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apprentice
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OP
apprentice
Joined: Dec 2023
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My Pitch for Revamping the Emperor's Storyline (Many spoilers)Okay, now that I've found myself putting my thoughts about the Emperor's storyline in multiple threads, I figured it was time to make a thread of my own, putting together my pitch for some revisions to the Emperor's storyline and the game's finale, primarily looking at Act 3 but with some loose sketches of what could be done in earlier acts to integrate and lead up to it. I highly doubt this full pitch would be practical to implement at this stage, but some smaller pieces of it might be. At this point, I'm not sure whether to put this in the Story & Character Discussion or the Suggestions & Feedback area, so I guess let me know if I should move it (not that I know how). Spoiler blocks partly to break things up. This is a long post. My assessment of the Emperor's story:
I'll start by saying that I like some of the archetypes the Emperor draws from and enjoyed some individual moments with them, but on the whole, I was a bit disappointed.
As it stands, the Emperor really feels like the product of a couple interesting character ideas that were spliced together at a later stage of writing and didn't have time to be fully fleshed out and explored. I've read enough to know that the Dream Guardian was initially a very different character, in personality at the very least, and the sudden switch to presenting themselves as the Emperor in Act 3 currently seems jarring. In Act 3, the character seems to have low reactivity to any previous interactions you've had with them, and no real character arc or branches in the way that your party companions do, despite being a character that has been with you since the start of the game in one form or another. They also have almost no chances to have any meaningful impact on how the story unfolds, which might be partly because of old concepts about who the character was and what powers they might have, and partly because you're stuck with them and there's a fine balance to strike between letting an NPC impact the story without stepping on the player's agency.
A number of characters in the game, like Raphael, express the idea that the party is expected to dislike the Emperor and to see him as being manipulative and abusive. On the other hand, there is a romance path with this character, as well as a number of scenes deliberately designed to make him seem sympathetic. While each player will obviously have their own feelings about the character, this setup makes me feel like the game itself should have some sort of branching path -- so that those who want to rebel against their manipulator getting a satisfying confrontation with him, but also so that those who sympathized with this character and wanted to reach out to him feel like they got a satisfying story, too.
Personally, I would enjoy both storylines. I would enjoy overthrowing a controlling villain who's been interfering with my team. I would enjoy building a friendship with a former hero struggling with the loss of their humanity. What I don't enjoy is a story that straddles the two, seemingly never committing to whether this was a villain or an antihero, and ultimately making it feel like nothing meaningful occurred. My suggestions are going to be aimed at fleshing out these paths, with the payoff during the final interactions between the Emperor and Orpheus.
While I also have criticisms about how Orpheus seemingly came out of nowhere in this plot, I'm not going to be addressing that, frankly. We'll take it as a given that he's trapped in the Astral Prism, that the hammer is needed to free him, and that the need to bring Orpheus's power out of the Astral Prism to fight the Netherbrain is required. I want to keep my suggested changes as close to the existing framework as possible.
Some of these are changes, some of these are merely me stating my interpretations of what information I've found on the character.
First, I don't think that the Emperor should be Balduran. I don't think that this adds anything to the character, and I believe it actually detracts from the "I was an adventurer, just like you" presentation that was initially given. I don't know that the Emperor delivers on feeling like someone whose footsteps the player might be following, but I do know that as soon as the Emperor is revealed to be Balduran, the identity of "founder of Baldur's Gate" completely usurps any other concept of who this character was pre-illithid, and it adds nothing. Balduran is not significant to the story of BG3, and finding out that he became an illithid after his final voyage does nothing good to Balduran's own story. I think the Emperor should simply be an unnamed adventurer whose original appearance is the one we see as the Dream Visitor.
*As a note, I would personally try to find some other name for this character other than the Emperor, to reflect the genderless illithid and player-designed original form of the character. But that's minor, and it is a nickname, anyway.
Regarding their pre-illithid life, I would make the Emperor be an adventurer who had been exploring around Moonrise. Depending on how much time and thought can be spared for it, I would also be tempted to have aspects of the Emperor's early life mirror that of the player character -- for example, their Class and Background details. If the player was a Guild Artisan, the Emperor may mention having worked as an artisan; if the player was a Soldier, they may mention having previously been a soldier, etc. Their story is that were captured by mindflayers and infected. Their party attempted to rescue them and escape the colony. Their party did not survive the ordeal, but the Emperor continued trying to make their way back to Baldur's Gate, eventually transforming before they could make it home. However, miles from the colony, they were outside the influence of the elder brain -- an independent mindflayer. Rather than turn back, they chose to continue to Baldur's Gate.
Now that the Emperor is an illithid, we return to the existing backstory of the character. While trying to figure out what to do with themselves, they began feeding on criminals, which eventually put them on the path to collide with Duke Stelmane and the Knights of the Shield. I imagine that the Emperor happened to kill some of Stelmane's enemies, or perhaps to end up in combat with them, leading to these two finding themselves on the same side. The Emperor's primary interest at the time was self-preservation and perhaps starting to accumulate wealth and security, while Stelmane saw the opportunity in having a mindflayer as one of her enforcers, especially once that seemed somewhat inclined to be reasonable. The two initially got along well, with the Emperor's position in the Knights of the Shield rising as they advised Stelmane and learned to control psychic powers, allowing them to mask their appearance and manipulate others.
This is when Gortash and his ambitions enter the picture. His operation is becoming a threat to the Knights of the Shield. The Emperor and Stelmane start to have arguments about how to deal with it. The Emperor, prioritizing their own survival over all else, advocated for harsher measures. Perhaps it was excessive use of their psychic influence on others. Perhaps it put too many innocents in harm's way for Stelmane's tastes. Whatever the case, she refused. Frustrated, the Emperor decided to use their psychic powers to take control of Stelmane and do what they thought needed to be done for the sake of the Knights of the Shield, intending to release her afterwards. But in the struggle, Stelmane's mind was permanently damaged, and there was no taking that back. The Emperor then found themselves alone and in control, just in time to be defeated by Gortash.
How exactly Gortash managed this isn't clear. It seems that he picked up on the fact that the Emperor was a mindflayer from their use of their powers on their clients, but not how he managed to outmaneuver the Emperor. I have no specific ideas to put forward for that, but I think it could be an interesting point to develop about how Gortash himself operates.
When talking to the Dream Visitor, we can sometimes see glimpses of their vague battle inside the Astral Prism. Currently, this is against githyanki trying to free Orpheus, but unless more is done to flesh out Orpheus's role in the main story, I'd be inclined to change this.
The Emperor is engaged in a psychic battle with the Absolute. This is also the basis for why the Emperor keeps pushing the player to consume tadpoles -- in order to assist them with this battle, the player must have greater psychic powers of their own, which none of the party have developed. The Emperor is hoping to improve their own survival chances by having someone else to support them in this effort, especially since the Emperor's attention is currently divided between Orpheus and the Absolute.
(It may be possible to have a similar effect if the Emperor is simply struggling to psychically restrain all the githyanki that they are dealing with, although they obviously wouldn't say that out loud).
I personally had a pet idea of making it so that lacking the Emperor's protection, or lapses in their protection, would result in the party being "ambushed" during their long rests -- these battles take place in the dream world, but they force the party to expend spell slots, health, etc. to symbolize the struggle of resisting the Absolute. However, with a tadpole'd party member and the Emperor in good health, these events become less likely to occur. (Think of the chance of being ambushed by random enemies when camping away from inns in older games -- it's simply a chance to have a rest interrupted, not that unheard of in D&D tradition).
Now we're getting into the idea I put forward in the earlier Emps and Orphs thread. Mainly, the Emperor's arc hinges on the idea of whether they trust the party (and respect the party's decision-making) or whether they distrust the party (and are inclined to try to manipulate and assert control over them). Our themes here are basically trust, control, and leadership, which I believe fit with the narrative the game has presented.
As a general background for this section, I found that one of the most compelling interactions I had regarding the Emperor was during Jaheira's quest to rescue Minsc. Jaheira wanted to save Minsc by knocking him out, and I put in the effort to make sure to keep him alive. But the Emperor nearly refused to extend the Astral Prism's protection to Minsc, requiring multiple rounds of advocating for it by both the player character and Jaheira threatening to throw the Emperor into a volcano. And the fact that there was an actual possibility of not persuading him here (by choosing to concede) made it one of the few times that it felt like the Emperor's threats had any teeth to it (I'll talk about this more re:Orphic Hammer). I'd like to see more interactions like that, though not always as extreme.
Throughout the game, I would have the Emperor do a mix of two things:
1) Advise the player on how to run their party and discussing the subject with them
2) Meddle with the party's course of action, effectively challenging the player's control of their party
The intent here is not quite to actually be a serious threat to the player's choices, but to give the illusion of a threat, and to make the METHOD of exerting control over your own party be an important part of the Trust/Distrust dichotomy. The debate with the Emperor is essentially that of how to lead and direct your party -- the Emperor advocates for manipulation and overriding the agency of others, while you can choose to advocate for diplomacy, respect, and compassion; but how you treat the Emperor is an important part of that, as well -- you don't get to try to preach about listening to others but then constantly take the Intimidation path with the Emperor himself without it leading to a fight later on. Where the Emperor falls on the Trust / Distrust spectrum is the product of the player's own "leadership style" -- either a hard-earned ally, or an enemy of their own making.
Generally speaking, earning the Emperor's trust comes from dialogue choices that show an open-mind towards mindflayers, acknowledge the Emperor's desire for safety, and can appeal to logic rather than morality. Losing the Emperor's trust comes from options that resolve disputes with them via intimidation or force.
For example, when discussing the Orphic Hammer:
- Trust-path solutions might include reassuring the Emperor that the player does not see freeing Orpheus and killing the Emperor as intrinsically linked (attentive the Emperor's concerns); or pushing for the pragmatic idea that having the hammer around may be useful later and shouldn't be ignored just because it makes the Emperor nervous (logic-based)
- Distrust-path solutions would be based on simply telling the Emperor that since they're dependent on the party, they have to go along with this (intimidation); or options that involve resisting the Emperor's psychic attempts to interfere (by force)
I'd also like to note that submitting to the Emperor's demands every time a conflict arises is NOT the same as choosing the "Trust" path -- this is not about whether the Emperor likes the action you're taking, but whether you're challenging his mindset about how a party should be run. I'd probably make most options that concede to the Emperor simply be neutral; he has not changed his opinions in any way.
While I don't know the exact mechanics of what's going on in the Astral Prism, I am going to say that the Emperor can exert their own psychic influence over anyone in the range of their protection, meaning that they can meddle with nearby NPCs, although they are subject to the party carrying them around. This is to give them some ability to back up their threats, as well as possibly offering some tangible assistance in certain scenarios. In most cases where the Emperor is going to interfere, I would attach a short dialogue with them (as seen in the case where they talk to you after Raphael proposes his deal) that can either persuade them not to interfere (or to be helpful), or call them out on having done so.
