Larian Studios Forums Baldur's Gate III Baldur's Gate III - Story & Character Discussion Finally able to articulate one of the biggest flaws with the main story/writing

This made me chuckle.

I am one of these people for whom the line between a masterwork and a good game is coherence and having something to say... so I have to agree that this bothered me. Massively. To this date.

This was fascinating to me as someone who didn't touch EA. I think that might go a long way to explain what I'm feeling with the companions in the full release, which is that they do seem to have a lot of thematic parallels (having curses, having complicated relationships with gods/masters, etc) that the story just... didn't actually make the connection between? Or made it feel like a weird coincidence, rather than something the Absolute might actively have been looking for. Knowing that each person would originally see a different visitor in their dreams and that this was going to be a more direct comparison between the companions does make some sense, although I do think it would probably feel a bit too contrived if they went with that. The uh... setup for Daisy on that is something I am definitely glad to have skipped, even if Dream Visitor is rather bland.

The thing that really frustrates me at times is that after Lae'zel and Shadowheart, they seemed to have completely given up on the companions having any actual reason to have come into contact with the main story, aside from being randomly abducted by the illithid.

For example, Gale is an experienced wizard who's been cursed by Netherese magic, which he's spent the last year studying. The Absolute, meanwhile, is affected by Netherese magic. This feels ripe for a setup where Gale sensed that the cult of the Absolute (even if he did not know them by name) was touched by Netherese magic and came to the area to investigate -- in a heroic interpretation, he came here knowing how dangerous this was and saw it as his duty to intervene, despite being weakened. In a more selfish interpretation, he came here hoping that these fellow scholars of Netherese magic might hold the key to curing him. It may not be obvious that this is connected to the tadpoles at first, but it'll hit around Act 2.

Wyll and Karlach both have ties to the hells and devils in their history, and the interests of devils seem to be hovering around the periphery here -- Zariel previously made a deal with Gortash. Mizora saw fit to investigate the cult herself. Raphael is monitoring the situation and looking for opportunities. Personally, I feel like having Zariel/Mizora grant their blessing to the heroes' quest to destroy the brain was a bit too... convenient. First of all, Zariel worked with Gortash in the past. Was she blind to this? And second, surely there's some way they could be trying to exploit the situation, even if they want the Absolute defeated in the end (Raphael gets closer to this). It seems like there was room for the devil's involvement and their opinions on the upstart "god" of the Absolute to be more developed, and it could have provided a very interesting perspective on everything the Absolute is doing, especially if the Absolute was basically viewed as a rival for gobbling up souls after luring them in with devil-like means.

Both of these seem like opportunities to have these characters start out thinking they were pursuing unrelated plots and happened to get tadpoled along the way, only for it to turn out that they were all investigating different branches of the larger conflict.

Another little nugget stuck in my mind was that, if the Absolute can do things like protect a vampire from the sun, it seems like that could be a marketing pitch for the cult -- join the Absolute, and be cured of curses, disease, infirmities, etc, and the Absolute helps those that the gods have turned their backs on. I probably wouldn't have made Astarion knowingly approach the cult (perhaps they approached him with the pitch / kidnapped him to test the effects of the tadpoles), for multiple reasons, but it just seemed like this was used as a throwaway excuse for why Astarion mechanically works like any other character, when it could have been woven into the narrative of the Absolute's doctrine.

Thanks for saying this! It's good to know I'm not the only one. I also can't complete a Durge run for similar reasons. The body horror after the party made think something like "this is too much, do people really enjoy this"?

I haven't even touched Durge, I've heard enough to know it is definitely not the path for me!

You can play as a good/resisting Durge, and in terms of your actions it’s not that much different from a good Tav. Except for like two or three involuntary things. Otherwise, you always have a choice. Even with the involuntary things, you do often have a choice over how it plays out. (For example, you may have heard that the Durge kicks a squirrel to kill it. Well, if you talk to the squirrel with the “speak with animals” skill activated, that doesn’t happen at all. So still, choice.) And I love it, I think it adds so much to the game for the player character to have an investment in unraveling the plot just as much as the companions do. I highly recommend it, even if it’s just once.

Those are exactly the problem. Along with the gore/body horror stuff.

One thing I dislike about the game is how Withers and a lot of other sources claim that Illithads have no souls.

But, that is not true. There are multiple sources from actual DnD monster manuals that state that Illithads and mindflayers do have souls.


It kinda feels like they were trying to have their cake and eat it to. Like, do you keep your soul and personality, like with the emperor, or do you just become a mindless thrall?


