Larian Studios Forums Baldur's Gate III Baldur's Gate III - Story & Character Discussion The romance with Astarion pulls you over to the "dark side".

Ah, I was wondering if the Ascended path had a "bad ruler" line somewhere, to oppose "good ruler" Astarion when he goes to govern the spawn in the Underdark with or without the player. It surprised me how grim that particular epilogue was, it must be one of the most unhappy endings you can possibly get.

I like that Spawn Astarion gets comfortable with the darkness inside and around him, while also finding some joy in inspiring people for a change. It's a bit like Ascended Astarion is a spot of darkness in the sun, while Spawn Astarion is a bit of light in the darkness - Gale even calls him a "ray of metaphorical sunshine amidst the darkness" which I might have quoted before but it's just adorable so there .... XD I hope that maybe Astarion's romanced dialogue also gets expanded. It feels like there is a part missing - and you again have to make a choice between hugging him and other good interactions ... really.


Ha, yes! XD It's probably the ending I like least. (Along with the Underdark one) When he talks with Ulma after killing the spawn, it sounds like he made that big, hard choice that was ultimately the right one - but it rings a bit shallow because he passed judgement over others that by rights should have also included him and the other six spawn. (You can't tell me that Petras won't do stupid things in the near future - and Leon and Dal will probably be at each other's throats very soon too.) And it's the one that makes no sense to me.

But the first time I reached that point I wondered if choosing to kill the prisoners didn't have the potential to backfire horribly, simply because of how the ritual was explained before. X)... Apart from the whole thing lacking logic of course. Did Cazador have to open all cells, each time he threw a new person into one of them? That does not sound like a very clever locking mechanism for a prison system.

The "you want what's best for me" video.
I wished for an option to a) threaten to just blow up Cazador with the orb in that situation or b) tell him that this trick doesn't even work for Tara anymore. ^^ It just begs for a cat-dad response.

Wow, an Astarion thread, and I haven't commented!

Look, I love this whole thread. It really shows the Astarion writer did his job. You can tell when a writer is good when the evil option is just as enjoyed as the hero option and that there's so much interpretation into the character itself that it spawns debate.

I've read through a good deal of the comments on here and wanted to provide my thoughts as someone who loves both Ascended and Spawn:

SPAWN:

My first playthrough, I was dead-set on doing the ritual. I wanted Astarion to have everything he wanted; freedom in the sun, power, Cazador's death, all of it.
So I went through with it. What's 7000 souls? I couldn't care less, wasn't a dilemma for my Tav.

Problem came from how our relationship had evolved up till then. Through him letting his guard down and confessing his weaker moments to me, I started to see a person who would never unshackle himself from his master as long as he was afraid to admit that power wasn't everything and that sometimes you just need to grow emotionally.
Up until the ritual, I saw that in him.
Once the ritual was done, I realized I made a huge mistake.

If you yearn for Astarion to get past his fears in a healthy way, having him go through the ritual is not the way to do it (in my opinion).
All it does is reinforce his preconceived notions that the only thing he needs to work through to emotionally "cure" his fears of Cazador and life itself is to feed him more power; the very "cure" Cazador was seeking.

I didn't want that for him. He's better than Cazador and this would lower his standing to his level. So I reloaded and convinced him to not do the ritual.

I was so much more satisfied with that ending. Astarion makes the ultimate stride on his path to truly healing from Cazador and finds that being an equal with someone you love is worth more than being more powerful than everyone. The fear itself isn't something to be detested but something to grow from. He may still have it, but it fuels his desire to live and eventually, it won't cripple him. He'll be stronger than ever at that point.

The graveyard scene is the epitamy of that. He's moving on from his fears to new and unknown horizons with the person that he loves most. Of course he'll have moments of regret. But life isn't worth living if there's nothing to fear.

ASCENDED:

Now, those were my thoughts with Spawn. Since my experience was so satisfying, I couldn't dream that Ascended would be just as good. But I was dead wrong.

When you create a character with Ascension in mind, a whole new experience happens. My character was ruthless in her need for power and Astarion was her perfect mate. We didn't let anything get in our way and we bulldozed through everything as the perfect symbiosis of power and danger.

When it came to the ritual, there wasn't a second thought. Take the power. Rule the world. We would do it together.

Then he asks you submit to his will. Why wouldn't I? This form is glorious and dark. This is wrong in such a delicious way. Damn right I'll get on my knees.

The Ascension romance is so dark and sexy that when we roamed around the world (and I used the mirror to make myself look like his spawn which totally helps with flavor), I realized that while this relationship is far too co-dependant to be anything healthy, it was just the right amount of twisted to be satisfying in a much much different way.

Plus, I can't be the only one who finds the thought of you sitting naked on his lap while he rules the world on a throne of bones and blood just sickeningly satisfying.

_________

My experience overall is that the Spawn ending is for the romantics. If you want a romance where you aid in the healing of Astarion's fears in a way that will empower him over time to accept who he is, you go with Spawn.

