Larian Studios Forums Baldur's Gate III Baldur's Gate III - Story & Character Discussion The romance with Astarion pulls you over to the "dark side".

When you absorb the new tadpole or keep it in your backpack and refuse to share with Astarion.

https://www.youtube.com/shorts/6WK67aMrusw


It seems like he loses some of his sense of humour and becomes more melancholic. I mean, I still love him no matter what happens to him, but I simply feel sad when I watch vids with non-ascended Astarion. He sounds mournful, misses that mischievous look in his eyes, looks rather depressed. At least he gets a bit better in the new epilogue.

This video makes interesting comparisons between him in act 2 and 3, where you can clearly see how he's more reserved and less joyful.




His comments are very insightful and funny. I kept him in my party the whole game because I enjoyed them so much.

I take the "nothing special of course" as playful teasing, and I like it. I also really enjoy the morning conversation after the graveyard visit. It's a good, serious conversation about power, freedom and the responsibility it brings. (And it makes me pretty sure, that going to the Underdark to babysit all the spawn is something he'd do out of a sense of obligation, not because he is eager to go there.) For me it coincided with Mystra's audience, which made it a perfect conversation for both characters.

Yeah, that's interesting to see. I don't seem to have pissed off Astarion once in my game. Except for the first hit in the "kneeling scene", when I chose "no", desperately hoping that it wasn't the end, and there would be some more lines, it would be possible to somehow explain something, agree and "avoid humiliation" when turning into a vampire. Now I think that for Astarion it was something ritual, sacred, like "accepting the gift of eternity". I see that when you do something "not Astarion's way", not what he wants, he has very interesting reactions.


Good video, conveys the difference in Astarion's behavior even more obviously. I'll keep it as a keepsake until I finally buy a recording program and can record "my" Astarion... I miss sometimes the "old" lines like "pointy ears" and "Can we? I suppose we can" and others And, of course, the "languid look" from the first chapter
Yeah, I felt the same way you did when I played with the unascended Astarion. You realize that everything is wrong, the feeling of powerlessness, impossibility to do anything... "I love you" in the cemetery with that smile, of course, takes a lot of heart, but even in that smile there is still sadness.


Yeah, I never went anywhere without him. Like Astarion said in Baldur's sewers, "Wherever you've dragged me," something like that I'll have to look up the lines he says when you leave him at the camp, because now I realize I missed that too.

I liked the phrase "nothing special, of course" at first, it sounded kind of touching and sweet, but... There is a sense of uncertainty, and the cough at the end is unsure, as if he doubts whether he said it right, whether he should have said it. It's as if he's starting to "watch his words", and I want Astarion to be natural, to be himself, to say whatever comes into his head without hesitation, not to restrain himself in any way....

At first I also liked the morning conversation very much, I was genuinely happy at that moment, I thought that everything was good and right. For me it was the last moment in the "sweet pink fairy tale", then I read the diary, I was horrified by what was written in it, I compared it with the phrase "Perhaps this is the price of freedom - never to see the sun", my hands got cold, and I decided to try to help ascended to see what would happen, I was shocked there at first too, in general everything is fun.

I don't want Astarion to do anything out of a sense of duty, especially such a hard fate for him. Yes, and there's a certain tragedy in the character of the Ascended - Astarion might lose the light that was in him. But damn it, I hate the idea of "the world has slapped you on one cheek - turn the other", and when it comes to the self-sacrifice of a loved one, it's pure hatred. Better to "turn around and punch them in the jaw yourself".

He was never fond of sincere public displays of affection. When he wants to talk about his feelings, he usually takes the player character aside, while the things he does in public are at least slightly performative. (His new kiss for example is incredibly performative. I always employ it after fights, when everyone is covered in blood.) The "you are only the first person I truly care about" is probably a little bit more sincere than he is strictly comfortable with in public so he drabs it in irony and still needs that little cough at the end - as if he had just said something indecent.

And for me the morning conversation (I was referring to the one after the graveyard, not the one after the brain) wasn't sweet at all, it was sincere. He isn't "happy" but he feels that he made the right decision, that is neither surprising nor sad for me. It's expected. He gets to / has to decide who he wants to be after all. That is serious business. He is allowed to be serious, sincere and none-performative for a bit. Depending on what you choose during the Post-Brain-Dialogue, he is already more confident then. During the six month until the epilogue and he has time to find himself and he is more honestly happy then.

Otoh, Ascended Astarion knows who he is, he is the person who Cazador made him to be. Everything he is, he is because of Cazador, because of Velioth and the whole line before them. Killing their former master and taking over from them seems to be how vampire-inheritance works. There is no room or necessity for doubt but there is no freedom in it either. It's bowing one's head to fate, submitting to destiny. For me, that is sad.

You could say Ascended Astarion really isn't a "new kind of vampire" he just is an especially strong kind of vampire. Spawn Astarion, though, is a new kind of vampire because he resisted the call of ultimate power and taking over his inheritance - which, from what Astarion tells us in Act 1, is unheard of for a vampire.

It probably depends on where you place your priorities on the axis of freedom vs security and destiny vs self determination.

As for the Underdark: He already got everyone out, I think the other spawn can take care of the rest. But it does explain why the Underdark ending has a much more somber and dark mood than all of his other epilogues for Spawn-Astarion. He even sits around the fire worrying if the other spawn are alright. Heavy is the head that wears the crown, I guess. He is a ruler in that ending, but a responsible one, who cares and endlessly worries about his subjects.

This!

No matter which route you choose, Astarion changes in both routes. Astarion is manipulative, seductive, selfish, bloodthirsty, powerhungry, sarcastic (special sense of humour) and has narcissistic, even cruel and sadistic traits in Acts 1 and 2 and in the main plot partially until Act 3. Also he is a notorious liar. Everyone who romances him (in Act 1) has come to know and love this narcissistic impostor for who he is, or apparently not?

Because most people suddenly hate Astarion for being evil when he ascends (did they forget that he always was evil?) or some people say Astarion "suddenly" becomes as manipulativ, sarcastic and narcissistic as he was when they started the Romance in act 1. Eh, yes? That's Astarion. That’s exactly who I liked. That's exactly why I started a romance with him and not with the nicer guys like Wyll.

