Larian Studios Forums Baldur's Gate III Baldur's Gate III - Suggestions & Feedback This game needs an expanded evil route

The game has a big problem with "evil" choices just being dead ends. A good example would be the groove situation. You can save the grove, which will give you 1 new companion with a storyline, allow you to continue the storyline of a different companion, and the story lines of a bunch of different side characters who you will meet again and again throughout the game. Or you can raid the grove, which will also give 1 new companion, AND it will actually make you LOSE 2 other companions and completely end the tiefling story line without adding a new story line to replace it. It just seems so jarring that one option is the correct option which the developers fleshed out and completed, and the other is a half done option which will kill off a bunch of different characters while adding nothing to replace them. This trend continues in act 2 where you can save Isobel and play the game, or kidnap her and have everyone immediately die around you while gaining nothing in return to fill the missing characters.

This rant now comes to my suggestion; add more evil stuff!
I remember that in the goblin party after you raid the grove, one of the goblins has a dialogue about continuing their raid to Baldur's gate. That would be so cool. Imagine in act 3 you can find a small camp of goblins sitting in a bush trying to ambush some guards. As it stands now, you never meet the goblins again from act 1, which stands as an antithesis to the tieflings of act 1 who continue to have a presence throughout the game until the end of the game. I think just like the tieflings, you should meet the same goblins through the game, and interact and do little quests with them more and more to build up a strange evil relation with them.
The same goes for act 2. Instead of everyone just dying in the inn the moment you kidnap Isobel and that's it. What if they survive, huddled around their torches, and then you can have a quest to come back with a party of absolutists to finish them off. Something simple to continue the evil story lines, rather than just have them end with an abrupt "and everyone died. The end." moment.
I think changes like this would go a long way to making the game so much more repayable, and if a big evil route update patch did drop a bunch of people would be rushing to replay the game to experience the true evil route. I definitely would. But as it stands now, most of the evil routes in this game are simply lackluster, and don't seem to stand up to the standards that the rest of the game delivers on.

I agree that it would be cool to have more developed goblin characters on the evil route. I don’t think they’re going to change it though unfortunately… I think in a recent interview either a head writer or Swen Vinke said that in the game, being evil is an isolating/lonely experience… a bit like in real life I suppose? So the isolated/lonely aspect of the evil path may be intentional.

… Or the amount of work to create a fully fleshed out evil path may have been too massive, considering that endings for the good path haven’t necessarily been very well-developed themselves. (I.e., Act 3 is lackluster at times.)

But like I said, more depth to the goblins would be a nice addition.

It's obvious from Act 3 that they ran out of time and even the "good" quests are undercooked. That said I think it's intentional that muderhobo behavior will isolate you, but playing a more strategic villain or a "corrupted by power" route can be very satisfying.

I didn't know being evil was made to be isolating. That's actually a neat idea, really reminds me of being evil in KOTOR 1. The whole isolation part goes great with the dark urge who wants to kill *everyone*; that's pretty lonely, I agree. But it doesn't really work with a normal evil tav. From what I've seen of the dark urge it looks great and is the way to play an evil character, but it's a very forced experience where you will be as comically evil as possible, no exceptions. I really wish there were more normal non-murderhobo evil choices, because most of the evil choices in the game seem to be oriented towards having the most interaction with a dark urge character, as opposed to a normal evil one.

I play as a resisting Durge and nope, it’s not as comically evil as possible. You don’t have to be a murder hobo and you only have one completely unavoidable kill. I play as a good character resisting the urges, but you can also play as a pragmatic/selfish evil character as Durge.

Isolating experience would be ok if you played as an unhinged murder hobo, but logical and charismatic villains tend to end up with a gathering of people who agree with their views, follow their command and want to see them succeed. You can side with Gortash for example, but then the game railroads you into a specific outcome. Larian just took a shortcut, probably due to lack of time to develop the game, and now they're saying it was always intended to be this way. Sure... It's easier to just give you extra fights, instead of creating meaningful content with new companions, storylines and alternative outcomes.

The ending of the game itself is proof of them simply not wanting to develop the evil path. The good ending is longer, has an epilogue, a newly added party. The evil one got nothing new. You also don't have a way to be villains together with your LI even if that's what they ask of you.