The Ascension ending is for passionate people. If you want to feel the full force of Astarion's ambitions and have him display how deep his feelings are for you and himself, you go Ascension.

Overall, I don't believe Ascension gives him more freedom; he's as much a slave to Cazador's power than ever being that he becomes like him in so many ways. But why should that be a bad thing?

Regarding Jaheira's scroll - she says it could restore her youth, but she doesn't want to be like her enemies like Irenicus, etc. who sought eternal life. Whether it's just a one-time rejuvenation or some variant of immortality is not entirely clear from her lines. There are three small threads on other resources where players are trying to figure out what to do with it and how to use it, and have also expressed a desire to use it on Astarion or the Karlach. It seems that just some too practical players don't get into the topic of philosophical dialogs about "how it's right not to want to live forever" and think that since there is some cool ritual in the game, they should use it.


Cool sketch Astarion's intonations from the actor come out pretty good! And Santa who gives a pact with demons for Christmas....

Haha, makes sense! Damn, and I can't, my fangs don't come up on him... But now I can taste test food - all sorts of controversial characters, like red hats, when they seem to be a reasonable race, but I'm not sure if they're tasty enough (don't eat red hats, they're not tasty).


Yes, help from Astarion. I bought the game right after release, I guess it was still glitchy then. Well it's good that there's actually a warning.


Is the cat a familiar to the wizard? There's even a white kitty in town who asks: "Are you my mommy?" You can answer yes, but you can't take it, alas.

Kasador can control all the spawn in his field of vision. I don't think they'll be able to do anything when he opens the cage.


Oh, really? Your Gale is very serious and logical, he is simply impervious to even the most charming manipulations

And to be honest, I had a sincere reaction to it all in the first pass at all "Oh no, Astarion is upset... Sweetheart, do you really believe me? Of course I want only the best for you!" - any of these lines would do

How interesting! I had the same feeling of a huge mistake, only in reverse, after I talked him out of the ritual the first time. I too rebooted and helped perform the ritual.


Indeed, Astarion's story can be interpreted and perceived in very different ways. Thanks for describing your vision, I now understand why, when I said that I wish there was a healing option for Astarion (without Ascension) in the game, some people answered me that this is his "good way", i.e. giving up the ritual. It's good that you described this in more detail and clarity.

A lot seems to depend on the "angle of view", whether the player is looking at the story from a psychological and philosophical perspective, or from a "practical", purely rational point of view. For me, healing is first and foremost about getting rid of the spawn state, it's about giving Astarion back what was taken from him so that he can enjoy the sun, not feel hungry, so that he is no longer vulnerable and safe. I saw his fear as a natural emotion of someone who has experienced such a terrible trauma. As something he would only be able to overcome in time, after he had destroyed the Cazador and gotten back what had been taken from him. But the first priority for me had always been Astarion's well-being, comfort, and safety, and time didn't matter to an immortal vampire; Astarion would have enough time to rethink, to accept himself with all his dark and light sides.

I perceived these two options as the egoistic option of Astarion's liberation and personal happiness for two (Ascension) and the option of altruistic self-sacrifice so that 7000 souls would have the right to life and could also choose their own destiny. It was interesting to read the other point of view.

By the way, the theme of power in Ascended Astarion was always in the background for me too. If Astarion wants more power later - okay, we'll plan how to organize it all more successfully, if it turns out to be possible to "relax" him, satisfied with ensuring his own safety, and spend time enjoying each other - an ideal romantic version of a happy life.


Yes, fantasies of Astarion on the throne are sure to visit everyone who ascended him


I, as a player, would like it better if both options were equal, Astarion-Ascended and Astarion-Elf, instead of Astarion-Spawn (so that it would be possible to rid him of his spawn state in another way, without sacrifices, to cure him of vampirism). Then I could have gone both ways too, creating characters of the appropriate alignment for them. But I also discovered and liked a somewhat unusual version of the roleplay - initially kind and somewhat naive Tav, who gradually changes her views on the world under the influence of Astarion, and eventually helps him ascended. This gives some additional realism to the story, makes my character even more alive for me than in a classic single alignment roleplay. Before in games it was hard to imagine such a variant and even more so to realize it.


Ascension gives much more freedom - Astarion won't burn in the sun, he won't suffer stomach aches from hunger, he won't be the object of ridicule as an outcast, he'll be able to see his reflection in the mirror and get what he's always wanted. He will give Cazador the retribution he deserves. And he is completely unlike Cazador, even if he sometimes contemplates it, and resemblance to Cazador is a sore subject for Astarion. He has surpassed Cazador in everything, both as a Vampire Lord and as a person, it may take many years for Astarion to free himself and heal from the pain he has endured, but it is bound to happen

Him accepting the darkness inside him is exactly what I mentioned earlier - integrating the shadow self. He does it in both paths, though completely differently. He reinvents himself in the process and finds his own thing to do. When he's with Tav we don't see that, since he just tags along with them and it actually looks like it's better for him to be single when he remains a spawn. It doesn't matter how much someone else loves you, if you don't feel good with yourself then you will not heal. That special someone only becomes your buffer, but once they're gone you'll relapse. They also travel together, living the same adventurer's lifestyle, but don't really get to experience the true test of a relationship, which is settling down and seeing how you fare with the mundane and responsibilities together. And as he says in the epilogue that sounds boring to him.

