Larian Studios Forums Baldur's Gate III Baldur's Gate III - Story & Character Discussion Justice for Gale

It is already distressing that convincing Gale to participate in the brothel sex is treated like a joke when he’s very much uncomfortable about it—and even once the scene is over he’s adamant he and the player never talk about it again.

You’re right that basically the player can’t even engage in that scene without treating Gale like garbage. It’s ridiculous.

Seriously, did several writers on this project just despise Gale and let it bleed into their work? I cannot think of another explanation.

Edit: I actually think it should be in the Suggestions and Feedback channel that being able to talk Gale into the brothel sex is disgusting as is. It’s coercive and icky. Especially when he very much doesn’t like it.

If Gale was a female character and those options were there (calling him “boring” in bed, coercing him to participate in a sex act he explicitly said he didn’t want to when the other option is straight up being cruel to him, etc) there would be a firestorm, but somehow it’s okay because he’s a guy? No thanks.

It has been done.

So much for having "intimacy counselors" as part of the dev team. More lip service, more likely, unless these intimacy counselors bought their training at Walmart.

I may be wrong, but I think that was for the actors, not the writers.

I think this is a problem with the romance in the game in general. It's been marketed as "mature" but 75% it's the opposite for me. It shows with the other companions, and it most definitely shows with Gale. I'm never gonna romance Gale but even I know that not backing him up and even agreeing with those who insult him while romancing him + his Sharess Caress scene is incredibly low and insensitive. But instead it's just played for laughs, because fuck Gale. At least you can control whatever goes on in Sharess Caress, the rest not so much.

I've also never done Gale's romance, but I often have a problem with his dialogue in general. It feels like unless I'm asking questions my options are either "yes, absolutely, happy to help" or "go f*ck yourself". Where's the "yeah ok" option? And of course then there's the famous "I hate cats".

Well, it all makes sense now. They hired intimacy counselors so the actors wouldn't sue for having to act out the abhorrent writing.

Without having read all the pages, i will just add that i want justice for Gale, too. I deon't even trigger the brothel scene with him. Given that man is 100% monogamous, it would feel like rape to me, to make him even watch....


Them the new epilogues: The God Gale ending is the "evil" ending for me, as he is a god od ambition after all. Which means, once a goal is achieved he will find another. Once he finished his strugglw ith Mystra, he will fins another enemy. At the end of the day he will never be happy or satisfied.

The -worst- ending is sacrificinmg Gale and you see his image telling you Goodbye, only topped with Raphael has the Crown of Karsus. The letter he leaves is right in the feels...

I don't care what others think, my idea of the "Good" ending is the Waterdeep professor Gale, because he just seems more happy and content. Only a good partner can beat this ending. Ok, if we get marrioed to Gale, we also have to basically marry Tara and his mother. But i feel this is the best ending. No power can beat the power of Love and happiness.


But my actual purpose to post here is: Astarion and Wyll and everyone got a new Kiss animation. Why not Gale? I played just post the romance in act 2, scene where you're finally able to kiss him and then this.... he still has the old Kiss animation. Gale is not such a bad character. Many people still like him, so he deserves more attention. Please Developers: give him a Kiss animation, that we do not just see in the epilogue, but the rest if the Romance also!

This is already in the works, FYI. Just hasn't been implemented yet.

I love Gale!

If he's not along for the ride it definitely feels like something's missing. On my first Durge run I didn't realize that you could also choose to not bite his hand off. I just figured it was something like Gale wasn't available to record the Durge-y lines, so that was their work around. I thought for sure that decision would come back to haunt me, but it didn't really. Instead I just found myself missing Gale.

He's one of the most reliable companions and he really shines in the 3rd act, because Wizards at lvl 12 just bring so much to the table, plus he's got all the flying cats and whatnot. Even early on though, he's got some definite chops for story delivery. My Sorcerers wouldn't even know what's going on half the time, if Gale wasn't there to explain it for us. I love that he eats the artifacts. I love the first time when he dies and you have to do the whole crazy routine to resurrect him. What's a little weird is that in my last run I never got that one, but maybe that's cause he ate all 3 artifacts before dying or something? Not sure, but I did enjoy that quite a bit the first time around. I love all the book stuff and his running commentary.


I did that ending shown above for one of my Tactician runs, but I got a totally different sort of closer. This was a patch 4 playthrough. In that one my Sorceress had romanced Lae'zel, as tends to happen, so we sided with Orpheus and I transformed into the flayer myself. I got in the weeds for the last battle and it was pretty late, so I decided to give the ball to Gale and just go hail mary with it into the endzone. I loved that I still had that option at the end, and that Gale was there when we needed him most. Down to take it all the way.

He totally did the same speech as in the video above, except that after he detonated, instead of that lonely fugue plane afterparty, it skipped straight to the final Orpheus cutscene. Gale was alive again and I was alive again and everybody was there and happy chatting it up before we shipped off to the Astral. Somehow when the Gale bomb went off everything just worked out perfectly, as if by magic, which seemed apt. I mean except for my face, which still had the tentacles, but otherwise it felt totally worth it!

