Larian Studios Forums Baldur's Gate III Baldur's Gate III - Story & Character Discussion Justice for Gale

Definitely none of them deserved what they got, Gale included.

But I've been increasingly disappointed with Larian's writing so what I meant is that I think Larian saw it pretty simply: Astarion wanted to survive, Wyll wanted to save people, Shart and Lae are obvious too, and I admit I forgot Karlach existed, but she also needed to survive aka have a job. Meanwhile Gale had everything, he didn't need to do anything, but his hubris dictated he could do more.

They didn't consider that it stops being that simple for Gale once you learn that he was in a relationship with the greatest possible authority figure in his life.

My analysis of the sources of Gale's story but first:

@anska


I'm sorry you feel that way. I tried to make it clear that while I found illegible's analysis offensive and I tried to raise the very dangers of trivializing an issue like CSA in a playful manner I seems I wasn't successful.

It saddens me that someone so well spoken is doing the damage they are.

Addressing @sailorsnoopy


I think that's right and that's the correct interpretation of the Avatar crisis. But I don't that's Gale's story. Gale's story is: mortals overreach. Let me explain

As I read Gale's story there are four Ur sources for it. The tale of Icarus, Gwain and the Green Knight, Adam & Eve and the Folly of Karsus. (and all of those inform Karsus' story as does Gulliver's travels)

While I'm sure that forum members already know these stories - just as I assume that forum members are capable of reading subtext * - I want to give my account so the reader knows how I am interpreting them.

Icarus:


(and it's worth Mentioning that Hubris a word that crops up in Gale's story time and time again. In the original meaning of word Hubris was a prideful arrogance towards divinity)

Sir Gawain and the Green Knight


(tanget - the recent film adaptation is very different telling but it is amazingly well done, you should see it)

Karsus' Folly


Gale's story is a combination of all these stories. He's also Eve who hungers for knowledge that her god doesn't want her to have - but Eve doesn't know that god's restrictions are kindly meant. If she eats that apple her life is going to take a turn for the worse . . . This comes up several times when Gale talks about how unjust it is that Mystra left certain knowledge just out of sight. Why did his god put the apple there but not allow him to eat it?

When Gale told me how unfair it was that Mytra kept certain knowledge from him I found his tone petulant. As a cleric of mystra I had faith that Mystra had her reasons, as a multiclass wizard I knew the story of Karsus but was shocked to learn that Gale knew the story but failed to grasp the moral of the story. I mean come on Gale how can you know the story but miss the point?

Gale and the Green Knight

Mystra is a god in a game setting and she does put her chosen through a series of trials to confirm their worth just as the Green Knight tested Gawain. Elminster's trials did involve suffering but each time he proved his worth and - with one exception where Bane intervened - emerged as a better person for it.

Is it fair for a lover to put their beloved through trials to play games with them? In our world, no. Is it a okay for the god of game setting to give their followers quests? I think so - I think you need to make allowances for the silliness of the setting.


And yes, becoming chosen does involve a loss freedom. Elminster gets tasks he likes and those he doesn't.


This is a matter of taste. I like that the Forgotten Realms - unlike Greyhawk - is a realm that sticks closely to the fable / fairy tale / passion play tradition of communicating moral lessons. Even if I, as an atheist, preferred the moral lesson of PoE1 to the moral of the fall of nethril I enjoy stories with a moral to them. Settings with "grey morality" feel as blah as a day with grey skies.



Gale, Icarus and Karsus

Gale's story of course most directly relates to Karsus and Icarus. After we got the instructions for the crown Gale's rendition of Karsus' story was "yes but it wasn't his ambition that was wrong, indeed it's not fair that the gods don't share the nuclear codes with us and besides if change the formula of the wax can resist the heat of the sun". Gale, tell me you missed the point of the story without telling my you missed the point of the story . . . I told him to shut it.

This, incidentally, was the only time in the entire game I got a "Gale disaproves" reaction but I still had perfect approval and he listened to my advice when talking to Mystra so perhaps he needed to hear some difficult truths.