Astarion was always evil. And I would not want him to lose this dark side, his sarcastic, playful character just to become this more serious, regretful, insecure boy that suddenly I have to protect. His divine sarcasm, his extroversion, his dominant narcissism - all gone in the (romance) scenes when you choose the good route. For me, that’s like a cheap novel happy end. Only the dock scene brings some dramatic in all of this, because now, not Astarion is mocking and saying sarcastic things about other people (like he always did before), but the others are mocking him, like poetic justice! (No, I don’t like this scene! But maybe that’s the reason why the scene was written like this)

The evil route is much better written and more in line with the Astarion I've come to know and love. It also gives him the power he always wanted to have. (He even says: "Of course I envy him, why wouldn't I? The problem Cazador did is, that he did it to me." - What a dark side it reveals!) Yes, I agree, he pulls you to the dark side.

Why do so many people feel awkward when they are asked to kneel before Astarion? Quite the opposite! Yes sir, please. He is great to be so dominant! THANK YOU LARIAN for his divine romance scene.

Yeah, awesome! I have a funny thing going on though - my Tav is a warrior-champion, and she has a constitution like Carlach (I liked that the game has the option to make a female warrior look like someone who can wear heavy armor), the developers made a height difference between the different body types - and Astarion suddenly "became" small in height when kissing. It's adorable, especially after he calls you "my little love" himself.


I'll have to watch that epilogue, maybe at least something good, unlike that scene at the docks... If it was possible to convince Astarion during the ritual to just stop, take a breath, cool down a bit and calmly, consciously make a decision, promising that you will support any choice he makes (Cazador is not going anywhere, a boot on his throat and that's it, he'll wait a bit), and he would make a decision on his own, completely on his own, without "pressure on his conscience" from Tav, moving away from the thirst for power and security that seized him - then it would be possible to understand exactly what he wants to be in the end. As it is - Tav still influences his decision, one way or another.For me, the "main quest" of the whole game was to make Astarion happy. It doesn't matter how he communicates with me, with others - what matters is how he feels inside.It's hard, you can't "get inside Astarion's head" and see if he's okay. Ascension gives him safety and strength, and it frees me from the desire to "kill everyone around me" because of him, I can't bear the "scene at the docks" just physically, nor can I bear that he won't be able to enjoy life and sunshine. I felt much "angrier" inside of me when I was walking around with an unascended Astarion, I really hated the world around me, I wanted to make it bad for all of them, not just Astarion. And now I've calmed down, I'm enjoying walks around sunny Baldur with the Ascended, I'm doing mostly good deeds, with some minor exceptions, but now I really want to save this city instead of "let it all burn with fire".Yes, it all depends on priorities....


I can't agree, the Ascension Astarion defeated fate (fate was preparing a much worse outcome for him), he destroyed Cazador, snatched the Ascension from him, and everything Astarion has, he got thanks to his own power, and not thanks to Cazador and Veliot. Cazador became an "ingredient", a worm that Astarion didn't just crush, but also used. It's only in the Ascension scene that Cazador gets what he deserves! I love the moment when Astarion slices the scars on him, I love the way Cazador yells at the ritual, I wonder what he was thinking at the last moment of his vile life?And just stabbing the bastard and Astarion crying afterwards... Besides, Astarion will never be like Kasador and Veliot, he won't torture someone and torment them the way they did. Don't take his words about grabbing everything literally, he enjoys power, he's not used to it yet (he likes to "show off" too). He will get used to it and calm down in time, besides, I think that Ascended Astarion together with Tav, who sincerely loves him and cares about him, will feel better and may be a little less aggressive than "lonely" Ascended Astarion.

Absolutely right, just the way he is! True, I saw different sides to him, I wondered sometimes what he was like, whether he was as you describe him here, or whether he was a "wounded charming elf", that he was just embittered (and, hell, who in his place wouldn't be embittered?). Then I decided that all of this actually fit together nicely, Astarion's personality is multifaceted, he can't just be crammed into the narrow confines of an alignment.


I can't imagine what it's like to "hate Astarion". Surprised at first - yes, maybe even a bit shocked, but temporarily, it just took time to analyze and understand everything. He showed me his "tender side" in the second act, and I wanted things to be the same at first, but I certainly wouldn't want him to "become like Will" or like anyone else, to be regretful and sad. I adore Astarion's sarcasm, playfulness, narcissism, I just admire him when he expresses himself like that And the scene at the docks, I guess I'm grateful just for the fact that it made me want to kneel before Astarion. As long as my Tav is alive and able to hold a sword in her hand, I will never, ever allow that scene in my walkthrough. And I wanted to kneel because of the great motivation of "spite", for me it was a kind of "F...k the world", if they thought to break me with this nonsense, to make me let Astarion down because of stupid pride, they are obviously wrong.


I agree, the Ascend is better scripted, he has more lines, he has gorgeous animations. Perhaps this is his "canon" way.


Well, it depends on the character of the person... It was just a real challenge for me, I hate submitting, maybe I'm too vulnerable and resentful myself. Another feeling of "injustice", I always respected Astarion, did everything for him that was possible to do within the story, and supplemented through gameplay (rings that allow you to take his damage, statue, better items, gold at least twice as much as Tav, collection of rare gems, etc.) I was always ready to fight anyone who dares to insult him. And it all creates a sense of deep injustice when you get into this scene with the first time. But when I did it willingly, consciously, with an understanding of what it was for and why it was necessary, it made me wiser, taught me to look deeper than my own selfishness had previously allowed me and to understand and feel Astarion better. So I too can say, "Thank you, Larian!" for forcing me to work on myself and realize a lot of things. After all, there is no personal growth without overcoming oneself.