I guess maybe that was a bugged game ending, but it completely worked for me and put me in a great mood when that run concluded. Total hero move on Gale's part. I thought that was a rad outro. It fully made Gale into the MVP for saving Faerun when the chips were down, but like with none of the downside or bitter aftertaste.

He's a winner. He deserves a happy ending.

Sounds like a bug, especially if it was the previous patch. Around that time I heard people report that once they were teleported to the docs he'd show up alive like in a normal ending, despite the characters making comments about his death a few moments earlier.

That resurrection thing is awesome, lol. On Hoonour mode especially, I do that 'quest', then raise him with a regular scroll - True Resurrection is waaaay too handy to have in the endgame

My current theory is, that you only get the "In Case of Death" quest if he dies before the orb get stabilised. Yurgir bombed him away on my Tactician run recently which was his first death and it produced neither projection nor aura.

But the first time I got the quest was very special to me. I hadn't completely understood all the mechanics yet and Gale got pushed into the Chasm by one of Dror Ragzlin's goons. He was the first one who had really died on me and I was scared that he was gone for good. Seeing his stupid projection filled me with so much joy and relief, I would have hugged it, if there had been an option.

To bring the bear-rug into this room as well: I only just realised how truly atrocious this whole larger brothel situation can be for Astarion & Gale if you line up events in the right (or the very wrong) way.

In Rivington you can first meet Tara and make date plans with Gale (I am not sure if friends also get an invitation to dinner). The murder trail then leads you to the Flophouse where you meet Astarion's siblings and learn more about the ritual. From their you are lead to Sharess' Caress, where Madame will gift you with a stint with the Drow twins for solving her employee problem. (Alternately, you can also start with Madame and wrap it up from there.) Should Halsin be in the party, he will make his interest to join you with the twins known, not matter whether or not you have shown any interest in him before. If you progress the "Agreement? What kind of agreement?" line of dialogue both Astarion & Gale will make their disinterest known, for Astrion it ends there (as this is Pre-Cazador) for Gale you can either mock him or make him go through with it. Also there is an option to go alone with one of the Drow which Gale will also not like but apparently he is not allowed to do anything about it either.

So after having established that both guys don't have much to offer in regards to sex (because one has "complications" and the other is boring) you move on, coronations happen, contracts are changed, eventually Halsin makes his moves with the "many lovers" speech which may or may not be motivated by an orgy or at least the thought of one. So in this scenario, Astarion's reply is very hard to read as anything but fear of loosing the PC, while in Gale's case you can either dump the "boring guy" for the hot druid or are left with the feeling of having chosen the stable but dull relationship. All around lovely.

And the reverse card for SH. You can progress Rivington and show up in sharess caress where she declines to sleep with them(until you have first time with her). Game also always puts Halsin's offer before her scene, so there you can decline his "offer" in the most hard way(deep rothe line) and he is gonna be chill for some time, however after her scene you instantly get Halsin's banter proposing threesome in the morning into Sharess' caress ridiculous thing. It's like reverse Gale situation almost.
Thats why I say this thing in brothel and Halsin overall should be somehow tweaked for all the companions.

I'm mainly a Gale fan. I figure he can be a little awkward at times but it makes sense given he's been isolated for a year and didn't have friends before that. His bragging doesn't bother me because from the bottom of my heart I do not believe him lol. I immediately took it as a front where guy's trying to make himself useful in an irreplaceable way. Makes sense when Gale sees himself as personally worthless at best, an imposition or burden at worst. I don't even think the orb incident was an act of hubris (he wanted to have personal worth to Mystra the way she had personal worth to him--reasonable in a healthy/equal relationship) and I genuinely don't think it's something he needs to be forgiven for. ESPECIALLY when Mystra's a former mortal herself. I don't think what Gale did was morally wrong. Just tragic and naïve.

I'm inclined to give Larian benefit of the doubt in the sense that I think the interview was carelessly, imprecisely expressed and fans have latched onto the worst possible interpretation of it. I still think it would serve well to clarify if that's the case. Selfishly, it's distracting when I want to make my own content celebrating the game and leaves a shitty taste in my mouth on top of that. I'm sure I'm not the only person in that position. The worst interpretation of the interview IS pretty horrendous too, so it's worth putting to rest if it isn't intended imo.

I do think Gale and Wyll (incidentally) aren't being handled with the same gravity and respect for their abuse as other cast members. I hope it's not because they're male victims of female abusers, but it's weird that they're the two whose victimization isn't always afforded weight. They also both are put into positions of being told that if they don't self-destruct the way their abusers want, it's their fault should anyone else get hurt. Not the Absolute, not Mizora, not the Dead Three, not Gortash. Just them. Both Wyll and Gale are taught not to trust themselves or their own abilities independent of their abusers. Both Wyll and Gale were approached and taken advantage of from young ages. And the narrative... tends to reinforce that crap, implying they would be bad people for treating themselves as worthy of protection too. For not submitting to their abusers. Which is manipulative bullshit to the highest degree. That is literally the kind of shit abusers use on kids in real life to keep them from talking. Ex. 'If you tell anyone I'm going to kill your family and it will be all your fault.'

