Larian Studios Forums Baldur's Gate III Baldur's Gate III - Story & Character Discussion My Pitch for Revamping the Emperor's Storyline (Many spoilers)

It's sad that the forum bugs and the IGN interview have damped participation on this thread because I think it's a very good suggestion. Let's hope people give it a fresh read when the forums get an upgrade and/or when Larian announces it's working on a definitive edition or a directors cut.

And, again, I do sincerely appreciate that some who likes the emperor is acknowledging the flaws of story and proposing a solution that should please fans of both interpretations.


I think that's right. We are like his old dog. To be cherished and even indulged but not to be entrusted with decision making abilities. I mean we don't ask Scratch's for advice, do we?
I know some fans of the emperor explain away the fact that you involuntarily put on the emperor's dog collar when you click on it but we seen have patch after patch and that "bug" hasn't been fixed. It's intentional: we are the emperor's pet and his sword arm.

Note that the dog collar is repeatedly used in the game as a symbol of a D/s relationship, we see when we visit the boudoir of the stern librarian. Also note how the priest of the goddess of torture has been represented as a devotee of the goddess of sexy fun. And consider the first Lae'zel sex scene. Someone at Larian is into D/s erotica. (and, yes, any revisions should please those who like the emperor because they like monster hentai)

But I don't enjoy being treated like a dog. I get my thrills in different ways: my kink is killing end bosses who have manipulating us throughout the game. Raphael satisfies that felt need, The Emperor doesn't.

(Note that Raphael, like the emperor, protects and provides and he's as much of an ally as is the mind flayer. Korilla saves us from priestess Gut and she warns of us difficult fights in the show cursed lands. Raphael also wants to kill the Absolute and end the Grand Design. He fits into the same slot that The Emperor is occupying )


While I see him differently there's something to that. I would like his domination and torture of Stelmane to revealed in a different way. The party should be rewarded for finding all the clues and be able to force the reveal outside of the thwarted sex scene.

Perhaps we could learn how to use the planecaster so we could travel to the pocket plane and force a confrontation?

Incidentally I REALLY do not want to learn how Stelmane learned to like her collar. Again, not my kink.

The details of Stelmane's 'stroke' :

This guy gets it.

This might be an odd take, but I didn't feel the Emperor was interested in sex with the player, but that the Emperor - much like Withers - thought that all mortal beings are most interested in romance, so it uses a romance speed-run to reel the player in when the situation starts to become serious. The Emperor's attempt at seduction mimics the development of the PC's romance with their chosen companion, without properly understanding the emotions tied it. It observed how we started to trust our chosen companion as they reveal things about themselves, their past, things they like and eventually fall for each other. Its house tour and the conversation about Stelmane have elements of this but they are fake, it never cared for Stelmane and the things it shows us during the house tour is basically trash. Even if the objects had sentimental value during its human life, they are just random objects now.

For me, this all seemed like an (hilariously bad) attempt to win over a PC who had previously rejected the Astral Tadpole and overall tried to keep the Emperor at arm's length.

I second that I would like a second path to discover the truth about Stelmane because the only way to currently uncover the truth - being incredibly rude to the being that holds the wellbeing of your party in its grasp - is just plain stupid and I was surprised that it did not end with some kind of power display from the Emperor. I was also disappointed, that I could not talk about the revelation with my companions.

I would also like it if the friendship with or among the companions would factor in how well the group can resist the Emperor. The book about defending against illithid influence especially states how important close friends are, so it would be nice if this information had relevance.


Concerning Orpheus. While I think that the current mind flayer transformation is odd, Orpheus handing over the reins of the rebellion to Lae'zel, is essential for a good ending - especially for a good githyanki ending. With Orpheus alive and in charge the githyanki will never be truly free, they will just replace a Lich-Queen with a Mythical Prince. In a game in which freedom equals the option but also the plight of making your own choices, this blind obedience cannot be a good ending. In Orpheus's case, this either has to come through him telling his people that they are strong enough on their own (the current route) or Voss and Lae'zel have to realise that they do not need Orpheus in some other manner. Maybe he does not have to die but he has to be removed from the pedestal the rebels currently have him placed on.