I think this dialogue is lacking. The dialogue 'No'. 'Yes'. 'No'. "Ok, bye then!" just sounds like it was put there for a questionable comedic value, because it's certainly not a conversation two adults would have. There should definitely be a follow-up and a way to ask him what his deal is, at least to stall it a bit. It can be easy to miss the most obvious cues that he's fantasising about dominating Tav - his reaction to Tav getting beaten by the priest of Loviathar, and him hinting he enjoyed tying up Durge. There are also these lines that for some reason don't trigger in the game - 'maybe they like being restrained?' and 'you look good helpless', which you can hear in this video:



A drow female would certainly protest here, my Tav did at first and I expected to hear him get more manipulative and threatening (saying something like 'I thought you wanted to be mine. I need to see just how devoted to me you truly are. You are loyal to me, aren't you? Then you'll do it for me and accept my gift with due respect.') and gloat about making this kind of Tav submitting to him, calling her a "good girl" or something (since he calls you a "bad girl" if you try to read his thoughts and fail).

I'll quote myself from his romance improvements thread: "I think there are multiple reasons [why he wants Tav to kneel]. He's still so high on the power from the ritual that he's doing it for his own pleasure to fulfill his domination kink. Also as a way to test the water to see if Tav would be obedient and to set the mood for the relationship going forward. Moreover, since he's making it clear that he wants to be the dominant one, it seems to be his way to bring Tav down to his level and a display of full acceptance of him. He still sees them as a better person than he is (the insight check about degradation, which actually talks about continuing the relationship with him). When he admits he wants what's best for Tav too he's clearly lying, because he believes that for them it is to be with another - someone nicer and not a monster like him, who'd manipulated them from the start and possibly even groomed them to join the dark side. If he's to be Tav's lord, they cannot be better than him, equal at best. Thus, it's a small act that actually has a lot of meaning to him, and if Tav doesn't humour him, then they reject the whole premise of their relationship as two vampires."

When he ascends he becomes an aristocrat once more, an actual Vampire King and you could also read Tav kneeling as a form of private coronation.


OBS is a free and easy tool to use for recording.


That line made me laugh so much, haha. Poor Princess Astarion getting dirty.


He still doesn't sound as playful as he normally does. The cough is very awkward, and he indeed seems to watch his words much more closely than Ascendant. AA in turn becomes explicitly blunt, there are no filters anymore. When I watched the vid the first time the exchange sounded to me like he was some bored husband after years of monotonous relationship. Compare it Ascendant who's gushing over Tav, giving them reassurances and acting like a doting husband. Then he also does that playful sway when he says 'yes, my treasure?'. He really looks like he's enjoying himself.

Exactly! I really didn't understand what was going on. The mind-reading doesn't do anything but make you "baffled by what's going on" even more. How can Astarion think that Tav is humiliating herself by staying with him when he was (and still is) the best, most wonderful person to her? How can he think that she enjoys humiliating herself? For a drow, this is especially so, of course. My Tav, though she was an ordinary human (albeit of "nobleman" descent, which is not conducive to being able to humiliate herself either), has always shown courage and strength (most of Astarion's approvals have come from treating him directly, and approving of actions that show strength of character without committing particularly evil acts).


Now that's just more correct and in keeping with Astarion's character, and sounds much better than what's in the game.


Oh, yeah, Astarion got my Tav up to it, too. "And no arguments!" You agree, and then you realize what you've just gotten yourself into It's true, you can get this scene through intimidation very nicely. Tav had a hard day in general - right after the first night, Astarion first calls Shadowheart a "flower" in a mini-dialogue on the map, then offers Tav to kiss the foot of a dirty goblin, then - admires with a stone face the work of the priest of Loviatar. And in the camp, when you really want to talk about it, touchingly says "I've missed you...". Probably the most memorable beginning of the romance.


Yes, that explains Astarion's behavior in this scene perfectly. I really wish Tav could convey her true feelings to Astarion in doing so. Ok, submit, but like, open her mind to him in doing so, so that he could see and feel how much he means to Tav, that she would never want to be with anyone else, that she doesn't see him as a "monster", that she doesn't love him "just for his appearance", and that she would never humiliate herself in front of anyone else, not for any power, not because of any threat, that she does it only for him and for him alone.


Thank you!


Yeah, I just want to take him in my arms so he doesn't wet his boots in this puddle


One of my favorite lines

Precisely! Some folks just seem to forget that he's a vampire - manipulation and seduction are his forte and he will present himself in a better light to make Tav want to help him. These people just turn a blind eye to many of his lines and approvals and even blame it all on his trauma. Of course, the trauma is a very important factor, but his actual core has been morally questionable from the beginning. Although they almost completely erased his mortal past, there are still hints that he was a harsh magistrate (corrupt too according to the artbook) and not the friendliest person already back then. It's also worth mentioning that none of his siblings seemed to like him, and especially the males had very strong, negative opinions about him. Even though we side with Astarion and sympathise with him, it's worth listening to the words of the people who'd known him for much longer than Tav did. His darkness is what drew me to him, and I also really don't want him to lose his humour, sarcasm and impish nature.


In my opinion he always wanted it and whatever was going on in Cazador's palace didn't change that. From the moment he hears about the ritual, he starts getting ideas to snatch it from Cazador. The fact the game forces you to persuade him to change his mind (and the roll is rather high too) is a gameplay mechanic that already shows that it was his actual decision. He consistently desires to achieve a specific outcome, no matter what choices you make in the game. It's also very eye-opening that if you kill Cazador without him, the first thing he complains about is not you killing his archenemy on your own, but you robbing him of the opportunity to become something more than just a spawn. He also blames you for sentencing him to an eternity in darkness and the conversation mostly revolves around the ritual. Him mentioning wanting to kill Cazador is clearly seen as a secondary priority to him.


To me there were two possible fates - either Cazador or Astarion becoming the Ascendant and the whole fight was about who would succeed in the end. Astarion rejecting the ritual is more of a curveball. And I partly disagree with Cazador making him the person he is. He had big influence over him, but ultimately Astarion still kept his mind independent, even though his body was not his. As previously mentioned, his problem was that Cazador did it to him. And he fought him till the very end, even if he physically stopped struggling at some point, he never stopped dreaming of his revenge and fulfilling his desires of gaining power. In a way, being Cazador's slave was a 'long-lasting and painful setback' and when Astarion ascends he discards his past as something that served its purpose, sees it as something that made him stronger and led to him becoming more, like he always wanted. He is purely pragmatic about it.