Also, I made an entire thread about how if you stop and think about it for 2 seconds, The Emperor and Orpheus could have sorted things out diplomatically because both sides need each other to beat the greater threat, and both sides are reasonable, up until the point where you are forced to choose between them with no way to alter or make them trust each other or anything.

One other big peeve I have is that none of the characters in act 3 think to say : "Hey, I know another mindflayer that works for the society of science. His name is Omeluum, he is a really chilled squid, why don't we go grab him, and not have to force someone to turn into a mind flayer?"

Wanting to have their cake and eat it too is a good summary of how a lot of the illithid plot ends up feeling.

I was leery of Withers' comment about illithid souls but didn't have the lore background to really question it. And ultimately, it seems like a pointless departure from the established lore, since it didn't have much bearing on the plot.

As for the illithid keeping their personality... I feel there was room to explore this idea, but it just wasn't handled very well, especially for the protag. For one thing, "mindless thrall" vs "individual identity" is already established as having to do with whether you can block out the elder brain (Omeluum seems like the more traditional version; no association with his pre-illithid self, but also acting independently from any elder brain). As for how much a mind flayer keeps their old "self," I can accept that there are "outliers," like the Emperor, who may retain more of their old memories and personality than the typical illithid. But I would have preferred it if there were some concrete factors that contributed -- for example, if the Emperor was rescued from the mindflayers right after being infected, and thus was not exposed to the elder brain early on. If he transformed in the care of his friends and was essentially forced to cooperate with them / to interact with people who kept treating him like his old self, perhaps that would result in a mindflayer that still retains much of his old identity, even if his personality has undergone significant changes. The idea that he could be kept flying under the elder brain's radar for years on end, just waiting for the chance to break free, seems a little odd. But at the same time, I believe that's also how the ulitharids work -- they gain independence because they are meant to break off from the colony and become new elder brains themselves. I originally thought the Emperor might have been one of these, but the game didn't go that way, either.

For me, one of the biggest "have their cake and eat it too" bits was actually the sex scene with the Emperor. For so much of the game, it's made to seem like the mind flayers are relatively cold and passionless (the Emperor himself is no exception, as seen whenever he remarks on the protag being "sentimental"), and in-game texts allude to the fact that mind flayers may not even their sexual organs anymore (not to mention that not being how they reproduce). It was unbelievably jarring to then have the Emperor not merely flirt with the protag, not merely indulge or exploit any sexual fantasies the protag may have about them, but to be presented as actually having a sex drive of his own, aimed at the protag. I could see many slight alterations to this scene that would have felt more consistent with the rest of what we see -- either for it to have to be player-initiated and the Emperor humoring them, or for it to clearly be more of an act of manipulation (cut back on the part about his own emotions being telepathically communicated, and leaning more into there being some ulterior motives present). I acknowledge that the game doesn't remark on the, uh, mechanics of how this scene played out, but regardless of whether those technically make sense, the Emperor's attitude towards the encounter felt incredibly off.

I can understand that, by the time finding a mind flayer ally is necessary, it would probably be too hard to track down Omeluum in the chaos of the battle and get him over to the brain. Though, I do feel like it's weird how little the game acknowledges his existence when discussing the nature of mind flayers. Like, the fact that the Emperor expected my character to be hostile towards him purely on the basis of being a mind flayer, when she had met Omeluum in the Underdark and was perfectly friendly with him... I feel like he should have potentially been more of a source for some interesting discussions about the lore and implications of what was going on with the Absolute, even if he wasn't really the type to get involved when a major battle comes.

The Guardian is more than "rather bland", he's the blandest flavour of recycled cardboard there is (the first few scenes feel like practically a word-by-word retread of D:OS2's gods), complete with patronizing and almost seemingly mocking the player directly with all the combat comments.

As for not being there for EA, eh, not much was missed in the grand scheme of things, because the EA players seem to have become an irrelevant minority compared to the ridiculous influx of fresh blood drawn in by the outlets praising the oh-so-defiant-and-creative (don't forget "inclusive" and "standard-setting") underdog and *that* Halsin's scene which is kind of very tasteless in hindsight given Astarion's backstory. If the EA feedback really mattered in the end, we wouldn't have had the sudden switch to the Emperor (time and again people refer to how it's still Daisy in the artbook), the removal of racial ability bonuses, the grove battle still taking place in broad daylight for no reason whatsoever, and numerous other oversights and dumbing-downs.

