You're running for your life, chased by goblins intent on killing you and possibly eating you. Who among us wouldn't run to the safety of the grove, hoping to find sanctuary?

The nerve of these refugees. They're all running for their lives also, and Zevlor has the audacity to gatekeep the safety of the grove? Ordering the gates closed? If it weren't for this ridiculous order then Kanon might have lived. Instead he was forced to try to open the gate at the last minute, exposing himself to arrows in the midst of an attack.

Then Aradin gets called a blowhard for being upset. I'd be upset too.

Anyone who knew that leading the enemy straight to the doorstep of your friends and family is a colossally stupid move.

Literally, the only thing stopping the Goblins from murderizing the entire grove is that they don't know where it is. That's what they were torturing what's-his-face to find out. It's what Minthara wants you to tell her.


Ahh yes, the nerve. Apparently it's not normal for a bunch of civilians to not want to open the doors for a bunch of people who explicitly want to slaughter them...


If it wasn't for the ridiculous order to open the gates, Kanon WOULD have lived. At least temporarily. When the goblins went back to their camp and told everyone where the grove was, everyone would likely die...

At the point of Aradin coming to the gates, he had doomed everyone in the grove, including himself, unless the impromtu militia were able to kill every last goblin he'd lead there. Which, if it wasn't for a trio of random strangers happening upon them at that exact moment... Wouldn't have happened.


He's a blowhard because he made a dumb decision. He did the literal worst possible thing he could, purely to save his own sorry hide and to hell with the dozens of others he put in mortal danger because of that decision.

Then he gets all angry because apparently everyone didn't like him completely disregarding them and putting them in mortal danger to save himself...

Aradin IS a blowhard. Have you talked with him in Baldur's Gate?

This is just silly. Anyone would head for the safety of the grove as opposed to dying and being eaten by goblins. At least there's a chance of living if you make it and get behind the gate. From there you can defend yourself.

In fact, the grove has been attacked more than once before this scene even plays out.

The idea of someone taking solace in knowing the grove's location is still hidden while getting eaten is nonsense.

And yes, the refugees have a lot of nerve. They're literally hiding in the grove for protection while the druids are complaining about their presence.


Nothing he says or does in Act III changes that he was right in trying to get back to the grove. And that Zevlor was wrong for keeping the gate--which doesn't even belong to the tieflings--shut. Kanon's death is on Zevlor. He let his ego and dislike of Aradin get in the way.

The guy in the torture chamber seems to think that keeping the Grove's location a secret is worth a lot of pain - and he's also from Aradin's group. From what we learn in the Goblin Camp, none of the scouting missions to find the Grove have been successful. On the other side, the Grove knows that it's only a matter of time until they are found out. Aradin brought that moment closer.

What would you have done?

I'd probably keep that dwarf on the spit company. ^^

Nobody in Aradin's group is injured and they are a small bunch compared to the war party following them. I think I'd have tried to shake them off before compromising my only safe spot in the area. Leading the gobbos to the nautiloid crash site, seems like a plan (even though it's dangerously close to the grove) because the carnage might mask the group's scent and with a little luck, the goblins are too scared to venture near the big thing that crashed down from the sky anyway. Seems a good place to get lost in.

Aradin aside I have always found it odd that a refugee is in charge of the gate.

he is guarding the gate as part payment for the druids letting them stay in the grove... thats how i read the senario

the blowhard part is because of a race issue i.e, horns = bad in his eyes, it has nothing to do with the grove or running for their lives... the guy is just a dick

I also say with regard to Aradin, what was his plan long term? Once he and his team reached the grove, if they had been let in, no way would the goblins not have noticed the entrance. They did waste some time talking but there's no way they could have hidden the place with the goblins hot in Aradin's heels as they were. If Zevlor had let them I righ away instead of hesitating (and till ultimately trying to let them in, resulting in the death of one of his people) then the goblins likely would have just turned and reported back, with no one to pick a fight against as everyone was safely behind the wall. Then they have to deal with the cult forces coming back in full strength. So now Aradin either has an uglier fight to look forward to, or more likely given how we see him react in the actual game, he packs up and leaves the grove to fend for itself after bringing effectively certain doom down upon them.

"THERE ARE CHILDREN HERE YOU FOOL!!!"

Indeed, the druids outsourced security to the refugees. Shows what a great manager Halsin was ...
But don't think about this too much.
Just like e.g. Star Wars the plot falls apart the closer you look at it
Aradin:
"Children? And I should care because? Foulbloods ... "
And he isn't wrong. One of the filthy little things will steal from his crew.

I don't think it's that wild honestly. They were mainly there to keep watch, since the grove was hidden. I imagine that when it was set up the ideawas that the tieflings would keep watch and alert the druids if the goblin scouts started getting uncomfortably close, not that there would be a full scale clash at the gates because someone led the goblins back to them directly. If you consider from that angle, then it's pretty reasonable to let a group who's a mix of civillians and a handful of people with greater experience (and who all survived for a time in Hell, don't forget that) take the effort of guard duty off your hands in exchange for letting them stay for a while. I think the strange thing is why none of the druids came to deal with the attack. I would think that in this situation, a runner would be sent to alert them.

