Larian Studios Forums Baldur's Gate III Baldur's Gate III - Story & Character Discussion The romance with Astarion pulls you over to the "dark side".

I totally agree. It's clearly depicted in an ending where Durge breaks up with him, where as spawn he's fearful and holds a knife behind his back when talking to Durge, while as Ascendant he is perfectly calm and knows he'd immediately destroy them if they tried anything funny.


It certainly looks that way with spawn Astarion. Ascendant actually admits to being lonely so I think he's better off staying with Tav (who completes him as he admits himself).

What's this now? Never saw the knife one.


Left alone this man would become a boss fight in BG4.

It's there around the 0:40 and 1:00 minute mark.

Even the ending in which he ends up with Gale in Waterdeep gave me that impression. I mean, "You have certainly exposed me the sides of Waterdeep I'd never had the pleasure of experiencing until now. If 'pleasure' is the word for such places ..." is open for interpretation but it sounds like not strictly legal stuff to me.

That is so Astarion though. Always ready to knife someone with the excuse of "it had to be done".

Also that "people can be quite meek after seeing you murder their former master." He's such a dick, I love it.


That sounds like Gale took him to a library and he was bored.

That's Gale's text, so Astarion took him places where the wizard is out of his element.

Without a doubt! He'd make a great villain.

Yes!
Who will pull me over to the dark side, as well ?:

My Tav was a friend to Gale, and from the outside, I felt like Gale would be better off if he could release his feelings for Mystra and become stronger. In my eyes, Mystra is a traitor who left Gale in the lurch when he needed help the most. She wanted him dead (and the death of everyone else at the same time), made him a "live bomb", and he continued to remember her and wish for her "forgiveness" even afterward. She doesn't deserve the Crown, and perhaps it's better for Gale to really "become an opportunist" and gain power himself. Perhaps I feel this way because I've always enjoyed playing as independent characters who are atheists, and I stand in solidarity with Astarion in his attitude towards the gods (or Astarion's story itself has additionally influenced my attitude towards the gods). Of course, if you look at Gale and Mystra's story not as a couple's relationship but as a "goddess and a misbehaving mortal" story, there would be a different perspective, but isn't that demeaning to Gale himself?

"The insight check that Astarion isn't really in his right mind during that battle, along with all those people in the dungeons, made it quite easy for me to convince him to step down from the ritual. Whether or not to kill the other victims isn't even a question for me because allowing them to have a chance to live is one of the main motivations for not going through with the ritual in the first place."

For me, that was the only motivation at all (although I can't argue with those who point out that those 7000 spawns can do a lot of evil). But now I see this check as just a trap, a snare for Astarion and an overly naive Tav. Because I need assurance for Astarion, not hope. The conversation in the graveyard leaves rather a mournful feeling, to be honest. And the whole subsequent journey with him as well. I can see the anguish on his face whenever the other companions' plots mention power, denial of power, or anything like that. I'm willing to accept that I'm a bad person and let my Tav get a well deserved "evil" badge on her chest, but I don't give a damn about the Gurts and their attitude, if they attack, they get theirs, I care about Astarion's well-being. Yes, I feel sorry for the spawn, and you can rightly reproach me with the fact that "you could have been in Sebastian's place", but everything has its price. The worldview change in the Astarion novel does happen right in the course of the game (it makes me laugh now to remember how naive my Tav was in the first chapter). You can fantasize and imagine that Tav and Astarion (or Gale and Astarion, as in your case) will find other ways of doing things if they refuse Ascension, but unfortunately those ways aren't in the game itself.

I agree with you, and I like Ascended Astarion much better, independent and behaving as he wants. He kind of "charges with his energy", I can feel it, and I get my own portion of good mood. Perhaps that's how empathy works - when your favorite character is unhappy, vulnerable and doomed, it's just physically impossible to get any pleasure from the game. And vice versa, when you can not "suffer for him", and have fun and enjoy with him, the game begins to really capture. The evil character can actually be genuinely happy, and since I've always "played on the side of good" in other games before, it was a real new experience. Basically, it doesn't matter so much what Astarion's "evil" ending says, the game itself has the feeling that everything is going to be okay now.