I suppose that I just feel like everything I've heard about Daisy (but have not experienced firsthand) makes the interactions sound off-putting, even if the Dream Visitor being the Absolute felt like the more natural conclusion. I looked up some clips of EA Dream Visitor just to confirm, and it feels just a little too much like having a sexual predator breathing down your neck. At least, when I pick up a D&D game pitching the sort of "make your own character" heroic fantasy vibe, I'm looking for a more empowering mood, and the clips I saw impose such a feeling of helplessness and disempowerment on the player character. Not that there's inherently anything wrong with that kind of story, but it's certainly not what I think of when I think of playing D&D.

That's probably what you meant when you talked about not committing to a theme and vision, but it seems like they were probably caught between a target tone for the story and may have accidentally picked some plot devices that tread into territory that clashed with the vibe they thought they would have.

I do wish the Dream Visitor had more of a personality and just... more interesting conversations in general.

Personally, if I were trying to figure out how to pull it off, I'd probably go one of two directions:

1) If the Dream Visitor is the Absolute, then I'd play up the Dead Three as the main enemies that the characters are trying to fight from the get-go, with the tadpole situation feeling like an impediment. Then, I'd have the Dream Visitor largely trying to give advice or commentary related to how to fight the Dead Three, leaning towards "Wouldn't more power be more helpful?" and "There might be a way to use these tadpoles to your advantage against the Dead Three." Less pushy and invasive overall, taking some of the "patient mentor" vibes given to the current Dream Visitor -- but with none of that "I have to go! There's a battle going on behind me!" nonsense. Just a very calm, aloof presence, much more like a deity or devil who is ultimately unconcerned with whether any individual mortal falls for their temptations. Ideally, I think the Absolute should be able to present specific, viable paths to achieving certain objectives that would otherwise be difficult or require other sacrifices, rather than just offering vague promises of power / combat spells that aren't actually necessary to win any given fight. Prior to a final boss fight with the Dead Three (or whatever Chosen / minions they put on the field), the player will first confront the Absolute and either accept their power or free themselves from it.

2) If the Dream Visitor is "the Emperor," then first of all, I'd nix the Balduran nonsense and go with the story that the Emperor was previously "just another adventurer." Rather than the fight taking place behind them in the dreams being against Orpheus, I'd probably make it a dreamscape battle with the Absolute. Their reason for encouraging the player to embrace their tadpole powers is because one needs illithid powers in order to participate in this mental battle with the hivemind, and they are trying to train the player character to assist them, with there being some hidden catch that comes into play later -- for example, if the astral prism is "powered by having a captive mind flayer," then the Emperor will be planning to swap places with the player, escaping as soon as a replacement that can still protect them from the Absolute is found. Or perhaps they simply misled the party about their intentions and were always seeking to dominate the Absolute, but they needed to free up some mental capacity to devote to that effort. Alternatively, if the Emperor truly does have goals that align with the party's and plans to act in good faith, then I think there should just be a reason why the party itself is more of a threat to the Emperor. For example, if the Emperors need the party's assistance in the dream world, and if the Emperor is vulnerable during these visits (instead of that "just testing you" nonsense if you attack them), then it might make sense why an illithid would disguise themselves in order to avoid potentially being attacked while vulnerable. The struggle here is that, if the party does kill the Emperor, they'd lose their protector, but I think that could be reworked so it instead means that party has more direct "battles" with the Absolute -- for example, if the Emperor is gone, then on every long rest (after the health/spells are recovered but before the next day begins), the party gets pulled into a combat encounter with the Absolute in their dreams, forcing them to take damage and expend resources at the start of every day. This can represent the mental toll of struggling against the elder brain, a struggle that the astral prism makes possible, not easy.

But I'm rambling now. There's no way any overhauls this deep would ever be implemented now. I still hold out hope for at least some tweaking and cleanup, but that's about it.

Yes, and also DU's backstory/history, where even if we're not actually playing through all that it is not something I can abide as a part of my PC.

And I also reject the claim that BG3 gives us a lot of choices. The game is one of the most railroady games of all time, and the choices are at best the illusion of choice.

Speaking of the Dark Urge - I am yet to find time and a damn to give to go through the game a second time, but from what I've seen, there's also barely any interconnection between the "you are tadpoled" plot and the "you are a Bhaalspawn or something to that extent, somehow" plot. Is that truly so?

No, the complete opposite is true. I can't tell you why without spoiling the entire plot of the Durge, but rest assured that that is not a problem the plot has.

A problem is that for non Durges, there is never a certain reveal in Act 3, which means Tav is forever a random whose character sheet you better have written.

I see, thanks. That does suggest that the default Tav was probably meant to be the DU's equivalent before they got split into a "blank slate" and a Dark Urge. Makes it all the more irritating that we have basically no options for customizing our background in any way, at least choosing not to be from BG or having the backgrounds actually matter in any way in the game apart from inspirations.