Well idk, the only person that could defeat Vlaakith is Orpheus, which is something the game keeps reinforcing through Voss/Lae'zel.
And I'd agree with that because Orpheus is the only one that could be used to get a sizeable amount of Gith to rally around, and by comparison, Lae'zel is a nobody and Voss, while a very well known Kith'rak, is still one of many (hundreds maybe?), and for them to say that they are the chosens of Orpheus, it's just their word vs Vlaakith in that case, no?
But also if Orpheus sacrifices himself in the end, they've lost the war vs the "Grand Design", given that he's, seemingly, the only one that can prevent the Grand Design.
(Although Larian seems to think that killing 1 Eldar Brain is enough to prevent it completely..?)

The other thing I was thinking about Orpheus is, I don't think it makes much sense that he would be willing to become a Mindflayer in the first place.
Given that he's the son of Gith, he knows he is the only one that could save his people against Vlaakith (and any future Mindflayer attempts at fulfilling the Grand Design).
(And then there is his personal thoughts on Mindflayers in the original post)

While he needs help our help in defeating the Brain, he is also the one thats preventing our conversion.
He could just easily force you to convert and there would be nothing you could do; Kill him and its Game Over, for both the world and the game.
I suppose a companion could take your place, if they had high affinity, or for story reasons like Karlach.
But I imagine it would be pretty unpopular if your were forced to sacrifice yourself/companion no matter what, so they allowed Orpheus to deus ex himself instead (even tho they could just remove the requirement instead)

The nice thing is, they think that they need Orpheus for the rebellion, but they don't. If Orpheus sacrifices himself, Lae'zel and Voss lead a perfectly good revolution without him. I like this much better because instead of blindly following some prophet, the rebellion grows because other githyanki can be convinced to their cause. It would be nicer if Orpheus didn't have to die for this - poor guy had a rough couple of centuries - but I do prefer to have the rebellion led by ordinary githyanki, as this fits better with the overall theme of the story.

I think Orpheus being alive is the better outcome. Voss is shown to be ruthlessly evil, as most githyanki are, and Lae'zel is problematic. When I've played a gith, my character refused to go with them to fight Vlaakith, and Lae'zel showed no understanding towards that (after all the support my character has given her on her quest). Whereas Orpheus said - I don't recall the exact words - that one cannot claim fight for freedom without respecting the freedom of refusal. So I'd rather have him as the leader of the opposition forces than Lae'zel.

If the githyanki are truly to change from the supremacist invaders they currently are, they'd need a leader that facilitates that change. I don't recall anything in Lae'zel questline where you can address the supremacist invader part; she turns away from Vlaakith, because she feels personally betrayed by her. But she still expects a fellow gith to fall in line and follow her.

Lae'zel has a very strong group mentality, so I can understand why she wouldn't be very understanding of someone not choosing to help their allies. I am overall very pleased with her during the epilogue. She also talks about how her son (the egg from the creche) will be able to choose whatever future he wants to have for himself, that does not sound very domineering to me, neither does her plan to return to Faerûn to be with her friends once more after Vlaakith is disposed of.

But that's probably all leading away from the point of this threat. Just in general I prefer an option for the githyanki to decide their own fate without a mythical figure they blindly follow - no matter if that mythical figure is a nice guy or not.

I did not have the impression that it was group mentality, rather, that it is a fight about dominance with her, when playing a githyanki. Which is in character, their society is based on plunder and subjugation of what they consider lesser races (so about everyone). When Lae'zel intimidates Zorru, when Voss kills the people on the bridge, when you explore the remains of the Lathander monastery where they murdered the monks, that is typical githyanki. And these are not points you can address with Lae'zel. Instead her turning away from Vlaakith is posed as a question of loyalty. Vlaakith is not loyal to her, so she will not be loyal to Vlaakith.

And I'd say Lae'zel follows Orpheus blindly from the beginning. She makes the decision to join Voss at the point where you have learned next to nothing about him, simply because of her hatred towards Vlaakith. And she continues so regardless of whether Orpheus lives or dies. Voss at least can claim to have known him, but as he is shown as your typical evil githyanki warlord, that is not exactly a stellar recommendation. Which is also why my character was prepared to kill Orpheus should the need arise, after freeing him. But she was willing to talk to him, and ended up giving him a chance.