As a side note, him becoming a hero feels strange and unrealistic to me. Too soon, too extreme. Also seems like he's trying to become another Wyll.


The caged spawn had a different life than him and his siblings. He believes they're far too gone to salvage anything there, so it makes sense he'd want to spare his siblings only, as dumb as they may be. He also has a connection with them, unlike with the others. Maybe it's his way to repay them for being a crappy brother before the tadpole business.


It seems like the staff was granting the power to control things and people, whichever way he wanted. He could use it separately for caged spawn, the main spawn and Astarion. Astarion was also able to take it from him and use it however he pleased.


Maybe he will cure some of his fears, but he will cripple himself in the process. When he has so many physical restrictions it will affect his mind and wellbeing. It's horrible to lose something you loved having. Regret is more painful than failure. Frankly I don't buy the notion that purposefully making yourself weaker makes you safer. He's living in a world with magic, demons, monsters, monster hunters, etc. If you're not strong you'll likely end up as prey. This ending is just too idealistic, naively romantic and sugary for me. What if they travel around, end up attacked, the night is almost over and the only place nearby where they can hide is someone's house and they don't want to invite him inside? He's toast. He will always have to fear the sun, running water, monster hunters, other vampires, that Tav might leave him one day, etc. He'll struggle forever and it sounds wretched to me. This outcome would have worked much better if he wasn't a vampire.

In the spawn path they are just as codependent, if not more. Astarion gives up his dreams and needs for Tav, abandoning himself, deep down he'll always hold Tav accountable for that choice. It might sour what they have. Love alone is not enough to keep a relationship going, you need to have your own goals, passions, achievements, and so on. He has nothing going on, besides being with Tav.
As for Tav - they have to accomodate their whole lifestyle around Astarion's disabilities - sleep during the day, which is unhealthy and exhausting after a while, travel avoiding rivers, always have to worry about what time it is, find food sources for Astarion, because constantly being his blood bag is also not sound, etc.

AA actually realises that power is not everything some time after the ritual. He says it's a lonely life, and he misses having someone next to him. When Tav is his vampiric spouse, he admits they complete him, and that all that power would have been nothing without them. He also matures emotionally in that path, and he doesn't have to deal with any drawbacks like his spawn self does.
Even right after the final battle he has no problem with you not listening to his suggestion and forsaking world domination.

He has everything but considers Tav his greatest treasure, while Spawn Astarion has nothing but Tav.


I disagree. Fear is actually the biggest blocker in life that prohibits us from having a much better life than we could have.


Shame he only says that to evil Durge. He looks amazing on a throne!

[img]https://i.redd.it/astarion-ascended...3ddc776371d1b6d2ab5f9949ba37a9738ebfb3a9[/img]

[img]https://pbs.twimg.com/media/F-FfApAakAASUE0?format=jpg&name=4096x4096[/img]


Aptly put!


Nah, he fully enjoys his power and admits he's finally living a life that's worth living. Astarion was always jealous of him, but after ascending he has even more than Cazador ever had. When you don't ascend Astarion he says that Cazador will always be a part of him. Meanwhile, AA treats him like a relic from the past. He's not even physically linked to him anymore, because his body is changed and the blood composition is different. His scar is also no longer a reminder of his torture, but of the gift he received and what allowed him to keep Tav by his side. He doesn't burn down the palace, but refurbishes and repurposes it for his own needs, and makes new, positive memories with Tav in there. Cazador copied everything from Vellioth, while Astarion erases the existence of his former master.

Yeah, he did it nicely, and nailed his manipulative nature. I love the fact that Gale learned from him and started using his tricks against him, but still can't resist him. Reminds me of that banter in the game where he admits that he'd learned to enjoy chaos thanks to Astarion. They have a fun rivalry dynamic from the beginning.


That's odd, you should be able to bite him!


These dialogues are still not working it seems. I tested it in patch 5, even respecced him to a bard and cleric and he had no romantic lines when using healing spells.


Yes, you can summon several types of familiars. We really need an option to adopt that kitty!


Basics are very important. Then there's the whole body-mind-soul dynamic. Astarion is not only suffering from mental but also physical trauma. AA has all the time in the world to heal his mind, once his body is working the way he'd like.

As spawn he'll always struggle physically. Plus his body is cold and he smells of undeath and uses perfumes to hide it. Not a very appealing feature.


I have a Tav like that in mind I might create one day.

In the unromanced ending? No, I didn't get that impression at all. He just started to understand basic Pen & Paper morality: If it's a "bad guy" you may stab it and even get a reward for the deed.