They could have at least added a half-assed little talk with your LI like the "romantic" epilogue you get after destroying the brain.

Yes, there should be a quick chat during the moment of decision and then some extra interaction if you decide to go for the evil outcome.

Besides the evil-evil path, the more casually chaotic path is also not so very well catered for. All this juicy blackmail material in Act 3 and you can't do anything with it. It would be so nice if you could give it to the Guild or to Wyll - if you want to build him up as a politician so he maybe owes you a few favours - or use it for yourself, build a second newspaper to sully Gortash's image, fun stuff.

The worm has wifi, they don't even need to speak during that moment if that's too much work.


And Gortash is just wasted potential all around.

To me, it's not even just a empty evil path, what the game really lacks is just any interesting alternative options (or a theme like "Do the ends justify the means") that doesn't involve murderhobo nor giving you everything you want with no consequences (The Good path).
Other RPGs (e.g. DA:O) would usually present you with a choice between taking the good option, leaving you with just the sense of feeling good but are otherwise weaker overall.

BG3 does come close once, with Ethel, where you can accept her deal for Mayrina in exhange for more power, but then it immediately undercuts this by skillchecking your way out of giving up Mayrina.
Slight tangent but this also makes no sense because:
a. Why would a evil person care to save her and a good person wouldn't choose.
b. Why would Ethel still give you her Hair if she gets nothing. Killing her means also nothing to her either.
And ontop of that, there are no consequences for this as Act 3 plays out the exact same and you don't need the hag brew to save the kid either.

And for other RPGs that do have a Pure Evil path, it's usually used as a quick path to personal power which, again, is somewhat used with Durge's first event giving you the Cape but then you subsequently lose out on the Potent Robes when you really should get both.
And then later with getting the Slayer form, it's practically worthless compared to the items you'd lose otherwise and it's extremely weak too afaik.

And this works for other RPGs because they see the Evil path as a power fantasy, no matter the cost, rather than just a psychopathic murderhobo, which seems to be Larians MO for "Evil" alternate paths.
But in BG3, it's just shooting yourself in the foot whereas the good path just keeps getting the best things consequence free.

Unfortunately yup.

BG3's idea of an evil playthrough equals to all worthy NPCs dying and the player having no content to play with while losing out on all the unique items and experience by doing so. It is simply not an evil playthrough at all, instead it is a punishment playthrough for not following the story as intended because any deviation from being a hero is just ensuring that the player has no content in future acts.

Not to mention that the player has to do some incredibly extreme mental gymnastics to barely justify committing any sort of action that goes against the obvious hero decisions, because the game does absolutely nothing to provide actual solid reasons, opportunities and content to explore them. And to make matters worse it actively keeps pushing the player towards hero actions wherever it can, such as dumping 3 tons of exposition any time an evil decision is at hand.

For example;

• Side with Minthara = Congratulations, after 3 tons of exposition you just ensured your ACT 2 is empty as hell and Last Light Inn has zero content for you, not to mention all the unique items you lost from Dammon, Mattis, Alfira etc...
• Side with Marcus = Congratulations, after 3 tons of exposition you had no content to begin with either way so you must really hate even this 0,01% of content we have for you in ACT 2

Where is Nere? Where is Marcus? Where are the Duergar? Oh right, bad guys get magically killed off-screen. Do I at least gain some unique content? Nope, because all the content is tied to the corpses I left behind in ACT 1. Not even the gnolls I rescued in Moonrise as Durge stick around to fight for me, they just magically vanish.

When I look at evil playthroughs, I look at Star Wars KOTOR games. There evil playthroughs are so well done and immersive because you can be the most sadistically evil Sith Lord that ever lived and experience an equal amount of content throughout the entire game by doing so. You gain some unique stuff along the way as well, but you're not losing out on content. Hell, even the Jedi Knight games did the same.

I am currently almost at the end of my Honour playthrough in which I sided with Minthara, Nere and Marcus. I cut Karlach's head off and sacrificed Wyll to the Kuo-toa because he was gonna leave anyway.

Well... I had no intricate content in ACT 2 whatsoever and now in ACT 3 there's not a single reference to any of my evil actions in previous acts, IN FACT the only reference is the Steelwatch calling me out for killing Absolutists in Grymforge and Moonrise. Ain't that hilarious, once again the game punishing me for not following the hero arc

This sounds like a bad excuse for delivering an unfinished product. The "evil" path is not a lonely experience, but one devoid of content.