@Gray Ghost - you make good points.

Druids: "Hey, this is our grove. You refugees can't be here because you're making things more dangerous for us."

Tieflings: "But we're refugees running for our lives. You have to let us stay. Hmm. Maybe if we got rid of Kagha."

Also Tiefliings: "Aradin, you can't come inside the grove because you're making things more dangerous for us."

Aradin: "But we're running for our lives!"

--So they're running for their lives, just like the tieflings. But they're expected to die nobly and get eaten by goblins because... they should be saving the tieflings. But the tieflings shouldn't be saving them. And the druids should let the tieflings stay because... they should be saving the tieflings. While the tieflings are considering getting rid of Kagha; in fact, they're open to paying someone to do it.

So firstly to be fair, I get the sense that before Kagha started taking over the druids overall were fine with the tieflings. There are clearly some who weren't, but I get the sense that most of them were generally okay to shelter the tieflings. As for Aradin, it's not as though Zevlor straight up kept the gate closed. Forgive me if I'm misremembering but Aradin showed up in a panic, Zevlor asked where Halsin was (a fair question since he's in charge) and then when Zevlor realized what was happening he actually did yell for the gate to be opened. Then one of the tieflings in the middle of openning the gate died by goblin arrow so the gate shut again and focus shifted to fending off the goblins. Which was tactically justifiable because some goblins might have gotten in and Zevlor wasn't prepared to risk putting more of his people in the most vulnerable position possible in that scenario. You can also argue that if they had let Aradin and his people in, the goblins would have either fled to alert the rest of the camp, or just kept pushing in and actually broken through the gate, at which point not only would Aradin and his people still have had to fight them, but all those civilians would also now be at risk.

The tieflings may potentially be drawing trouble (which actually isn't true, the cult's main target was always the grove, you could argue that they weren't in meaningfully more danger with them. There were certainly issues arising but that's another matter) but letting the tieflings in didn't open the grove up to imminent danger right in the moment. Really Aradin's mad that Zevlor didn't open the gate fast enough, and when Zevlor did open the gate after the battle was over, Zevlor had very reasonable gripes with Aradin's rash choice.

Zevlor had to be called to the gate. Kanon explicitly tells Aradin that he will not open the gate. "Zevlor's orders," he says.

It's only when Zevlor finally arrives at the gate that he begins asking about the druid. Meanwhile, Aradin is still pleading to get in and that's when the goblins show up. Then, and only then, does Zevlor order the gate open.

Assuming that the goblins encountered less opposition, odds are they would have acted in the same way, and they would have been far easier to beat. In fact, you can see what happens in that fight if you don't participate. It's not like the goblins suddenly win and overtake the grove. One of the strange things about those goblins is that they continue attack the gate even when they are outmatched. It's part of the tactics anathema to their kind.

The difference is the urgency of the threat.

Aradin live in the Grove with the refugees. It's just that at the time they come pounding on the gate, they're literally being chased by goblins, the goblins that are trying to find the grove specifically to murder everyone inside.

Zevlor isn't against allowing Aradin back inside. He's against doing it when there's literally goblins 10ft behind them.

Aradin, like you, doesn't seem to grasp the danger that having goblins 10ft behind him entails. Besides the "We'll die if we confront them" aspect.

The Druids simply don't like that the presence of the refugees has made them a target for those such as the goblins (The fact that they continue to kick out the Tieflings even after you clear out the goblin camp is another poorly explained plot point) but the threat is not so urgent as to simply banish them from the grounds in an instant.

Ha ha this is spot on...it is a silly situation when you think about it.

The tieflings are refugees who have nowhere else to go. They are families and children. Aradin and his gang are adventurers who chose to get into a fight with goblins at their own camp and then led those goblins back to the grove full of refugees.

And no, of course I wouldn't lead an army to a refugee camp. Certainly not when I'm the one who is entirely at fault for the confrontation to begin with. Why should children die because I'm an idiot?

Aradin does not care for children - or druids, for that matter. All he cares about is himself and - to an extent - his minions. Goblins who are busy murdering children are Goblins who are NOT fighting and/or chasing him and his crew.

As to Aradin and his crew - at least one adventurer's guild rejected Remira for being "too renumeration focused/motivated" ...

Well, Aradin was an idiot for sure ...
And pathetic one for that matter, what were chasing him was barely worth a sweat.

BUT!

Looking at things from his perspective, the Groove is the only fortification in the area ...
Feels like he didnt have much other options. :-/

//Edit:
Fun fact ...
Same could be told about both Zevlor and Kagha ... coincidence?

LOL!
Well, all are - or are leaning towards - NE ...
:P

I agree Khaga is neutral evil, but I wouldn't say Zevlor is close to that, and I'd argue even Aradin isn't. If you ask me, he's just a chaotic neutral jerk, but not evil. And Aradin is probably neutral good in a harsh position.

Talk to him in Baldur's gate about kidnapping Nightsong.

Ha, I mistyped there. Aradin is, as I said, chaotic neutral in my mind. Zevlor is who I meant to say was neutral good.

OK - all good