It's a bit unfortunate that Astarion got a pretty short romanced epilogue, so we'll never know. Fortunately I have two versions of it and most of the adventuring-type epilogues seem to be synced to some extend. In his Origin Astarion also rediscovers the darkness for himself, though it is never detailed what that means exactly. Gale's adventuring type dialogue says that their living arrangements took some getting used to (that's Adventuring-Spawnstarion specific) but "ray of sunshine". He's glad for a chance to see the world through Astarion's (Tav's) eyes and to have left his more settled life behind, they dealt with at least one serious injury during their adventures, have both interests outside of each other's company and apparently plunder a lot of things. While this is specific to one potential partner, a similar life should be possible with any Tav. That you can only test a relationship with a proper, settled lifestyle also sounds very narrow minded and does not account for many of the challenges of a settled life also being present simply by sharing a life with someone, maybe especially when you cannot really escape each other's company in certain moments.

Back to companion Astarion. I think the "find a way to walk the sun again" option is most fitting for the moment, since it seems the most pressing issue at the time of the conversation. That doesn't mean this decision has to determine the rest of their lives. At some point it can stop being a priority - and maybe settling down doesn't sound so dull anymore, once he had a chance to see more of the world.


That sounds like an excuse he made up to console himself - and most likely to support the player in their decision, so they don't feel bad.


That is such an insane exaggeration. I feel the only ones who turn Spawnstarion into a squishy, codependent princess are the ones who don't like the ending and *want* Spawnstarion to be weak. (This whole infighting is ridiculous.) Sunlight isn't a problem, direct sunlight is. Petras is fine before Astarion shoves him into the window, on the dock only the skin exposed to the sun is burning up. Sex on the beach under the smouldering midday sun might be out of the question but a nice north-facing room with big windows should be fine, even a cloudy day should be fine, an umbrella or a cloak with good coverage should do the trick. The same with running water, burns like acid, but when don't you search a bridge to cross a river? Rivers in general can be dangerous in and of themselves. Human Tav is vulnerable while they sleep, elves don't have that problem. Days are generally longer than the amount of sleep one needs (nights can be too), so completely shifting the sleep cycle is also an exaggeration. I'll take Gale's word for it, living with an undead "takes some getting used to" but that's it. In this particular setting I think that Astarion not being able to taste Gale's cooking or that Gale loves art and poetry, while Astarion hates both due to Cazador are much bigger hurdles to overcome. But at least they are both into fibre crafts now ...

Yes, some people furnish their whole lives around their allergies, other just find a way to deal with them and live on. Astarion strikes me very much as the latter type.

It's also ridiculous to imply that just because they (as a couple whoever the romance partner is) will forever have nobody but each other. Maybe at the end of the story but not even that is necessarily true - in endings with Gale, Shart and Wyll you can instantly end up with a family and possibly a social circle.


Both of this is very black and white thinking, life in utter fear is horrible but life without freedom isn't good either. Things need to be balanced, but still there are always things to fear. How you deal with your fear makes the difference. Do you horde weapons and meet every possible precaution so you are powerful enough to face down every possible threat? I'd call this a fearful mindset and that is what I see in AA and vampires in general. Or do you keep a level of general safety and are confident enough in yourself, your ability to deal with stuff, and your social network that you don't need to horde all that power? I mean, yes, Astarion had to run from the docks, but it didn't kill him. He got himself out of the situation and eventually also gets himself out of the mindset that his problems make him something lesser. That is fear conquered, it is no longer a blocker for him.


Aren't romantics the passionate people? It's romantics after all who scour graveyards for corpses to create a new creature from their remains.


He is very logical, he is INT-based after all. He is also both a "fool for love" and a cat-dad - all things in balance. (And I think he appreciates it, if his love interest can double as fun science experiment. Totally the type to end up with a monster boyfriend/girlfriend.) I generally love the conversation, it has so many fun branches. The one when you admit you are scared of him is cute too. ^^

That’s the reason, I assume.. But that romance scene is great, anyways, I love it. And I love our dark fantasies!


This part could have been indeed fleshed out a little better. Oh, that you mention it, I would really have liked to see tears on my Tavs face, just once, how cute it would have looked on him. I love to see Tavs reactions and facial expressions.

It’s a video I edited while using mods, it’s on the channel, but you only can see it with an account due to age restriction. I am not sure, if you got my private message. If there is a possibility to send the video elsewhere, I would gladly like to do it.


100 % agree! I felt the same. Him becoming a good person is extremely rushed. The ritual scene, where he is crying so damn heart-breaking was so unbearable sad. I cried and felt for his pain. As if he has lost something or someone, mourning about, that it will never come back. And it never came back. It felt so empty. As if he has lost his (vampiric) self and turned into someone else.

A poll (125.556 votes) on youtube says 80 % of the players choose Astarion’s good route and 20 % of the players choose his evil route. And I am sure of this 20 % also some primarily choose the ascended route to avoid the „dock scene“. If Astarion gets a cure.. and/or the good route becomes better… the 80 % will increase.

