Larian Studios Forums Baldur's Gate III Baldur's Gate III - Story & Character Discussion The romance with Astarion pulls you over to the "dark side".

It's noticeable that something is missing there. There's a saying "if you erase someone's past you control their future". It just looks like they're sneakily trying to turn him into a good guy, when he's not.


I stuck to my dialogues and choices, because he was approving a lot anyways. I had nearly maxed out approval by the end of act 1. I think I only changed two or three dialogue options with him when I wasn't sure what to pick and because I liked the flow of the conversation better and the extra approval was just a small bonus. His voice actor when playing BG3 reloads himself when he disapproves too, so no need to feel bad about it.

I checked the game and compared it to the scene from patch 3 and you're right! Damn it, why did they have to change it? They also cut the time the camera focused on him, and it stays on Ulma more now while he talks, what the hell. The previous iteration was much better!

Him being evil and aggressive in scenes is awesome, I love how he manhandled Petras and stayed silent just to see what he'd do. The way he screams at Cazador 'Wake up!' is so good. He reminds me of Fenris from DA2 with this stuff, and I also let him give into his bloodlust all he wanted.


Yes, I mean him getting Tav back. I was expecting some yandere action. He's very determined and threatening when he says 'You're mine!' when Tav wants to break up in the epilogue but if they do it earlier he's weirdly chill about it. I thought he'd want to remind them about their eternal commitment. I guess it was too much work to put that in the game, because then they would have had to allow a reunion opportunity for other companions.


Astarion's ascension is hands down my favourite scene in the game.


I did the mind merge too, felt more appropriate and more intimate in that situation. The best scenario is connecting through the tadpole and then hugging, but alas...


He doesn't like to talk about feelings but he sure does love to show off. He sounds so smug when he tells Tav that everyone in camp must know about their night together because of how loud Tav was. xD


At least Tav can actually say 'I love you' to him. With Ascendant we can only call him 'my love' in the new epilogue.


To me it's both of these things. There is a hidden banter between him and Lae'zel when he says 'I need someone I can trust, and now I know they'll never betray me'.


Interesting, totally forgot about it.


It certainly goes beyond any traditional and common relationships!

Good examples! I loved his Majesty! Such a badass cat. I never liked that Astarion approves in hurting/killing the squirrel or the bird in the grove. (Not that I did this)

In my playthrough I didn't chose this either, my Tav naively fell for him on the first sight, and I had the high approval confession scene. But this, I was talking about, I just looked up, is an option you can choose in the alternative "hug" scene after Araj. It’s interesting to see how he behaves differently on other options. He is even laughing about Tav, how easy it was for him to seduce Tav and Tav is looking so pissed off. Haha, what a Bastard.

I have the same feeling. In any case it's unpleasant for him to talk about it


Yes exactly- depending on the Gur scene, because if you haven’t met Ulma before, this scene is a bit longer - Astarion is seen less now! And I do not like some changes of the facial expressions. 3 examples, I'll add a picture. Left side is the old version. Right side the new version.

At the Beginning Ulma says: „Hold there, spawn!“ and Vampire Lord Astarion is laughing: „Spawn? Ha!“ and further:“ I am the Vampire Ascendant, (Pause) Gur! And I thought I was done with your wretched little tribe.“

1. When he is saying the word „Spawn?“, on the old scene he had an angry (eyebrows are pulled together and down) and only slightly disgusted (nose wrinkled) facial expression, but in the new version only a disgusted facial expression (no anger anymore, as if he had bitten into a lemon).

2. After this he said proudly „Vampire Ascendant“, he looked very self-confident (it also fitted with his voice) in the old version, but in the new version.. WHAT THE HELL IS THIS!? A strange mixed sad-concerned-fearful expression. Oh please!

3. And when he says „wretched little tribe“, on the word tribe, he had that great proud self-confident laugh, and in the new Version? Only disgust! Helllo lemons again!

Who decided to ruin Vampire Lord’s self-confident facial expressions? I'm sorry if I digress from the topic, but if they continue changing Astarion's facial expressions into this, it isn't drawing to his dark side.

You have alot of enthusiasm! I am glad we are on page six now, the scrolling got out of hand.


Comparing notes while sipping freshly cantered blood from golden goblets. ^^ The bat thing is adorable. And I can see the dance happening in the palace, I think it was you who posted Wyll's kiss with Astarion instead of Wyll in the other thread, no? That was cute too.

Wyll, Shart and Karlach's romances are overall not to my liking ... and you cannot even be grumpy at Karlach, when she wakes you in the middle of the night to tell you what she would like to do with/to you.


That's what I meant with early on. He also seems to remember the menu of the Elfsong 200 years ago and is confident enough in his skills as a Magistrate to offer Wyll his legal advice in Origin. (Come to think of it, O-Astarion and Wyll have some cute interactions. They also have a bit about what coming home feels like before entering BG.) In the scene linked, I think he is lying through his teeth, because he wants the Gur issue to be dropped - and the barrage of personal questions. He knows why they are looking for him and I am not even sure if he really believes that Cazador sent them. We also later learn that he has a very harsh, unforgiving sense of justice, when he discusses the topic with Wyll. So if it was really Gur who killed him, he probably knows why.

But at the graveyard he is more talking about his sense of self that is almost completely gone and I believe that. It's a person he was such a long time ago, after all, with such a different life.