Come on, my Astarion seems to be doing just fine too :)) I'm afraid already the player himself (like me) would be too thin without romance with Astarion :))

"The most traumatising romance for me was with Alistair in DAO when he stayed as a warden, you didn't let him sleep with Morrigan and you died as a hero by leaving him at the gates. He doesn't even show up on your funeral - probably too grieving to handle it. That gaming moment destroyed my old, idealistic self and made me realise that sometimes doing a shitty, questionable thing will actually work out better for you. That the world is not black and white but full of shades of grey, and that heroic sacrifice is a dumb thing to do when you can live a happy, adventurous life with your lover, friends and pets instead."

That's right, and that's exactly what happens with Astarion. In DAO, I also started a romance with Alistair, but then I met Zevran, rebooted, and preferred a romance with him. And with Alistair, indeed, if you act like a "hero without fear and reproach", you get very bitter and tragic...

"I heard that romance with Astarion can be heart-wrenching and I saw his reaction after the breakup when you refused to be his spawn and was astounded, wondering what had happened to him after watching his playful scenes from EA."

Yeah, after that reaction, you're ready to get on your knees, on your head, just so it doesn't happen. If you go up to him afterwards, you can see that he is angry at Tav as a traitor, turns away so that you don't see his face, you can see that he feels bad.

"I allowed all companions to do what they wanted in their personal quests, because I didn't think my chara should interfere. These were really drastic and life-altering choices and it felt strange telling them what to do when they've all known each other for several weeks only. Everyone should be responsible for themselves and live with consequences of their actions - I didn't want to have that burden and be responsible/blamed if something went wrong."

Very interesting option, in the next playthrough I want to do that too. It's realistic and makes the game more interesting.

"During the ritual or not choice I was panicking a bit that he might lose his soul."

I was regularly plagued by this question even before the ritual. When Tav goes to bed at the beginning of the third chapter (before that there was a conversation with Astarion about the ritual), and there's an "inner dialog" that starts with something like "You can't sleep," I totally agreed with that, how can you sleep, what to do with this ritual, my God! And then "Ahhh... So you don't mean that, okay... Let's pick some line like "I'll do it as I do it, something will work out".

"I wanted to help him ascend but then I chose to explore all dialogue options before committing to my designated choice to see what would happen. I was disappointed with Tav's options - you convince him by guilt tripping him mentioning the other spawn, or tell him YOU WANT him to be proud of his life. It felt weird to suggest things like that to someone who'd had no autonomy over themselves and who no one'd cared about. It's basicly telling him 'you've suffered so much, but it's a hero thing to be altruistic even if it means you will be miserable going forward' or 'it's what you want but this is what I want, doesn't matter you will be miserable but at least you can feel good about yourself for being such a good guy'. The most nonsensical comment is about the power trapping him, because they don't know all the details about the ritual and how it would affect him mentally, Tav is basically throwing bs in his face considering the ritual had been consistently presented as something that would actually free him from his physical ailments and weaknesses."

I agree 100%. Because that's exactly how it is.

The more you learn the facts, the longer you play the game, the clearer it becomes that Ascension for Astarion is his only real path. And the rejection option is just a trap.

I sincerely enjoyed your post and your deep insight into the plot. Thank you.

I think, that is a very black and white way to look at it, either become a god or grovel before Mystra. The whole God of Ambtion thing seems to be something he does to spite Mystra and to show that he can control the Crown. The whole mess started because he wanted greater knowledge and understanding of the Weave, becoming the God of Ambition gives him none of that. On the other hand, following Lae'zel's advice to trust in his own immense talents and the mighty company he keeps, would. When you talk to him about Shadow Magic at the beginning of Act2, he seems tempted to try if he can handle it. He also seems to have no objections against using it because for him magic is just a tool and what you use it for makes the difference. The only reason he does not use it, is because Mystra forbids it. So the best solution seem to be, to just care less about was Mystra says and instead to rely on his own moral compass and the opinion of his close friends.

That leaves the Crown - and it's probably for the best if Mystra keeps it safe, otherwise it's just a matter of time before someone causes havoc with it again - most likely Raphael. So just give it to her and be done with it and with her. I don't see anything wrong with that. At the same time the Graveyard Scene doesn't leave me with a mournful feeling, quite the opposite. Starting something new is always scary.

Unfortunately, this is a fail for Gale's story. The bomb in his chest was supposed to be Gale's curse for encroaching on Mystra's place. His original storyline was similar to Astarion's in that he always wanted to be a God. Then that got cut out, with the description on the website being changed right for the game's release.