The lonely Astarion spawn is even harder... And, of course, when playing with the unascended is haunted by a sense of helplessness, not only in a practical sense, but also in an emotional sense. Astarion suspects that Tav might betray him and leave (there's no way to prove otherwise, because it's no longer a matter of "lack of lines"). He's adjusting to Tav. He's really trying to act "like Will", i.e. like a "classic romantic guy", he doesn't dare express himself in a way that is characteristic of himself. I felt guilt talking to him very often. "Helplessness-rage-guilt" are the basic underlying emotions that dominate during the "romantic walk" with Astarion Spawn. Even love becomes too painful and not at all "healthy". Although "officially" unhealthy love is considered to be a relationship with the Ascended.


Ha, and their life together with AA starts with a renovation at the castle, just like a classic couple should after a wedding.


Weakening yourself will make you... weaker. As Captain Hindsight would say. It can only work the other way around in DnD, with a kind DM who is sure to give you a bunch of rewards for altruism and lead you to a good, fairy-tale ending. It's good that the writers don't try to deliberately deceive the player and "promise a fairy tale", the game clearly makes it clear that nothing good is going to happen (compare the entry in the diary about Astarion after refusing the ritual, and the entry about Will's father when he breaks the contract with Mizora - in the second case it's clear that the Duke can still be saved, but in the case of Astarion, it's like a very fat hint about the need for a reload). If the player feels like everything is fine and they feel good about it, then a naively romanticized ending is likely to work.


My first thought is that Tav should rush in and kill the owners of the house with lightning speed (speed potion, action surge) in order to let Astarion in. I realize this is a rhetorical question, I just want to hint that being "good and kind" while constantly having to protect Astarion the Spawn probably won't work. Ascended, like Astarion with a larvae in his head, walks quietly during the day and does not arouse suspicion (only vampire "experts" can identify him, but most people just see him as a white-skinned elf). We'll have to deal not only with monster hunters, but also with random witnesses. We'll have to get our hands dirty anyway.


This would be a full-fledged version of the "second path" for Astarion. The Ascended would eventually become much more powerful, but he would have to pay the price, and Astarion-Elf would simply become free and be able to start a new life.


Indeed, even more so. Astarion has lost everything for Tav, he has nothing but Tav, he is attached to her in some ways even forced. Tav is forced to help him and cannot leave him because, "suddenly he will be lost without her". After the Ascension, Astarion no longer needs anyone, he can get along fine on his own, but he wants to be with Tav. Tav has nothing stopping her from going her own way either, but she wants to be with Astarion forever and voluntarily agrees to be his consort. Dependency vs mutual desire.


The comparison of the spawn's condition with disability has also occurred to me. Talking about self-acceptance in this way evokes associations, as if a person who lost his sight, for example, instead of an operation for 7000$ was offered to accept and love himself blind, arguing that it would be better for him.


Yes, this is so positive!
Found some cute images of the Ascendant on the throne (and just in the castle) in my collection of Astarion pics too.


And to add to the previous topic of the adorable manipulator:

Well, can't you do anything to get that facial expression to change to this:


It seemed to me that he might now want to show off at the camp in a more revealing outfit with an open back. Astarion has a huge wardrobe (when it was possible to buy nice clothes in Baldur), but in the past I always suggested only closed clothes, I was sure he wouldn't want to show off his scars to others, but now it seems he doesn't think so anymore


Yes, well said!


Oh, I apologize, I inadvertently used a common expression in my language, which is a play on words and does not translate well into English. "Fangs can't come up on him" is a derivative of "hand can't come up on him", which means literally "I can't do any damage to him". I meant I can't bite him, because sinking my fangs into his neck, hurting his delicate white skin.... There's some psychological barrier between "I'd bite you" and doing the actual act, in my case not overcome Astarion made some totally non-biting vampire for himself


But it's nice to listen, to fantasize


I love the Astarion and kitties-themed fan art!


We can think of Maslow's pyramid, which describes human needs and prioritizes them in order of importance:

Steps (from bottom to top):
1. Physiological needs
2. Need for security
3. Need for love/ belonging to something
4. Need for respect
5. Need for knowledge
6. Aesthetic needs
7. Need for self-actualization

The last three levels: "cognition", "aesthetic" and "self-actualization" are generally referred to as the Need for Self-Expression (Need for Personal Growth).

Without the fulfillment of the first two needs, the others lose importance. No one thinks about self-actualization when they are starving or in grave danger. It seems to me that caring for the one you love should include the ability to prioritize. You can't do everything at once, you have to do the main thing and then try to take care of the rest.


And it can be a special experience. Evolving and changing your character, getting away from the usual framework allows you to enjoy the game in a special way.

Yeah, that would make the character even more alive. Unless it's probably technically difficult.


Unfortunately, I didn't get the message. The forum is crashing a lot today (at least for me), it's all "bad gateway", maybe that's why. I will try to write to you too, maybe it will work.


This scene is very heavy. And as I began to realize how wrong I was and where this was all leading, this scene "connected" with all the consequences of that choice. Astarion's heartbreaking tears in the beginning - his pain and humiliation in the dock scene at the end. And in between, sort of, "romance." I'm afraid that the words and expressions that could most accurately convey my attitude to such a "romantic story" are clearly inadmissible for use on the forum.