For examples of behavior they might demonstrate:
- Manipulating NPCs to avoid answering certain questions, such as if the player tries to talk about the Astral Prism or Dream Visitor to NPCs who have no business knowing (for example, trying to bring it up to druids at the grove, anyone at the goblin camp, etc). These might be unavoidable, but the player has the chance to yell at the Dream Visitor over it
- Alternatively, forcing the player to make saving throws in order to speak of certain things, like when telling the githyanki about having the astral prism (these can be the weak DC 5 checks; the point is just to create the feeling of interference)
- Manipulating the actions of anyone in their range, and not just those branded by the Absolute. This can be a chance for the Dream Visitor to show their support of certain courses of actions by manipulating guards, etc. to allow the players to proceed more easily.
- Threatening to expel companions from their protection
Act 1 -- Opinions and Advice
Although the Emperor may not be willing to break with the party over their decisions, they should still have more opinions about how the party decides to resolve various quests, and rather than just saying lines that the player can't respond to, I would like to see some actual discussions here.
The pattern I would like is for the Emperor to talk to the player before a major decision is made, both offering the Emperor's preferred path and then asking the player to state their intended path. The Emperor need not interfere just because they disagree, especially early on. But then after the decision is made, I would also like to see the Emperor comment on whether the player did as they said they would do, and whether they stand by that decision. And I see no reason to have the awkward delay waiting for long rest dream sequences with the character for all of these; they clearly demonstrate the ability to communicate telepathically whenever they please in later acts.
For example, if a player chose to defend the Grove and had said they were interested in protecting people, the Emperor may comment on how many goblins had to be killed in that fight, and whether this bothers the player.
The companion quests may also be the subject of conversation -- particular in Act 1, I think the Emperor could comment to the player character about the company they keep, rather than talking to any of the companions directly (saving that for later). The Emperor should voice their suspicions about every party member, generally warning the player to watch their back and make sure to keep everyone in line, and other advice one might imagine a manipulative sociopath giving when it comes to controlling their minions. Effectively, the Emperor is trying to use the player as their proxy, since they cannot lead the party themselves (they may even cite anecdotes from their former adventuring party as part of their advice). Not all of their commentary needs to be wrong -- particularly when it comes to knowing each companion's motivations and insecurities, I would expect the mindflayer to be spot on, just in an exploitative way.
Act 2 -- Tempting the Party Members
Playing off the way the Dream Visitor is presented as trying to tempt us to take power, I think I'd like to see cases of the Emperor talking to other companions and providing discussions and debates for the player to weigh in on (loosely echoing some of the intentions with Daisy, I think). I think Act 2 would be a prime location for some of these, as the story otherwise feels a bit narrow, and the feeling of one of your main conversation partners being the voice in your head would fit nicely with that while still fleshing things out a bit more. I would aim for the Emperor to encourage the "ascension" path when available, but keeping the Emperor's own personal interests in mind, too. Some ideas:
- After Gale receives the visit from Elminster, Gale can be seen talking to the Emperor. The Emperor is discussing Netherese magic with him and suggesting the idea that perhaps there are other ways to harness the orb's power other than simply blowing up (with hints towards Gale potentially taking the crown later)
- The Emperor may encourage the player character to help Astarion ascend, as a Vampire Ascendant would be a useful pawn against the elder brain (Astarion currently comes up with this notion himself, but I wouldn't mind some tweaking so that the Emperor is the one who suggests it, and for Astarion to be a little hesitant but very tempted by the idea)
- The Emperor may be in favor of Wyll maintaining his pact to secure the power he has from Mizora (or if the timing were slightly different, to become a political challenger to Gortash)
-The Emperor may try to dissuade Lae'zel from looking for Orpheus, perhaps trying to convince her that this is all a trap set by Vlaakith to lure dissenters into chasing for a dead prince. This may even spark a little quest to find some proof that Orpheus is alive, like encountering a member of his honor guard who's looking for help (and for the Emperor to try to convince the party that this is a spy sent by Vlaakith).
- The Emperor may talk to Shadowheart about her missing memories, offering to unlock some of them, in the interest of trying to pry into her quest (maybe replacing the Noblestalk interaction)
Act 3 -- Start
To kick things off, I would tweak the first major encounter with the Emperor slightly.
Currently, when we arrive in the Astral Prism and see the fight, the Emperor is on the ground, begging us not to kill him, and trying to persuade us that he is our protector. We then have a frankly puzzling amount of time to sit there questioning him, which he patiently endures, WHILE THE FIGHT IS STILL HAPPENING. This, I think, is a horribly missed opportunity for a far more interesting introduction to this character, one which could do a much better job of creating tension between the player and the Emperor (for both those who want to befriend the character and those that want to kill him), as well as one that just... doesn't involve a weird pause in what is supposed to be an active fight.
When you catch up to him in the Astral Prism, the Emperor is clearly in a hard-pressed fight, but he's not on the ground. Perhaps you even see a glimpse of him in Dream Visitor form before having the illusion broken, due to the effort of fighting.
Upon seeing you, his reaction is along the lines of "Finally! Now help me defeat these enemies!"
Based on my personaly experience in this encounter, I think the reaction of the majority of players is neither to immediately attack the Emperor, nor to immediately assist him, but instead more like "WTF is going on here?!" And this is where I think the major shift should be.
The Emperor has no patience for your questions right now. I'd give the player perhaps one simple question they can ask ("Dream Visitor, is that you???" / "Yes! I'll explain later, now fight!"), and if the player hesitates any longer than that the Emperor will mind-control your entire party and use them to finish the fight.
Now, you may protest that this is a horrible breach of player agency in this scene, but... the game is going to railroad you into working with the Emperor regardless. Why not use this as an opportunity to establish the Emperor's "villainous" side and his willingness to do whatever it takes to ensure his own survival? Far more fitting for the character than simply begging for his life, I think.
After the fight is finished, the Emperor will then release his control over your party, and he will now act a bit conciliatory. He'll cite to the urgency of the crisis as his reason for acting as he did, and he will now be ready to hear out your questions and concerns in a calm manner -- this behavior is not to be mistaken for saying that the Emperor is really a good person, but rather showing how much he values being "in control" of the situation; he'll entertain your questions only when he's certain of his own safety.
Here, players who really want to attack the Emperor will get another chance to. This time, the Emperor is a bit tired from the previous attempt to mind control you (he cannot maintin this long-term), but he will try again. He'll make all the arguments he can about how Orpheus will not protect you, as well as just pleading with you to cooperate willingly. If you continue to refuse, you'll get the game-over. It can be open to interpretation whether he broke your mind a la Stelmane, or if all of you were overwhelmed by the Absolute in the chaos. This shift is designed to point the player's frustration where it belongs -- not at Orpheus for not protecting you, but at the Emperor, the character you've actually been interacting with throughout the game. No one who takes this route is going to be happy about "being forced to submit," but that frustration will later be vindicated in the boss fight with the Emperor, assuming that they stick to the Distrust path; that's the real point here.
Otherwise, I think the common path will be that players will first hesitate, and then hear the Emperor out, and then be very uneasy about the whole situation without quite knowing how to act yet. They do need the Emperor's protection, after all, but they'll probably want to get away from this guy once the opportunity presents itself.
Basically, this whole encounter is designed to demonstrate that the Emperor is clearly willing to usurp control of your party from you and use you as his pawns, but he doesn't necessarily mean your party any harm -- at least not while you all have an enemy in common. I believe that is the correct effect to aim for (based on how characters talk about the situation).
Act 3 -- Clashing with the Party
I'd look for some opportunities for the party members to now be in heated arguments with the Emperor for various reasons, some of which could result in the Emperor threatening to expel the party member from their protection if they don't comply. For some alternatives, the party could be trying to convince the Emperor to assist with their own plans and be annoyed that he isn't cooperative (for those who aren't as inclined to be hostile towards him). These could be tied to their personal quests or alluding to the party's offscreen attempts to further the main quests.
Some examples:
- Lae'zel trying to develop a way to open the astral prism by force and angering the Emperor
- Wyll commenting that he was trying to gather information in the city, and the Emperor interfered by manipulating NPCs to hide information (alluding to Stelmane / the Emperor covering his own tracks)
- Astarion trying to get the Emperor to mind-control some people for him to help him find more information about what Cazador's been doing (or trying to learn how to take control of the ritual)
What stance the Emperor is taking on their personal quests / what they're arguing over will have to be reconciled with whatever the Emperor is encouraging them to do in Act 2; it obviously wouldn't make sense for him to interfere with doing the exact thing he was suggesting that they do. These are just loose ideas.
Act 3 -- Orphic Hammer Questline
This was the questline where I had the most specific ideas for ways the Emperor could meddle with you, for obvious reasons. It's the one he has the most personal stake in and the clearest stances on. If the Stelmane quest were more central, I'd say that would be a prime spot to focus on, as well.
My experience with this quest was that the first time I did it, I did not take Raphael's deal but stole the hammer later. The Emperor confronted me about it, and I was curious how harshly he might respond, but my character had expressed an almost naive level of "It's not right to keep Orpheus imprisoned, but I don't actually have a plan," and the Emperor laughed it off, which seemed fair enough.
In my second playthrough, though, I wanted to test some of the dialogue options a little more. I took Raphael's deal (which seems like a terrible idea, frankly), then attempted to lie to the Emperor about it, failed at hiding it from him, and then braced myself to see what the Emperor would now do.
Nothing. He did nothing. Because he can't. He has nothing he can do to back up his threats against us. This is one of the main reasons I just cannot get behind the feeling that he's such a threatening villain. He complains, but he can't hurt us.
Here's my idea for how this quest line plays out:
- The Emperor, as he does now, tries to find out what Raphael offered the players. If they refuse, things can stay basically the same. If they accept, the Emperor will act oddly calm. He'll be very disapproving, but he makes no comment about his future courses of action.
- Let's say the party refused the deal (because this is the one I'm familiar with). They'll then try to go to the House of Hope to steal the hammer. If the Emperor knows what the deal that was offered was, then he can put two and two together and knows what the player is intending to do in the Hells. Before opening the portal, this sparks a dialogue with the Emperor. The player can try to convince the Emperor to allow them to take the hammer, for various reasons. If they succeed, he'll back off. If they fail, then they have to make a saving throw against the Emperor; if they fail the saving throw, he briefly mind-controls them and destroys the ritual components, preventing them from opening the portal (but they can still go accept Raphael's deal if they really want the hammer).
- If the Emperor did not know about the deal before the players entered the House of Hope, he comments on them having the hammer upon their return. Again, there's a chance to converse with him and attempt to convince him to go along with this. If they fail, he simply expresses disapproval.
- If the Emperor is still not convinced, then on a later long rest, the player wakes to find Lae'zel (if available) wrestling with an NPC who's trying to make off with the hammer. The NPC is a random people who's being mind-controlled by the Emperor in an attempt to hide / throw away the hammer so that the party cannot use it. There's one final chance to potentially debate with him about it, although no matter what, the Emperor is forced to yield here -- the hammer is too secure for him to get rid of it.