Responding to OP:

- The fear of losing oneself or changing to mindflayer is always there, all the way to the final battle. (This is toned down a lot compare with early access. It become a none stop temptation. Some like it, some hate it.)
- Characters using illithid power or not, are not changed due to Orpheus power, which he inherited from his mother. We only know this at the beginning of act 3.
- Shielding is not equal to solving. Tadpole still in the head.
- Doesn't matter which path, good or evil, characters are forced to face the Netherbrain because of the above. Walk away from the Baldur's Gate city is not an option.(Basically the todpole is the plot device to force characters to fight the final battle).
- Characters safety (or any consequence using illithid power) is only certain after winning the final battle.
Orpheus, or his mother's (Gith), power is the only way to keep one from losing to self. That power allow Gith to rebel and almost wipe out the ancient illithid empire. It was mentioned a few times in the game. (It is official 'lore' of the D&D world.) So it is not as simple as "strong mind".

So yes, it seems silly to not use illithid power, if and only if, we look back at the whole BG3 event. However, to the characters, they don't have a crystal ball gazing into future beforehand.

My main issue is that it's barely (if at all) integrated with the characters' individual plotlines. The tadpole and the companions' personal quests exist in isolation from one another. You could remove either and the other part will not be affected, safe for perhaps Lae'zel's storyline (to an extent).

Orpheus' role in the plot is handled very clumsily as well. If he's the one holding back the influence and the characters are perfectly fine with the Netherbrain being unshackled and him being out of the Prism, then what's stopping us from killing the Emperor early and simply remaining within the Prism's power's range? The Act 2-3 interlude makes the character transform instantly as soon as the Emperor dies, while "betraying" him at the end of Act 3 allows to go ahead and use the Hammer first. Orpheus' honour guard must have had some plans as to how to liberate him, for them to invade the Prism without the Orphic Hammer - it being yet another plot device which exists solely as an added complication. And if Orpheus blocks out the illithid influence, why would we have powers and telepathy in the first place?

As for the "strong mind", it's not the resistance to illithid influence, but retaining the memories and the personality upon transformation is what's an issue. An illithid kills its host upon completing ceremorphosis. Orpheus simply changing into one with no explanation given (one would assume he actually becomes a mind flayer rather than simply assumes a form of one if it's irreversible and it specifcally requires an actual mind flayer to counter the brain, for whatever reason (it amounts to focusing on a spell, which you'd imagine a powerful enough spellcaster with an intelligence/wisdom to match would have been able to do regardless)) is another moment that is hardly making much sense.

Up till prologue, all companions are from different part of The Forgotten Realm. They don't know each other. They aren't friends with other.

Then they all got on the nautiloid for whatever reason and got the todpoles. That is an isolated event in their lives.

So isn't it logical most of that their personal quests has nothing to do with the todpole?

That also give as much freedom to player as possible, from choices to skipping.




^^^ This is very good catch!!! For free Orpheus path, the (non)requirement of Orphic Hammer is definitely a plot hole. ^^^
PS: Second thought, in interlude the Emperor is killed, but before final battle Emperor run away. Does that make a difference? Or does that become another plot hole, hahaha!!


Orpheus used a todpole. In D&D soul/mind can be separate from body. So it is possible to have body go through physical change but keeping the soul/mind intact. It is a magical world But nonetheless, that physical change does affect his mental status. That's why he sought death after the final battle.

Unless Orpheus has been confirmed as a shifter, it remains a deus ex machina, especially considering that if he were that, there will be no need for a tadpole in the first place, nor would the ceremorphosis be instant were he to infect himself on purpose, especially since time doesn't pass on the Astral Plane.

Again, it's obvious that the companions are unrelated to one another (as for being from different places in the FR - 4 out of 6 come from Baldur's Gate (Shadowheart, Wyll, Astartion, Karlach)), the problem is that their conflict of faith and personality are not in any way affected by the tadpole or the Emperor nudging you to develop illithid powers. In fact, the Emperor does not interact with anyone but the PC at all. Considering that Shadowheart was the original attuner for the Prism, it's at least strange. Not much point in re-iterating the original post's points here.

Whether you want it or not, Tav is "the leader" of the group. Even on first invite to the party, the others tell you to "lead on". And both emperor and orfeus refuse to talk to any other party member, saying they are not ready for the task (or something like that ) and tell the unfortunate companion to send "the leader" to talk.
It"s one of the things that is a bit immersion breaking for me. Why does everyone automatically bow to me as leader ? Something to just accept and get over, I guess.