I'm really glad I spoilered that scene rather than getting into it. For me, too, that scene (and of course the very fact that there is no healing), was originally the main motivation to help Astarion ascended. But now I like my cute Lord with pointy ears so much that even if the Larians fix that scene, I'll still only play it that way. Unless they suddenly work out the option with full healing, it would be interesting to go through with that one (but that seems almost unbelievable to me, not even worth waiting for).

And how can you see the world if you can never see the sun?


Honestly, I don't like the ending, yes, but I don't consider him "soft" or "weak". He's strong as a person, "vulnerable" is a better word in my opinion. Well, if you put yourself in Tav's shoes, you'll freak out over him, simply because there's no way to not freak out over him under those circumstances, maybe it'll even be too "intrusive" to help, maybe Astarion will even feel bad about it. It still won't be the happiest relationship as a result.


Allergies is too weak a comparison, in my opinion. The spawn's condition is much worse than some allergies (unless you meant the metaphor and I just misunderstood due to my poor English).


But it works! It works in life, in any situation where a person is forced to be in a rather dangerous environment. After all, it's the kind of person who can survive when a character who is calm, harmonious and philosophical about the world dies. This "realist mindset" turns on itself as soon as you realize that the game is realistic, life-like and no one will give you a "sweet life" just for "good deeds" and for the fact that "you are so wonderful". I'm more referring to Astarion, specifically Tav, like, nothing is threatened, on the contrary, cackling and glorifying the "heroism" of the player character on the background of Astarion's misfortune only causes more anger.

And by the way, why is it that people like, say, Elminster, can have weapons, and quite powerful weapons, but Astarion can't? Why no one ever tells a high-level famous wizard that it's time for him to stop being afraid and put powerful artifacts on the shelf? Because he's "good" and he's supposed to? There are many "fighters against evil" on Faerûn with just such a mindset. And that's the order of the day. But Astarion has to put up with it, not to take power, not to return what he has taken, not to be able to enjoy all the pleasures of life like other people. Because he will otherwise become "evil"?


Mindset is mindset, and problems are problems... Trouble can come regardless of whether you are afraid of it or not. Trouble doesn't care about your level of personal growth, alas. Yeah, luckily it didn't kill him. Really, if I did get into that scene, it would have "killed" my Tav for me. Spitting on Astarion like that isn't even roleplay scrapping. It means ending the game by dismissing Astarion as a spawn, and not with my Tav, but with some other person's nasty bitch who was replaced with my character by "scripting arbitrariness".


That's nice Ametris also wrote that Astarion has a funny reaction if you say you're afraid of him. I'll have to watch that in "test form" if I can find a save close to that

Yes. Goal, defang?

I will be ferocious now.

The last thing I understand in this world is - Why does Astarion fear Tav, after choosing the goblin side?
I chose the "path of evil", with a man for the "path of evil" and now Astarion is afraid of evil? Nonsense.
That can't be, ince would need to be rewrite the whole character from 0, since he has lines about "massacre" even in act 3.
He approves too much in Act 1 to be afraid of Tav, for a little terror in the grove. Which he himself wants and calls it fun.

Fanon and Canon - going two different ways, people like to paint Astarion as delicate. He's really fragile, like with a love interest, yes. And even then, not always. Otherwise, Astarion can pierce your eye with a dagger - he's dangerous vampire.
I love that duality, he's a fancy and he's an absolute predator.
Larian, "Draco in Leather Pants" exists, you don't have to listen, they'll do just fine as they are.

There is a theory that Astarion is worried about the female drow camp, not Tav. There are reasons. However, no, I don't think so, Astarion knows how to stand up for himself and rip someone's throat out if need be. He is admired for strength and killing skill. Therefore, he approves of Lae.
Two brothers killed in the swamp.
Gale: These killings were deliberately brutal. There's something near that relishes in carnage.
Astarion: Although whoever killed them did a masterful job.

And the savagery and debauchery of the goblins - there's a line.
Astarion: Not that I approve of goblins, of course - filthy little beasts - but I do like a good den of debauchery.
He's almost Jareth partying around the campfire with goblins.

It takes too much rewriting to make it sound like Astarion is afraid of Tav, who does what he "approves" of meta, and dialog. Seriously, just bring back the release or explain it, and that he's afraid of Tav I won't believe, that he's afraid of the drow I will believe... barely.

Act 1 and Astarion in it – is a complete masterpiece, if anything should be rewritten it's Act 3.

Astarion is an "evil" character, I love exploring complex "evil", complex, logical motivation for "evil" - and Astarion has it. Not popular, yes, "the evil path", but if Astarion wasn't like he was in the first act... Who knows if he'd be popular.

There is a belief that the game will be different in 2 years thanks to patches and guessing definitive.
I just hope Astarion remains a man who is comfortable with evil and immorality, a man for the "path of evil" - therefore the only male companion for that and keep that duality fancy predator, seducing to the dark side.