But I wonder if many of the "cruel" things he approves of are poetic or ordinary justice to him. He disapproves if the kids get off lightly in the grove and likes it if you punish the Goblin, who tried make his hyena go into the Shadowcurse, by making him go instead. There's a few more of those.


Because she is cute and innocent and you are supposed to like her? I don't know. I could sooner see Shart and Karlach open a B&B for lost souls in the House of Hope too, but apparently unromanced Karlach and Wyll are a couple now. (Unless she meant "someone you love" in a friendly manner in the epilogue.) But, since the opportunity arises: I looked at the epilogue again yesterday and now everyone gets to see Karlach's Avernus ending, it got wedged in between the Morning-After-Dialogue and the Epilogue, where it beautifully breaks the mood and chronologically makes no sense. Poor Wyll got the Tav role and has zero agency, it's sad. He did her a good turn on the dock, he deserves some heroics too.


Whenever this topic comes up, I feel my moral judgement is somehow skewed. I had to make as save file of my early game for a bug report recently and I had him on 80 without killing Gandrel before entering the Shadow Curse ... and I felt I played like a good enough person. XD


Best write a ticket about it. There currently seem to be weird things going on with the subtitles too.


Asking him what he wants is also a good option but alas you have to pick one ....


That is a nice thought. It should be 100 years too late though, unless they had that book lying around for a very long time. The whole Shadowcurse thing went down 100 years ago, Astarion was turned 200 years ago and he was attacked on the streets, no taverns mentioned. The bit is linked in the video about his past above.

Wow, the comparison is really something. He does look like he ate lemons, lol. I think this deserves its own thread, these changes are nonsensical. First they censored his ascended romance scene, then brought back the steamiest part but still kept the whole body shot removed. They also modified his animation in the epilogue post-final battle and you cannot see his face as much anymore when he does his fantastic evil laugh - the camera jumps to Tav instead. Then they also altered him in act 1 romance scene during goblin party to make him look scared and worried. In patch 5 they also changed his behaviour when you're about to go with him spend the night together for the first time and he doesn't look as seductive anymore.

What's the goal here?


Indeed it is adorable! And yes, it was me. Astarion actually cannot be kissed in the palace, which is a shame.


Same. I don't like slow burns. I space out before Wyll even finishes his sentences and I don't know what he's talking about anymore. His flowery, convoluted speech is off-putting. I like SH but as a friend and Karlach had a good start but my interest in her as a character quickly fizzled out and eventually she started getting on my nerves.


He seems to like Arabella though. He's indifferent whether she's saved or not but in act 2 and 3 he's enthusiastic when he recognises her.


Ok, now you made me laugh with the B&B idea. ^^ Good I'll never see that ending in my game, because she's a MF choice fodder for me. She won't be in my pt after slaughtering the grove in my new playthrough either. She and Wyll seemed to be the closest so I guess it makes sense? Maybe they had a crush on each other but were too shy to act on it? And cute and sweet is not enough for me to like a character.

Changing animations literally brings pain sometimes.

Like what? The first one's okay.
The second. Honestly I interpret it as "admiration" and "adoration" at my new status as an Ascended Vampire.
But the old one was still better!
And three yes, the old is definitely better.
Larian, I know Astarion doesn't think highly of gurs and gnomes. I don't have to watch Astarion wrinkle his nose like one of the Malfoy family to realize that. That's enough. Seriously. I just love seeing his Lord smile, mocking at someone, and calm, soft too. Will I see them somewhere else, somewhere new? Just bring it back. The third change is too drastic. Especially since there's literally laughter in there.
I still think that if there's a villainous cartoonishness in Astarion in the "evil way", but he still has enough emotion, including really funny, even gentle emotion to be complex and endearing.

Please Larian, the person in charge of the animations is too fond of the "Evil Has a Bad Sense of Humor" trope.
Put the animations in the hands of someone who likes the "Affably Evil" trope, which Astarion tbh and "Even Evil Has Loved Ones".

Thank you so much for this wonderful selection! He is so handsome in the photo on the left, it's just something to copy and save, thank you!
His earlier facial expression is great and fits the situation perfectly. The mimicry with the "lemons" is not much different from other, less significant scenes where Astarion shows disgust (such as in the background when talking to the hag - from the last I remember). Option 2 is an outrage in general! Is he ashamed of being an Ascended Vampire?! Does it upset him?
Just one word - WHY?

P.S. Can I ask you, where did such a beautiful armor for Astarion come from? Is it a mod or is it somewhere in the game?

Good saying. It seems that Astarion was originally conceived and developed as an "evil character", but was later given an additional "good guy" twist. The unascended version of Astarion, in my opinion, seems somewhat secondary and less elaborate than the Ascended version. I suspect that players who had an affair with Astarion might have started "whining" and writing to the Larians asking them to "fix" him (this is just a "hypothesis", I haven't played the very early versions of the game, it would be interesting to find the opinion of those who have). Under this "hypothesis" fits why his "good ending" is so bad and the Larians aren't going to fix anything - it could be a "caustic spiel" to those who wanted a "good Astarion".

If Astarion won't talk about his past, we could find some written evidence or even meet some member of a long-lived race who knew Astarion - that would be really interesting. It's not even clear how old Astarion was when Kasador captured him - whether he was a serious member of the "corrupt elite", or a "young slacker" who was helped into a high position by "acquaintance". I imagine a hung-over Astarion trying to doze off during the prosecutor's speech, occasionally rubbing his temples when the prosecutor is too loudly demanding "capital punishment" for some Gurts, and wishing he could pass a "Guilty" verdict as soon as possible, just so that the prosecutor would finally shut up.....