- For one option on the Trust path, at any point during the conversations with the Emperor about the hammer, the player can offer to let the Emperor be the one to keep the hammer, telling him it's just in case of emergencies down the line. This will make things a little harder if the player later ends up fighting him, but it'll be an easier way to get the path to convince the Emperor and Orpheus to work together.
Also, throughout this process, the Emperor's behavior should be influenced by where he currently stands on the Trust/Distrust (Approval) meter, and perhaps whether his personal quest has been resolved. If the Emperor has already been pushed heavily towards the side of Trust, then he should stop being so inclined to meddle. The DC of the various skill checks against him can also be adjusted based on where he currently stands, making it easier to talk him down the more often you take the diplomatic approach.
Alongside some mix of the above, I would have the quest to investigate Stelmane's murder be a little more involved, as well as remixing the basement exploration. Rather than just showing up with her name on a list of cult murders (with no motive other than "Bhaal said to" given, apparently), I'd want there to be more investigation on why exactly she, and perhaps some of the other names, were on that list. This thread would be a way to explore what Gortash and Orin were up to in the city and how they rose to power, as well as how Stelmane and others were trying and failing to stop them.
As said before, the Emperor was there for this phase of the story, and this would also be a chance for him to reflect on how things went between him and Stelmane, as well as with the other people involved in the story, whom he likely met as part of trying to thwart Gortash.
The player can guide the Emperor in what conclusions he draws from these events, which will heavily influence where he stands on the Trust / Distrust path. If he's convinced that it would have been better to have more faith in his allies and that his paranoid and manipulative tendencies sabotaged his own efforts by straining his alliances, then he'll lean towards Trust. If he's convinced that he should have been even more controlling to leave no openings for Gortash to exploit, then he'll lean towards Distrust.
If possible, I'd love to see this blended in with a more cohesive main plot connecting the events of Act 3 and related to resolving the Orin/Gortash phase of the storyline.
This is slightly going off-topic, but I really wish that the Emperor weren't so overtly interested in sex with the player. It feels incredibly strange coming from a mind-flayer, and this character seemed like one who'd be a good candidate for a character the player would have to be the one to express sexual interest in. There can still be a quiet scene of the Emperor expressing that they've come to enjoy the player's company and possibly even reflecting on missing their days of working with their party, but I think it should be up to the player to express romantic interest in the Emperor, which the Emperor can go along with after expressing some confusion.
Also, I feel like the ability to romance this character should probably be exclusive to the Trust path (i.e. not a player who's constantly telling the Emperor how much they hate him / mind-flayers), and some other conversation can occur here on the Distrust path -- still on the subject of companionship, but with a different tone. For example, for the Emperor to remark that he knows that neither of you are happy about the current arrangement, but trying to encourage you to stay focused on your mutual goal of beating the Netherbrain and then going your separate ways. This seems like a good way for the scene to still have the overtones of "the Emperor reaching out" while still acknowledging the distrust between the parties.
I'm bringing in thoughts I've had about the "choice" about what to do with the Netherbrain, as well, so here we go.
First, there are some changes I'd like to make to the circumstances of the finale. They don't require much screentime to change, but I think they have a big impact on the weight of your decisions:
1) The Absolute did NOT transform all of the infected. This means that similar to the consequences of blowing up the brain in Act 2, there are many "hostages" in play that can still be saved if the brain is properly disabled.
2) The Absolute CAN be killed WITHOUT a mindflayer. (Only the Netherstones are required for this)
3) The "hostages" CANNOT be saved without a mindflayer. (The brain must be controlled by a mind-flayer for this to be done)
Thus:
When you are pulled into the Astral Prism, the Emperor explains that he cannot continue both subduing Orpheus and also resisting the Absolute. He's now ready to simply kill Orpheus and hope to absorb his power (if you ask him early in Act 3, he expresses doubt about it working this way). The other obvious choice is to free Orpheus and have him fight alongside you as your protector.
Also, the player character's sacrifice of becoming a mind-flayer is NEVER strictly "necessary" -- it is a choice to become a mind-flayer to spare countless others from that fate. In the current game, it's basically "become a mind-flayer or everyone dies, including you" which isn't really much of a choice. By making it possible to achieve a lesser victory by defeating the brain but losing the infected, the choice has a little more meaning to it. The alternative to this choice was having shown compassion to a mind-flayer even without having become one, and getting the Emperor to help you.
Siding with Orpheus
If you kill the Emperor and free Orpheus, then Orpheus will gladly join the cause to defeat the elder brain -- but he will NOT, under any circumstances, turn into a mindflayer himself. He's already expressed that he sees the infected as a lost cause, though he will promise that he and his githyanki warriors will help slay those who turn and protect the uninfected of the city. Now:
A) You can kill the brain, but the infected (minus the party) will also die. The party surviving can be handwaved as some combination of Orpheus's protection and possessing the Netherstones / being right next to the brain when it dies. None of the party becomes a mind-flayer.
B) You can save the hostages IFF one of the party members turns into a mindflayer. Orpheus MUST BE PERSUADED to allow this -- otherwise, he sees teaming up with a full-blown mindflayer as both abhorrent and simply too risky. If Lae'zel is around to vouch for you, he's easier to persuade. If Orpheus refuses, you simply can't turn, and he may destroy the tadpole so you can't use it. (You also need to use this path if you're planning to take the brain yourself while siding with Orpheus)
*As alluded to in one of my above comments about the Orphic Hammer -- if the party is currently holding the hammer, they can free Orpheus immediately and gain his help in the battle. If the Emperor is holding the hammer, they must defeat him without Orpheus's help, although Orpheus will still be protecting them from the Netherbrain. To explain why Orpheus doesn't just eject the Emperor from his protection, I'd say that the Emperor still has enough psychic control over him to force him to shield the Emperor, too. (In the case where Orpheus is still imprisoned, either he has enough freedom to extend his protection, despite the Emperor trying to kill you, or the Emperor would rather fight you as you are than fight you-controlled-by-the-Asbolute).
Siding with the Emperor
If you kill Orpheus and side with the Emperor, how this option plays out is now dependent on where the Emperor stands on his Trust / Distrust meter. If he's somewhere in the middle, there will be a chance to talk to him right as he's primed to take control of the Netherbrain. If he's too far to either side, then he'll act on his own.
A) If he's on the Trust side, he will use his control over the brain to free the hostages, as promised, and then kill the elder brain. (Or, if you want the Absolute to rule the world, you can convince him to do so)
B) If he's on the Distrust side, he will seize the opportunity to try to control the brain and take over the cult of the Absolute. The party can battle him here, and although it might require some skill checks to grab the Netherstones from him.
In either case, if you're a mindflayer, you can try to seize the brain instead of him.
Siding with Both the Emperor and Orpheus
Here's where the Trust path with the Emperor will really pay off, if you pursued it. The Emperor starts out very strongly against the idea of releasing Orpheus, as he expects Orpheus to simply try to kill him (and the party) and assumes that Orpheus would not work with a mindflayer under any circumstances. If the Emperor is too far down the Distrust path, he simply cannot be persuaded otherwise. If he's on the Trust path, the player will have the opportunity to make the case to him that it would be better for all of them to attempt an alliance.
Here are some arguments the player might make:
- Orpheus hates the Netherbrain and the Grand Design far more than one lone mind-flayer who is clearly working against the brain
- The Emperor was uncertain that the power can be transferred; Orpheus willingly joining them nullifies this concern
- The alliance is so unthinkable that even the Netherbrain won't see it coming (one of the lore books mentions something like this about elder brains)
- Telling the Emperor that if Orpheus refuses the alliance, you'll side with the Emperor (you don't have to follow through)
- Asking the Emperor to trust in the player's judgment, pointing to their track record up until now
If the Emperor is successfully persuaded, he will relax his hold on Orpheus enough so that Orpheus can speak to the party, although the Emperor is still forcing him to protect everyone from the Netherbrain. Now, the party must also speak to Orpheus and argue their case to him, too. Orpheus is likely to raise the concern about the Emperor betraying you (the thing that will happen in the Distrust path) as well as his general stance against mindflayers. He'd try to convince the party to simply free him, as the Emperor clearly does not have the mental resources to subdue them all at once anymore. The party can make arguments about trying to save the people who have been infected, as well as possibly defending the Emperor if he's been helpful, even if he protested at first.
If both are convinced, then an alliance has been forged. At this point, the Emperor's Trust path will be locked in, and he won't try to take the brain. Orpheus also has no intentions of betraying this agreement (the player still can, though).
With Orpheus protecting the party and the Emperor acting as your mindflayer, the brain can be killed and the hostages saved, without any member of the party having to turn into a mindflayer (unless you just felt like it -- presumably suggesting to them that having a backup mindflayer would be safer).
After helping save the city, Orpheus and the Emperor leave peacefully, as they each do in their current respective endings.
My intention here is to make players feel as though the choices they make with the Emperor have meaningful impact, as well as to give resolutions to both those who like the Emperor an those who hate him. And my approach to this was having a universal "worst option" on the table, with the good endings being different choices of how to avoid it. In other words, the endings could be ranked something like this:
Worst Ending -- Orpheus is killed, but the Emperor betrays you. No one wants this outcome; it is a failure, but where exactly you failed is a matter of interpretation.
Good Ending (For those who hate the Emperor) -- Free Orpheus, fight the Emperor. Optionally, become a mind-flayer to save the infected.
Good Ending (For those who like the Emperor) -- Convince Orpheus and the Emperor to work together. For a lesser victory, the Emperor makes good on his word, but Orpheus was killed.
In either "good" ending, you're rewarded for putting in the effort to properly "deal with" the Emperor and avoid the worst outcome, by your preferred methods. Either you made sure to secure the hammer and then attacked him when the time was right; or you worked to reform him and convince him that an alliance was a better approach. While I do think the "work together" path has some slight overtones of being a "best ending," I still want "Free Orpheus, Kill the Emperor" to feel like a major victory, since I think a good portion of players would prefer something like that.
That's my pitch. Some of the ideas are more concrete, while others are more like suggestions for how this character's storyline can be integrated with some of the other storylines going on. I'm most interested in the revisions to Act 3, especially to the finale (Emperor-Orpheus-Netherbrain situation). I also have a personal beef with the "Balduran" thing and would love to see that bit gone, if at all possible. Edit: I've been doing a lot of little tweaking and refining of my thoughts.
Last edited by Jewel; 11/01/24 10:13 PM.