No, why should I? (Unless you mean the very moment of the dock scene.) He is a big boy. By default he is even an Arcane Trickster, he can cast Darkness for himself. I don't know if you ever watched "Buffy the Vampire Slayer" but I suspect that Spawnstarion will develop a cavalier attitude towards the sun similar to Spike's, who treats the danger of sunlight as a nuisance to somehow deal with and otherwise just gets on with his day.


I meant that literally. Some food or insect allergies can be deadly for people who have them, it still doesn't stop most of them from living their lives. Direct sunlight is dangerous for Astarion, he has to avoid stepping into running water and has to be invited into private homes but that's it. He is not in any form disabled, he has to avoid certain things. That is sad and tragic because he loves being in the sun and makes other things - like travel - a bit more complicated but overall it is something you can work with if you want.


It doesn't work. Someone can objectively be save through the best alarm system in the world and still feel scared all day long because they only think about what could go wrong. I won't comment on the rest since my argument against the ritual never was about who is allowed which powers or artefacts.

It's just... incredible.

Astarion does NOT approve of you taking the side of the grove, Astarion is initially in favor of getting inside the cult (i.e. going for the "evil" version of the walkthrough). He approves of so much "fun" bloody, evil, and even violent action in the first chapter that it's just incredibly stupid and a concrete "breaking" of character.


Exactly. The duality and multifariousness of the image and makes the character of Astarion unique. The developers themselves presented BG3 as a game in which, among other things, there will be a full-fledged opportunity to "play for evil", and without a real "evil" romance this opportunity cannot be called full-fledged.


Astarion does not like cowards, he always approves of brave and decisive actions, such behavior is completely uncharacteristic of him.


Totally agree. The second act is also very good, all the flaws in the storyline that could have been fixed are solely in the third act.


It's the fact that Astarion is evil that makes it possible to create that inimitable "wow effect" of suddenly starting a romance with him for someone who started out playing a good character. When he first floods you with disapproval, you don't count on any romance, you just think about how to make a deal with him so that he at least doesn't go into the "red zone of disapproval", doesn't quarrel with you and doesn't leave your camp sooner or later. Like after the bite, you start to understand him, think about him, and then - a whirlwind of events and ... bang! Astarion himself comes to you at night and starts a romantic relationship. This "exploding bomb effect" is only possible with Astarion's character, not with any other.


Damn, I'm afraid of patches now.... How can you "work on the game" so much that the player starts to fear patches?

I can't get out of my head all these "alarm bells" and facts of Astarion's deteriorating image that regularly pop up here and there. I hope I'm just being paranoid as hell, but I'm afraid of how the Larians are planning to make Astarion's image "comical". The kind of "funny aggressive loser" that you can "piss off" and "laugh" at his reactions. And that disgusting "good ending scene" fits into that too. I hope this doesn't happen, because it would be very painful, and I won't be able to buy any more games by this studio after this, no matter what graphics and story they promise there. I hope it's just paranoia....

Regarding creating a separate thread on this topic - maybe you have any suggestions for a thread title? (I can suggest "Fix the problems - don't fix the perfection. Dear Larian, please no need to make Astarion "less evil"). And how to move posts from one thread to another? (I'm very new to the forum and don't fully understand all the technicalities).

Ok, maybe I just love him too much Perception, of course, depends a lot on the temperament of the perceiver.


Yeah. I actually enjoyed developing him more as an Assassin. He likes when "his hands are covered in blood" and enjoys fighting, judging by his lines. By the way, it works out really great if you take Astarion's medium armor skill (you can buy medium armor in Baldur, which allows you to add a dexterity bonus to AC). As a result, he really becomes my defender with AC 25 (more than my Tav-tank), does whatever he wants on the battlefield and can make his "cut" even without any "run" already.


Yes, of course, you can and should work with problems, and you can build a life with limitations as well. It's just that when there is an opportunity to specifically "heal" the problem, to get rid of it, I could never forgive myself if I missed such an opportunity for a loved one. I think that playing as a character with his own history and personality (as you played as Gale) allows you to "distance" yourself more from what is happening and look "from the outside" as a story of two, while "immersing yourself in the game" and creating an "alter ego" immerses you more "inside" the situation and perception becomes more subjective and emotional (depending on the emotionality of the player, of course), problems are let "through" and it is impossible to "accept" something, especially considering that Tav has too many opportunities and powers not to "do everything as it should be done".


To feel fear all day long is, of course, a very difficult state for a person. I did not mean "to be afraid all the time", but to logically calculate possible dangers, prevent them if possible, pay attention to them, and then let yourself relax and "live life". And the opposite situation can arise - when you know about your vulnerabilities, do nothing about it, and just because of this there is a feeling of constant threat, "dangerous world", when you do not know where and when the threat will come from. But you take all possible measures - and vice versa, now we can enjoy life and have fun (I had such a feeling after the Ascension of Astarion, complete relaxation, as if something inside "let go", the game world became sunny and comfortable again). And when I was walking around with the Spawn and imagining a possible future with him if nothing could be done about his condition, I had that "still feel scared all day long because they only think about what could go wrong" feeling, exactly as you described, and that it would haunt them quite regularly.

