting the emperor was never an option for me and I was continually annoyed that the hostile relationship with The Emperor was so poorly supported by the narrative.

"I'm glad you came to your senses"

"Mmmm, no, I'm just upset you didn't die when I stabbed the illusion you constructed"





I get that. I've had lots of discussions with fans of The Emperor and that does seem to a common thread. They see the emperor as 'queer' in the widest possible sense. As someone neurotypical who struggles with social relations, as someone gay who is afraid to show their true face to the world . . .

But, for me, if I were to choose a real world analogue for the brain eating space squid I would choose: abusive romantic partner. The Emperor lies, gaslights and manipulates for his own ends; he protects and provides *until* you disagree with him and then you see his true face. And while the alignment grid and real world morality are entirely different beasts if I were to judge him by the morality of our world I would judge him as someone who treats people as ends and not means unto themselves and so objectionable by the standards of Faerun and the real world. (and that's before we talk about the murder and organized crime)

Indeed it angers me all the more at the start of the chapter 3 railroad moment that he gets to frame our objections to him as if they were objections to physical form and not the fact that he's enslaving someone's mind . . .

I could go on a length but I don't want your point to get lost:


I agree completely. And while I would prefer a substantive rewrite your suggestion is a good one You should send it to the devs!

How would you rewrite it? I am more than open to suggestions and alterations, and in addition, how do I send it to the devs? Is that even possible?

Hey,

To send feedback to Larian you use the bug report form but you change it "feedback"

https://larian.com/support/faqs/how-to-submit-a-bug-report_85


Sometimes you get a reply, sometimes you don't.

I have loads to say about how I would change it but - as brief as I can be:

I would like to see a fully developed "distrust" path in the game. Starting with the ability to tell the dream visitor to shut up about tadpoles. If you know you aren't going to use them the repetitive "there's an illithid tadpole . . ." gets, well, repetitive. Enough! Tadpoles, got it, not going to use them and wish I could squish them.

The conversation after the stabbing should be very different - if my toon is sitting in her PJs next to the dream visitor it's because she is enthralled. I get that the emperor is very powerful mind flayer and probably has advantage + proficiency on all persuasion checks but this is should be a contested check. My toon's insight or perception vs the emperor's persuasion.

At the bare minimum the fact that we have just dispelled the illusion should be acknowledged. "I know this is a projection but what are you? Are you the tadpole? The absolute? An elder brain"?

There's a bug in Patch 5 that prevents Viconia from acknowledging that Shadowheart is in you party - even if you have Shadowheart talk to her. And I'm glad it showed up TBH otherwise I would not have found a dialogue tree that describes my toon's relationship with the emperor pretty well: Vicionia says she senses that you both need the artifact and hate it at the same time.

I want that feeling - this is alliance in which one of the parties hates the other - be acknowledged by the game. I'd not going to sit by side with my manipulator and contemplate the beauty of his enslavement of Orpheus. Perhaps meeting across a table? Something that reflects the emotional distance between the two. "keep your distance darling"

More than anything else I want distrustful Tav to have good lines. "your presence disgusts me" isn't a good line but it's the only one available to a distrustful Tav. "disgust" implies that Tav is motivated by xenophobia and not by: a) a moral objection to the emperor's actions or b) resentment at being lied to

Because my toon would be happy to sit next to Omelleum and talk about our plans to stop the absolute.

And, again, this is a bare minimum.

Ideally, I would like Tav to have the ability to challenge the emperor about the lies he's told and not allow him to have the final word when challenged. And I would like a "freedom from my bonds" speech like the one Astarian got once he killed Cazador . . .

SPOILER WARNING: DO NOT READ IF YOU HAVE NOT PLAYED DRAGON AGE:ORIGINS OR BG3 FULLY

The closes example to how this could be solved is in Dragon Age: Origins you had to chose between Alistair & Loghain but there was a way to keep both alive (but lose Alistair as a companion so not the best example) where if you went through Alistair's personal quest with his half sister you could harden him after the encounter with Goldanna by choosing a dialog options then later affirm it in the party camp which slightly changes his character slightly similar to Astarion when he ascends if you never played Dragon age.

With him hardened if you chose for him to rule with Anora you can spare Loghain from execution but Alistair leaves the wardens (and the party) to become king.

One way I think this could be solved for BG3 is to have a dialog option when you get back from retrieving the Orthic Hammer and he Psionically talks to you which opens the Emperor up to working with Orpheus.

"We could Persuade Orpheus to work with us" which will require high roll maybe 20-25 or something to that effect then after the encounter with the nether brain in the astral prism (When we know a mindflayer is required) if that roll failed the emperor will straight up refuse to work with Orpheus but if id did not fail a low roll requirement to persuade him to allow us to free Orpheus and have the emperor.

but there are probably better ways of doing it which I can not think of.

Adding some of my thoughts on things that could be done with the Emperor's storyline, kinda related to the idea of seeing a fully developed "distrust" path.

I feel like the Emperor needs to have the option to be more evil towards the party. Many remarks in the game, particularly from characters like Raphael, make it sound like we're being used and abused by the Emperor. But in the actual gameplay... he might raise his voice a little, but he can never DO anything to your party -- except in the case where he almost refuses to accept Minsc into the party. That moment was one that really stuck with me, as I thought I was finally seeing a glimpse of the conflict that was going to lead to me fighting him in the end, although nothing else supported that. (I was genuinely surprised when I chose to accept Raphael's deal, then tried to hide it from the Emperor, then let myself fail, and then he... still couldn't do a damn thing in retaliation. I was really expecting to see the consequences of antagonizing the mindflayer that holds our lives in his hands there).