Ha-ha! I almost fell off my chair laughing when I read this! Outrageous - what an ingrate Astarion is, he was given such a beautiful voice, and how does he behave after that? A very, very bad boy...


Yes, it's impossible not to enjoy him in these scenes... With Fenris they have something in common - both were in slavery, both are embittered, Fenris had his marks on his body too. Both are elves, by the way.


Yes, that would be "for real"... How I wish they had added the ability to hug Astarion more often in the game, especially since the animations for that are already there! As an extra opportunity for romantic interaction, or at the end of some dialogs. Such a scene - and only once in the entire game, and that's where another option seems more compelling...


Yeah, like "being quiet" would work with him I was somewhat surprised by the fact that there's no way you can tell your companions about your relationship with Astarion, even when they try to seduce you. Only the shrewd Shadowheart notices this, and tells Tav about it at the party. I liked her demeanor, she even offered Tav a drink for courage, just like a true friend.


Yes, as usual... After the dialog with Ascended Astarion in the camp before the intimate scene, when Tav has to sound like a sex-crazed nymphomaniac who helped Astarion just to sleep with him (because all other lines are not good at all), I don't expect any opportunities for "verbal expression" from the game. With a unascended Astarion the lack of opportunities to show love is more painful, because you suffer because of him, with an ascended one it's calmer, and you've already proved everything, and it doesn't really matter.


Is it a mini-dialog on the map, or in full dialog? (Maybe I just haven't gotten to that scene yet).

Yeah, I think that's the case too. We sorted out Gandrell somehow quickly, and during the conversation later, I genuinely believed Astarion Apparently, he "embellished reality" in his favor, which makes sense with his incredulity.


He doesn't always like gory scenes, for example, he reacts harshly to Malus Torm - the line is "He's insane! He's like Casador!". He often gives approvals for challenging a violent character (an aggressive conversation with Mizora in the camp when she came to punish Will, and a few others). He gives approval for helping allies (getting Lae'zel out of the zaith'isk in time).


Found the save - 97 after the fight with Orton, then some no approvals, 100 was definitely already chapter 3. I thought I was playing as a "good person" where it wasn't related to Astarion's well-being (I was clearly not the best person for Gandrel). Interesting to ask - does having Gandrel alive have any effect on the romance with Astarion? I have Astarion deciding to start a romance just after killing him, before any party. I also feel like Astarion would be unnerved by Gandrel's presence in the camp, is that true? Just curious about his reactions to that.


Thanks for the clarification!


Damn, really should create a separate topic! This is so infuriating...

"The camera jumps on Tav" - I've been specifically annoyed by this in many, many scenes with Astarion. And now also in the epilogue... No matter how much pleasure you had creating your own Tav, when they start shoving her in front of your eyes wherever they can (and, most importantly, completely unnecessary), not letting you look at the one you want to look at, your own character starts to piss you off....

And at the new playthrough the scene of Astarion's seduction won't be the same... Larians don't have time to fix the flaws and finish the unfinished quests, but they have time to make Astarion worse. Okay, the "good tale" with Astarion is impossible, get over it, let's make the scenes with Astarion worse - both with the Ascended and in the previous chapters.


Well said.

I don't mind the slow burn, but romance without friendship doesn't have any appeal to me. Karlach, Shart and Wyll just seem to have a desire to fill their romance slot without trying to connect with you otherwise.


Arabella is a dear. I tried to take her in as an apprentice with Gale, when Withers wants to send her away after discovering her parents' fate. It was the only time he got really angry at me - and angry Withers is much more creepy than Vlaakith. O.O


They could pin cute little bows on all of Raphael's portraits. It would be adorable - I am sure there are many pet-spirits Shart could look after. Also Duchess Lae'zel would be something! XD She'd have the Flaming Fist whipped into shape in no time. And cute is cute, but if the game shoves it too much in my face that I am supposed to care for someone, it just stops working - and it's never enough to make me really care in the first place. Edit: I think, it ends up being more pity than actual care or empathy. Innocence strangely does not pluck my heartstrings.


In the sense of approval? If you step out of the conversation as soon as Gandrel mentions Astarion, it has no effect at all. If you follow the conversation to the end and make all the covert vampire allusions and then step away, Astarion will be annoyed and you loose approval. Otherwise, you can get a bittersweet scene with him and his daughters in the sewers should both Gandrel and the spawn survive. He's pretty much a decent bloke, he just wants his children back and is otherwise surprisingly cool with Spawn-Astarion and the group once the Gur have understood that Astarion has is free will back.

And yes - I forgot to reply to that the last time - I much prefer origin characters as my player character because I want to care about my player character too. Blank slate Tav don't really do it for me.