I get that others have seen dialogues that I haven't but since I always choose the "you're acting like Karsus" / "mystra is probably right" options and

The Elminster meeting - getting meta

You are right that Elminster is not enjoying the task that Mystra gave him. As a cleric of mystra I had the additional options say something like "this doesn't sound like Mystra" and then "Mystra should trust in me I am also her servant". But this test of my faith held out. Mystra hadn't communicated with Gale for a year because he the orb had stolen his chosen abilities. Mystra did send aid - she developed a charm that would allow the virus to spread from Gale's PC to the internet and spared him the damage.

What isn't clear is why she waited a year. Did she, like the Green Knight, wait to see if Gale would demonstrate the virtues of a chosen? If so she would have been disappointed because Gale's reactions to his mistake violate the "code" of chosen. The chosen are supposed to make new magic items and to put them into dungeons for adventurers to find not destroy them.

Or, as I suspect, did Mystra not understand why he dropped off the radar? Now we don't the rules of Karsite weave. It's something that Larian made up for the game. And like it! But I suspect that they originally meant to use the shadow weave and only belated realized that Karsus was not using Shadow Magic but Mystryl's weave. This is consistent with Auntie Ethel's EA diagnosis that the parasite was altered by the shadow weave.

If Gale were infected with a shadow weave orb Mystra wouldn't be able to hear from him. The Shadow weave is the anti mater to the weave's matter and even the god of divination magic cannot see things obscured by Shar's penumbra. I think the Karsite weave is playing a similar role. He just dropped off the radar for a while.

Is this head cannon? Yes. Does it explain why EA told us that the tadpoles were infused with shadow magic? Also yes.

So I'm interpreting Mystra in light of the way she has been presented in the Forgotten Realms lore up until now. She's a quest giver. And she gave Gale a quest not unlike the one the Green Knight gave Gawain. Difficult choice - Gawain needed overcome his fear and demonstrate his honesty. Can Gale overcome his hubris and demonstrate his fidelity?

Now if I would make a Justice for Mystra thread I would ask why Elminster didn't show up at the party to tell us that Gale-bomb Gale is now enjoying his afterlife in the best library in existence. But I suspect the authors didn't care about representing Mystra accurately as they did as seeing Justice for Gale. With just his Tressym and the projection at the party his sacrifice seems weightier than a Forgotten Realms death should feel. I would have preferred if Gale bomb got the full Green Knight treatment - "you did as I asked. Do you want to return to life as a chosen or spend eternity with me and learn all those secrets you wanted to learn"? It seems strange that Gale only gets those options with the reforging of the crown.


* And yes, that was mocking. I'm offended by illegible and don't feel like I should spare the feelings of someone who treated mine with so little respect and whose 'advocacy' is doing so much damage. They might consider themselves the white knight but they are acting like a blackguard.

Hey all just letting you know it's okay to agree to disagree.

If anyone does not want to interact with a user, there is an "ignore user" button you can access by looking at a user's profile page (It should be there. I do not have access to it as a mod).

If it is difficult to get along with a particular user, it is probably best not to interact with each other at all for the sake of one's own peace of mind.

That might be the root of the problem. Firstly, if two people - one of whom has no stakes in the matter - tell you, that your tone misfired and you are concerned about your tone, it might be prudent to take a step back and reconsider where and why things went wrong. Secondly, it reads to me as if you consider illegible's analysis as being out of the ordinary. It isn't. It's by far the most widely discussed theory about Gale and Mystra's relationship that I have come across. And while I disagree, it is still interesting to see why so many people come to that conclusion.

Moving on:


Because he isn't. Withers catches Act 3 Bomb-Gale's soul before Mystra can whisk him away to Elysium and brings him elsewhere because Gale apparently still has stuff to do.

Whatever things were in EA, in the current state of the game the Karsite Weave connected to the Crown, the tadpoles and Gale's orb is different from Sharan Shadowmagic. The Annals of Karsus describe the orb as a battery that gathers energy so the wearer of the Crown can use magic while being disconnected from the Weave. It is basically a parasite, which is probably also why Mystra calls it a "corrupted, half-born magic". She stops contact with Gale because the orb is dangerous for her, she however never seems to lose track of him as she states that she witnessed his whole journey.


