Larian Studios Forums Baldur's Gate III Baldur's Gate III - Story & Character Discussion The romance with Astarion pulls you over to the "dark side".

I think he deserves better than becoming a god. I don't care much for gods personally and the story suggests that all gods, who used to be mortal, loose a part of themselves to their divine domaine at some point. Why would I want that for a character I care about? And what do you get from divinity in the end? A glorified, boring management position. He himself mostly seems to want it to get back at the gods (Mystra) and because he thinks his god-self would be the "best possible version of himself". I disagree. He is brilliant as a human, that already is the best version. Nobody needs gods - but brilliant, kindhearted, generous people are far and few between.

As for Raphael, death does not seem to be so final for devils and the like. I am sure he'll be back - and even if not him, someone else will try to put that crown to use. So it's good if it's locked up somewhere, let Mystra fret about it, it's her job.


I think the patience to allow him to come to terms with his own feelings and give him space. It's the decent thing to to do but I don't see anything wrong with him telling you that it means a lot to him. For example, I saw a lets play of someone doing the love test with Astarion. The player picked all the answers that revealed Astarion's insecurities to the dryad and - of course - Astarion disapproved. The player then complained because she thought that they had moved past all the deception and that Astarion *should* have approved of her choices. That is what I would call not being patient - and also rolling a nat 1 on insight.

It's just a shame you cannot say it back - but that's a general thing, there are very few options to appreciate your companions. Like, why isn't there a dialogue option at the end of "Save the artist" to ask him whether he'd like to have his portrait painted?


I think it also depends on personal experiences and predisposition. Cazador reminds me of my own father in many ways (not in the very horrible ones though - no need to fret) especially the goading at the beginning of the ritual-fight and how he valued control over trust and that he instilled a fear of the world in me. At one point I realised this world-view made me miserable. Sure there is nothing amiss with a bit of critical thinking but what helped me feel safer than any padlocks or security measures (having all the power so to speak), was the decision to not constantly be afraid anymore. Nothing really changed but my perception of the world and me in it, and that changed everything - the Graveyard scene captures that for me (and a few other things) while everything I have seen of Ascendent Astarion is just majorly anxiety inducing for me.

Wow, what horrible takes. One could counter argue this by saying 'if you loved him you'd allow him the freedom to make his own choices and help him out; even if you don't entirely agree you at least respect him to be the master of his own fate.' And he doesn't need anyone, he's not a stray little cat who requires a caretaker. If you kill Cazador without him he even acknowledges that he's aware that the power might have got to him. It's still a risk he was willing to take to be free.
I really don't like how the persuasion attempts are framed. To me they make Tav look manipulative. It's even more apparent when you talk to him after killing Cazador on your own and he asks you if you did it for him or if you were afraid of him getting that power. The honest option is saying you did it for him and the deception is saying the ritual had nothing to do with it. The rest is admitting you didn't want him to finish the ritual himself. Thus, you can only see the ritual as something that Astarion shouldn't gain access to or just prioritise killing Cazador over Astarion ascending.
It would have shown genuine concern if Tav was able to say: 'You don't need this power, you're strong and valuable the way you are now. You're already better than Cazador' or 'There are people who care about you and will support you if you need help. We can face any challenge together'. Or actually express fear: 'I worry what the ritual will do to you, that it might corrupt you. That there's some hidden catch. I cannot bear to lose you.'

I also have a problem with how the game is forcefully trying to pull at your heartstrings when you meet the trapped spawn. There are 7000 of them, yet the only ones who you talk to are children and a sweet young man so you'd feel sorry for them. When you tell Astarion that in another life you'd have been one of his victims, a fool who wanted to love him he actually says that many of his targets were petty criminals, street drunkards and brothel-goers. That people like Sebastian only happened from time to time. The majority of the spawn are actually questionable or even downright reprehensible individuals. They are in a much worse state than he'd ever was, completely ravenous, as he puts it. Why doesn't the game show us these people, only the innocent folk?
I'll also quote Nyloth's post from another thread that is also portraying the game as sketchy when it comes to the ascension:


We already know Astarion is manipulating Tav into helping him out, but I wish the game wouldn't do the same to make you go for the different outcome and stayed neutral.