Well said! This 3 examples/changes were only in 1 sentence of this cutscene. There were a lot more. Cartoonish, that’s the right word! I always called it „creepy“, when he behaves/looks odd, instead of acting evil. They shouldn’t make Astarion look so ridiculous cartoonish! The scene right after the Ascension and the scene after turning/or not turning Tav into a spawn are creepy/cartoonish enough in some of his facial expressions. No need to change facials expressions later in other scenes to make him look more ridiculous, otherwise, I assume, less player will play this route, when Astarion becomes rather insane than evil. Hard to describe it, but there are worlds in between some of his scenes after Ascension. Some are great (e.g. romance scene, post-fight Epilogue, new Epilogue), some are really cartoonish (mentioned above). And I guess he has the most ridiculous break-up scene („kick in the balls“) - for making fun of Astarion aka „the evil“, isn’t that already enough caricature and ridiculousness?)

Yes, they are changing more and more on Astarion, and some things are getting worse. Changing facials expressions / microexpressions afterwards can also change a whole atmosphere, such things must be done very, very carefully.

Yep, patch 5: „Made cinematic tweaks to restore sections of Astarion's Act III Ascendant sex scene.“ Everyone happily flew in to see their old romance scene back or being better, and then – censored even more. Hahaha. Someone is making fun of it, I am almost sure. Luckily, I have edited my own Version now.

If someone (maybe a native speaker) wants to make a summary of all these negative changes in an own thread, they can feel free to use my stuff also, or I can add it there.

Oh yes! I wish he could be like that, too, in some scenes. In the romance scene, after saying „no“ to his demand of kneeling down, it would have been greater and more realistic to be forced down by him. THAT would show he IS evil and dominant. But instead he breaks up. But! The reason seems to be very simple: They don‘t want to force the player into something! They do NOT want to show this type of cruelness. It would be too hard stuff. And also instead of letting Astarion be evil in his actions, someone decided to make him only say some mean things. ['In the Epilogue scene, when you cannot break up and he says: "You're mine!'" and "there is no backing out now" with that incredible mean laugher, that's really nice! At least here we can sense his evil side!]


Thank you! I am glad you like my Astarion as well Yes, it’s a mod, it’s from the basket full of equipment from nexusmods. I love that outfit on him, even if there is a bit clipping with the shoulder/neck thing in his cloak slot. This mod contains a lot of armour and worked out for me well.
Oh, if you liked my Astarion, Advertising for my YT is coming per pm, maybe you’re interested in.

I heard that in early access he was more evil. I saw a vid where he also had a super angry remark where he threatened Tav with death for disrespecting him. He doesn't even sound as furious when facing Cazador as he does there.

If someone wants to date a good character they should go for someone who fits the criteria, instead of the obviously evil one and then complaining that he's not a friendly person.


I would have loved some evidence of his past. Apparently on his grave it says he was 39 years old when he was turned and his surname is Ancunín.


Astarion also killed him during the bite night because of a nat 1 roll. He said it was totally worth dying for afterwards.


And have very similar hair colour.


Karlach and Lae'zel know too. Does he like to gossip with the ladies? It seems like Wyll and Gale are completely clueless.


These lines are atrocious and there is even a thread devoted to the topic.


Mini-dialogue when you walk around. For some reason a lot of these banters don't trigger.


There's a pool with healing water in there too so they could offer extra spa and massage services along with food and accommodation for the night


That is definitely there just for the lulz.


The kneeling seems to be some kind of test of his so I think it should stay the way it is. But there could be an additional dialogue to provoke him and he'd do it then. Imagine if they added an extra option when kneeling to get cold feet after his speech about what he'll do to you. In that moment if Tav tried to bail on him, he'd just keep them in place and bite them regardless. Now THAT would be evil. But I guess too many people would find it problematic. I love that laugh and 'you're mine!'. Real consequence of trying to mess with a vampire lord and making promises you can't or don't really want to keep.

And alas, I can't even adequately rate them because I'm too "obsessed by Astarion". But when I watched other romances on youtube, Gale's romance seemed to me the most beautiful of the others.


That's curious. I just came across the notion that Astarion comes to you and starts a romantic relationship after you kill Gandrell together. And in my game, that's how it coincided! And I was wondering, if you didn't kill Gandrel, the romance with Astarion still happens, but in this case already at the party or also before the party? Maybe it's just a coincidence, and killing just allows you to "finish" the approval to some level, after which Astarion can start the romance earlier.


Hmm, maybe this is how the developers are trying to lower "the attraction of evil"? Sounds like a "conspiracy theory" of course, and there are plenty of opportunities for the player themselves to do quite evil and creepy things in the game. Reduce the attractiveness of Astarion to players who are "seduced" by it? Sounds ridiculous, but damn, it's hard to explain the desire to intentionally degrade the image.


Yeah, I was pretty pissed off by the presence of that line/action in the scene. No adequate options for Astarion's dialog to explain what's going on to a player not ready for this scene, but "act for bastards" and ridiculousness - please, spelled out.


Do you make mods? Would really like to see your version.


Yes, additional dialog would have been wonderful. It would be especially interesting to see how Astarion would "dominate" a loving Tav who genuinely doesn't understand his humiliation theme, but instead of a simple "No" tries to express his feelings somehow, maybe even tears on her part or some questions, confessions, etc. Or would that be too cruel too? Or would that be too hard and realistic, hard to work out Astarion's reactions to that?

On the topic of forcing the player - they "don't want to force", but in fact they do. Only not by Astarion's behavior within the game, which would be interesting and realistic, but in a "metagame" way, through his own story. You don't help ascended, you get all the pain and suffering of the so-called "good ending" and a sad, vulnerable Astarion in the course of the game. Didn't kneel? The romance is broken - there's no point in playing any further. For me, there's only one option for any playthrough, and I'm perfectly happy with it, but the fact that the game itself forces the player to do so is beyond me.