Honestly, I've been dreading patches for a very long time. I've noticed the changes in Lord Astarion's face too. In places it was even better. Larian adds a brightness of emotion, but in some places, they overdo it, to the example above.
On the other hand, if there is a definitive edition with a magistrate I won't mind. I love the theme of balancing evil, power, and large medieval cities too much.

The topic is "Suggestions and Feedback", in this section you have to be very concrete with specific examples and scenes. If Zayir has allowed the use screenshots so it's a good start.

I wish the complex image of the delicate predator would stay with Astarion.
After the ritual, he changes to either more "evil" or "good".
If you ask not to make Astarion "less evil", then only before the ritual.

I think it's important to emphasize that we're talking about "keep his fangs" Astarion before the ritual. With the Lord, on the contrary, do not lose the delicacy of "evil", complexity and deepness.
However, Larian added a great line when Astarion saw himself in the mirror, so that's a good signal. (They just need to add a romance scene of Tav and Astarion drinking each other's blood, no big deal)


The "babygirl" trend, yeah.
Let's hope this trend stays in fandom, not canon.
I'm sure even Kratos is called babygirl, my little meow meow (I checked, it's true, dear lord), so rewrite him now eh (?) I understand caring about a strong, powerful man, do the cute thing, but I feel the "babygirl thing" skews the strength, mocks it even. I prefer to enjoy characters in a different way.
Astarion has fun, and he's a trickster X) just doesn't make it any less complex and charm-dangerous. And complexity doesn't make him "not fun".
Astarion's interesting trait despite his neatness is that he likes pretty things - he likes to be a leader. It's absolutely fascinating.
The way his bravery and savagery combine with "silk sheets", sewing, fancying up at the mirror, and back a nice sharp dagger, beautiful armor.
And it's fun, but it's realistic. Men decorated their gold armor with rose patterns (not everyone was interested, but some were) They chose bright colors - their sword cut off the enemy's head. And the epee would pierce the heart. Aramis read poetry and could kill a dozen enemies.
They loved pink, could be funny, but they didn't buffoon in a bad way, they didn't look like a "funny aggressive loser". Still serious and complex characters.
Let's hope Larian understands that balance.

Honestly there's so much in act 3, the same "good ending", Tav should run after him, an option would be appropriate.
There's not enough dialog with the companions after the turning. In which we could defend him from their attacks.
I'm have fun at the thought that Tav will get emotional after the drama-Wyll, and Astarion will try to calm down Tav and pout at the companions (oh geez connect the mind of a tadpole and find out his thoughts on the relationship, like in act 2)

Act 1 and Astarion there is perfect, while in Act 3, there is really something to work on. I heard a joke that "EA 3 act here now, waiting for the release".
For sure, the only change in Act 1 that I want is the return of the scenes from EA.
"Little Death" is still at the party, in the release version, the dialog is constructed as a reference to this scene, which it isn't.
Just take a look at this:
and this nice:

You seem to be very protective at least. I hate the "I will protect you" idea, no matter who says it.


My favourite version to date is having him as a Thief/Sword Bard, so he can can stab, mock and shoot at his leisure. Though I keep him in Light Armour because he rarely gets hit anyway and it looks cuter. He also has boots that prevent him from slipping on ice, so Gale can ice knife anyone who bothers Astarion too much and make the offenders slip and lie there like a pile of presents waiting for Astarion's daggers to slice them open.


The "alter ego" never works for me in video games or in P&P. The story always remains in "third person". With a normal Tav, I'd just have a deeply boring main character. So I like having a main character who has a background, to immerse myself more because I care for my main character just as strongly as I care for the rest of the gang.


I think that has to do with attitude a lot, like you mentioned. For me it's more a question of whether being an Evocation Wizard still prevents Spawnstarion from taking damage from the sunbeam spell or if Gale better drops his favourite nuke from the list of prepared spells. But that could be tested. Right, Astarion, you are up for a little science experiment, aren't you? ^^ Everything else: They'll deal with. They are both smart, resourceful people, who like a bit of a challenge. They'll be fine.

Wow, why did they cut this great scene out? This was amazing. What a loss! First video, first answer about the little death: his sarcasm is mind-blowing. I love it.


Or maybe a title which includes Astarion changes in general? Like „be more careful in changing Astarion‘s cutscenes“ ?
There is a new thread where someone is complaining, that they changed the music in his ritual scene (good ending) and it’s also a drastical step to do this, because it changes the atmosphere. I don’t know if the new thread should be just for the evil side of Astarion or Astarion in general.

(No offence meant!) I know a lot of people call him Spawnstarion, I myself find it a bit odd to do so and just for fun I am asking myself, how we would call Astarion in the evil path, would'nt it be "As(c)tarion"? Isn't it nice - No change is needed in his name for his evil path

That's cute. Like he has his own little copyright brand in there. ^^