Her reason for interfering when she does is because it is her chance to get rid of the Absolute, the Crown and the Orb in one swoop when Gale gets involved in the matter. You can learn during the Audience with Origin-Gale that it is not her place to destroy another god's creation, so she cannot destroy the Crown (or the Orb) herself. Gale, however, as the heir to Karsus's power, has no such limitations. This ups the stakes. In Gale's Origin, you are no longer only following your goddess's command on a path to redemption, while forgiveness and a place in Elysium are still the reward offered to Origin-Gale, the dilemma becomes one independent of obedience: How valuable is a single mortal life? Is it worth throwing your life away to rid the world of the danger of human ambition once and for all, or do you value your life and human experience more?

I do really enjoy the interactions with Mystra in Gale's Origin. It clearly shows the power imbalance between the two. Mystra feels more like a stern but kind teacher than a former lover, putting her in line with all the other maternal authority figures in Gale's life (Tara and Morena, his actual mom), but she also acts as a voice of conscience (as which the narration uses her for throughout the play-through) that questions your actions but which you can also challenge yourself. Basically, you can use the audience as a re-examination of Gale's faith, if you wish.

Gale's Origin, to me, places a lot of emphasis on reason and thinking events through. Blind obedience to the divine (detonating the Orb in Act 2) leads to utter chaos and destruction because Mystra is more concerned with the stability of the Weave than with the many, many lives she would ruin with her command. Detonating the Orb in Act 3 becomes a call-back to Withers's initial question about the worth of a single human life. And Mystra too becomes a more complex figure. It might be my interpretation, but I got the impression that while she had to ask self-sacrifice of Gale because it would be the best solution for the Weave, she as an entity much prefers it when he returns the Crown and distances himself from her. She seems to be self-aware enough to notice that being close to a god or being their Chosen is not good for a person. Her parting words when returning the Crown (and not requesting to become her Chosen again) are:

"Go, Gale of Waterdeep. Your life is your own at last. It's time you went and lived it."

Boy I hope not. Withers might be an upgrade for Durge but it's a downgrade for Mystra's faithful. lf Gale converts from the worship of Mystra to Withers he's going to give up eternity in a library for a job writing down the names of people who have died. There's a reason why the god of data entry doesn't have many followers.

If Withers took him why didn't he bring him to the party? Come on bone man if you can find Tara you can find Gale.

On the meeting with Mystra

Interesting difference in dialogues I got. They were almost the same but - from memory - Mystra told Gale that the first thing the orb consumed were his talents. Now it's not clear what his talents were I took her to mean his chosen abilities. I took the following you progress meant following after orb stabilization but I concede that your interpretation of that is the better one.

Mystra probably knew that Gale screwed up and waited to see if he could complete the quest that fate handed to him.

With Gale as a companion I was able to give him advice on what approach to take with Mystra and my cleric chose something like 'ask for her forgiveness' I suspect that the there is some sort of counter for the origin as well that determines how that conversation goes.

There are similar counters in the game - while I never created an undead I did use Glut's spore servant power once and afterwords my Tav had lots of edgelord things to say when selected . . . Took a while for her to reset to "these boots have seen everything"


That does seem like a good ending for Gale. It seems like a story of maturity.

On the worth of a single mortal life

Larian's approach to this is strange. On one hand soullessness is the looming danger of illithid transformation and on other hand mortal life is treated as more precious than eternal life. Soul coins - which in the lore experience terrible agony when burned in an infernal machine - are simply potions that make Karlach really hot. Karlach's transformation into a soulless monster than hungers for human brains is treated as a transformation into an existential philosopher. Larian's attitude on souls is . . . weird. It seems more like DOS2 - where souls are simply sources of "source" - than Faerun.