Yes, interested, thank you!


That's interesting, turns out Astarion has already been made less evil in the main game. It's a shame such an original idea wasn't fully realized. Perhaps a "more evil" Astarion wouldn't have let himself be "convinced" to give up the Ascension, or would that have been too unrealistic and he was softened for the sake of this second option?


Where is this grave? (it's impossible to read anything in the graveyard scene). I have not yet passed with the Ascended to the end of the game, I missed a lot of things from frustration in the previous, unfinished passage with unascended, now I climb into every corner, maybe I have not reached it yet.


Awesome! I let Astarion "kill" myself, I didn't throw checks, I wanted to see what would happen and let the vampire finally eat properly It's funny that none of the companions (including Astarion) react to the corpse in the camp, they get up quietly, go to their places as if it's just as they should


Curious. I haven't had them say anything. True, Laezel tried to "start an affair" even before Astarion, and was already rejected, and Karlach never tried (though they write that there is a scene with her trying to start a relationship with Tav on her own). Maybe she just knew and kept quiet?


Oh, let's see if it still works - I'm taking Lae'zel a lot right now, she's made an awesome fighter.

So true! I think it would have also been nice to hear the narrator say something after the first 'no'. Like: 'You can feel his impatience and growing irritation, hear the subtle threat in his voice. This is not just an ordinary request, but an ultimatum.' This dialogue could use additions all around.


I suspect that's the case. Even with his softening I still find him agreeing to abandon the ritual flimsy. He spends half of the game scheming about stealing the power. He rebutts Tav every time they try to speak to his conscience. There is not even one time where he has doubts about wanting to ascend other than not being sure about all the details related to the ritual. He only feels a bit remorseful when he sees all the caged spawn for the first time but that's it. Then he gets convinced with one persuasion check that's not even persuasive but manipulative in tone. I think there should have been another check at the very least.

It just looks like they wanted to have every character have two possible paths but wrote him in a certain way (with ascension as the main, logical path), backed themselves into a corner, and it was too difficult a task to make it convincing when it came to the alternative. Ascension has a natural flow throughout and has foreshadowing while non-ascension feels forced, awkward, overly sappy and sad at the same time, underdeveloped and just there for the sake of choice. Instead of fixing it and rewriting it to make it better, they are trying to make the evil path less attractive.


It's only seen in that graveyard date cutscene. It's written in a language that people have translated.


Astarion says 'Oh no, something horrible has happened' or such. Bastard pretending that he's clueless.


Karlach didn't try anything with me but then still told me she'd been hearing about us. You can see all of them discussing your romance in the short, which shows what happens when you agree to start the romance during the party. https://www.youtube.com/shorts/xa-1bbAy49k
My theory is that when you sleep together earlier they hear you just like he brags about and then during the celebration if it's supposed to be your first time, he totally not innocently and accidentally slips that information through the tadpole so the others back off and know you're going to be his.


That's a cool option for Gale. I don't think I had it on my wizard Tav playthrough. I like his reaction when you ruin his party. Disposing of Tav like a boss.

I think it has something to do with the "not forcing the player" idea too because they have a moral dilemma at the core of the plot but don't use it when the time comes.

Astarion did not like bringing people back to Cazador, he makes that clear in a few places, but he couldn't do anything against it. The one time he tried to save someone backfired horribly for him. Still he feels somehow guilty for it but it's the past and it can't be helped. When we learn about the real price of the ritual and what actually happened to all the people he brought back to Cazador, this changes, he now can do something about it. It's a good, clear-cut moral dilemma: Does he take back everything that was taken from him (food, reflection, the sun ...) no matter the cost, or does he think that other victims have the same rights that he has? It's also the only revelation that makes him question his plans. I think it has been called choosing the vampiric or the "human" side in this thread. It's also a pretty good dilemma for someone who was a magistrate and it foreshadows how the game defines freedom - it's not just being free from control but also responsibility for one's actions.

However, when the time to make a decision comes, they make this the player's problem and not Astarion's. Your persuasion has nothing to do with the only thing that made Astarion waver. I assume, they guessed, that people might be apprehensive of letting a small town of vampires run wild and so they chopped it into two portions. So you don't have to let all the spawn loose, when you want "good" Astarion. It would be funny if by killing all the spawn in the cells, you killed all the spawn linked to the ritual - Astarion included. ^^ I mean, if you want to be morally righteous, be completely morally righteous, no? It's also why I really enjoyed not ascending with Origin-Astarion because at least dear, trusty Gale makes exactly this *his* argument against the ritual, the butcher's bill is too steep.


I don't know, it might be approval but it might also be linked to the scene. A lot of people seem to get his proposition after the Gandrel incident, I got mine at the party. But, I am sorry Astarion, I like Gandrel, he is not for killing. ^^


Oh! I was wondering if that was exclusive to Gale. I really liked it because I thought that he could probably relate to Arabella - I mean, he must have lost his father around the time he summoned Tara. It's "my parents" when he talks about wanting a kitten and afterwards it's only his mom who's in the picture.