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veteran
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veteran
Joined: Mar 2020
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I'm sorry it took me so long to log in to praise this post. Really, really good work. I like that you've come up with a solution both for people who want to see The Emperor as an ally / romantic partner and those of who want to see him as villain and end boss. Exceptional work, I hope the devs take notice. This never works but I'm going to try anyway: Hey @Salo please read this post 
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apprentice
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OP
apprentice
Joined: Dec 2023
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I'm sorry it took me so long to log in to praise this post. Really, really good work. I like that you've come up with a solution both for people who want to see The Emperor as an ally / romantic partner and those of who want to see him as villain and end boss. Exceptional work, I hope the devs take notice. This never works but I'm going to try anyway: Hey @Salo please read this post Thanks! Despite writing up what basically feels like a massive criticism, I honestly liked this character concept and wished that we could have gotten a more fully realized version of them. The Emperor invoked a lot of tropes that I find interesting to explore, but unfortunately, it felt like the writers didn't have time to actually explore them (the Emperor is not alone in this during Act 3, and I sympathize with time constraints). Basically, I love explorations of the psychology of inhuman and formerly human characters and their struggles to relate to others and society. And I also love narratives dealing with "evil mentors" who offer some pragmatic assistance like providing protection and shelter, at the cost of emotional abuse and manipulative behavior. The Emperor had both of these, but in a very... weird blend. At times, you could seem to separate the potential paths based on your dialogue options, like getting to have some sympathetic conversations with the Emperor vs antagonizing them. But then at pivotal moments, the characters lands in some weird in-between space where they're trying to be both at once. Both of the times you're asked to choose whether to attack the Emperor feel this way -- I can't imagine either side of the audience being happy with the way the Emperor just kind of pleads with you to take his side. That's not the kind of villain I feel good about having overthrown; it feels more like a problem I failed to solve in a better way. This is why I really, really wish that at the very least, the Emperor-Orpheus decision (and Netherbrain interactions) can get tweaked, because that's the payoff moment. Even if the game doesn't technically take our past interactions into account, as long as we don't deliberately poke the "other path's" options, we can still imagine that cohesive narrative in our own heads. Like, someone who's been hostile to the Emperor thus far can pick the option for a proper boss fight with him and just ignore that the option to appeal to trust is for some reason still around. But fleshing out both paths only to funnel us into the current endings would be utterly pointless; better to start by tweaking the finale and working backwards.
Last edited by Jewel; 11/01/24 08:19 PM.
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apprentice
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apprentice
Joined: Jan 2024
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BIG SPOILERS AHEAD FOR THE EMPEROR!!! First, I don't think that the Emperor should be Balduran. I don't think that this adds anything to the character, and I believe it actually detracts from the "I was an adventurer, just like you" presentation that was initially given. I don't know that the Emperor delivers on feeling like someone whose footsteps the player might be following, but I do know that as soon as the Emperor is revealed to be Balduran, the identity of "founder of Baldur's Gate" completely usurps any other concept of who this character was pre-illithid, and it adds nothing. Balduran is not significant to the story of BG3, and finding out that he became an illithid after his final voyage does nothing good to Balduran's own story. I think the Emperor should simply be an unnamed adventurer whose original appearance is the one we see as the Dream Visitor. I personally quite enjoy the reveal that he was once Balduran. I like that Larian fully leaned into the idea that you may not want to meet your heroes. Having him be a legendary hero actually works quite well as the player character is well on their way to becoming a legend in their own right. If he were just some adventurer whose actual appearance was that of the Dream Guardian, then the mechanic of having the player designing their Guardian wouldn’t make much sense in the story. The whole idea is that you create your Dream Guardian as a figure you would trust, which later turns out to be an Illithid who studied you and picked that form as a means of manipulating you to his cause. As a note, I would personally try to find some other name for this character other than the Emperor, to reflect the genderless illithid and player-designed original form of the character. I think sticking with the name is not necessarily an indication of gender in this instance, as it seems like a name he just enjoyed. Having said that, he is heavily coded as male both before and after becoming an illithid, and given he still retains much of his humanity, I think having that coding carry over into his current form makes a lot of sense. The game seems to intentionally avoid calling him male as far as I can remember, so in some ways he does reflect the genderless illithids while also being coded male. The Emperor Romance This is slightly going off-topic, but I really wish that the Emperor weren't so overtly interested in sex with the player. It feels incredibly strange coming from a mind-flayer, and this character seemed like one who'd be a good candidate for a character the player would have to be the one to express sexual interest in. There can still be a quiet scene of the Emperor expressing that they've come to enjoy the player's company and possibly even reflecting on missing their days of working with their party, but I think it should be up to the player to express romantic interest in the Emperor, which the Emperor can go along with after expressing some confusion.
Also, I feel like the ability to romance this character should probably be exclusive to the Trust path (i.e. not a player who's constantly telling the Emperor how much they hate him / mind-flayers), and some other conversation can occur here on the Distrust path -- still on the subject of companionship, but with a different tone. For example, for the Emperor to remark that he knows that neither of you are happy about the current arrangement, but trying to encourage you to stay focused on your mutual goal of beating the Netherbrain and then going your separate ways. This seems like a good way for the scene to still have the overtones of "the Emperor reaching out" while still acknowledging the distrust between the parties. I think that a romance with The Emperor should likely be tied to a hidden approval rating, but I think it would be a mistake to tone down his sexuality. Not only is it part of his appeal, but there are clear and intentional elements of his character design that are meant to evoke a strong, male sexuality. For example: his voice, the way in which he stands with his hips cocked forward, the design of his armor with the codpiece, and the way in which he describes the beauty of being an illithid are all meant to have a strong current of sexuality that is both human and reminiscent of a male romantic archetype found in many other romances stories including monster romances. Diminishing his sexuality would be at odds with his character design. As far as it feeling weird that a mind flayed would be so overtly interested in sex, remember, we’re not talking about just any illithid here; we’re talking about The Emperor. This is an illithid who is both alien and human with both illithid and human desires. I also find that him being able to experience sexual desire and pleasure without traditional human or reproductive anatomy is important in a game that’s as inclusive and diverse as it is. I think the real issue comes down to the lead up to the romance scene not being properly established, and that throws people. (I also think a lot of people are salty about the Dream Guardian reveal, but I digress). While I understand that the romance scene follows what is, in many ways, an intimate moment for him with the player as they go through his old possessions, one way to better establish this scene would be to create a dialogue between The Emperor and the player character as they explore his personal belongings. Depending on the player’s choices during that conversation, it could lead nicely and naturally into the romance scene at the next long rest. Generally speaking, earning the Emperor's trust comes from dialogue choices that show an open-mind towards mindflayers, acknowledge the Emperor's desire for safety, and can appeal to logic rather than morality. Losing the Emperor's trust comes from options that resolve disputes with them via intimidation or force.
For example, when discussing the Orphic Hammer:
- Trust-path solutions might include reassuring the Emperor that the player does not see freeing Orpheus and killing the Emperor as intrinsically linked (attentive the Emperor's concerns); or pushing for the pragmatic idea that having the hammer around may be useful later and shouldn't be ignored just because it makes the Emperor nervous (logic-based)
- Distrust-path solutions would be based on simply telling the Emperor that since they're dependent on the party, they have to go along with this (intimidation); or options that involve resisting the Emperor's psychic attempts to interfere (by force)
I'd also like to note that submitting to the Emperor's demands every time a conflict arises is NOT the same as choosing the "Trust" path -- this is not about whether the Emperor likes the action you're taking, but whether you're challenging his mindset about how a party should be run. I'd probably make most options that concede to the Emperor simply be neutral; he has not changed his opinions in any way. I think these are great, and I like how it involves not just going along with everything The Emperor says. I think part of the reason some people have strong negative feelings about this character is that you can’t influence him in the way you can other characters, and maintaining a good relationship involves following along too much for people’s liking. Having said that, you can definitely not take the astral tadpole and have a good relationship with him, but more options would make the relationship feel more equal. As far as your suggestion that the player make skill checks to avoid The Emperor’s manipulations, this creates too many problems with his character development. I’ve written in another post about why I think he never enthralls the player character, and regardless of whether that’s the actual reason, one thing that sets The Emperor apart from other illithids, or at least our expectations of them, is that he never controls the character in that manner. He seems to genuinely value their free will. When you catch up to him in the Astral Prism, the Emperor is clearly in a hard-pressed fight, but he's not on the ground. Perhaps you even see a glimpse of him in Dream Visitor form before having the illusion broken, due to the effort of fighting.
Upon seeing you, his reaction is along the lines of "Finally! Now help me defeat these enemies!"
Based on my personaly experience in this encounter, I think the reaction of the majority of players is neither to immediately attack the Emperor, nor to immediately assist him, but instead more like "WTF is going on here?!" And this is where I think the major shift should be.
The Emperor has no patience for your questions right now. I'd give the player perhaps one simple question they can ask ("Dream Visitor, is that you???" / "Yes! I'll explain later, now fight!"), and if the player hesitates any longer than that the Emperor will mind-control your entire party and use them to finish the fight. The same problem occurs here as far as his character. The Emperor, as he is now written, seems to value the player character’s free will and agency and any threats he makes to the contrary are toothless and all bluster. Changing this not only undermines what is unique about him as an illithid, but he is just, frankly, a different character entirely at this point. I think a little awkwardness in the fight is worth keeping this fundamental aspect of his character intact. The Emperor's Character Arc: The Trust / Distrust Path Now we're getting into the idea I put forward in the earlier Emps and Orphs thread. Mainly, the Emperor's arc hinges on the idea of whether they trust the party (and respect the party's decision-making) or whether they distrust the party (and are inclined to try to manipulate and assert control over them). Our themes here are basically trust, control, and leadership, which I believe fit with the narrative the game has presented.
As a general background for this section, I found that one of the most compelling interactions I had regarding the Emperor was during Jaheira's quest to rescue Minsc. Jaheira wanted to save Minsc by knocking him out, and I put in the effort to make sure to keep him alive. But the Emperor nearly refused to extend the Astral Prism's protection to Minsc, requiring multiple rounds of advocating for it by both the player character and Jaheira threatening to throw the Emperor into a volcano. And the fact that there was an actual possibility of not persuading him here (by choosing to concede) made it one of the few times that it felt like the Emperor's threats had any teeth to it (I'll talk about this more re:Orphic Hammer). I'd like to see more interactions like that, though not always as extreme.
Throughout the game, I would have the Emperor do a mix of two things:
1) Advise the player on how to run their party and discussing the subject with them
2) Meddle with the party's course of action, effectively challenging the player's control of their party
The intent here is not quite to actually be a serious threat to the player's choices, but to give the illusion of a threat, and to make the METHOD of exerting control over your own party be an important part of the Trust/Distrust dichotomy. The debate with the Emperor is essentially that of how to lead and direct your party -- the Emperor advocates for manipulation and overriding the agency of others, while you can choose to advocate for diplomacy, respect, and compassion; but how you treat the Emperor is an important part of that, as well -- you don't get to try to preach about listening to others but then constantly take the Intimidation path with the Emperor himself without it leading to a fight later on. Where the Emperor falls on the Trust / Distrust spectrum is the product of the player's own "leadership style" -- either a hard-earned ally, or an enemy of their own making.
Generally speaking, earning the Emperor's trust comes from dialogue choices that show an open-mind towards mindflayers, acknowledge the Emperor's desire for safety, and can appeal to logic rather than morality. Losing the Emperor's trust comes from options that resolve disputes with them via intimidation or force.