Basicly, it's a fight between two guys who are playing the long game and want to destroy each other and enact their plans. They are both tools and obstacles in each other's schemes.
I just can't shake off the feeling that Astarion and Cazador already had a past that involved some type of rivalry before they became "a family" and it's a story that's begging to be told. Astarion sounds cagey and dismissive when he talks about his magistrate past. Cazador made particular effort to try to break him, enjoyed torturing him the most, wrote a lot about him in his journal - the man was evidently obsessed. I'm sure Cazador also saw similarities between them and it was driving him nuts - he'd never admit it but instinctively he must have felt threatened by him despite having all that power over him.

The revenge on Cazador was immensely satisfying for both Astarion and me as well. The way it played out was also interesting and gruesomely intimate, because Tav and Astarion are literally in each other's heads and can see and feel everything the other does. It's not only him, but also Tav slicing Cazador up. His 'There... Perfect!' just sounds so damn awesome when he proudly admires his handiwork. You can feel his deep gratification. I thought it was all brilliantly dark and cathartic. I applauded Astarion for quick thinking and coming up with such a devious plan. I wish Astarion would also make him beg for his life, like he can in his origin. I agree, although he shares some similarities with Cazador, he is not like him and with Tav by his side he will be more balanced. He already calms down by the end of the game.

On the whole Inheritance thing: Velioth's scroll made me think that Cazador probably was the "black sheep" in Velioth's family, the one unruly spawn that was not easily dominated but tried to grasp for power himself. So Cazador got the special treatment from Velioth, which maybe in a sick twisted way can be called "tough love". The rules of vampiric existence (Always dominate. Power comes from solitude. Do not act in haste.) are considered valuable lessons for the vampires, so driving them home would make the spawn stronger - either a stronger slave or a worthy heir, should they eventually best you. Velioth seems to have taken his eventual defeat with grace. He seemed proud of Cazador to me.

Cazador and Astarion's relationship seems to have been similar. Astarion seems to only one defying his master, while the other spawn are either daddy-boys like Petras or have their own agendas like Leon or Dal who is looking to cure herself. Act 1 shows that no matter how much Astarion hates Cazador, he does approve of the rule one and two and tries to enact them. The third rule is the one he has problems with, it's also the one that Cazador goads him with at the start of the ritual, where Cazador tries to make him careless. But despite his temper, Astarion has learned that lesson too, he after all does research the ritual in detail and while threatening the spawn in the flophouse, he doesn't actually burn Petras. Early-Game and Ascended Astarion is of course himself but he is very much Cazador's heir in his morals and everything else that he inherits from him - the ritual, the palace, the lifestyle and of course the rules.

If Astarion always wanted that? I don't know, he doesn't seem to remember much of his mortal life and the only thing we can gleam from his early vampiric life is, that he had a soft spot for the sweet ones. But that can mean a lot of things. It might have simply been nice to be with someone none-threatening for a change. On the whole it doesn't really matter, because at the start of the game he has learned his lessons well. But this also means he didn't have much of a choice up until this point, it's basically all he knows.


On the bored spawn-husband. That made me laugh, btw. My impression is, that he treats you like he treats everybody else. Which I really like. As I have written above, Astarion does not seem to like talking about feelings in public. Whenever he wants to talk about feelings, he takes you aside. All other conversations are treated as public or semi-public by the game. After his confession in act 2, he is basically convinced that you will sooner or later dump him because he has not much going on for him besides a whole lot of issues. So he is at least trying to give you the full romance treatment in your conversations as an incentive to stick around.

During the graveyard scene he tells you that he feels seen by you, in other words you understand him. As a consequence he can now stop being a well trained love-monkey around you and just treat you in a more relaxed manner. He now knows you care for him and not just for his flamboyant, charming persona. He is also telling you the more uncomfortable things, like that he is not sure if the two of you did the right thing releasing all the spawn, that he isn't exactly "happy" with how things turned out but that he thinks, he made the right choice. It's good communication. The only thing I do dislike about that dialogue is, that you cannot thank him for the impact he made on your life in return. This might be difficult for a normal Tav but Origins (including Durges) would have reason to thank him for his support during their quests. - I can tell Mystra that Astarion is the reason Gale is still around, but I cannot tell Astarion. ;_;

In any case, I also especially like this slightly more aloof tone he takes with you post non-ascension because it fits the overall bossy tone he has with Gale very well. XD (No, Astarion definitely isn't a damsel in that relationship.) In general he feels more natural after non-ascension to me, since being cagey about his feelings is what is natural to him.

With Ascended Astarion all the highly romantic lines and flourishes about eternal life and being a power couple are performative, they are (to my understanding) intended to spin Tav along by telling them what they want to hear (all those nice words), but also to present an image to the world, one in which you are a power-couple but in which he also is your generous masters. A demonstration of strength, if you will. During the last night alive he reverts back to his I-need-a-cough-drop voice and his preferred manipulation rhetoric "this is what you want, isn't it". Should you try to break up with him after the tadpoles are removed, he tells you how things are, you are lucky to be is special spawn, who is allowed to be at his side while he rules. He now embodies the rules of vampiric existence without regret and finalised his plan from act 1 to make sure Tav never turns from him. If Tav never rebels, Tav will never know. If the collar fits, it doesn't shave. It's a great dark ending - just a bit too real for me to enjoy as a fictional romance.