I mean it as the Spawn is the 'good', more humane, sweeter, Wyll-like Astarion who changes for you and Ascendant the guy who is not ashamed of his darkness, embraces his vampiric nature, asks you to join him and takes you for a wild ride. The game simply handled it poorly when it comes to his dock scene. Then again we could make an argument that it shows that Astarion had been right all along - that being a hero is not worth it and no one really cares about him other than Tav. It's a shame the game doesn't allow the players to actually control Tav in that moment, which is rightfully criticised.

And they keep pushing - SH said earlier - "this is a bad idea" (about spawns freedom), but in patch 5 it's cut out

How do Paladin oaths react to the 7000 spawn anyway? Because killing them seems to be the lawful/good solution to me - and the Gur seem to agree.

I've played as a Tav Paladin. And I've also given Astarion a couple of levels of Paladin on one playthrough. There seems to be no reaction - you don't get made Oathbreaker with either route, and if its the Ascended route the Gur start the fight so killing them doesn't break your oath either

Thats the thing though. How many times in real life do relationships where one party tries to change another adult's entire world view actually work? They very seldom do. Astarion going through with the ritual is something that his entire character arc leads up to, he hasn't changed at all. Caring for you doesn't change his world view. I would hate for him to become a Wyll like, that to me is a horrible idea. Nor do I want a more humane and sweeter character. I'm not particularly evil in my playthroughs but neither am I 'sweet' . If I think of Astarion throughout the game, 'Sweet' is not anything that comes to mind either rofl, adorable sometimes yes but not Sweet (and when he is its usually him being manipulative).
I very much prefer him as a competent self assured and independent character who loves me and want to be with me in a relationship that is playful and fun rather than someone who needs me and clearly isn't independent. The game itself treats Spawn Astarion as in need of protection (horrible dialogue) good grief why would I want that for him?

That's why I will not go for the non-ascended route in my game. Because he's not portrayed as competent, confident and independent as I would also like to see him but more like a naive, lovestruck guy who drank Tav's hero koolaid and goes along with whatever Tav suggests and has to rely on their holy protection.

It just seems like they developed his ascension path first and then created the spawn one for people who might find Ascendant's behaviour too triggering, but lacked the care to make it respectful and coherent. I would like both paths to be equally attractive but sadly they're not for me.

It feels like such a perfect spot for it though, given the gravity of the situation. Odd.

(Edit because this was apparently a bug.)

My Dark Urge always gets a nervous eye twitch when the ascended Astarion speaks and I think about the Slayer or Powerword Kill. I just want to romance Astarion because he's just extremely funny... in his own way. But I can't. Still, I have problems with both the spawn and the ascended Astarion. For example, I don't want to start the romance because he's grateful to me because I won't let him bite the blood merchant. I don't want him to thank me for that. The other way is also difficult because I don't want him to feel bad.

Ascended Astarion is a grumpy boring vampire lord. Hey, I'm Bhaal's chosen one, I will never stop killing, let's burn the world together, but don't say, I'm your pet or I will sitting on your lap while you command Papa's armies. How long did you say eternity is?

I would like to tell him that he is not only a vampire lord, he is the FIRST and only ascended vampire lord, what surprises can that bring over time, positive or negative. What exactly did Mephistopheles write in the contract? Where are the hidden notes?

I think every decision I make will leave a bad taste and none of it will end well in any way.

Best of all, my Dark Urge stays alone and does Dark Urge things. *thinks about 7000 souls in 200 years... surely that could be faster. When should I deliver?* ; )

The contract states you get power in exchange for a specific number of souls. The hidden note is that anyone can take Cazador's place, which is a loophole that Astarion exploits. He was a magistrate so he knows how to read documents and find hidden catches in agreements.