On a side note, when I've played that character there were no epilogues. But I have to admit, it would bother me if the githyanki egg always ends up Lae'zel son, because she was in the party in the creche, and I don't recall her helping to save the it. Perhaps they added an interaction, but back then I did not have an impression she cared. I don't think she even reacts if you give the egg to Esther (?).

I agree with @anska on the dialogues. I did like Lae'zel new ending quite a bit. With her making diplomatic inroads with the Githzeri it sounds like: a) she has really grown as character. She even complimented me for teaching her the value of diplomacy b) it sounds like the new society will be militaristic and rigid. But more humane. And that's nice.

But, like the OP, I don't want to think that Lae'zel new empire will be destroyed by the illithids. There are other elder brains out there - including one that was probably the model for the netherbrain. A Netherese arcanist who became an elder brain . . .

For all the horrors of Vlaakith's Gith, for all innocents killed in the monastery, the Gith are the force preventing the rise of the new illthid empire.

More than anything I want a no illthid solution to the end game but if I can't have have Orpheus should be able to turn over his power to Lae'zel. That could either be Orpheus' last act before suicide or Orpheus could decide to step down from office and become Lae'zel's seneschal much like Withers did when he game up his position as the lord of murder, tyranny and the undead.

..., but we should have enough wisdom.
high intellegence never means excellence wisdom.(i have to regret to say, gale is one of the example :D)

this is, why withers or the one behind withers ask tav "the value of mortals" and doesn't ask emperor.

and i do think yes, we should gain more "resource -- a favor from the God of the gods" from this game setter to insight and counterattack emperor.

since i never think emperor with enough qualifications to face tav in the final.

i think the original setting -- dream lover, should be better than emperor, not only emperor's origin setting with heavy burden but also many issues, make act 3 out of place from act 1 and act2.
no matter dream lover or emperor, we should gain the opportunity to counter/control him/her in act 3 beginning, then deal other things.
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replenish --
why the one behind withers doesn't ask the gods the value of mortals.
because this view only can be seen from a mortal who is somehow a chosen yet pass the trial of the God of the gods.

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by the way talking, i can see your talking recommend the act 3 rewriting.
to me, even more, such as tav should gain dialog option stoping lae'zel' foolish loyalty strongly after using the githyanki machine and make plenty thought detecting to the medical officer.
but the screenwriter just acquiesces lae'zel' foolish loyalty and suggests tav following her, this makes tav as a fool, then the screenwriter just says somehow tave needn't die?? and giving you a sugar for comfort --the blood of lathandar, the weapon is just a tool for me, and just means tav's low wisdom.

the whole game is just as you said, tav is a pet of emperor, and sadly this designs by the screenwriter deliberately.
this should be the true reason that some player stop continue act 3 somewhere and unwilling play to the final.

Which showcases the issue with the writing; that you need to look to the epilogue to see a change. But at the time of making the decision in the game you don't know any of that. (And when I've played my gith character, there was no epilogue.) So where does this change come from? There are some very blink-and-you'll miss it references regarding Orpheus himself. But Voss is certainly no indicator of change. Maybe it is different when romancing Laezel. But playing the non-romance route, there wasn't any discussions on how wrong the current state of the githyanki society is, not simply because Vlaakith rules it, but because they raid, murder and enslave others, and are convinced that it is their right.

It's an example of how disjointed the writing gets after act two; it's almost as the epilogue refers to content that was originally planned for the githyanki questline, but is not actually in the game anymore.

As for the no illithid solutions, currently there is only Gale detonating the orb. But the dialogue leading to that in act three is nonsensical.

The orb dialogue is very idiotic. On the one hand they are heavily pushing you to it (even after deciding against it with Gale, you are offered the option several more times) while on the other hand obscuring the option to choose detonation as an alternative to someone becoming a mind flayer.

I felt there was a change in Lae'zel even without epilogue or romance because she starts making jokes, and overall expresses appreciation for the player group. There also is/was some banter with her about not condoning the culling of the weak in Act 3, but I am unsure if that made it into the game or is just a sourced file.