They were not forced to provide a separate "evil" path. It is okay not to include it. It is perfectly fine to punish murderhoboing with loss of content. But, once they give you the option to pick between path A and path B, with the unsaid promise of equal quality, it's not unreasonable to expect them to keep that promise. The game presents the evil options as legitimate and viable alternatives. Just the mere existence of a companion tied to the evil path suggests that their (at least initial) intention was to provide a similarly fleshed out experience for players who want a darker story.

The thing we got is bad, and we should call them out for it. All the hype and the exceedingly positive reviews were based on the very first act. We are celebrating a bugged and unfinished game. Guess what lesson will the gaming industry take from this.

Can someone give me an idea of what an acceptable evil path would look like? Just the broad strokes. As someone who naturally plays "good," it's hard for me to understand what folks are looking for.

*

Below, I'm just kinda thinking out loud, trying to work through what evil would look like.

*

Assuming I'm Tav. I'm evil. I wake up on the nautiloid and rush to escape. I might run past Shadowheart; I might not, but neither has anything to do with me being evil. If I run past her, it's because I don't think I have the time to bother with the pod. If I save her, it's likely because I realize I need whatever help I can get.

So. I managed to get to the transponder! The ship crashed. That was crazy, and I have no idea how I'm alive. There's that Shadowheart lady. Maybe I steal her stuff? Or I wake her up and see if she can help me?

***

Nice, I made it to the grove. Had to help them fight off some goblins to get inside. Can the druids help heal this tadpole in my head? Guess I'm gonna find out.

Well, crap. That's a big fat no. Maybe I can find this Halsin fella?

***

Hmm. Weird, there seem to be people who worship folks like me. That's an interesting turn of events. Crazier still, some compulsion came over me, and I absorbed the powers of another tadpole. I'm definitely not back home on the farm anymore.

It's gets weirder. While I was looking for the druid Halsin, some goblins ambushed me. I thought I was a goner, for sure, but... the goblins had this glowing mark on their flesh, and they just... they listened to me. They obeyed me.

Am I going crazy? Is this what it means to become a mind flayer?

***

I found the goblin camp. They let me in and seem to accept me, perhaps even revere me. What a loud and filthy place. They're disgusting little creatures, both crude and violent, but not entirely without their small charms.

It appears that the goblins worship a being called the Absolute. And as "True Soul," I'm some kind of honored disciple of the Absolute or something. I don't know. I don't entirely get it.

I've pieced together enough to suspect that the bear they have imprisoned in the worg pens below is likely Halsin. I'm sure I could free him easily enough, but there's a bit of a wrinkle.

One of the goblins' leaders is a drow named Minthara. She wants me to tell her where the grove is located. Obviously so she can send a war party and slaughter them all.

It's been a while. I'm not sure what to do. Am I going to turn into a mind flayer or not? Minthara hasn't. Neither have either of the other two goblin leaders. Whatever's going on here, it's clear I don't understand.

Probably for the best that I play both sides for now. I'll tell Minthara where the camp is, and then, after she leaves with her war band, I'll free Halsin and see if he can heal me. If not, well, I guess I'm on Minthara's side.

***

Halsin's so full of crap. Couldn't do a thing to help me. Just mentioned some place called Moonrise. He barely knows more than me, and well, now I guess he doesn't know anything. If I hurry, I can probably catch up to Minthara.

***

I'm not entirely sure why we had to kill everyone in the grove, but what's done is done. I'm in tight with the Absolutists now.

Speaking of tight, we had an... interesting evening. Unfortunately, in the morning, Minthara tried to kill me. Not sure what that was all about, but we managed to work through it. She said I should go to Moonrise to be in the presence of the Absolute. Maybe I can get some answers there?

Or maybe I went batshit a long time ago. Who knows? I mean, I am hearing voices after all. Or rather, a voice.

***

It's been a long road, but I've finally made it to Moonrise! They sure have let the place go to shit.

