Originally Posted by Brainer
Originally Posted by Jewel
This was fascinating to me as someone who didn't touch EA. I think that might go a long way to explain what I'm feeling with the companions in the full release, which is that they do seem to have a lot of thematic parallels (having curses, having complicated relationships with gods/masters, etc) that the story just... didn't actually make the connection between? Or made it feel like a weird coincidence, rather than something the Absolute might actively have been looking for. Knowing that each person would originally see a different visitor in their dreams and that this was going to be a more direct comparison between the companions does make some sense, although I do think it would probably feel a bit too contrived if they went with that. The uh... setup for Daisy on that is something I am definitely glad to have skipped, even if Dream Visitor is rather bland.
The Guardian is more than "rather bland", he's the blandest flavour of recycled cardboard there is (the first few scenes feel like practically a word-by-word retread of D:OS2's gods), complete with patronizing and almost seemingly mocking the player directly with all the combat comments.

As for not being there for EA, eh, not much was missed in the grand scheme of things, because the EA players seem to have become an irrelevant minority compared to the ridiculous influx of fresh blood drawn in by the outlets praising the oh-so-defiant-and-creative (don't forget "inclusive" and "standard-setting") underdog and *that* Halsin's scene which is kind of very tasteless in hindsight given Astarion's backstory. If the EA feedback really mattered in the end, we wouldn't have had the sudden switch to the Emperor (time and again people refer to how it's still Daisy in the artbook), the removal of racial ability bonuses, the grove battle still taking place in broad daylight for no reason whatsoever, and numerous other oversights and dumbing-downs.

I suppose that I just feel like everything I've heard about Daisy (but have not experienced firsthand) makes the interactions sound off-putting, even if the Dream Visitor being the Absolute felt like the more natural conclusion. I looked up some clips of EA Dream Visitor just to confirm, and it feels just a little too much like having a sexual predator breathing down your neck. At least, when I pick up a D&D game pitching the sort of "make your own character" heroic fantasy vibe, I'm looking for a more empowering mood, and the clips I saw impose such a feeling of helplessness and disempowerment on the player character. Not that there's inherently anything wrong with that kind of story, but it's certainly not what I think of when I think of playing D&D.

That's probably what you meant when you talked about not committing to a theme and vision, but it seems like they were probably caught between a target tone for the story and may have accidentally picked some plot devices that tread into territory that clashed with the vibe they thought they would have.

I do wish the Dream Visitor had more of a personality and just... more interesting conversations in general.

Personally, if I were trying to figure out how to pull it off, I'd probably go one of two directions:

1) If the Dream Visitor is the Absolute, then I'd play up the Dead Three as the main enemies that the characters are trying to fight from the get-go, with the tadpole situation feeling like an impediment. Then, I'd have the Dream Visitor largely trying to give advice or commentary related to how to fight the Dead Three, leaning towards "Wouldn't more power be more helpful?" and "There might be a way to use these tadpoles to your advantage against the Dead Three." Less pushy and invasive overall, taking some of the "patient mentor" vibes given to the current Dream Visitor -- but with none of that "I have to go! There's a battle going on behind me!" nonsense. Just a very calm, aloof presence, much more like a deity or devil who is ultimately unconcerned with whether any individual mortal falls for their temptations. Ideally, I think the Absolute should be able to present specific, viable paths to achieving certain objectives that would otherwise be difficult or require other sacrifices, rather than just offering vague promises of power / combat spells that aren't actually necessary to win any given fight. Prior to a final boss fight with the Dead Three (or whatever Chosen / minions they put on the field), the player will first confront the Absolute and either accept their power or free themselves from it.

2) If the Dream Visitor is "the Emperor," then first of all, I'd nix the Balduran nonsense and go with the story that the Emperor was previously "just another adventurer." Rather than the fight taking place behind them in the dreams being against Orpheus, I'd probably make it a dreamscape battle with the Absolute. Their reason for encouraging the player to embrace their tadpole powers is because one needs illithid powers in order to participate in this mental battle with the hivemind, and they are trying to train the player character to assist them, with there being some hidden catch that comes into play later -- for example, if the astral prism is "powered by having a captive mind flayer," then the Emperor will be planning to swap places with the player, escaping as soon as a replacement that can still protect them from the Absolute is found. Or perhaps they simply misled the party about their intentions and were always seeking to dominate the Absolute, but they needed to free up some mental capacity to devote to that effort. Alternatively, if the Emperor truly does have goals that align with the party's and plans to act in good faith, then I think there should just be a reason why the party itself is more of a threat to the Emperor. For example, if the Emperors need the party's assistance in the dream world, and if the Emperor is vulnerable during these visits (instead of that "just testing you" nonsense if you attack them), then it might make sense why an illithid would disguise themselves in order to avoid potentially being attacked while vulnerable. The struggle here is that, if the party does kill the Emperor, they'd lose their protector, but I think that could be reworked so it instead means that party has more direct "battles" with the Absolute -- for example, if the Emperor is gone, then on every long rest (after the health/spells are recovered but before the next day begins), the party gets pulled into a combat encounter with the Absolute in their dreams, forcing them to take damage and expend resources at the start of every day. This can represent the mental toll of struggling against the elder brain, a struggle that the astral prism makes possible, not easy.

But I'm rambling now. There's no way any overhauls this deep would ever be implemented now. I still hold out hope for at least some tweaking and cleanup, but that's about it.

Last edited by Jewel; 30/12/23 06:37 AM.