For example, when discussing the Orphic Hammer:
- Trust-path solutions might include reassuring the Emperor that the player does not see freeing Orpheus and killing the Emperor as intrinsically linked (attentive the Emperor's concerns); or pushing for the pragmatic idea that having the hammer around may be useful later and shouldn't be ignored just because it makes the Emperor nervous (logic-based)
- Distrust-path solutions would be based on simply telling the Emperor that since they're dependent on the party, they have to go along with this (intimidation); or options that involve resisting the Emperor's psychic attempts to interfere (by force)
I'd also like to note that submitting to the Emperor's demands every time a conflict arises is NOT the same as choosing the "Trust" path -- this is not about whether the Emperor likes the action you're taking, but whether you're challenging his mindset about how a party should be run. I'd probably make most options that concede to the Emperor simply be neutral; he has not changed his opinions in any way.
While I don't know the exact mechanics of what's going on in the Astral Prism, I am going to say that the Emperor can exert their own psychic influence over anyone in the range of their protection, meaning that they can meddle with nearby NPCs, although they are subject to the party carrying them around. This is to give them some ability to back up their threats, as well as possibly offering some tangible assistance in certain scenarios. In most cases where the Emperor is going to interfere, I would attach a short dialogue with them (as seen in the case where they talk to you after Raphael proposes his deal) that can either persuade them not to interfere (or to be helpful), or call them out on having done so.
For examples of behavior they might demonstrate:
- Manipulating NPCs to avoid answering certain questions, such as if the player tries to talk about the Astral Prism or Dream Visitor to NPCs who have no business knowing (for example, trying to bring it up to druids at the grove, anyone at the goblin camp, etc). These might be unavoidable, but the player has the chance to yell at the Dream Visitor over it
- Alternatively, forcing the player to make saving throws in order to speak of certain things, like when telling the githyanki about having the astral prism (these can be the weak DC 5 checks; the point is just to create the feeling of interference)
- Manipulating the actions of anyone in their range, and not just those branded by the Absolute. This can be a chance for the Dream Visitor to show their support of certain courses of actions by manipulating guards, etc. to allow the players to proceed more easily.
- Threatening to expel companions from their protection
Act 1 -- Opinions and Advice
Although the Emperor may not be willing to break with the party over their decisions, they should still have more opinions about how the party decides to resolve various quests, and rather than just saying lines that the player can't respond to, I would like to see some actual discussions here.
The pattern I would like is for the Emperor to talk to the player before a major decision is made, both offering the Emperor's preferred path and then asking the player to state their intended path. The Emperor need not interfere just because they disagree, especially early on. But then after the decision is made, I would also like to see the Emperor comment on whether the player did as they said they would do, and whether they stand by that decision. And I see no reason to have the awkward delay waiting for long rest dream sequences with the character for all of these; they clearly demonstrate the ability to communicate telepathically whenever they please in later acts.
For example, if a player chose to defend the Grove and had said they were interested in protecting people, the Emperor may comment on how many goblins had to be killed in that fight, and whether this bothers the player.
The companion quests may also be the subject of conversation -- particular in Act 1, I think the Emperor could comment to the player character about the company they keep, rather than talking to any of the companions directly (saving that for later). The Emperor should voice their suspicions about every party member, generally warning the player to watch their back and make sure to keep everyone in line, and other advice one might imagine a manipulative sociopath giving when it comes to controlling their minions. Effectively, the Emperor is trying to use the player as their proxy, since they cannot lead the party themselves (they may even cite anecdotes from their former adventuring party as part of their advice). Not all of their commentary needs to be wrong -- particularly when it comes to knowing each companion's motivations and insecurities, I would expect the mindflayer to be spot on, just in an exploitative way.
Act 2 -- Tempting the Party Members
Playing off the way the Dream Visitor is presented as trying to tempt us to take power, I think I'd like to see cases of the Emperor talking to other companions and providing discussions and debates for the player to weigh in on (loosely echoing some of the intentions with Daisy, I think). I think Act 2 would be a prime location for some of these, as the story otherwise feels a bit narrow, and the feeling of one of your main conversation partners being the voice in your head would fit nicely with that while still fleshing things out a bit more. I would aim for the Emperor to encourage the "ascension" path when available, but keeping the Emperor's own personal interests in mind, too. Some ideas:
- After Gale receives the visit from Elminster, Gale can be seen talking to the Emperor. The Emperor is discussing Netherese magic with him and suggesting the idea that perhaps there are other ways to harness the orb's power other than simply blowing up (with hints towards Gale potentially taking the crown later)
- The Emperor may encourage the player character to help Astarion ascend, as a Vampire Ascendant would be a useful pawn against the elder brain (Astarion currently comes up with this notion himself, but I wouldn't mind some tweaking so that the Emperor is the one who suggests it, and for Astarion to be a little hesitant but very tempted by the idea)
- The Emperor may be in favor of Wyll maintaining his pact to secure the power he has from Mizora (or if the timing were slightly different, to become a political challenger to Gortash)
-The Emperor may try to dissuade Lae'zel from looking for Orpheus, perhaps trying to convince her that this is all a trap set by Vlaakith to lure dissenters into chasing for a dead prince. This may even spark a little quest to find some proof that Orpheus is alive, like encountering a member of his honor guard who's looking for help (and for the Emperor to try to convince the party that this is a spy sent by Vlaakith).
- The Emperor may talk to Shadowheart about her missing memories, offering to unlock some of them, in the interest of trying to pry into her quest (maybe replacing the Noblestalk interaction)
Act 3 -- Start
To kick things off, I would tweak the first major encounter with the Emperor slightly.
Currently, when we arrive in the Astral Prism and see the fight, the Emperor is on the ground, begging us not to kill him, and trying to persuade us that he is our protector. We then have a frankly puzzling amount of time to sit there questioning him, which he patiently endures, WHILE THE FIGHT IS STILL HAPPENING. This, I think, is a horribly missed opportunity for a far more interesting introduction to this character, one which could do a much better job of creating tension between the player and the Emperor (for both those who want to befriend the character and those that want to kill him), as well as one that just... doesn't involve a weird pause in what is supposed to be an active fight.
When you catch up to him in the Astral Prism, the Emperor is clearly in a hard-pressed fight, but he's not on the ground. Perhaps you even see a glimpse of him in Dream Visitor form before having the illusion broken, due to the effort of fighting.
Upon seeing you, his reaction is along the lines of "Finally! Now help me defeat these enemies!"
Based on my personaly experience in this encounter, I think the reaction of the majority of players is neither to immediately attack the Emperor, nor to immediately assist him, but instead more like "WTF is going on here?!" And this is where I think the major shift should be.
The Emperor has no patience for your questions right now. I'd give the player perhaps one simple question they can ask ("Dream Visitor, is that you???" / "Yes! I'll explain later, now fight!"), and if the player hesitates any longer than that the Emperor will mind-control your entire party and use them to finish the fight.
Now, you may protest that this is a horrible breach of player agency in this scene, but... the game is going to railroad you into working with the Emperor regardless. Why not use this as an opportunity to establish the Emperor's "villainous" side and his willingness to do whatever it takes to ensure his own survival? Far more fitting for the character than simply begging for his life, I think.
After the fight is finished, the Emperor will then release his control over your party, and he will now act a bit conciliatory. He'll cite to the urgency of the crisis as his reason for acting as he did, and he will now be ready to hear out your questions and concerns in a calm manner -- this behavior is not to be mistaken for saying that the Emperor is really a good person, but rather showing how much he values being "in control" of the situation; he'll entertain your questions only when he's certain of his own safety.
Here, players who really want to attack the Emperor will get another chance to. This time, the Emperor is a bit tired from the previous attempt to mind control you (he cannot maintin this long-term), but he will try again. He'll make all the arguments he can about how Orpheus will not protect you, as well as just pleading with you to cooperate willingly. If you continue to refuse, you'll get the game-over. It can be open to interpretation whether he broke your mind a la Stelmane, or if all of you were overwhelmed by the Absolute in the chaos. This shift is designed to point the player's frustration where it belongs -- not at Orpheus for not protecting you, but at the Emperor, the character you've actually been interacting with throughout the game. No one who takes this route is going to be happy about "being forced to submit," but that frustration will later be vindicated in the boss fight with the Emperor, assuming that they stick to the Distrust path; that's the real point here.
Otherwise, I think the common path will be that players will first hesitate, and then hear the Emperor out, and then be very uneasy about the whole situation without quite knowing how to act yet. They do need the Emperor's protection, after all, but they'll probably want to get away from this guy once the opportunity presents itself.
Basically, this whole encounter is designed to demonstrate that the Emperor is clearly willing to usurp control of your party from you and use you as his pawns, but he doesn't necessarily mean your party any harm -- at least not while you all have an enemy in common. I believe that is the correct effect to aim for (based on how characters talk about the situation).
Act 3 -- Clashing with the Party
I'd look for some opportunities for the party members to now be in heated arguments with the Emperor for various reasons, some of which could result in the Emperor threatening to expel the party member from their protection if they don't comply. For some alternatives, the party could be trying to convince the Emperor to assist with their own plans and be annoyed that he isn't cooperative (for those who aren't as inclined to be hostile towards him). These could be tied to their personal quests or alluding to the party's offscreen attempts to further the main quests.
Some examples:
- Lae'zel trying to develop a way to open the astral prism by force and angering the Emperor
- Wyll commenting that he was trying to gather information in the city, and the Emperor interfered by manipulating NPCs to hide information (alluding to Stelmane / the Emperor covering his own tracks)
- Astarion trying to get the Emperor to mind-control some people for him to help him find more information about what Cazador's been doing (or trying to learn how to take control of the ritual)
What stance the Emperor is taking on their personal quests / what they're arguing over will have to be reconciled with whatever the Emperor is encouraging them to do in Act 2; it obviously wouldn't make sense for him to interfere with doing the exact thing he was suggesting that they do. These are just loose ideas.
Act 3 -- Orphic Hammer Questline
This was the questline where I had the most specific ideas for ways the Emperor could meddle with you, for obvious reasons. It's the one he has the most personal stake in and the clearest stances on. If the Stelmane quest were more central, I'd say that would be a prime spot to focus on, as well.
My experience with this quest was that the first time I did it, I did not take Raphael's deal but stole the hammer later. The Emperor confronted me about it, and I was curious how harshly he might respond, but my character had expressed an almost naive level of "It's not right to keep Orpheus imprisoned, but I don't actually have a plan," and the Emperor laughed it off, which seemed fair enough.
In my second playthrough, though, I wanted to test some of the dialogue options a little more. I took Raphael's deal (which seems like a terrible idea, frankly), then attempted to lie to the Emperor about it, failed at hiding it from him, and then braced myself to see what the Emperor would now do.
Nothing. He did nothing. Because he can't. He has nothing he can do to back up his threats against us. This is one of the main reasons I just cannot get behind the feeling that he's such a threatening villain. He complains, but he can't hurt us.
Here's my idea for how this quest line plays out:
- The Emperor, as he does now, tries to find out what Raphael offered the players. If they refuse, things can stay basically the same. If they accept, the Emperor will act oddly calm. He'll be very disapproving, but he makes no comment about his future courses of action.