It's a great dilemma indeed, but I find the psychological aspect even more fascinating. As remorseful as he feels about his unwilling actions, it seems to me that he's still more worried about what it means for him personally, and how it all makes him remember his years of anguish. He says looking at the spawn reminds him of his own pitiful state and he loathes that feeling of powerlessness. He desperately wants to leave his past behind. For the first time he has the freedom to do something about it. If he doesn't help the spawn, then he becomes complicit in Cazador's cruelty and can be likened to him. He hates him, but also doesn't want to be compared to him. It's a moment of realisation of his own darkness and capabilities. Does he accept or reject this side of himself? If he ascends and you call him a tyrant after becoming his spawn, he will agree ('Precisely!') and tell Tav that he's not ashamed. I remember hearing a line somewhere that to truly know oneself is to suffer pain from someone but to also inflict it on another. Also, that to truly love oneself and become whole is to embrace everything within, including the ugliest parts, which requires delving into one's deepest darkness first. It's a process of integrating the shadow self. Notice how when you approach Cazador, he calls Astarion imperfect. When you become a MF and AA breaks up with you, he will admit that you'd helped him achieve perfection.


I can only imagine the gargantuan mountain of salt this would create. xD


It's approval based. You need to reach 40 for him to proposition you.


I checked my savegame to be 100% sure and I didn't have that option, so it must be unique to Gale's origin.

And all the previous time (until he found out about the ritual) - he tries to get any power he can reach. Larvae, the book "Necromancy of Thay", even the idol of Silvanus he wants to steal in the druid grove (will definitely do this for him in the next playthrough, I wonder where it will lead). His wonderful scene with Tav's manipulation and "seduction by power". By the way, what I like most about this scene is the middle line, "How do we do this?". Astarion is "knocked off his posture", he obviously didn't expect such a turn, this speech is clearly not prepared, he has to improvise (this is where we find out that the "future lord" doesn't like to plan). In contrast to the reaction to the "good" line, when Tav refuses, he gives logical arguments (seemingly thought out in advance), the previous pose is retained, Astarion expected this and tries to "plant a seed of doubt" by manipulating the "good hero".


Yeah, that's what I had. I especially remember his response to "I just want you to be happy" - Astarion is briefly lost and thoughtful, and then explains to Tav that that's what will make him happy.


After replaying that scene, it seemed to me that Astarion was worried specifically about Sebastian, it was in the dialog with him, and near his cage Astarion has a truly anguished face, the Gurts children don't touch him like that.


Instead, Astarion gives his approval after this check, which makes it feel like the "right" choice. But after stabbing Kasador, he cries. Very bitterly. I can't believe these are "tears of purification", or that it's only related to his past. It has to do with his future too.


The two paths are really well shown and developed only by Shadowheart (if we omit the ugly behavior of Selune Shadowheart, which was discussed in the Halcyn thread). Gale makes a choice with the crown only at the end of the game (the choice to explode or not to explode cannot be called a choice, it's a manipulation of Mystra, and Gale himself doesn't want it at all). Will can kill Karlach and not get the horns, in which case he can sort of be accepted into Baldur's high society and become the heir to the Duke of Ravengard - that's probably the only more or less "evil" option for him, and he doesn't become "evil" anyway. With Mizora and saving his father, he doesn't want to decide at all, you just make the decision for him. Karlach - agonizing with how to save her for the players who love her, but where does she have two paths? Lae'zel- the only good option for her is the Orpheus path, I can't see how she can stay with Vlaakith. I think the "evil" Astarion, if that's what he was originally intended to be, might not be convinced, but would engage Tav in battle if he was denied the ritual.


The options for fixing it are just begging, they are in the player's eyes when you go through the game with a unascended, which is maddening, makes the player feel helpless and angry. "Crown", which glued in one of the patches on Tav's avatar is perceived as a mocking taunt - yeah, cool hero, only you can not do anything. Most obvious:

1) Daliria with her diary and description of her blood transfusion experiments. How could Tav even just let her go after that and not take her to her camp and continue her experiments? Very unrealistic, the first "roleplay breakdown" in the entire game (actually, with Astarion not ascended, roleplay breaks down very often). Until now, BG3 seemed to me the most realistic, most variable game in the history of gaming, which can only be compared in terms of variation directly to DnD itself.

2) Jaheira's "unfading body" ritual. This is much easier to implement than the first option, and besides, the whole story with her scroll looks like an unfinished work. Maybe they'll do it again, who knows, let's hope so! It can't be used in the game in any way, just dialog with Jahaira about it - that's all! If it would be possible to use this ritual on Astarion, if it could heal him, the only thing left would be to rewrite the disgusting "scene at the docks" - and that's it! The players are happy, the appeal of evil drops as the "good way" now becomes comfortable to play, Ascended Astarion is enjoyed by its connoisseurs, and the rest of the players - those who don't like it - no longer have such an incentive to change their worldview and "go to the dark side". With the Ascended Astarion, this ritual can be used for Carlach and save her this time (and how happy this would make Carlach's fans, I imagine). Jaheira even tells Karlach that "she's more worthy of it than anyone else", but to no avail... Zero. Why this is in the game, for what purpose, is unclear.

It is interesting to compare the reactions of the Ascended and the unascended Astarion - the lines are the same, but the facial expressions are different. The unascended one suffers a lot, his face is distorted by inner pain, the ascended one proudly holds his nose up. But the camera is on Astarion, you can look at him longer and notice that the Ascended Astarion is also overcome by gloomy thoughts, but obviously of a different kind - the corners of his mouth are slightly down, is he grieving? (About the victims, about Sebastian?) But it's as if he is trying to suppress it, to hide it, to hold back. Very realistic and lively animation transition after choosing the romantic line at this point - right from this position, Astarion smoothly transitions into the "You want to talk? That's very cute", the expression naturally changes, it's like he gets distracted from his thoughts and switches to you. It feels like you've lifted his spirits and helped distract him!