All of the stories could have been more in-depth, but each one was softened. Now he's just a "good mage who wanted to please the goddess". But he was supposed to be the prototype for the new Karsus.

From his depiction of the events I was a bit surprised that he wasn't a cleric because the attitude to ask or charm for favours seems like a cleric's approach. But I can't say anything about the EA, so all I have, is what there is.

I actually see it differently. The narrator talks about his fear, which we know is his motivator from the start of the game - nothing new there. She also mentions the smell of blood and the promise of power being close as intoxicating to him. These are things he loves, and having them makes him feel good. While he may be a bit fixated on them in that moment, ultimately it doesn't change the fact that this is what he's been going for all along. Even if there was no blood around, he'd still want to ascend. He's plotted and waited for that moment to happen, so of course he's feeling elated when he can finally enact it. To me it just makes him more determined and aggressive in that instance. He can perfectly articulate counterarguments to Tav's objections and suggestions. If you fail a persuasion check he will also say how he doesn't want to live a crappy half-life. He knows exactly what is at stake. He sees the power of the ritual and the freedom it will grant him. He's coherent, rational and pragmatic, therefore he can think clearly.


I would personally call it his fated path, because it really seems like his destiny. Having lost everything, rejected by the gods and then through a seemingly coincidental turn of events he gets a one in a lifetime chance to succeed and take everything from his master and despite all odds he rises to the top in the end. It makes for a great story.
Instead of being helped by the gods, he is helped by the devils - first Raphael and then he receives Mephistopheles' blessing. Even when he is in hell he mentions he feels at home in there. Sometimes it makes me wonder if his ascension was some diabolical plan all along.

It it also the logical outcome. There are all these bits here and there where it's clear that he is trying to lure the MC to the dark side, and convince them that power is something they should both strive for and enjoy together. I'll mention the most memorable scenes I could quickly go back to.

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It starts with the bite scene when he almost kills you: 'And look what you've gained. Together we can take on the world.'
He considers the tadpole as valuable power and a gift and encourages you to use it and embrace the abilities it grants you.
Before getting to Moonrise Towers he says 'You know, I feel a connection between us. Like we're two souls walking the same path. Whoever's waiting for us at Moonrise Towers controls it all. But if we can take that control from them, imagine the power we'd wield. Imagine, the entire cult under our thumb. If we can control the tadpoles, we can keep ourselves safe and enjoy a little world domination on the side.'

Once he learns of the ritual, he focuses on that instead and starts imagining himself as a lord and Tav as his consort, though the latter can only be read between the lines at first.

When he talks about Cazador's ritual: 'This may be a beginning, not an end. I can see myself now. Lord, King, Master. We'll be glorious both, you and I. You'll have your day, too.'
After meeting Dalyria and Petras: 'We have to face him and take that power for ourselves. Technically only I will ascend and gain the ritual's power. But we're a team. If I become all-powerful, then we become all-powerful. Nothing would make me happier.'
After getting attacked by his family: 'We aren't like them. We are better.' (This one in particular makes it sound like he already sees Tav as a vampire.)
After ascension: 'Everything will be ours. Everything.'
After killing the Gur: 'Who better to test these new powers on? And who better to be standing by my side than you, who helped me get them?'
When trying to convince Tav to become a vampire: You're the one that I want, the one that I love. And you could be so much more. We could be together for eternity, ruling this world side by side. We could have it all.'
After Tav has joined him: 'First we'll take Baldur's Gate. Then we'll take the world. We'll dominate it until the sun itself melts, and then we'll give ourselves to the night.'
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Everything is basicly leading to the ascension and Tav becoming a vampire. Rejecting it isn't just an alternative choice but it is also going against the whole plot setup. To me it's also rejecting Astarion's dark nature and wanting him to be more human, instead of a vampire that he is. There's a reason why he seems so broken and unnatural. It's because he doesn't know what to do at that point. His dream life is no longer possible. When he invites Tav out he says he is reassessing what he wants, meaning he wanted something else initially. He's in cope mode. Maybe that's why you feel mournful about the graveyard scene.

It's pretty much this: Spawn = Astarion lite for more sensitive people, and Ascendant = full Astarion experience for the daring ones.
No ritual is a perfectly valid path of course, but I think Larian did both Astarion and the players dirty in that scenario (there's also a whole thread about it), and I wish they made it better.