Yes, his personality is very multifaceted. He is very emotional and charming (that’s why we all like him), but also narcissistic and cruel and it cannot be blamed all on a trauma, how Ametris also figured out. Most people who get hurt by others do not feel a pleasure in hurting other innocent people or humiliate them afterwards. But Astarion e.g. approves and enjoys torturing both humans and animals. And that’s correct, the siblings don’t seem to like him either, wether they call him „weak“ or being „alwas selfish“. He is indeed most time very self-centered. (Even in the tender act 2 hug-scene, it depends on the options, but he is always talking about himself. When you ask him, why he slept with you, he says things like, „I needed protection“, and „seducing you was easy, frankly“, „you were a complication I didn’t see coming“ – really mean words, in my opinion, for my innocent good Tav, yet Astarion didn’t even say a word of „sorry“ to Tav. Imagine someone would tell you, he just slept with you out of purpose, to get a benefit from it, and there is not one word of regret. Astarion is still here self-centered. I really missed an option to tell Astarion: „Oh wow, wait! What you just said - hurt ME!“)


Yes I can understand this. It is hard to see (in both pathes) that Astarion changes and is not the very same like before. For me, none of the route is perfect. In the Ascension he acts a bit creepy first. We just need to decide, which one is better for our own taste. In the good route I feel his sadness and regrets all the time and it hurts to see him not only being a poor guy, but also losing all his playful and sarcastic character traits, which I liked on him since act 1. He is so funny being sarcastic. And about Ascension, I think Ametris had good words for it, how it feels, when he ascends: „The revenge on Cazador was immensely satisfying for both Astarion and me as well“ - I agree!


Thank you very much for describing me your feelings about it. It’s very interesting to see another perspective! Ametris had a good explaining answer on it and tells us, why Astarion could demand this. I had the feeling from act 1, that he is into such things and I was hoping and waiting for such a scene. This game has so many different romance scenes for different types of tastes. And this is, in my eyes, also a scene for people with some special taste. As Ametris said, Astarion has a domination kink (In the goblin camp he likes Tav to be tortured by Abdirak and to be humiliated with kissing the goblin‘s feet). So, I myself, always saw Astarion as a dominant romance Partner. „On your knees“ and the insight check „He will always see you as degrading yourself if you continue to be with him. But perhaps you WISH to DEGRADE YOURSELF. And he KNOWS it.“ Gave me chills (in a positive way). People with special interests will not question his behaviour or the insight check. For us, there is nothing odd about it. It is really interesting how many interpretations of this insight check exists. I am lucky to just say: The storyteller is right!

Ametris, what else can I say? You said all the good stuff, I could agree on everything. My English is not good enough for a great conversation! I just want to add…


Yes, I think so too. Equating Astarion with Cazador (<-- I often read this in different comments) doesn't do him justice. Not only is it the meanest thing someone could say about Astarion, because Cazador tormented and tortured him for 200 years, but also Cazador is lacking complex emotions (like sadness or empathy) as if he were some kind of a non-charming psychopath-dictator. I will not say any reallife names! Astarion, whether he ascends or not, is (still) having them. He can feel sadness and some kind of empathy with others (he never was that good in feeling Empathy with others). In the main plot, both Astarions almost behave the same. Compared to how he behaved and approved in act 1/2 – where he had already evil traits - he doesn’t become worse, mostly prouder. I must say, I really expected and hoped him to become a bit more evil toward others, but „unfortunately“ or not, he is still very soft for being a Vampire Lord - hahaha. Well it’s okay. I love Astarion and Tav being in their Vampire-marriage-spawn-consort-slave-whatever relationship, they are deeply bond forever.

And just a word to Anska:

You have some good arguments. I could agree in that, he wanted power and he got the power. It’s a great dark fantasy ending for at least some people. It’s very funny, my Tav is wearing the collar since act 1. Yes, it fits perfectly.

I also had the feeling Vellioth was proud of him. Not with Cazador though. He looked genuinely horrified and shocked that he got outplayed by Astarion.


With domination I agree, though the example in the game given in Cazador's case doesn't hold water when it comes to Astarion, because he has no problems letting Tav see their friends. The second rule is not something he enjoys and wants, he complains about having been alone and no one caring about him. He also sounds sad in the epilogue when he mentions being lonely and missing friend Tav, as well as Tav who broke up with him. The rule also states 'to share with others is to be weak' and he does share everything with Tav (the palace and the power, they make decisions together). When Cazador rebelled against Vellioth he punished him very severely. All Astarion does when Tav challenges him is laugh in their face, complain about their lack of gratitude, throw in some spiteful remarks and promise them all sorts of pleasantries so they stop whining. Rule number three is something he often fails at and seems to like doing anyways - he loves chaos too much. He doesn't burn Petras, because he's not really out for his blood, only Cazador's, and he knows he needs him alive for the ritual. He likes casual murder but he also knows when to be smart about it. A good example of it is when he scolds Durge if they kill Isobel, and tells them they could have used her for leverage. There is another rule that he breaks (with spawn Tav too) with great pleasure, which is being forbidden from drinking from thinking creatures.


I don't believe him when he says he doesn't remember it. He dismisses it as ancient history and says years of torment made him forget, which sounds like an excuse. It's in his interest to present himself in such a way that Tav would feel compassion for him and to do that he'd omit some naughty stuff about himself. If I recall correctly, Dalyria remembered her mortal life very well and wrote about it in her journal.


Glad you had fun reading it. That was one of the first videos I saw of his spawn path and the difference in his behaviour was very striking after finishing the ascended path in my game. I can understand him not acting so seductive anymore and being more relaxed, but him losing his spark and humour is lamentable to me. Yes, he doesn't like talking about his real feelings, no matter who he ends up as.


That sucks! I guess all the resources went into tailoring Karlach's origin to his romance.


I agree about the performative aspect, but I also view it as a way for him to playfully express his feelings instead of being all serious, which he feels awkward about doing. Very deep down he's a bit of a romantic. In my game he opened Ketheric's chest and read the Chosen wife's letter to him and he was moved by it. It seems like he'd been entertaining the together forever idea for some time. I've already mentioned some examples earlier but I forgot about another good one - when the spawn try to bring him to Cazador it sounds like he has a slip of the tongue when he says he's doing it for you both to make sure you're safe "forever". Then he uses the more appropriate term "for good". I think he's waiting with his proposition to turn Tav and doesn't even ask hypothetical questions if they'd like that so as to not spook them before the ritual. He's likely also scared of rejection.