I guess, I better put the egg thing in the spoilers:

But yes, act 3 could at the least do with some more banter or camp scenes related to character development. Even with Gale, you only find out how deeply terrified he is of loosing the battle against the brain, if you have to talk him down from exploding at the Brain Stem - outside of this, the sentiment is mostly present in his reactions to a few of the more questionable decisions the PC can make.

Well, I was playing a gith, so Laezel didn't explain anything, or even comment on it. My character was bravely carrying the egg everywhere.

But yes, Gale's dialogue makes no sense, I think they just added it for another 'optional' ending. Which is why he is able to suddenly remember that group teleport spell last minute.

The Egg and a Runepowder Bomb all wrapped together along with some sharp objects and some squishy bits of clown in one neat backpack!

I also think that the endgame dialogue flow is slightly buggy. Last time I wanted to squid Karlach because I was on Spawn-Astarion. When the Emperor presented us with a choice, I declined Gale's offer and accepted Karlach's. After freeing Orpheus the dialogue with him offered me to volunteer Gale but had no line about Karlach. To squid Karlach, I had to volunteer myself, which then again prompted the (same) discussion with Karlach resulting in her ceremorphosis. At the brainstem I then had a long discussion with Gale about how it would be saver for everyone to explode him instead of taking up the fight against the brain together. Which might be attributed to fear, but still came out of nowhere - especially following the previous discussion.

By comparison, when I directly freed Orpheus and made him change, the game gave me intrusive thoughts about the bomb being an option at the brainstem and Gale was very happy to not use it. It's so weird. I wonder how much more buggy it would get if we could ask Omeluum to help us out.

This info is wild! No wonder he chose her; she is like him in a certain way. But I'm curious, "Since she awakened, her mind has been a constant battleground between her own psyche and the illithid—except […]" did he never succeed in fully enthraling her because of her exceptionally strong mind, because he didn't have enough energy to conduct the ritual to its end, or/and because he didn't really wish to erase her personality?

The portrait of Stelmane is a generic picture, there's no bed, no chest with very confidential maps or documents, no Qualith tablets or illithid magic stuff. I am unsure whether the hideout's design has been rushed or if the actual private room is intentionally absent.


We cannot directly confront the Emperor about his business partner, but he has already expressed his sentiments through a previous dream. I believe he truly 'cared' for Stelmane as she was his main tool for a decade. All the things he says about her should represent a genuine side of the coin, as he simply avoids acknowledging the dark aspects of their relationship (which is monstrous from a human perspective. Especially if the enthrallment procedure provokes an unavoidable stroke followed by permanent damage, worsening with: "Nor has she found a way to break its grip on her sufficiently to signal for aid.")

This scene doesn't work for the Tav who never treated him as a human. Dev tried to adapt some dialogue lines, but for me it's clearly designed for players who resist the astral tadpole rather than to create an emotional bond and gain their loyalty or to push the half-illithid Tav to desire to achieve transformation.

Speaking of bond, why doesn't the emperor keep his human/illithid 'lover' at the end of the adventure? Shouldn't these Tav be forced to follow him anyway?

I think, except for Shadowheart, the companion stories are cut content to some extent. Gale detonating the orb in act three doesn't explain why everyone gets cured of the tadpole (and partial illithid transformation), when Gale detonating the orb in act two causes everyone to turn into mind flayers. Considering his quest book talks about three items of Karsus: orb, crown and scepter, I'd guess that originally these were supposed to be combined into some powerful magical item. And Gale's quest was about getting the orb out of his chest.

Because he's a mindflayer without human emotions and you've fulfilled your purpose.

I have wondered if the sceptre was originally intended to be the staff which you can find in the House of Hope. From the description in the annals it sounds like you would need all three objects to use them for the intended purpose, so Raphael only wanting one seems a little odd. If he instead had already owned the sceptre and then offered to take Gale's orb out in exchange for the Crown it would have offered a much rounder picture.

It's quite funny that you mention that, because in EA, if you refused to give Gale any magical items, he would make a secret deal with Raphael that took care of his magical hunger problem. I don't think Raphael removed the orb, but he seemed to be able to control it somehow.

I wonder if, if this whole Regalia of Karsus thing had been an actual thing, then Larian scrubbed it because it would make Gale too important? After all, you can let him die right at the start of the game. Then all the Karsus stuff just... doesn't make sense or matter.