Yes, Astarion is very clever but he couldn't read infernal. In my case Raphael had to tell him what was in the contract and I'm not sure if Raphael told him everything. Mephitopheles is his father even if he is angry about the crown of Karsus.

Anyway, I hope that there will be more possible for Astarion.

Raphael telling him about the agreement with Mephistopheles is the first clue he gets. Once he knows the name of the ritual he can figure out more while reading the Necromancy of Thay and there's a scroll with various rituals that Cazador put in Vellioth skull's mouth. If he doesn't come across any of that information it's a plothole that he knows which words to use during the ritual.

Yes, it's a deep and human take on the story. I also used to not want Astarion to lose the light and life that was in him and turn from a charming, impulsive and sensitive person into some kind of "powerful villain". I dreamed of "healing" him and giving him back what was taken from him. It turns out that the game actually "silences" this humanistic perception within the player by how cruel the world treats Astarion if he is not ascended. For Gale, the situation is thankfully much better, he can give up the Crown and move on happily ever after. I realize that after this "Astarion = Spawn" story, I've become more paranoid about the game world, with a "safety first", "enemies everywhere", "strength comes first, otherwise you can't protect yourself and (much more importantly) the person you care about" attitude. That's why I'm now trying to "stuff power" into my companion friends as well. I'll have to rethink that.



I had that dryad scene in my game, and I honestly didn't like it. I absolutely didn't want to pull Astarion's main pain and fear out into the open in front of some unfamiliar character. That's exactly what Astarion himself disapproves of, which now makes me regret that I fell for the dryad's opinion at the time and overplayed the scene. When you choose the line "Astarion fears no one. Everyone is afraid of him," Astarion is happy about it, he approves of it, he understands that you know how it is, but you support him. Dryad, on the other hand, puts a lower rating on your feelings, which confused me and made me end up responding with "the way things are", thinking that it must be important and necessary for something. I would never do that in reality though. Astarion recognizes that you "know him better than he thought", yet he's clearly uncomfortable with it (and the -4 endorsements are a testament to that). He's being discussed, he's being "moralized", and now I see this scene as an example of disrespectful, not tactful, and not cherishing a loved one.



One might ask, is it something specific that is troubling or his behavior in general? He still looks with love, smiles, and occasionally shows good feelings as before. For example, Astarion approves when you speak harshly to Ethel and demand the child back, and approves again when you rescue the child. You can look at the expression Astarion looks at Hope with (when she tells stories of her torment in Raphael's captivity), and several other things show that Astarion does not turn into some kind of evil after the Ascension, but is still Astarion.

Yes, manipulate to make Astarion more "comfortable" for Tav and those around him. I myself never wanted to "fix" him or prevent him from "gaining power" (love and "fixing" are, in my opinion, completely different things and don't go together). I "fell for" this very thing:


The game does indeed do that. There are also some lines for Tav (before the ritual) that show her fear of Astarion. For example, after interrogating Peter ("I fear you more than the Elder Brain") and some others. I found it funny to read that, I thought maybe someone likes to play the coward, it happens, unusual experience too, I guess... You can "run away in fear" from the Emperor, after all. And those lines fit just fine with the scenario where Tav manipulates Astarion just to keep him from accessing the ritual. At least thanks to the diary, which gives the player a chance to stop in time and think about whether what you've just done is right. The diary writes a specific sentence in the case of refusing the ritual, and in the case of the Ascension, everything is fine, Astarion is grateful for the help.

I was heartbroken for the sweet and "kind" Astarion, it's like he just has nothing left in his life but you, you are the last thing he clings to. I know that "sweet Astarion" can be dragged into a disgusting and nasty "threesome" with Halsin, as well as going to a brothel with him. I don't even want to watch it on youtube, but I'm pretty sure he's raping himself with it and he's going to feel bad about it. Of course, it's silly to worry about something that will never happen in your game, but... I wondered, "If these (let's not say bad words) Tav Astarion are so broken that they let them do this to himself, who's to say that I don't have a similarly broken Astarion, I just don't see it?". I wish Astarion wouldn't change for someone else, I wish he would be himself, openly express himself and be free. And... There's an inherent pleasure in "pampering" the Ascended Astarion, to give him whatever he wants, even if it's a little hint like, "I'd like to see her corpse in the gutter... (about Oblodra)." It's kind of in opposition to all the ideas of "fixing" and abusing Astarion's character.