With Gale, I think there may be an added issue where the writers want to tease him for being a bit lame (which is fine, I do it to characters I love all the time and find lameness endearing haha) but all the punchlines are serious issues he's struggling with. Guy was groomed from a young age and has limited sexual experience outside of Mystra? Make fun of him sexually. Suicidal person believes himself to be annoying, unlikable, and only as good as the magic he offers? Lol he should just kill himself, it's ridiculous to think anyone would like him. How embarrassing would THAT be?

Poke fun at how much of a cat dad he is or something. Fans are already on that page and it's cute. Going after the sources of his trauma is like making slut jokes about Astarion for being raped over two centuries.

There are ways to tease that are affectionate, and there's teasing that feels cruel. Gale's one of the main characters in this game and a romance option. Larian succeeded in getting a lot of players to love him, and told a story about abuse and mental health issues that resonates with a lot of people. It's only shooting themselves in the foot to frame him as less worthy of care than other characters.

It does feel like Larian, when developing this story and the characters, were respectful with the trauma of the female characters (and Astarion but likely because his abuser was a man) whereas Gale and Wyll’s abuse by female characters is regarded as either
1) their fault or 2) a joke or 3) a good thing.

Like the recent holiday cartoon had Wyll salivating over an autograph of Mizora. It was so tone-deaf. Imagine if the cartoon had Astarion blush over a photo of Cazador? Or Karlach wolf whistling at a picture of Gortash?

What is the message here? That Wyll’s abuse is sexy because Mizora is hot? That we aren’t meant to sympathize with him? It does his story a disservice.

I get the cartoon isn’t meant to be taken seriously, but again that’s the thing that Wyll’s abuse at the hands of Mizora is something not considered worthy of tact or understanding.

Unfortunately we have a long ways to go as a society before male victims of abuse are given consideration.

Oh jeez, I didn't see that and wasn't aware. That's pretty horrendous. Wtf.

Like... strip morality and craftsmanship out for a second, do they not realize that's not a smart move in terms of business? They spent a whole story where they got players invested in the characters and their most vulnerable experiences as victims of abuse. They specifically went out of their way to NOT position Mizora like an abusive lover to Wyll. She went for him when he was old enough to think he knew better and young enough to be extremely mistaken. She has been constantly in his head via sending stone ever since. I can't think of a single scene where Wyll isn't horrified and repulsed by her. It's not even a 'when it's good it's great, when it's bad it's my fault' flavor of abuse--which would still be uncomfortable with the cartoon you described.

When the playerbase cares about and identifies with these characters, while seeing them as vulnerable... does Larian think audiences will react well to making fun of or trivializing that vulnerability? That's pretty much the fastest way to piss fans off. It's detrimental to building a following and a good reputation.

Saying this with love, but they can easily tease Wyll for dramatic nicknames. He shows in-game he's ready to slap 'em on other people too. Give him the same enthusiasm making up titles for vendors, cooks, guards, and particularly impressive animals. He could actually pull through to become a memeable advertising slogan generator if they play their cards right.

Suggesting he wanted Mizora's abuse is just really messed up and alienating as hell. I legitimately think they need to ask themselves what the punchline of jokes are with this stuff.

And yeah... I've noticed people seem to struggle with male victims of female abusers. Since Larian did decide to go there, they should probably focus on them as characters who were abused by other characters instead of whether gender dynamics make it more or less serious. It's all serious.

I didn't take much of it as bragging tbh (apart from the obvious bragging parts) but as fun childhood anecdotes - you can meet both of the creatures he summoned after all - which he uses to befriend you and persuade you that he is more use than trouble. Persuasion is after all his dialogue proficiency so it makes sense he uses it with you - and with Mystra. It's odd how this act is sometimes held against him "because he should have been happy with what he had" isn't defying the Gods the main content of the game? And aren't many Tavs gobbling up special unique buffs and powers right left and center?

In general, I don't like how patronising the player dialogue gets when talking about power. In Gale's case, when you discuss his plans of not-quite-godhood with him two of the options are something along the lines of "I love you for the man you are are, not the god you'd pretend to be" and the usual "power corrupts" both feel very moralising to me (the "pretend" is bothering me in the first one). At this point the characters have had enough brushes with the gods to give you a multitude of arguments against Gale's plan. I would have loved real arguments based on previous experiences, as they would have helped to show your connection through the experiences you shared. A discussion based on reasonable arguments would also feel more suitable to convince an INT-based character like Gale.

There are also a few moments in which I'd like an option to take his side or at least talk to him afterwards. There is this moment you can get with Lorroakan on the no-godhood path, which makes it pretty clear that Gale's Folly has also made him a bit of a laughing stock in the academic community. This was previously only hinted at at best (It certainly puts a new light on his year in solitude.) and it's a topic worth a discussion, if only to check if he is alright after the scene.