I think Astarion would make a great boss with Tav as well. He could use a general, a sort of "personal Keterik Torm". We know how Astarion "loves" to plan, and "his consort" could complement him perfectly in that.

It would be truly awesome to meet Astarion's "evil boss" in BG4. Playing quietly, "doing good deeds" and then going, "Wow, it's Astarion! Hello, my beautiful!" And then change your aligment again, take his side, take his quest, piss off all the new companions... I personally know someone who, after meeting Viconia, overplayed, made Shadowheart kill Eileen just to make his favorite companion from BG2 feel good.

Ok, I accept. If I completely dislike Mystra as a person (because of what she does to Gale), that doesn't negate the fact that she's quite effective as a goddess of magic and the world isn't going to be made worse off by having the Crown in her hands. But why doesn't Gale deserve to gain power himself and get closer to the divine? He's intelligent, rational, he's not violent or bloodthirsty, and I think he'd be a good use of that power. When I persuaded him to use shadow magic and make a lantern in Act 2, he was genuinely pleased with the result.



Raphael? I kill him in both cases - the first time, more on emotion, because the devil could probably offer me a deal in exchange for healing Astarion (or show me the right way to do it), and then he'd get his Crown and whatever else he might want. Now I'll kill him to save Hope (and the loot in his house is worth a visit for that alone). You have Raphael alive? Then how can you complete Laezel's quest with the Hammer if you don't kill him and promise him the crown?



In the graveyard, Astarion looks as sad as ever, except more sincere and warmly demonstrates his love for Tav. But his phrase, "Thank you for your patience..." strikes me as humiliating to him. What "patience" can we talk about when I've enjoyed every minute of his company? (Except for those moments when you have compassion for him and you're hurting for him). One can only speak of "patience" with Astarion regarding the acceptance of some of his behavior after the Ascension, but not with Astarion in chapters 1 and 2. And the way he dutifully folds his arms and acquiesces if you happen to pick the wrong line in dialog (in the case of Tav seemingly refusing to be intimate with him). I don't see him starting to respect and value himself.



I like these words. But for me they refer more to the relationship with Ascended Astarion, because the change of behavior of a loved one (especially if it happens so abruptly) is not always easy to accept at once. And although Astarion shifts Tav's aligment closer to "evil" in relation to the world, he teaches wisdom and understanding in close relationships, shows how important it is to look not "inside yourself" but at the other person, not to take words literally, but to understand what feelings and emotions are behind these words. And in the case of refusing the ritual, what new things happen? Just that Kasador is dead at last, but otherwise Astarion remains a spawn with all the problems that come with it.

After that, I'm even more eager to help Gale get the Crown of Karsus. After all, if Astarion has his Ascension and his beloved in my story, then Gale should have something too, right? Let him get what he deserves too.

It's interesting how much can be said including the failure of a test. And how much nonsense it can turn out to be if you try to do everything "right". When I was floundering, not knowing what to do with the ritual, I regularly came across opinions like "If you love Astarion, don't ascend him or you'll lose him" or "Astarion needs someone to take care of him and keep him safe, including from himself". This superficial view confused me, preventing me from rationally analyzing the plot and truly understanding Astarion. Astarion knows exactly what he wants. And how wonderful it is to eventually get into his true story and walk the path of his destiny with him. I am looking forward to a new playthrough with Dark Urge, the opportunity to take a closer look at all the key plot points you mentioned (maybe I'll discover something else) and choosing worthy answers to them in order to put together a coherent and beautiful story that is really worth videotaping and keeping as a memory.


It is quite possible that devils (especially serious types like Mephistopheles) like to "play the long game". Hell certainly benefits from having a new Ascendent in the world. Raphael has his own benefit - he gets an Orton Jugrir on a platter. Veliot is also interesting - why did he show Astarion and I his history with Kasador and teach us lessons? Afterwards his spirit leaves his skull, perhaps this is how he laughed at Kasador and got the last laugh, or perhaps something else...



It seems to me that Astarion - Spawn - on the contrary, is a powerful blow to the psyche of sensitive people (though it depends on what they are sensitive? To Astarion, or to some ideas of "goodness", what "right" relationships should be, and so on). And the Ascended did make me braver.


To be honest, I don't want to berate Larian at all for this plot anymore, because a new experience, albeit one that I wasn't initially prepared for or even wanted, ended up being even more exciting than what I had originally dreamed of.