Yes, and in real life, if you love someone, you love them for who they are, you like their whole character and even those traits that other people may not like. You may wish that he would be happier and enjoy life more, but not that he would "become a different person". The same mechanisms for emotions to arise and manifest are at work in the game, which is why those players who love Astarion are so bad at the idea of "fixing" him. Of course, it's impossible to want to see a loved one as dependent and in need of protection. It turns out that for such players there is only one single option left - Ascension and no other path is simply not provided.

As opposed to the path of Ascension, there could be a path of Healing (as I see it). If Astarion could be completely healed of his vampirism and gradually regain the self he was before he was captured by Kasador, overcoming his traumas and gradually learning to trust the world again (to a greater or lesser degree) with Tav's help. If he was independent while doing so, he wouldn't try to "fix himself" but would simply start smiling more and more often, joking, having fun for real, rather than using a smile as a mask. He could start treating those around him better because he feels like it now (and when he feels like it, not by adjusting to Tav). And, most importantly, would have accepted and loved himself. This would be a great option for Astarion's "good" path, maybe too "good and sweet" for a "harsh and dramatic" game, I don't know, but then you could "walk the good path" the whole game with pleasure, and stay in a wonderful and "warm" emotional feeling from it.

This is the good path in the game, especially the non-romanced, non-ascended path.

The only thing, which doesn't happen is curing his vampirism, but it's mentioned in the epilogue that he accepts it as a part of himself.

I myself had a hard time accepting some aspects of Ascended Astarion's behavior at first (really don't see where he's "grumpy and boring", honestly). And it was frustrating to the point that I think it was quite appropriate to add the line "Sob" for Tav, after the famous "On your knees, dear" :)) After all, that's what I successfully did in real life, after the first time I got into that scene :))

But try to take a deeper look at the situation. Remember what Astarion himself had endured over two hundred years of torture, humiliation, and "pure shit," as he put it. What was required of Tav now was nothing compared to that. After all, what's more important, pride (or someones own idea of pride) or the happiness of the person you love? I'm sure that if Keterik Torm could have gotten his beloved back through even worse and more horrible humiliation than what Tav has to endure in this scene, he would have done it without hesitation. And it wouldn't have stopped him from being Keterik Torm. Tav, too, by "submitting to Astarion" ( just to make him feel more comfortable) loses nothing in "coolness". And to understand what's at stake, you can imagine another way - Astarion= Spawn, I won't write about what's on this way, so as not to repeat what has already been said many times.

Perhaps I, as a player who chose the "evil path" solely for Astarion's sake will have a slightly different feel for the game than you, since you chose this path for the sake of the path itself, to be Baal's Chosen One and enjoy it. But, if you love Astarion, try to understand him, feel for him, put yourself in his shoes, maybe you yourself will want to give him something that will calm him down, allow him to trust you and make him at least a little happier. If that's not acceptable in any way, then maybe it's best to remain just friends with him, but still help him ascended? Especially if you are on the "evil path" yourself, it would be unfair not to give Astarion the opportunity to become powerful, free, and independent as well.

Ahh, without romance I refuse... :)) Though I think it's even worse without romance there - Astarion just burns and runs away, and there's no one who cares about him in any way.

What I wrote is just a "fantasy on a theme" of how good it would be if it were :))

Without a cure for vampirism, in my opinion, it makes no sense at all and leads to the mockery of Astarion that we see in the game.

I haven't played his good path in a while, but much of his story hinges on contextualizing him outside of his vampirism. It comes up in his drow blood merchant scene but is most obvious in a non-romanced spawn ending. He says something along the lines of "accepting himself with his vampirism" in the epilogue.