Larian Studios Forums Baldur's Gate III Baldur's Gate III - Story & Character Discussion [END SPOILS WARNING] Addressing Karlach (PLEASE PUT SPOILERS IN TAGS)

I don't mind her ending, it's fine. It's the end, not every end needs to be happy. Sad endings works just as well. Arthur Morgan died horribly and that was a better ending than any of the ones this game offers. I rather mind that everything you do up to that point is just so... empty. Find a random thing, bring it to the Smith, get some exposition.... Hardly the stuff that the not-last-minute Origin characters get. Say what you will about Wyll, at least there's things to do with him. Even last minute fan service Halsin has a better quest and more to do than Karlach.

This game is the first in this genre in a very long time that completely refrains from annoying collectibles and quest structures like; 'Collect items 1/5' and yet, Karlach's is exactly that.

The fact that she's the obvious stereotypical lesbian interest has nothing to do with this. In fact. The game panders to every special interest group and yet, every such group has someone complaining there needs to be more for theirs. If it were any other character with such an ending, someone else from another group would've had the exact same complaint.

I'm currently surprised there hasn't been a complaint about vegetarian auto-select options for camping.

Karlach is criminally under developed and needs more content. I'm thinking they'll add more to it in a future dlc

Yes, many think that, but there is little to suggest as much. If the actors are getting called back for addons or rewrites - they'd be all over the internet with that information.

The problem is bg3 isn't red dead redemption. The stories, games, genre's, and playstyle is completely different between the 2 games. Red dead 1 and 2 are master classes in what they do. They tell a linear story about a cowboy character and we as the player are along for the ride. That's not what bg3 is the whole game is built around player choice and action driving the narrative forward as the player sees fit. Karlachs story and ending flies in the face of that whole thought process. Until the last epilogue update karlachs ending was at best dead by the end of the week. When you meet karlach she is dieing and looking for a cure. When you finish the game she's still dieing and still looking for that cure. The player had 0 impact on her story. Bg3 isn't linear and that's what makes her story so hard to accept for alot of people.

That seems to be a bomb thing. "Find 3 random magical items." is much the same - though this seems to be a last minute change too, since you seem to have needed special items for him before.


Ha! That's a good one. I had a similar thought recently when auto-select chose a very liquid diet (all wine and a sausage) - not a good choice for a recovering alcoholic, I assume.

Well, that *is* true, but you can resolve that bit welll before even meeting Karlach. Not to mention that Gale then has another quest in Act 3 with multiple things to do and multiple proper endings to his story. Comparing the two companion quests, Gale has a time-and-a-half as much content *in the first act*. Although he doesn't burn down tollhouses, granted.


I'll not debate the differences between Red Dead Redemption and Baldur's Gate, I'm very well aware; it was merely an example of how a character's death can be a fitting end to a story. I could have mentioned Mass Effect instead, but... well that wasn;t a good ending and then I'd have to defend that. Shepard dieing however, is not the reason for that ending to fail, is all I will say on the matter.

And I agree that we're led to believe we can find a solution for Karlach. And we can't. Not even Raphael offers this, which I find baffling. Raphael is supposed to offer us a tempting deal, and unless you're heavily invested in Githyanki society, he doesn't. We're also led to believe Zariel is important to the wider story..... But she's not. She's mentioned more than any other deity-type-character, but she has no stake in the conflict whatsoever.

Which in turn means that Karlach, Wyll and Astarion have no ties to the main plot. That's fine when they're companions, but they're supposed to be main characters, too. At least for Wyll you can argue he's there to save the city, but why are Karlach and Astarion even there?

Her doing her final thing and die at the end of that thing is actually fine with me. It would've been great if there was a mechanic that if you burn her up too quick, she wouldn't even make it to the end game. Because, as it is, if you skip the thing with Dammon entirely, she'll live to see the end regardless.

My issue is not that the player is led to believe that they can find a cure, it's that they cannot actively look for it. If I am playing on a friendship path with Karlach, it just makes my character look like completely uninterested in her fate.

It's all those questions you cannot ask: when you meet the gnomes working on hell engines and ask nothing, meet an experience wizard like Elminster and ask nothing (or Gale, he has been a high level wizard before losing his power, can't you try to research something together?), when Shadowheart gains enough levels to get divine intervention and ask nothing. And then it turns out that a full body transformation apparently fixes the engine. Which maybe, if you researched a polymorph spell, could have helped without costing a soul.

There is a difference between a 'tried your best, yet it was not enough' and 'didn't try much, because why' storytelling. For example, Enderal (a game based on Skyrim engine) has no good endings. But throughout the game the protagonist keeps fighting and looking for a solution.

Yeah, I see what you're getting at, and I'd see way more solutions as well. Like I mentioned, a deal with Raphael would solidify Karlach's motivations to see the main plot through. But, there's also no reason she can't hang out with Hope, for instance. .

But if you let me pursue that goal all game long, only to realize that 'vicotry was never an option', I'd get even more frustrated with it.

That's the other big problem is not only does the world the games set in have answers to karlachs problem but the game itself has answers to her problem. The player is barred from so much as asking about it from any of the numerous options that should be able to help karlach.