The voice in my head is telling me I have to kill the Absolute. But maybe I could just be a high ranking member of the Absolute's church or army or organization or whatever. Wouldn't that work too? Besides, I haven't changed yet, and it's been a while. I mean, it still feels pressing, but not as pressing, I guess? I don't know.

They've got a full on army. I seem to be developing super powers. There are certainly worse ways to live. Not sure I care to be surrounded by all these goblins and ghouls, though. I'm not the cleanest fella, but these things are ridiculous. Not to mention all the shadows. Tav likes to get a tan, you know.

Anyway, maybe all will become clear when I meet the Absolute.

******

So. This is where I start to question what the evil path really should look like. Should Tav just join the Absolute? Get missions in the shadow cursed lands, maybe getting information from the Thorm relatives in Reithwin? Maybe taking out the harpers in the last light inn? Maybe capturing Isobel for Kethric?

Then get a position leading the army to Baldur's Gate? Or maybe get sent to Baldur's Gate to work for Gortash? Or work against Gortash?

Should Tav have a chance to meet the Absolute in the shadow cursed lands if he completes enough missions, and thereby become more evolved? Kind of like the Emperor evolves Tav, but this time just being evolved by the elder brain.

Anyway. It seems to me that playing "evil" means either toppling a good organization *or* working up inside the ranks of an evil organization. Or both, of course.

Whereas the "good" path is the opposite. Toppling an evil organization, in this case, the Absolutists.

So, at least from my perspective, it would take quite a bit of work to realistically offer both options in a game of this size.

Part of the problem is Larian giving *everything* (except Minthara, prior to the recent patch) to the "good route" even when it doesn't make sense.
Another part of the problem is Larian deliberately punishing "evil" choices - sometimes in nonsensical ways.
Much has been suggested (here and elsewhere) about alternate companions, but even simple thematic exclusives could have helped balance the routes without heavy investment of development resources - if Larian cared to do it.

That is the main issue with the "evil path" on a narrative level. There is little reason to attack the grove, other than doing the obviously evil thing.

The most simple way to improve this situation on the gameplay level would be to make tadpole powers only available for those who join the cult. You lose out on quests and great items, but you gain a set of unique powers. It's a far better deal than just getting a bugged companion. It would also make sense from a narrative perspective to have the option to join the evil cult for the powers they can offer.

They could have made the evil path so much better with almost a minimal effort. They didn't even need to create any new quests, NPCs or items. It would have been enough the distribute the existing stuff more evenly. They decided however to place everything good on the default path, thus creating the simultaneous illusions of freedom and abundance.

The fact that they recently allowed the knock-out method for recruiting Minthara on the good playthrough shows that they have 0 intention to give us a proper alternative. She was the only semi worthwhile thing you got for doing evil stuff. I have little hope left at this point.

This is exactly my point. I would also add that the evil choices in the game aren't actually evil choices, they are straight-up idiotic choices. The only make some sense for a Bhaalspawn following the ideology of killpeopleism. 'Oh, look, a bunch of people want to be our only allies in this dangerous shadow-cursed place. Guess what, we are going to bath in their blood.' And even if we don't immediately murder all the people at the Last Light for the crime of existing, they will all die once we kill the Nightsong. So we're going to lose tons of content, two potential companions, allies in the final battles in Act II and Act III and plenty of other things. And in exchange for all that we will get cool armour and weapon. As much as I adore the sight of Dark Justiciar paladin-warlock Shadowheart smiting everyone into oblivion, it's just not really worth it, even from a gameplay perspective. Oh, and our beloved dark-haired girl will now forever serve Shar, and literally every piece of information we get about Shar throughout the game screams that it's not a good idea to serve Shar.
I know Shar is an evil goddess with no love for her followers, but maybe she could have at least given us permanent protection against shadows? Or even sent an army of shadowed creatures to assist us in our assault on the Moon Towers. That would at least add some sense to side with Shar from gameplay perspective.

The narrative reason is to infiltrate the cult and learn more about the tadpoles
It makes enough sense from the characters' perspective, but since Larian allowed players who save the Grove to infiltrate the cult anyway, the meta or player perspective becomes "No consequences for the good route, heavy content loss for the evil route."


Agreed. And honestly, my thoughts run more pessimistic - I wonder if they'll both ruin her character and further the content imbalance by giving those players a "Minthara redemption path".

Soft disagree.