- Let's say the party refused the deal (because this is the one I'm familiar with). They'll then try to go to the House of Hope to steal the hammer. If the Emperor knows what the deal that was offered was, then he can put two and two together and knows what the player is intending to do in the Hells. Before opening the portal, this sparks a dialogue with the Emperor. The player can try to convince the Emperor to allow them to take the hammer, for various reasons. If they succeed, he'll back off. If they fail, then they have to make a saving throw against the Emperor; if they fail the saving throw, he briefly mind-controls them and destroys the ritual components, preventing them from opening the portal (but they can still go accept Raphael's deal if they really want the hammer).
- If the Emperor did not know about the deal before the players entered the House of Hope, he comments on them having the hammer upon their return. Again, there's a chance to converse with him and attempt to convince him to go along with this. If they fail, he simply expresses disapproval.
- If the Emperor is still not convinced, then on a later long rest, the player wakes to find Lae'zel (if available) wrestling with an NPC who's trying to make off with the hammer. The NPC is a random people who's being mind-controlled by the Emperor in an attempt to hide / throw away the hammer so that the party cannot use it. There's one final chance to potentially debate with him about it, although no matter what, the Emperor is forced to yield here -- the hammer is too secure for him to get rid of it.
- For one option on the Trust path, at any point during the conversations with the Emperor about the hammer, the player can offer to let the Emperor be the one to keep the hammer, telling him it's just in case of emergencies down the line. This will make things a little harder if the player later ends up fighting him, but it'll be an easier way to get the path to convince the Emperor and Orpheus to work together.
Also, throughout this process, the Emperor's behavior should be influenced by where he currently stands on the Trust/Distrust (Approval) meter, and perhaps whether his personal quest has been resolved. If the Emperor has already been pushed heavily towards the side of Trust, then he should stop being so inclined to meddle. The DC of the various skill checks against him can also be adjusted based on where he currently stands, making it easier to talk him down the more often you take the diplomatic approach. Unfortunately, I think many of these proposed changes compound the problem of The Emperor being multiple things at once and fundamentally change him in a way that lessens the character. Why would any player pursue a friendly alliance or romance with him if he blatantly meddles in your leadership, threatens your companions with expulsion, psychically manipulates you, frequently encourages you to mind control others, and takes away your free will and agency when it’s convenient for him? He goes from an antihero to a sociopath at that point. What’s unique about The Emperor is how he subverts our expectations. Yes, he’s manipulative, but he never mind controls you. He’s this supposedly asexual creature, yet he’s sexually interested in the player character and is heavily coded as a romantic male lead. He’s also supposed to be this heartless and soulless creature, but expresses care for the player character, and if you romance him, he’s sweet, vulnerable, and sincere. He’s supposed to be part of this hive mind, yet he wants his freedom and actively encourages the player character to form alliances to defeat the netherbrain. He needs to feed off the brains of others, but avoids the innocent. He may want the player character to change into an illithid, but he leaves that choice entirely to you. He’s alien, yet very human and desires allies and companionship. If Larian fleshed out his personal quest involving Stelmane, this would go a long way in resolving some of the issues around his character. I’ve talked in another post about what I believe happened between him and Stelmane, link here, and to summarize: I believe they had an alliance but that alliance fractured badly, and acting out of self-preservation, he attempted to control her or pull information from her mind and unintentionally disabled her. I believe he feels remorse and grieves the loss of their relationship, and I believe that explains a number of things the game presents to us. If Larian were to flesh out his personal quest involving Stelmane in a way that provided us the backstory of their relationship, The Emperor’s role in her illness, and how it affected him while not absolving him of his actions, that provides all the groundwork required for a more meaningful choice as to whether or not to ally with The Emperor, continue to romance him if you already are, or to become his enemy. As long as the backstory to this has room for him to show his humanity and growth, then the player can decide what impact that has on their relationship for better or worse, without adding all these elements that fundamentally change his character. If Larian were to add dialogue options with The Guardian and Emperor, especially when they interact with the player from the astral prism, those dialogue options could lead down either antagonistic or trusting paths that build the relationship in meaningful ways. All this can be accomplished while still maintaining his character as someone who respects your leadership, your free will, and desires your alliance, if not your companionship. I would personally like to see the romantic or ally path resulting in the possibility of having The Emperor and Orpheus work together, while an antagonistic path wouldn’t provide that option. I think that resolves much of the issues with the ending while still allowing consequences for the player’s actions, and to allow him to fill a proper villain role in the end as part of the boss fight. I hope that if Larian were to add additional writing and development for The Emperor, that they wouldn’t fundamentally change his character. What’s so great about him are the fundamentals of his character. Where things falter, largely comes down to elements of the execution.
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apprentice
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OP
apprentice
Joined: Dec 2023
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Fair enough. I wouldn't be against a revision that leaned more towards the Emperor being the friendlier, more heroic version you describe, although I'm not entirely sure whether that's where I feel like the fundamentals of him currently are. There are times when the game tries very hard to convince us of that, while I feel like a lot of the subtext leans the other way. Obviously, the answer could be to try to address some of those things that currently lean towards seeing the Emperor as a sociopath (We were all there for the scene where he talks about what a beautiful sight it is to have someone captive under his control, right?) but that really was not my impression with the character. Though, specifically about
Balduran. My main issue with this is that Balduran was NEVER "my hero" -- he has no bearing on 90% of this story. In a different story, where we had a real sense of Balduran as a heroic figure that we personally looked up, finding out that the Emperor is Balduran might indeed have that kind of message. That is not the story we experienced, though. That's my main issue with it. And because they've gone and used that here, now Balduran is forever locked out from getting a proper story like that.
You are right that designing the Dream Guardian wouldn't make as much sense if it was their original form, and I wouldn't care if they stuck with the idea that the Emperor chose this form to play to our expectations. But unless they are going to be a character whose history is strongly intertwined with the story of this current game, I do think it would be better for them not to have one, rather than name-dropping someone who means very little to the player.
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old hand
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old hand
Joined: Oct 2020
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Here's what I'd do.
- The Githyanki are close to annihilating the remainder of the Illithid Empire. They have a weapon that supposedly protects them from getting dominated and on teh trail of the last surviving Elder Brain.
- The last of the Elder Brains is on the Prime Material plane, and as far as the Emperor is concerned, needs protecting at all costs.
- A Dreadmaster of Bane, posing as a scheming yet succesful politician organises an alliance with other outlawed faiths, namely A Myrkulite cult, a Sharran sect and the Murder Tribunal of Bhaal - to steal that weapon and come up with a plan to find and subjugate that Elder Brain. With it, they could rule the world, twirl their respective mustaches and all that. Of course, this alliance is fragile - but he's a Dreadmaster. He'll make them fall in line. Together they form a well rounded strike team to retrieve that weapon. Among that team is The Dark Urge and Shadowheart.
The Emperor, of course has ovfer the course of the last few years, tadpoled hundreds of people along the sword coast, waiting for a moment to strike and his intelligence network is *vast*. He learns of this plan, and concocts his own reaction. He will not steal the weapon from Vlaakith, we hill kidnap and tadpole the strike team.
This all goes well, the intro cutscene plays - the Githyanki track his Nautiloid yatta yatta
And the Emperor quickly poses a new plan. Get to the prime Material Plane, drop the newly created tadpoled team with the weapon. They might not be allies yet, but everyone and their mothers will be on their tails - so they will be quick to trust someone that protects them. If all else fails, we can always dominate them, they're tadpoled after all..
Fear my wrath, for it is great indeed.
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apprentice
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apprentice
Joined: Jan 2024
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Fair enough. I wouldn't be against a revision that leaned more towards the Emperor being the friendlier, more heroic version you describe, although I'm not entirely sure whether that's where I feel like the fundamentals of him currently are. I don’t think I described him as a hero. He’s, at the very least, an antihero, and I believe his morality and humanity are complex and nuanced. I do think his motivations are both understandable and sympathetic, which is quite different from being moral or heroic. His fundamentals are about how human he is in relation to the expectations we have of illithids being fundamentally inhuman. It has nothing to do with him being a hero.
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stranger
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stranger
Joined: Jun 2013
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I don't think the Emperor can be meaningfully improved without addressing Larian's fundamental misunderstanding of ceremorphosis.
From one of my other posts: "Barring some unmentioned magical intervention, the adventurer is dead, and the Emperor is either deceiving itself or telling the most obvious lie in the history of the realms."
The tadpole eats the brain, absorbs some of the host's knowledge, attaches itself to the brain stem, and rewrites the host's body into an illithid form.
If the Emperor is deluded - thinking itself to actually be the human it killed - the story should acknowledge the situation. Perhaps it could add another dimension to the horror. Or perhaps helping to reconcile the Emperor to the truth of its existence could profoundly change its character (for better or worse).
And if the Emperor is instead attempting to deceive the characters... I don't know how to save that scenario. The lie is too obvious. Even if we assume the player party is ignorant of the exact physical process (including Lae'zel and Gale despite their relevant experience), the scenario must somehow be interesting enough for a player who knows the lore to enjoy (role)playing along as their manipulated character is led to their doom.
Perhaps the Emperor could argue that the Githyanki and everyone else are wrong about how ceremorphosis works. Perhaps even offer to perform a gruesome autopsy of a dead illithid to show an intact brain melded with a tadpole (if an explicit retcon of the lore is desired).
The bare minimum for improvement would be for the party to actually talk about the Emperor's highly controversial claims among themselves. Seriously.
All of this matters beyond fidelity to source material: The Emperor's claims drastically alter the nature of the player character's impending fate - whether it's a matter of death or transformation.
There's also a "meta" problem to consider: If the game is going to replace my custom-made Dream Guardian (think Minthara but way hotter) with a pushy squid-man, the resulting scenario needs to be *VERY* interesting else it will simply be annoying. Which it currently is. As a player, I went from perking up and paying attention when the Dream Guardian spoke to wishing Omeluum's ring actually worked and silenced the Emperor.
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apprentice
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apprentice
Joined: Jan 2024
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I don't think the Emperor can be meaningfully improved without addressing Larian's fundamental misunderstanding of ceremorphosis.
From one of my other posts: "Barring some unmentioned magical intervention, the adventurer is dead, and the Emperor is either deceiving itself or telling the most obvious lie in the history of the realms."
The tadpole eats the brain, absorbs some of the host's knowledge, attaches itself to the brain stem, and rewrites the host's body into an illithid form.
If the Emperor is deluded - thinking itself to actually be the human it killed - the story should acknowledge the situation. Perhaps it could add another dimension to the horror. Or perhaps helping to reconcile the Emperor to the truth of its existence could profoundly change its character (for better or worse).
And if the Emperor is instead attempting to deceive the characters... I don't know how to save that scenario. The lie is too obvious. Even if we assume the player party is ignorant of the exact physical process (including Lae'zel and Gale despite their relevant experience), the scenario must somehow be interesting enough for a player who knows the lore to enjoy (role)playing along as their manipulated character is led to their doom.