But none of this would be a problem outside of plot holes of course if the game wasnt built around the player and their actions. The game literally allows you to either be the knight in shining armor running in to save the day or a mass murdering monster. But in all those options saving karlach isn't on the table. Her story feels like some grimdark story id see out of warhammer or something not a fantasy game set in faerun. Again you can pick any linear story game or movie and I'd agree that karlachs story would be a tragic master piece. Like John Marston and Arthur dieing at the end of their games with no real happy ending. But those are linear games we aren't suppose to have an impact on the game at large. Bg3 is defined by the choices of the player and in karlachs case the choices the player makes result in jack fucking shit at the end of it all.

Well, that's where we differ, I suppose. I'd rather have a good story than a profound choice in who gets what destiny. I even get frustrated when characters [Like Wyll] leave it all up to you. Just, make your own damn choices, dammit.

And plot holes aside - I think her story works well in that, she comes to terms with her impending death. Choosing to 'live free or die hard' is rather powerful - something I personally struggle with, living on borrowed time as it is.

But there is very little in terms of helping her get there, either. And, well, dying - especially choosing to do so - is an extremely lonely endeavour. Loneliness being her biggest gripe with her time in the hells, I rather find *that* aspect lacking. Sure, you can take her to dinner if you romance her, but as just a friend there is nothing there. Compare that to all the obnoxious dialogue you get with Mizora - on a normal playthrough and not skipping through that dialogue, I think you're looking at half an hour's worth - if not more of JSUT Mizora. And she's not even your companion or friend, or anything.

"Respect choice and don't say no"

Except when you want to railroad your story in a choice driven game, I suppose.


Edit. Put the video in spoiler tags since the preview was so... big

If you want to look at it that way then take all those plot holes into account. Since youre ok with things as they are now you can add on how cruel it is to walk away from the gondians without bothering to ask them to so much as look at her heart. That also makes Dammon look lazy or cruel since he has access to better metal in act 3 but does fuck all with it. Gale could make a call after the game to eliminate who can literally wish this away but just won't cause he'd need a nap after.
To say karlachs story as it sits is fine is to willfully ignore all the massive plotholes that tease the player into thinking there would be way to save her only to pull the rug out at the last second.

Basically this. This is exactly how all of act 3 feels it makes me feel very little empathy for the rest of them.

If this refers to God-Gale. In his Origin, he and Karlach can chat about him helping her out. He is apparently only allowed to do so, if she prays to him. She says, that she'd consider it. So, they did think about that point. Overall, hellish things don't seem to be his expertise as a human wizard. I think it's one of the few topics he doesn't jump in to discuss.

I was more talking about him phoning in a favor to elminster since we ya know saved his city and gale has 6 months to find him. But as the video points out emitter would've needed a nap so that's clearly a no go.
But again there's another plot hole since gales whole gimmick is knowing things and even as his origin you can't even look into something that'd help karlach out. Only if he gets god like abilities, and only if she prays to him, and only after he pulls enough power together. It all just feels like karlachs whole story was a tacked on after thought with so much more planned which mskes what larian said all the more infuriating.

The moment with the Steel Watchers was one of the worst for me. I didn't see it on my first playthrough since she wasn't in the city with me, so I didn't even know about the connection, but hitting that moment on my second run, it felt so much like the game was yanking my chain.

Like, you're telling me that the Steel Watchers are running on NEW AND IMPROVED INFERNAL ENGINES THAT FUNCTION IN THIS PLANE, and everyone just shrugs and moves on? Just because the robot says that Karlach has an older model? That's not just a long-shot lead like "Can we try to get a Wish spell together?" or "Could Divine Intervention maybe work here?" That was such a direct and practical connection to the exact problem that Karlach has that it is frankly insulting that we can't follow up on that further.

And I say this as someone who really liked Karlach's emotional arc. I loved many of her actress's performances, and even the moment of Wyll volunteering to go to Avernus with her, or the PC's option to do the same, felt like really powerful moments.

Except that in order to create those moments, the game requires you to apparently have blinders on, while simultaneously dangling "The Steel Watchers run on infernal engines that don't overheat" in front of you. The game seems to be aware that you'd be interested in finding a cure, and it's like it has to go out of its way to prevent you from pursuing any path that might lead to it.

Hell, I'm even okay with the idea that the party concludes "Well, if we take you back to Avernus and break into Zariel's fortress, we can fix you there," and Karlach is still reluctant to return to literal hell in case something goes wrong and she just ends up trapped there again. But at least instead of us clawing at the walls trying to find a path forward, it'd be about staring at the path forward and trying to convince her to take it. I don't think I'd be bothered by "Could we develop a variant of True Polymorph to rules-lawyer around this?" if there was already a logical solution on the table.

I'm by no means ok with how it is, and I agree very much on the plotholes. I just mean to say thatI enjoy a story where solving a problem isn't so much the objective but dealing with the inevitable is. Less fight, more talk, as it were.

I believe that's what they went for, albeit poorly.

Yeah… “poorly” is definitely the key word here. If they really wanted to make the quest about dealing with the inevitable, then maybe they shouldn’t have dangled so many potential solutions above our heads before going “haha nope! Sorry!” Instead, it should feel like there actually *aren’t* any other options. I hope they do at least something to fix this, because I literally can’t bring myself to pick up the game now T_T

Oh, it wouldn't keep me from playing the game, although I've been doing it so much I'm kind of done with it as of now. But, you can always go the 'Hey I'm the good guy, I'm gonna help this hero of the Coast and those goody paladins hunt a devil' and be done with it. Saves Wyll from getting all horny, too.

I have never progressed beyond Act 2 after learning about Karlach's fate beforehand. And if things stay as they are, Act 2 is my terminus forever.