These two options could be workable, of course, but there are a lot of other options that come to mind, like "Why can't I demand from Raphael a cure for Astarion in exchange for the crown of Karsus?", "Why can't I trade this crown with any god that agrees to help me?", "Why can't I capture the brain without enslaving Astarion and use all the resources of the Absolute to find a cure?". This is already from the series of "the player's mind is going," except that in DnD such a thing could be performed, and it could lead to such consequences that 7000 spawns will seem like complete nonsense At this point, the player should realize that "you are no "good", but just a crazy "chaotic-Astarionist", and your "moral principles" have long smelled like a seven-day old corpse in the trunk of an old car abandoned somewhere on the Mexican border". And it's time to load up, ascend Astarion, and sleep well... Jokes are jokes, but the attractiveness of the path of evil is perfectly demonstrated precisely through the helplessness of good, and not just through the attractiveness of the Ascended Astarion.


Thank you! Actually, they should have subtitled it, but maybe it's on purpose, as a reward for "inquisitive" players.


Yeah, I must have played that scene too long ago (only patch 1 of the game came out then), then they added it. Then because of the lack of content, I thought it was a fiasco, I was greedy 200 coins for my resurrection (in the beginning of the game with gold is tight), I restarted and decided that Astarion will have time to eat before the second check I also did not have the line "You can drink my blood today if you want", which I saw in the videos of other players. Is this because I immediately agreed with Astarion on his offer to drink the blood of our enemies? There was also the line, "I don't mind feeding you sometimes". I didn't think about it at first, and then there was really nothing to feed him in the Shadow-Cursed Lands, thanks Vlaakith, at least the githyanki were attacking, most of the enemies in the Shadow-Cursed Lands are inedible.


Thanks, interesting! I had an romance before the party started, had another dialog with Astarion, which replaces his classic dialog at the party. He's very seductive in that dialog But no one discussed it, only SH noticed we were in a relationship.


Oh, that's very nice! For some reason, I had imagined that Astarion wanted to hide the relationship. Perhaps because of the line "You will belong to me, and I to you - but only for one night". It seemed to me that, having escaped slavery, he really valued his independence and personal boundaries. "Don't touch me" and "Keep your distance, darling." Doesn't want anyone, including me, to think I own him, so he keeps his distance. Otherwise, it was hard for me to realistically, within a roleplay, explain why I couldn't tell anyone about it. Astarion seemed to be watching and testing me while doing so, and I treated dialogues with companions when they hinted at anything resembling romance as walking through a minefield, wanting to prove my loyalty. When you don't read anything about the game, you can create some of your own, albeit flawed, opinions about the character, but it's also a very interesting experience.


You have the strongest and most reasoned position in favor of rejecting Ascension of anything I have previously read about it. This also explains the rare moments in Ascended Astarion's life when he seems to mourn the loss of this "human side". They are rare and pass quickly, but it gives his image a note of tragedy along the way as well.


Damn, indeed! The staff is linked to the marks on the bodies of the victims, Ascension is fine - it doesn't matter what's on the back of the one who takes the place of the master of the ritual, but if you kill all the spawn with the staff, then Astarion must die too! If you somehow make it so that you kill everyone except those wearing Astarion's mark, then there should be 999 spawns left, brought by Astarion. I guess the Larians just didn't think of that. But this option is the worst, it's "passable", just so it's "for choice". In this case, everything you wrote about in the previous abazatz loses its meaning. It's just making a mockery of Astarion. If the paladin doesn't want vampire spawns running through the sewers of the city, he can help Astarion ascended and justify it by saying that Astarion's powers will be useful in the battle against the most important evil, and this is the lesser evil, since the spawns will die anyway.


I read the guide - they say that the bite, the book and Gandrel's death are possible triggers for an early romance with Astarion (it worked naturally for me, interestingly enough). The bite is mandatory for an Astarion romance in general, the rest are just additional opportunities to raise approval and get Astarion early.

You will have different outcomes depending on whether you've dealt with Kagha or not before the theft.


He gets so flustered! Trying to be all evil but then becomes adorable instead. The most hilarious manipulation attempt is this one:



The way he looks down, hoping to look innocent and sympathetic.


He even laughs at them and gives a totally unapologetic explanation for bringing them to Cazador.


He's certainly mourning his future too. There's no way to get back what was lost.


For Karlach it's die or live - either as a MF or fighting in Avernus. Lae'zel certainly can and will stay with Vlaakith. Just in a very... grotesque way.


You mean the ritual in her secret cave? That one only slows down aging, no?


Haha, I thought about it when traversing the land and felt for him. Offered some extra compassionate evenings for snacking.


That scene is so fun! Shame you can't have it if you skip the grove. I really wish they made an alternative scene with companions throwing a small party before going to the Shadowlands so you don't miss out on camp content.