On the false ending

One of the many, many problems with the endgame is that it doesn't explain why the gale-bomb fails to kill all the tadpoles at moonrise but does in the endgame. I think they anticipated that a Cleric of Mystra would object to this depiction of Mystra - which is why they gave my cleric the "this doesn't sound like her" / "she should trust in my abilities" lines

I don't know if I would be happy with a more rational, we should free ourselves from the gods playthrough myself because many of Gale's lines there sound like he's blaming his ex for a decision he made. Which, I think, is one of the motivations behind people finding reasons to see Mystra as some sort of monster than grooms children.

Having seen the origin Gale endings on youtube Mystra seems like Mystra again - saving his soul if he's illithid, restoring his status as chosen if he requests, letting him know that romantic affair is possible and, as you say, letting him live his life as an ordinary human. It like all of those but I think it's odd that he gets an inferior ending when using the bomb in the upper city. To me it seems like video game logic - you are rewarded for doing more stuff - and not good story telling.

Of the unsatisfying endings to the game I do like Gale sacrifice best.

Concerning Withers: I took it that Bomb-Gale is simply somewhere in Ghost-Country, probably hidden so Mystra can't get to him. From my understanding, Withers just wanted to ensure, that Gale wasn't "plucked from the tapestry of fate" so he can technically be brought back somehow when the time is right, same as exploded Karlach.

On the tadpoles: The only tadpoles that are questionable are the player-group tadpoles. The unprotected tadpolees transform either way. In Act 3 they transform when the brain rises from its pond, only when it is destroyed, all the Mindflayers connected to it get a seizure and can be taken down easily. In Act 2 that moment of weakness never happens. Of course there still is a large army outside of Baldur's Gate in Act 3, so probably still quite a few Mindflayers to clean up in the aftermath ... it makes more sense in the unexplosive ending, in which the brain is ordered to destroy its squids.

In Origin the audience is an actual conversation in which you can chose your dialogue, not a cut scene. Astarion told Gale to not piss Mystra off and so I picked the answers that kept an overall good atmosphere but were also honest and questioning when necessary. I like how it turned out. If you so desire you can also tell her you'll detonate the orb, in which case she promises Elysium and says what a great service to magic it would be. I think he mentions that the orb ate his magical abilities when he tells you about his condition and what happened to him. That's why he is lvl 1 wizard and not the archmage lvl he used to be - because everyone else's abilities are dampened by the tadpole, nobody notices this as strange. But I would have to hunt for that portion of dialogue.

I didn't think he puts much blame on Mystra during Act 1 and much of Act 2, he after all calls himself the "villain of the story" and is very ready to follow her command in Act 2 - which none of the companions quite understand. Most arguments I have read on the matter put blame on Mystra because he does *not* put much blame on her. The switch to vengeance comes after he learns of the crown.

For me becoming Mystra's Chosen or lover again range somewhere among the very bad endings for him, because they deny him the freedom of self definition. I pondered the Chosen option for a while - the perks are neat - but in the end it would have felt like a step backwards on the whole - and as much as a betrayal of the plans he had previously made with Astarion as claiming the Crown would have. They decided on equality in partnership and finding a better way together afterall - and his vampire spawn boyfriend/husband deserves nothing less than full attention. ^^

Another thing I wanted to add, but which is maybe a bit too much to add in an edit: The whole "the guy who always asks for a library gets to be in the best library" misses the point - as do all of the other stories referred to above.

Sure he'd be content in Elysium. Anybody would be, you are by default content in Elysium. From my - arguably limited - understanding of the place that kind of is the point of it. But that Gale is insanely curious and wants to learn magic isn't his problem, that he is lonely and magic also is his crutch is. The man sees no worth in himself besides his magical skill. Everything he had or was - to his understanding, at least - hinged on him being an excellent wizard, including his romantic relationship. So when he pleads, pouts and tries to get Mystra a present (in other words: uses his persuasion proficiency) in order for her to let him in on her secrets, so he can "prove himself worthy" and "serve her better", he is looking for equality in their relationship. That is of course not going to work, due of the very nature of his lady love. Mystra is first and foremost interested in the Weave and her worshippers are simply her currency. It cannot be a good relationship because there cannot be equality in it. As Mystra's lover you have to be content with what ever she deins to grant you. Scraps from the table, fruit that have fallen from the tree. I can absolutely see where the grooming theories come from.