I concur that it's a great dark ending. There are hints that he'd planned things for Tav early in the game and he'd do whatever it takes to not lose them. Even if Tav rebels, he's still smothering them with love, because he has this fantasy life idea in his head, which is appropriate for a vampire romance. Frankly, his romance is never particularly healthy, doesn't matter which path, and he even admits himself that these relationships are not his strong point. But it's certainly succulent!

You also made good observations! Don't be shy.


In his origin Petras even calls him a piece of shit and the worst of them all.


My Tav wasn't hurt, because at first she was also using him to have someone on her side. Drow are very mistrustful and disliked after all and she was worried about getting backstabbed. Plus he was an elf too so they had a connection because of it. The joke was on them both.


If Shadowheart is present he also admits he was hoping Tav was into kinky stuff. But then when he has banter with Lae'zel he says not to group him up with the likes of Tav, lol.

That insight check also gave me chills. Honestly, I don't even know how many times in my playthrough I was affectionately swearing at the screen calling him an effing bastard when he had that smug face and knew precisely how to make my Tav go along with his ideas. And then the game called me out.
This is also why I prefer the ascension path, because we get to see the innermost depth of his character. He doesn't change himself for Tav, but does what he wants with his newfound freedom and it's interesting to see. Only in there after all the buildup does he allow himself to indulge and turn his fantasies into reality. Spawn Astarion seems verbally and sexually repressed in comparison. Is he ashamed of himself when he's with Tav?

It's also worth noting that AA's body language changes too after ascending. He doesn't gesticulate with his whole body like before, doesn't resort to theatrics and emphatic bending (unless he's mocking his old self and is very angry during the breakup). Instead he's moving his head and hands more, while standing still and straight. He exudes an aura of confidence.


I also see his pride as the main change. Maybe he was actually like this before being turned into a vampire. He was a noble after all, and they also like intrigue and playing games. Killing and outsmarting Cazador might have simply given him his pride back. At some point in the game when making evil choices I started chuckling when seeing 'Astarion approves'. Well, of course he does! Every time.

What I find surprising is that he doesn't go after Tav when they've broken up with him after being turned into his spawn and before the ending. Maybe it's his wounded ego or maybe he's just waiting for the right moment.

Yeah, Cazador got too cocky in the end and forgot his precious third rule himself. All that planning gone to waste just because you rushed it in the end, that must sting. One of the few things I really enjoyed in Astarion's Origin was almost going through with the ritual. I wanted to drag it out as long as possible and see if anything would stop me (my trusty wizard and his none judgemental commentary did) but it was immensely satisfying to carve those lines into Cazador's back and see the horror grow on his face ... and then cut him into pieces.


The epilogue also implies that he uses Tav to spy on other people, their "friends" included, which is just another tool of domination. I also don't think that the second rule means "don't give out presents" but "don't share your bank account with anyone" - literally and metaphorically - he is lavishing presents on Tav, Tav is allowed to say what she wants. That doesn't mean Tav has equal rights, but that Tav is granted permission.

I have seen a lot of comments say that Ascended Astarion treats Tav like a precious belonging or a pet. While I get were the notion comes from, I wonder if I completely agree. For me he has a certain vision of the image he wants to create of himself, both for himself and for others, one that is more hedonistic than the one Cazador maintained. So being strick and crudely cruel, wouldn't fit that image. Astarion's strategy seems to be to gather blackmail material about his "friends" so he can use them when needed and to keep Tav placated by giving them presents and the illusion of having a say. They really haven't, they are his spawn, even though he prefers to call it consort because that sounds more regal. He seems to have a vision of the perfect relationship in which Tav is given a part to play and he goes through some length to ensure that vision holds. If Tav thinks all of this is very romantic, it works well, if they don't, it probably doesn't.

It oddly reminds me of Wyll's attempt to woe you in act2. If you think dancing is cute and all, it works but if he ... say, approaches the wizard with no dex or performance skills, the whole thing is just very funny. (Why Wyll, why? What made you think this was a good idea?)


In the beginning perhaps, by the time the graveyard roles around all the relevant uncomfortable stuff is out in the open already. Besides, I think he mostly means his sense of identity. I can't remember who I was when I was 10 or 6. I can believe that his memory of who he was two hundred years ago is murky at best or doesn't feel like him anymore.


It party sucks and partly I am glad? In the specific case I mentioned, it does suck but overall I think the tailoring that was done for Karlach feels very ... trite? It's like fawning over Karlach because she is so special, I wouldn't want that for Gale. I think that Astarion at least needs to feel like he is in control in some way and the overall bossy dialogue he has with Origin-Gale reflects that. It's like they trust each other and so Gale doesn't mind being ordered around or teased a bit. I wouldn't want to loose that aspect of the dialogue.


No disagreements there. =)

Thank you, Ametris <3
That’s why I love roleplay games, everyone can have his own story.


Well said! He is finally free to fulfil his „desire to live a life without restraint“ (Artbook). It’s such a pity, that they don’t reveal his past being a „corrupt elite“ with „a taste of power and a hunger for eternal life“ like you mentioned before. It would have made the character and story more complex and maybe more understandable.
Playing a good character was like: Astarion disapproves – reload – Astarion disapproves – reaload – Astarion … oh, approves! What? Why? OH! He is into sm? I am all yours, darling. Haha! No, joke aside. I love him being evil in cutscenes. One of my favourite was the confrontation with Ulma after the Ascension, where he was so arrogant and mean. Unfortunately with the latest Hotfix, I assume, they changed some of his facial expressions.. from looking self-confident and proud to disgusted and even worried. Such a shame to change this perfect scene… I know, just some microexpressions and perhaps others will not recognize it (?) but why do they have to change some of his facial expressions to disgusted, when he looked so good being proud and evil how it was before?

You mean, to reuunite after a breakup? It’s just not in the game to reunite with anyone, is it? Of course it would make sense in some romances to have this option. If it’s true, that Astarion is able to control you, when you lose your tadpole, it’s interesting, that he is not doing so after a breakup and the epilogue. He is not into revenge on you. He still asks to be partners in crimes, he likes and misses Tav.