Well, I mean his for the night. He's acting all cool and casual but the man fights for your attention, is jealous and slightly possessive from the beginning. Early interactions from the top of my head:

If you pick him as the third person to approach during the first camp night he'll brood and not want to talk, because he's so hurt you're more interested in the others.
He also chastises you for not having high standards if you don't enjoy the night with Lae'zel. Could be a word play since he's a high elf.
When he asks who you'd bite if you could, he's low-key fishing for information who you're into.
He has very mocking lines if you romance someone else besides him. Like - he's the seducer incarnate and you're going for someone else? He can't stand it, lol.

And if you don't romance him he still complains about you making a mistake for not sleeping with him in act 3.

Him bragging about you being loud, talking to SH about hoping you like being dominated, saying you purr for him in front of others, enjoying the idea of Sharess' Caress writing horny fics about him and Durge show he likes the fact the others know. He only doesn't like to talk about feelings and vulnerabilities in front of others.

He says these cold lines, because he's a total cat. He LOVES the attention but if he's moody he'll show his claws and teeth. ^^ I remember seeing a video with his voice actor who admitted that when he was acting as Astarion he was inspired by a cat in his life who kept coming to him for food and I think it took 3 years until it allowed him to be petted.

I've been thinking about where Astarion's self-loathing comes from, "you're humiliating yourself by staying with him." Perhaps it was based on that hateful feeling of powerlessness. Even though he's ascended now, that feeling has been with him for too long - two hundred years. And his painful self-perception, his self-esteem issues may be based on that. His narcissism about his own appearance seems charming (I bring him to mirrors all the time), but this fixation on appearance is the flip side of his rejection of himself as a person. Even during the night with him after the Ascension, he presents his body as a reward (during the first night as a gift). Perhaps he despises himself for behaving like the hated Cazador. You have correctly pointed out that comparison with him is a sore subject.

Having given up the ritual Astarion realizes that he is better than Cazador, that he is the only one who could break the "vampire ouroboros". But everything else is the pathetic state of a spawn, powerless against many aspects of the world - sun, running water, hunger. Rejected by this world, he is "other", he is an "outcast", and "they" despise him. Which his ending vividly illustrates. He clings to Tav as the only one who cares about him, and the only one he cares about. But he can't escape the suspicion that she sees him the same way everyone else does, that she just feels sorry for him.

Ascended knows he's better than Cazador as a vampire, he destroyed Cazador and ascended. But morally, he did to the other spawn what he wanted Cazador to do to him. Perhaps that will stay with him forever. But now he is overwhelmed with power. Astarion's place in this world is a throne marked 'for the evil ones only', but it is the throne of the Vampire Lord.


I really enjoyed this. Realizing that the feelings Astarion is having right now are an important part of his self-determination process. But far from the final part.

Oh yes, thank you for that scene At the end just - immediately you want to do everything for him Once is not enough to review. The Larians invented the recipe for the perfect character: an intelligent villain with a complex character + sunshine and preciousness in one person.


Yes, yes, even the first time through and I was all nervous, I still couldn't help but laugh with his explanation


Yeah, but it's not just aging... I'm assuming it's some sort of super-regeneration. I'll rewatch the scene more closely, it was definitely safe. Maybe I'm wrong, maybe the first time I was too desperate for any healing option until I spoilered all the endings, and the second time I was too inattentive to go through the scene, I was looking at Astarion in the background and wanted to see the reaction after the Ascension I'll check. Maybe, really, it's just a scene, nothing special. But if they wanted to, they could make something special out of it too, I guess?


Yeah, I won't skip the grove anyway, I'll try a different way with Mintara, knockout or whatever, I need all the romance scenes first.


Oh, interesting his reactions. About who to bite - he liked it when I said I would bite him, complimented my good taste

I love his possessiveness. I'm a terrible possessive person myself With my Tav, they have a big question of who's trying harder to tie who down.

I didn't do well with Dark Urge - I'm ashamed to say. I bought the game and immediately went to play - I didn't read anything, I didn't look at it, let's go! I mistook Dark Urge for one of my companions, they all appear in the character creation editor. Thought, oh, that's funny, Baal's child as a companion. I created a regular Tav, went through the entire first chapter - there is no him anywhere. Then I didn't replay it, I wanted to go further in the story. And Dark Urge has special dialogs with Astarion, replicas... That video with replicas, which you discounted earlier, with such a voice, m-m-m... (I want to put the replicas on the alarm clock to wake up with pleasure ) And missed everything. In the second pass, of course, but it will be more interesting. But that's how careless players are sometimes


And that's why he loves kitty so much I hope he and Tav get a white kitty in the castle - Astarion Jr.

They sure did.

This talk of his funny manipulative tactics made me remember a hilarious Astarion with Gale and Durge Tav sketch that I just need to share. xD Slightly off-topic so I'll leave it in the spoiler.



I said it too. And then actually did it after becoming his spawn. If my Tav was his first, then he needed to be her first too.


With my Tav I imagine a lot of possessive interactions behind the scenes. ^^


You mean the assistance from Astarion vid? They're amazing! I wish they fixed them.

I also heard of people starting to play as the default Durge, not realising that the chara is customisable.


Funny you should mention that because my Tav was running around with a cat familiar for a while. Every self-respecting wizard needs their cat (or cat-like pet). Plenty of space for it in the palace. Since he mentions being able to hear animals and having the ability to make them obey, I think he might also learn how to properly communicate with them (as a new power) and use them as spies, like Jaheira does. There are actually many cats in the city, he could enthrall them and have a kitty spy network, haha.