I'd like to see more cases of the Emperor being able to more actively interfere with, argue with, or even harm the party, if the party is hostile towards him or fails to negotiate with him. For example, throughout the game, allowing the Dream Visitor / Emperor to psychically manipulate NPCs to avoid answering questions that may be inconvenient for the Emperor, rather than just complaining when the player pursues these paths. After revealing himself, particularly during the first fight with the githyanki, I feel like arguing or questioning him should have the potential to have the Emperor just temporarily mind control the party into defending him, since the game forces you to assist him anyway. Carrying on with this, I feel like the Emperor could be seen arguing with party members in camp scenes (like the old Lae'zel vs Shadowheart) and possibly threaten to expel him from his protection unless they submit to him. These sorts of encounters are mainly meant to cause friction with the player and make them "feel" the control and manipulation the game seems to think we should be feeling; actually losing a character to these encounters should ideally be rare, although the consequence might be upsetting your other companion by having to cave in to what the Emperor says, thus building a sense of "We need to get rid of this guy" among the party. For less hostile versions, the party members could be trying to demand help from the Emperor, which he is refusing (as in the Minsc case), and persuading him to help would improve relations all around.

For some examples of the Emperor interfering in the Orphic Hammer questline:

• If the Emperor knows that Raphael offered the party the hammer, and he notices the party attempting to enter the hells to steal it, then he can put two and two together and tries to interfere. If the party fails to persuade him to allow this, then they must resist his attempts to control them and destroy the ritual circle. If he succeeds, they cannot enter the House of Hope but can still bargain with Raphael. If he did not know of their intentions prior to them returning with the hammer, then he will voice his disapproval but will not act at this time.
• After retrieving the Orphic Hammer, if the Emperor has not been persuaded to allow this, a camp event can trigger where you wake to find Lae'zel (if available) wrestling with an NPC who's trying to make off with the hammer. The NPC is being controlled by the Emperor and was going to try to hide / throw away the hammer to prevent the party from using it. The party can possibly make a deal to allow the Emperor himself to keep the hammer if they're trying to convince him it's just a tool they want to have in case of emergencies (in which case, it'll be in the astral prism with him until the finale). He probably can't succeed in throwing it away, regardless; the camp is too alert, and he'll realize this was a futile effort.

For a "trust" path, in addition to the Emperor's own little quest (which I think needs to be reworked a little), there should be ways to convince the Emperor to be more cooperative, via diplomacy checks. Basically, a mix of showing him empathy and also appealing to his logical thinking (i.e. knowing how to argue that things are actually in his long-term best interest) and convincing him that actual trust, rather than controlling everyone around him, is valuable. If enough interactions with him are resolved this way, he'd be more receptive to the player's later proposal to negotiate with Orpheus, and far less inclined to betray the player in the end.

For the "distrust" path, if the player is either always forced to begrudgingly listen to the Emperor, or only persuades him via threats / intimidation, the Emperor will be very unlikely to negotiate with Orpheus, this route may even involve him ultimately betraying the player and taking control of the Netherbrain in the end (assuming they didn't kill him and side with Orpheus). This is the result of reinforcing his mindset that he must control the party for his own survival.

I feel like his personal quest needs a bit more of a proper resolution / choice than simply exploring his basement. Something a little more like what we see with Astarion, or even similar to Gale, where there's a sense that there is a choice that this character will be making, and what is done here will be a major factor in how it resolves. Personally, I thought investigating the truth about Duke Stelmane's connection to the plot and the Emperor was going to lead to something of the sort, but that isn't how it went. That is, rather than just concluding that she was on a list of random murder targets, I thought we'd be learning about what she and the Emperor were up to that led to his capture, with some unresolved threads for him to act on. There's flavor text in books related to that, but they had no bearing on the actual storyline.

Edit: For some other changes I would make to the finale:

I don't think that the Netherbrain should immediately turn all its infected into mindflayers, especially not the ones within the city. This means that, similar to the Gale Act 2 ending option, there are a number of "hostages" that are infected but can still be saved.

Then, if you side with Orpheus and kill the Emperor, I don't think it should be required that anyone turn into a mindflayer. Instead, I think that the result should be that Orpheus and his warriors can help you kill the Netherbrain -- but those who were infected will turn (except the party themselves, due to Orpheus's protection or the netherstones or w/e). This matches with how Orpheus expresses that the party were already a lost cause and should have allowed themselves to be killed by his honor guard; he doesn't see the infected as able to be saved. And in this case, I think that if you still want to save the infected, you will have to convince ORPHEUS to that you can be trusted to turn into a mindflayer and take control of the brain without betraying him. Probably some hard skill checks, otherwise he rejects this notion and will not let you transform (locking you into the "kill the brain but lose the infected" route). Orpheus himself will not turn under any circumstances.

If you side with the Emperor, he is able to take control of the brain, and as in the current good ending, he can free the infected. The catch being that with the trust/distrust branches in the Emperor's storyline, he'll only make good on this if you've been building a good alliance with him up until now. Otherwise, he just takes control of everyone for himself. If you turned into a mindflayer and demanded to keep the netherstones, you can still fight him for control in the end.

The option to get both Orpheus and the Emperor working together is a mix of both "good" endings -- Orpheus agrees to trust a mindflayer to save the infected, and the Emperor follows through on his part of the deal, sparing the player character from having to turn into a mindflayer unless they just felt like it for some reason.

Thank you, I appreciate the info and feedback.



I see. I like the idea of going down either a hate or trust path with the emperor. That would be really cool

I do think in the end, there should be options for the player to both be with or be against the Emperor.