Also, putting myself in Tav's shoes, I realize that my first decision to take the persuasion test (although the difficulty was low, only 15) was primarily due to a "metagame" mindset based on familiar stamps - "good deeds should lead to a good outcome", and I was afraid that in the case of Ascension, Astarion would suffer some kind of punishment for it in the story during the game. But truly living in that world Tav, who has no lines in front of her eyes showing where she can "roll the dice" and no idea of any "classic scenarios", would never have risked Astarion's fate like that, knowing that without larvae he would be burned by the sun, knowing his constant feelings of hunger, knowing he could be a spawn forever. She would support him, throwing away all her former "moral principles" that only work when you can afford it, and that in serious situations you should be guided solely by logic. She would have consoled Astarion near the cages, saying that it wasn't his fault, that it was all Kasador's fault (alas, I can only do that now in the next playthrough). It turns out that Ascension is Astarion's true, real desire, and also choosing this path is a truly "natural", "living" way of going through the game.


Yes, Cazador orchestrated the Gurts situation to get Astarion, it's unclear what his motives were for that? If there were no special motives, then we can assume that Astarion was a kind of "mistake" of Cazador (that's why he tried so hard to break him), and after Astarion, Cazador chose his victims more carefully, studying them better and making a kind of "psychological portrait" - stupid Petras, trusting his master, submissive and frightened Daliria (tried to do something with blood transfusion, but it failed and she didn't make any more attempts to save herself). We know next to nothing about the rest - the "favorite spawn" Leon, whose daughter Cazador held hostage, may have been the best, but that was balanced by having effective "leverage" on him, Violet, who liked to put garlic on everyone and giggle (which doesn't indicate high intelligence either). Apart from Astarion, the only other smart one was the former manager, who figured out how to fake his own death (we find him in a coffin, sort of "dead", but I think he woke up later and escaped) - but he was turned by Cazador in an "emergency" to replace Astarion.


Indeed!!! That line just gave me goosebumps.... I can't remember another scene that impressed me as much as the Ascension scene of Astarion.


Veliot may have been obliged to turn Cazador as a member of the Zarr family. Cazador also turned his niece (Lady Incognita, we find her diaries in the castle), but she didn't want that fate and ended up with a bad end. In my opinion, Veliot is a real, true psychopath who knows neither pity nor fear (he laughed when Cazador killed him), and Cazador is a secondary, "made" psychopath. If Cazador had any personality originally, it was completely erased and destroyed by Veliot; he is a "copycat maniac", fixated on rules that weren't even created by him.


Neither Veliot nor Cazador cared for the Zarr clan as such, which led to the clan's downfall. If you read about vampire clans on Faerûn, you'll see that the "one maniac theater" that Cazador set up has nothing to do with the rules of existence of adequate successful vampire families, where they have their own hierarchy and rules, but no such insane cruelty, and they exist and function normally for centuries.
Astarion is not a member of the Zarr family, and I believe the castle is a trophy, not an inheritance. Astarion is a new Ascended Lord who can start his own clan. Veliot's rules don't work (except for "don't act in haste") - Veliot and Cazador are dead, and Astarion and Tav, whose strength is not in solitude but in deep unity, have won.

I'm sure that Astarion's "domination" will not prevent him from listening to Tav if she offers him reasonable things in terms of organizing and managing the clan, building the castle's defenses, etc. The "domination" even now happens in a playful form, more related to love games, and it's hard to say what the couple's relationship will be like in two or three hundred years - my guess is that they are heading for a full and deep merger, "when the two become one".


It also made me feel terribly sad next to the unascended Astarion. I opened my consciousness to him in the second act (although the embrace scene looks much more beautiful and touching, it's a pity that it's impossible to combine these two variants, "opening your consciousness" seems to me a more serious action, which allows you to show the depth of your feelings). If Tav doesn't want to live without Astarion, and he thinks she needs "some more stimuli", what to do about it? And after the Ascension at least there's an opportunity to prove something, because if you don't "give Astarion everything" he's not going to believe you worth a damn. He's a paranoid big-eared

By the way, the Ascended Astarion didn't care about the audience - it makes me laugh a lot how the companions in the background (especially amused by Carlach's facial expressions ) periodically crooked their faces when hearing his charming compliments to Tav.


Yes, this version makes Tav some kind of emotionless doll. In general, there are few opportunities to express love with the unascended Astarion, so much so that it feels as if the lines were written by a machine. Or it's done that way on purpose.


I guess when you play the story of two characters with their own personalities, it gives its own flavor and it's a slightly different perception than when you "launch your 'cooler' alter ego into the game". Everyone has their own story, their own character, they influence each other. You've mentioned several times how Astarion influences Gale's relationship with Mystra, and Gale's own path choices. In Tav's case, the story starts to revolve around Astarion alone, and the game is perceived a little differently.


Oh, I really like this ending. I don't know what to rebel against - happiness and the possibility of being with the person I love forever? I don't see a collar, but a "guarantee." And when Astarion tells Tav "not to worry, she will always belong to him," I hear something like, "Don't be afraid. I will never betray you, I will never abandon you. I will always be with you." Just in an " Astarion style" kind of way.


"In the suffering of the lowly we find the consolation of our own suffering" (from Malus Torm's diary, not verbatim). Astarion loves kitties! (double approval when dealing with "His Majesty" in the Last Light). He approves when you take a little owlbear into camp and take care of it. He feels sorry for the hyena being bullied by the goblins ( approval for helping the hyena and "evil" approval for sending the goblin into the shadows, but he deserved it)


To be honest, it didn't offend me at all. During the scene itself this question seemed completely inappropriate to me, I was checking it "in test mode", I think Tav could have asked it later, in a calm atmosphere, just for the sake of interest. It seems perfectly normal to me that a person doesn't trust me at the beginning of a relationship, that I have to somehow show that I'm worthy of his trust, because he doesn't know anything about me yet. Especially Astarion, who has gotten nothing but pain from the world ("I prayed to them all. No one answered"). One could make a joke about how he "tried so hard for nothing" - I really wanted to protect him without any "vulgar thoughts" and a little later Astarion decides to give the gift of a night with him to get that very protection - funny coincidence


Interesting! I had acquaintances who were passionate about this theme, and it was interesting for me to ask them to tell me about their philosophy - they told me, among other things, that it was "trust". At the time, I could only understand it at the level of logic, as a fact that some people see relationships that way. But in the case of Astarion, I was able to feel it - both trust and the feeling of happiness from the fact that you can give yourself entirely to the person you love, to give him pleasure. The "second time" I was able to do this, despite the fact that I was "broken" the first time. This is a completely new and unusual experience for me.