Perhaps the Emperor could argue that the Githyanki and everyone else are wrong about how ceremorphosis works. Perhaps even offer to perform a gruesome autopsy of a dead illithid to show an intact brain melded with a tadpole (if an explicit retcon of the lore is desired).
The bare minimum for improvement would be for the party to actually talk about the Emperor's highly controversial claims among themselves. Seriously.
All of this matters beyond fidelity to source material: The Emperor's claims drastically alter the nature of the player character's impending fate - whether it's a matter of death or transformation.
There's also a "meta" problem to consider: If the game is going to replace my custom-made Dream Guardian (think Minthara but way hotter) with a pushy squid-man, the resulting scenario needs to be *VERY* interesting else it will simply be annoying. Which it currently is. As a player, I went from perking up and paying attention when the Dream Guardian spoke to wishing Omeluum's ring actually worked and silenced the Emperor.
A lot of people have brought up the lore of illithids, but I don’t think that’s actually as big of an issue as it sounds when you consider a couple of things. There’s apparently something called an “Adversary” which is an illithid that retains much of its former self in their new body. Also, back in, I think 2020, DnD lore changed pretty dramatically in that no race in the DnD world is inherently evil. I don’t think it’s much of a stretch at that point to have a scenario in which someone is transformed into an illithid and through absorbing the host’s knowledge leaves some of their former selves in tact. I don’t think that makes transformation less scary for most people. Turning into an illithid still changes you in ways you probably can’t fully comprehend until it’s experienced, you’re left vulnerable to enthrallment by an elderbrain, you can no longer live a normal life or walk openly in society, and now you have to feed on brains to survive. Not to mention, attachment to your physical self is very real and a lot of that gets projected on to the characters we play. As for the “‘meta’ problem,” I think no matter how interesting The Emperor is, there are always going to be a good number of people who are salty about having their hot guardian turn out to be a squid man. He’s also a potential romance, and I’ve explained in another post that monster romances, while quite popular, have two target audiences: women and queer people, and not everyone in those groups would be interested because interests vary among individuals. This puts his romance into a smaller minority of players.
Last edited by LittleMonday; 13/01/24 09:59 PM. Reason: Word choice
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stranger
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stranger
Joined: Jun 2013
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A lot of people have brought up the lore of illithids, but I don’t think that’s actually as big of an issue as it sounds when you consider a couple of things. There’s apparently something called an “Adversary” which is an illithid that retains much of its former self in their new body. I get the impression that the Adversary is essentially a mythological figure - the bringer of the illithid version of the Apocalypse, more-or-less. It could have been interesting for the Emperor to be the Adversary, especially if its plan involved the creation of a new type of illithid - one born of a symbiotic rather than parasitic relationship to its host. This could effectively fulfill the prophecy of destroying the Illithid Empire by supplanting it with "newlithids". That would leave the player with an interesting choice: 1. Accept permanent symbiosis and become a new kind of creature (something akin to Marvel Comics' Venom). This isn't as simple as "get cool powers" - both species would likely reject the hybrid, and becoming a newlithid would likely mean a struggle for survival as the Adversary's new age dawns (and many attempt to stop it). Still, the power would tempt some, and others might find meaning in helping to "rehabilitate" one of the great scourges of the universe (the illithids). *or* 2. Reject the tadpole and ruthlessly kill it to prevent an unwanted transformation. Cold, perhaps, but even the Adversary's new form of ceremorphosis would be a gross violation of autonomy when inflicted upon the unwilling. Not all would part with their human form or welcome the idea of sharing their body with another consciousness. And if the Adversary planned to infect an unwitting population (Baldur's Gate), then players might choose to become newlithids but still oppose the Adversary's schemes. The scenario could have been an "in-universe" means of changing the nature of illithids in future games and supplements, avoiding an overt retcon of existing lore.
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apprentice
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OP
apprentice
Joined: Dec 2023
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While I get that adherence to the established lore is definitely preferred, I'm not sure if that really prevents Larian from telling a compelling story with their modified version.
I do wish there was a little more acknowledgement of how atypical this is for illithids, rather than the Emperor sometimes acting like he speaks as a normal example of their kind. And I'd like a bit more justification than his "strong personality" -- did it have to do with being rescued? The attempted treatments he was given? Precautions taken before transformation? He was a renowned adventurer, after all -- if he tells me that some previous magical protections, skills, etc. that he'd developed contributed to this, I don't think I'd be too bothered by that; especially if teaching this to the player was part of how he ensured that they would also "survive" the transformation.
Mainly, I just wanted to see a more interesting arc or storyline from interacting with this character, even if it deviates from the D&D lore.
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apprentice
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apprentice
Joined: Jan 2024
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While I get that adherence to the established lore is definitely preferred, I'm not sure if that really prevents Larian from telling a compelling story with their modified version.
I do wish there was a little more acknowledgement of how atypical this is for illithids, rather than the Emperor sometimes acting like he speaks as a normal example of their kind. And I'd like a bit more justification than his "strong personality" -- did it have to do with being rescued? The attempted treatments he was given? Precautions taken before transformation? He was a renowned adventurer, after all -- if he tells me that some previous magical protections, skills, etc. that he'd developed contributed to this, I don't think I'd be too bothered by that; especially if teaching this to the player was part of how he ensured that they would also "survive" the transformation.
Mainly, I just wanted to see a more interesting arc or storyline from interacting with this character, even if it deviates from the D&D lore. I agree that Larian shouldn’t be strictly beholden to lore. DnD has had many changes to lore over the years, and if they’re moving in the direction of more nuanced character development, I think that’s great. I’ve heard there are other renegade illithids found in some forgotten realms stories, but I’m not familiar enough with the books and campaigns to verify that. The “strong personality” wasn’t an explanation as to why he’s different. It was The Emperor lying to Gortash and not telling him that Ansur saved him from the Elderbrain. As for the reasons of why he’s different, I think a lot of times when people are analyzing a story or character they assume every minute detail must have an explanation, when unless it’s story breaking, it’s not that important. He’s different because he’s different, and who he was before turning seems to have had something to do with that, but the exact details don’t really matter. Likely, as far as story telling, having The Emperor have this legendary past is more satisfying as to why he’s different than him being just some adventurer. Omeluum is also different and we’re short on details for him as well. Omeluum talks about breaking free from his colony through arcane magic, but the minutia of how he did that doesn’t matter. He broke free, and he’s another example that not all illithids are the same.
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old hand
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old hand
Joined: Jul 2009
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Larian already doesn't care about established lore and every time they deviated from it the game got worse.
Because face it, Larian sucks at writing stories and by now dont even try and instead depend on sex and simps to sell their game idiocracy style.
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apprentice
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OP
apprentice
Joined: Dec 2023
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The “strong personality” wasn’t an explanation as to why he’s different. It was The Emperor lying to Gortash and not telling him that Ansur saved him from the Elderbrain. If this is true, then this is just another reason why I wish they'd let us discuss these things with the character a bit more (I guess if the Emperor did ever state this directly, it must have been down other dialogue paths. I did generally choose friendly options, but I go down every single one). I'm totally onboard with the idea that this was part of the reason, but if so, I would have liked more acknowledgment of that. As for the reasons of why he’s different, I think a lot of times when people are analyzing a story or character they assume every minute detail must have an explanation, when unless it’s story breaking, it’s not that important. He’s different because he’s different, and who he was before turning seems to have had something to do with that, but the exact details don’t really matter. Likely, as far as story telling, having The Emperor have this legendary past is more satisfying as to why he’s different than him being just some adventurer. Omeluum is also different and we’re short on details for him as well. Omeluum talks about breaking free from his colony through arcane magic, but the minutia of how he did that doesn’t matter. He broke free, and he’s another example that not all illithids are the same. While I generally agree that not everything needs to be drilled down to the tiniest details, I think "Why are they different?" deserves at least a bit more attention. The player character is being presented with choices about using illithid powers, and ultimately about becoming illithid. Knowing why the Emperor and Omeluum are the way they area informs us about our own character's likely fate, and thus is a factor to be weighed when making that decision (and notably, Omeluum does not identify as its previous form; it's just free from the elder brain's control, which I think is a more straightforward situation). The game sort of gets around this by having the Emperor prepare a special tadpole for us, which means we didn't have a typical transformation, either, but having more buildup about how and why he did that would welcome. For example, it seems like he might be interested in having more mindflayers *like him,* free from the control of elder brains, possibly as suggested in the Adversary idea above. He does clearly think he's an improvement over his old self, but he never really talks about the desire to make more people like him outside of thinking it'd improve the odds of defeating the Absolute. If this is an ongoing project of his, I'd like to know more about it. Not even from a "'give me a scientific dissertation on this"' perspective, but just more about what it means to him and for our character. I don't consider this aspect to be story-breaking if it's not there, but it seems like yet another place where I had questions that seemed reasonable to ask but really couldn't be addressed. Frankly, if I weren't already familiar with the idea of how arcane magic interacts with the illithid colonies, I probably would have wanted to ask more about that, too.
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veteran
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veteran
Joined: Oct 2021
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The Emperor remembering the life of Balduran doesn't mean the Emperor identifies as Balduran. It's the player that assumes they're the same.
Of note, the Illithiad was a source book that TSR put out years ago. It was entirely about mind flayers, and it discussed the tendency for some mind flayers to have lingering connections to who their host used to be. Things like tapping fingers on a table thoughtlessly. When this was discovered in a mind flayer, it often led to the community enacting a death sentence. Thus, some mind flayers, when they realized this was happening to them, would attempt to hide it.
It's not an enormous jump to say that some mind flayers remember more and more of their host lives, and it's reasonable to assume that those memories might impact the illithid's behavior and personality.
Mind flayers have always been able to break away from the elder brain. Alhoons are notorious examples.
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apprentice
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apprentice
Joined: Jan 2024
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While I generally agree that not everything needs to be drilled down to the tiniest details, I think "Why are they different?" deserves at least a bit more attention. The player character is being presented with choices about using illithid powers, and ultimately about becoming illithid. Knowing why the Emperor and Omeluum are the way they area informs us about our own character's likely fate, and thus is a factor to be weighed when making that decision (and notably, Omeluum does not identify as its previous form; it's just free from the elder brain's control, which I think is a more straightforward situation). The game sort of gets around this by having the Emperor prepare a special tadpole for us, which means we didn't have a typical transformation, either, but having more buildup about how and why he did that would welcome. For example, it seems like he might be interested in having more mindflayers *like him,* free from the control of elder brains, possibly as suggested in the Adversary idea above. He does clearly think he's an improvement over his old self, but he never really talks about the desire to make more people like him outside of thinking it'd improve the odds of defeating the Absolute. If this is an ongoing project of his, I'd like to know more about it. Not even from a "'give me a scientific dissertation on this"' perspective, but just more about what it means to him and for our character. I don't consider this aspect to be story-breaking if it's not there, but it seems like yet another place where I had questions that seemed reasonable to ask but really couldn't be addressed. Frankly, if I weren't already familiar with the idea of how arcane magic interacts with the illithid colonies, I probably would have wanted to ask more about that, too. Ultimately, I think choosing ceremorphosis is a leap of faith. Trying to remove all the mystery of that process and change undercuts that. Lots of choices that characters make in media or literature come down to a leap of faith because it’s often a powerful storytelling moment. The Emperor remembering the life of Balduran doesn't mean the Emperor identifies as Balduran. It's the player that assumes they're the same. I’ve noticed a lot of players assume he sees himself as Balduran, even though during the Ansur quest he says it’s a name he once answered to (or something to that same effect). That’s just one example. There are other examples in which it’s clear he has left his old life and identity behind even though he still retains memories of his former life. Of note, the Illithiad was a source book that TSR put out years ago. It was entirely about mind flayers, and it discussed the tendency for some mind flayers to have lingering connections to who their host used to be. Things like tapping fingers on a table thoughtlessly. When this was discovered in a mind flayer, it often led to the community enacting a death sentence. Thus, some mind flayers, when they realized this was happening to them, would attempt to hide it.
It's not an enormous jump to say that some mind flayers remember more and more of their host lives, and it's reasonable to assume that those memories might impact the illithid's behavior and personality.
Mind flayers have always been able to break away from the elder brain. Alhoons are notorious examples. Thank you for this bit of info! I’ve seen others mention lore that supports the idea of a renegade illithid, but I’m not familiar enough with all the sources out there to know where to find that information.
Last edited by LittleMonday; 21/01/24 12:04 AM. Reason: Word choice
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veteran
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veteran
Joined: Aug 2020
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While I generally agree that not everything needs to be drilled down to the tiniest details, I think "Why are they different?" deserves at least a bit more attention. The player character is being presented with choices about using illithid powers, and ultimately about becoming illithid. Knowing why the Emperor and Omeluum are the way they area informs us about our own character's likely fate, and thus is a factor to be weighed when making that decision (and notably, Omeluum does not identify as its previous form; it's just free from the elder brain's control, which I think is a more straightforward situation). The game sort of gets around this by having the Emperor prepare a special tadpole for us, which means we didn't have a typical transformation, either, but having more buildup about how and why he did that would welcome. For example, it seems like he might be interested in having more mindflayers *like him,* free from the control of elder brains, possibly as suggested in the Adversary idea above. He does clearly think he's an improvement over his old self, but he never really talks about the desire to make more people like him outside of thinking it'd improve the odds of defeating the Absolute. If this is an ongoing project of his, I'd like to know more about it. Not even from a "'give me a scientific dissertation on this"' perspective, but just more about what it means to him and for our character. I don't consider this aspect to be story-breaking if it's not there, but it seems like yet another place where I had questions that seemed reasonable to ask but really couldn't be addressed. Frankly, if I weren't already familiar with the idea of how arcane magic interacts with the illithid colonies, I probably would have wanted to ask more about that, too. Ultimately, I think choosing ceremorphosis is a leap of faith. Trying to remove all the mystery of that process and change undercuts that. Lots of choices that characters make in media or literature come down to a leap of faith because it’s often a powerful storytelling moment. The problem here is that the story presents us with someone who is entirely capable of explaining to us what is going on and what would happen, and has no reason not to explain it to us. It's not that the information isn't out there, our character just isn't able to ask it. Which undermines the leap of faith idea. Now it's not players making a leap, it's players being denied knowledge they should logically be able to get. We get several conversations with the Emperor, several opportunities to ask about the nature of his transformation and how he is the way he is. We just aren't ever allowed to. That's not mystery, that's frustration.
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apprentice
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apprentice
Joined: Jan 2024
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While I generally agree that not everything needs to be drilled down to the tiniest details, I think "Why are they different?" deserves at least a bit more attention. The player character is being presented with choices about using illithid powers, and ultimately about becoming illithid. Knowing why the Emperor and Omeluum are the way they area informs us about our own character's likely fate, and thus is a factor to be weighed when making that decision (and notably, Omeluum does not identify as its previous form; it's just free from the elder brain's control, which I think is a more straightforward situation). The game sort of gets around this by having the Emperor prepare a special tadpole for us, which means we didn't have a typical transformation, either, but having more buildup about how and why he did that would welcome. For example, it seems like he might be interested in having more mindflayers *like him,* free from the control of elder brains, possibly as suggested in the Adversary idea above. He does clearly think he's an improvement over his old self, but he never really talks about the desire to make more people like him outside of thinking it'd improve the odds of defeating the Absolute. If this is an ongoing project of his, I'd like to know more about it. Not even from a "'give me a scientific dissertation on this"' perspective, but just more about what it means to him and for our character. I don't consider this aspect to be story-breaking if it's not there, but it seems like yet another place where I had questions that seemed reasonable to ask but really couldn't be addressed. Frankly, if I weren't already familiar with the idea of how arcane magic interacts with the illithid colonies, I probably would have wanted to ask more about that, too. Ultimately, I think choosing ceremorphosis is a leap of faith. Trying to remove all the mystery of that process and change undercuts that. Lots of choices that characters make in media or literature come down to a leap of faith because it’s often a powerful storytelling moment. The problem here is that the story presents us with someone who is entirely capable of explaining to us what is going on and what would happen, and has no reason not to explain it to us. It's not that the information isn't out there, our character just isn't able to ask it. Which undermines the leap of faith idea. Now it's not players making a leap, it's players being denied knowledge they should logically be able to get. We get several conversations with the Emperor, several opportunities to ask about the nature of his transformation and how he is the way he is. We just aren't ever allowed to. That's not mystery, that's frustration. So, I don’t think it’s true that The Emperor is entirely capable of explaining to us what’s going on. Just because he underwent his transformation into an illithid, doesn’t mean he possesses the knowledge of why he seems to be so different. It’s such a strange and complex transformation to the body, the mind, possibly the soul, and it’s a transformation that was forced on him. I just don’t see how he could possibly have any real answer to that question. We are able to have a conversation with him early in act 3, in which he talks about having feelings, how he’s capable of feeling sadness, and that not all illithids are the same. This provides some knowledge to the player that illithids have inner lives, or at least this one does, but if they were to ask him why that is, he would likely only be able to offer a best guess. So, Larian could go ahead and include a dialogue option to ask him those questions, but I wouldn’t expect it to be very illuminating. This doesn’t undercut the leap of faith; it reinforces it.
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veteran
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veteran
Joined: Aug 2020
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While I generally agree that not everything needs to be drilled down to the tiniest details, I think "Why are they different?" deserves at least a bit more attention. The player character is being presented with choices about using illithid powers, and ultimately about becoming illithid. Knowing why the Emperor and Omeluum are the way they area informs us about our own character's likely fate, and thus is a factor to be weighed when making that decision (and notably, Omeluum does not identify as its previous form; it's just free from the elder brain's control, which I think is a more straightforward situation). The game sort of gets around this by having the Emperor prepare a special tadpole for us, which means we didn't have a typical transformation, either, but having more buildup about how and why he did that would welcome. For example, it seems like he might be interested in having more mindflayers *like him,* free from the control of elder brains, possibly as suggested in the Adversary idea above. He does clearly think he's an improvement over his old self, but he never really talks about the desire to make more people like him outside of thinking it'd improve the odds of defeating the Absolute. If this is an ongoing project of his, I'd like to know more about it. Not even from a "'give me a scientific dissertation on this"' perspective, but just more about what it means to him and for our character. I don't consider this aspect to be story-breaking if it's not there, but it seems like yet another place where I had questions that seemed reasonable to ask but really couldn't be addressed. Frankly, if I weren't already familiar with the idea of how arcane magic interacts with the illithid colonies, I probably would have wanted to ask more about that, too. Ultimately, I think choosing ceremorphosis is a leap of faith. Trying to remove all the mystery of that process and change undercuts that. Lots of choices that characters make in media or literature come down to a leap of faith because it’s often a powerful storytelling moment. The problem here is that the story presents us with someone who is entirely capable of explaining to us what is going on and what would happen, and has no reason not to explain it to us. It's not that the information isn't out there, our character just isn't able to ask it. Which undermines the leap of faith idea. Now it's not players making a leap, it's players being denied knowledge they should logically be able to get. We get several conversations with the Emperor, several opportunities to ask about the nature of his transformation and how he is the way he is. We just aren't ever allowed to. That's not mystery, that's frustration. So, I don’t think it’s true that The Emperor is entirely capable of explaining to us what’s going on. Just because he underwent his transformation into an illithid, doesn’t mean he possesses the knowledge of why he seems to be so different. It’s such a strange and complex transformation to the body, the mind, possibly the soul, and it’s a transformation that was forced on him. I just don’t see how he could possibly have any real answer to that question. We are able to have a conversation with him early in act 3, in which he talks about having feelings, how he’s capable of feeling sadness, and that not all illithids are the same. This provides some knowledge to the player that illithids have inner lives, or at least this one does, but if they were to ask him why that is, he would likely only be able to offer a best guess. So, Larian could go ahead and include a dialogue option to ask him those questions, but I wouldn’t expect it to be very illuminating. This doesn’t undercut the leap of faith; it reinforces it. It only reinforces the leap if we are aware that that's the state of things. If we can't ask he Emperor directly and be told directly that he doesn't know, then we as players are just being presented with a very knowledgeable individual who reasonably would have insights and not being allowed by the game to ask for those insights. If he doesn't know, that's fine. But he's framing himself as having deep understanding of ceremorphosis and trying to reassure us that changing will be fine, using himself as an example. We should be able to drill him for information, even if the answer is he has no answers.
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stranger
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stranger
Joined: Sep 2023
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If we can't ask he Emperor directly and be told directly that he doesn't know, then we as players are just being presented with a very knowledgeable individual who reasonably would have insights and not being allowed by the game to ask for those insights. These tadpoles are tainted by the Nether, no one can be sure of anything at this point but the most direct answer could be this line: "The Emperor: I've been studying you for a while now. I believe I can trigger the next stage of your tadpole's life cycle while continuing to preserve your independence." ("Meticulous Notes" evokes a kind of assimilation but not sure if it could refer only to Tav/Emperor or Nethertadpole/host too:"[…] how does the presence of another's mind within one's own affect the body? […] If such an experience leaves behind a permanent memory, is that part of your mind still truly your own?") There's a lot of interesting ideas to exploit and I would like to play the OP alternative version if a campaign editor came out, but I'm not fan of the trust/distrust feature. The Emperor looks like a guy with 200 IQ who finds no interest in discussing with the children we are or spending time explaining/justifying his behaviour to inferior beings. He does only when he is forced and then, yield only partial information. Everything he does or says serves a purpose, strong motivations would be required to force him to become more present during the adventure because as it now appears, he only reacts to things that may threat his goal and for optimizing chances of success by coddling the avatar to embrace at least partial-ceremorphosis, nothing else matters. Just another opinion to add to the pile though. Despite multiple run (and even datamining), we all continue to interpret him in a very different way.
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