I was also expecting Astarion to start trying to "dominate" or "push through" his decisions at some plot points, but he doesn't. He doesn't do anything at all in any way "bad" or "evil" towards Tav.


Yes, it's a pity that Astarion hides so many interesting things about himself... By the way, in the list of visitors who are not allowed in Theobald Torm's tavern there is mentioned an elf with a cheeky grin who called the innkeeper "pig-horn" (I don't remember the exact quote). Could this have been Astarion? It seems to coincide in time, and Astarion went to taverns (his trouble happened in a tavern where he was attacked by the Gurts).


Interesting fact, too bad I searched the chest myself then, let's see if he reacts to the letter if he finds it in the chest at camp...


At the same time, Astarion gives such a huge return, such a strong affection in response to your feelings that if his relationship is "unhealthy" - it discredits all notions of "healthy relationships". I would call this relationship more of an "abnormal" relationship if you consider the norm to be not something good, but something most common and habitual. Like if a legendary artifact of divine power suddenly appeared in the shop of a blacksmith who sells well forged +1 swords - that sword would be "abnormal" for that shop.

He also spies on them himself when he "stretches his wings" and flies around in his bat form. It just looks like a fun thing they like to do together. After all, their goal is to rule BG and as aristocrats they are also playing games in the political intrigue. To me they are a dark team through and through, but in case of arguments Astarion would have the last word as the dominant one he might even flaunt his power in Tav's face to remind them they're still his. They love each other and share a project together.

Yeah, that Wyll scene is completely not to my taste. I could see that happening with Astarion in his palace though after beating Cazador. A dance of triumph. ^^


Tav specifically asks him about events in his life. Link for reference of the scene. He looks like he's hiding something. https://www.youtube.com/shorts/ozCDwc4_8UU


I don't understand why they took such special care when it comes to Karlach, even giving her a unique kiss, dialogues when it comes to Wyll and an ending, when she's the most incompatible person for him personality and alignment wise. When you play as Tav she is the only one he doesn't even attempt to flirt with or sounds tempted by anything in her. Githyanki Tav cannot take him to the Astral Plane but Karlach sure can take him to Avernus. Then there's the tragic aspect of her stupid engine, as if Astarion already didn't have the saddest background and needed even more of that crap. This ship makes me cringe so hard.

Petras reminds me of a guy who works at McDonald's and his main goal in life is to get in the "employee of the month" frame. (in no way mean to offend McDonald's employees, it's just a comparison!). And anyone who doesn't strive to be the "best employee" is to him "a piece of shit and the worst of them all". Petras' opinion can only excite someone who also aspires to be "the best worker at Cazadore's McDonald's".


I had Shadowheart, and their dialog with Astarion in the background was a bit creepy. Interestingly, Shadowheart gives two endorsements (more endorsements at the end if Tav passes the test with flying colors), but Astarion only approves of you agreeing to stand up to the priest's blows, it's like he doesn't care how "cool" you are in the test. True, back then, the relationship with Tav was just beginning and Astarion didn't have any special feelings for her yet. Perhaps he also wanted to make you feel what he had felt before, to "be in his shoes".


I wanted to explain myself to him, to prove him wrong after this test. But perhaps there's no point, Astarion won't believe anything anyway. In my opinion, Astarion's egoism also lies in the fact that he is extremely fixated on himself, he does not even try to analyze the feelings of his beloved, to try to find out what she thinks. He has his own "impenetrable" opinion.


Yeah, it sounds like it. And it's just impossible to bear. And if you compare the "sexiness" of the two scenes, but fans of the unascended Astarion Larian have been pretty much deprived.


Good point!


I think these comments are simply based on a "literal" understanding of the lines. While saying those lines, Astarion is acting, "showing off" to Tav, he is clearly enjoying her attention. And the warm smiles at the end.

Gathering information about his friends is logical, Astarion doesn't trust them, and it's really worth knowing what's on their minds and if they're dangerous. As long as there was a common goal - they were "friends", but who knows what will come into their minds later. For example, Jaheira says she's "going to be a very annoying neighbor to him." That's the right decision, if I were Tav I would have suggested it myself, even without initiative from Astarion. I know exactly how these "friends" would have behaved if Astarion hadn't ascended and suffered at the end of the game. After watching the scene at the docks, it's very difficult for me to regain my former attitude towards them, and even though I "behave decently" in the game and fulfill their quests as best I can for them, to me they are still more like "random fellow travelers" bound by a common goal and a common problem, rather than "friends". If they believe the diplomatic Tav and think otherwise, so much the better, the easier it will be to "keep an eye on them". After all, let them not create a "necessary occasion" in which "blackmail materials" will have to be used. And how much of Astarion's attitude is considered romantic - does it matter that much? Astarion enjoys it, I admire it and enjoy it too, that's what romance is. There's no need to appease Tav, she's perfectly calm as it is "The Right to Vote" may indeed be needed at some points in the future, especially if Astarion wants to show his penchant for risk and get involved in something questionable, but I have absolutely no faith in those who say "Astarion will never respect you". Astarion is too smart to ignore the reasoned opinion of the closest person they've been through so much together.


Oh yeah, Astarion's approval is the most "hard to get" in the game. The others are gained by themselves, without any effort, but with Astarion I got a "beautiful 100" only by the end of the second/beginning of the third chapter. Now I run past beggars, afraid to enter into a dialog - and refuse them ashamed, and "100" do not want to spoil, Astarion never approved of such spending .