There is the trite saying that power corrupts, but there is the other assumption that power reveals. Gale in every version of himself is lifting others up when he has the chance to and does so gladly. Sure, part of that is to endear himself to you because he needs to make sure he is worth keeping around, but it is also his nature. Even in his god-form - which is why Raphael is so delighted that Gale's attitude will eventually bring the whole system down.

To me, the truly tragic moment is, that Elminster only learns his lesson when Gale becomes a god, but not when he Gale gets a human ending. So Arabella will probably now get much the same treatment which Gale once got, since our little idol-thief is revealed to be Elminster's new ward in the epilogue letters.

Elysium is divided into subrealms. Mystra's subrealm takes the form of an expansive magical library. Presumably there are also alchemical labs but that's not never mentioned. I assume that Gale would have the opportunity to learn.

One of Elminister's tests was an open invitation of a sinecure position at a library and Mystra gave him the option to live out a mortal life reading and writing. But he chose love of her instead and had faith that when his duties as a chosen were done he would gain access to a better one.


This is a pretty important sentence I think - it's something of a synodoche of one reading of Gale. I think his cardinal trait is hubris, not loneliness.


There a was psychologist who had a theory of personality in which people had cardinal traits (tip of pyramid), primary, secondary and tertiary. The cardinal trait is the one that rules our actions informs the expression of all the others. With Astarian the cardinal trait would be fearful. Charming, seductive, etc are primary or secondary traits. He's going to hang around you for protection even if you are bad company. I'd put Gale's loneliness pretty low down on the pyramid. It's there but it doesn't seem to guide many of his actions.

Gale's two wolves

I know the original story has been all but lost to the memes but I'm using the original one. The wolf you feed is the stronger of the two. Gales two wolves are: Gale the god of ambition and the chosen of mystra.

This is another EA comparison so if you didn't play EA Wyll it makes less sense but I think there are parallels between Wyll 1.0 and the Gale 2.0 stories: both are "two wolves" stories. In EA Wyll had the potential for heroism that we see in final release but that was blocked by his love of glory. The hero of the sword coast was, in reality, a gloryhound consumed by a desire for revenge, a person who would use evil means to get his vengeance and someone who cared more the life of his infernal patron than lives of the innocents at the grove. But he also wanted to the right thing and wouldn't directly threaten the lives of the children at the grove. The charlatan and the folk hero were his two wolves and Tav needed to decide which of two she would encourage Wyll to feed.

When Gale sees the crown the wolf of ambition starts slavering. Imagine what I could do with all that power. I wouldn't need Mystra, I wouldn't need anyone. I'd by a Mythal unto myself, not someone who begs for whatever scraps the gods decide to dole out to us.

(the first taken from his mirror reveal, the second taken from a dialogue that might be unique to clerics)

Now I agree with you that wolf can be tamed by a romantic partner


Getting back to the original post of the thread. The OP was upset that Gale was written to be annoying but I think we needed to be a bit annoyed by his arrogance to see the struggle at this moment. "No Gale, I like you despite those traits". Is Hubris going to remain top dog or can another take its place?

(But his 'annoyingness' really needed to be toned down. ln EA I found him not just arrogant but creepy and manipulative. That "I just made you dinner" scene. bleh, *shudder* bleh )

And that's why I don't think I "missed the point" with the previous stories. The tale of Karsus is, in part, a retelling of the story of Icarus and I don't think you can ignore that aspect of the story.



I think there is some truth to that. Mystra is first and foremost interested in the weave and will put its well being before anything else. But that's also in the interest of (demi) humanity - last time the weave was blown up 10s of thousands died and humanity entered a dark age. Raphael's right: Nethril was the apex of human civilization. I mean they had indoor plumbing, refrigeration, central heating, flying chariots . . .

She's also more concerned with souls than lives. I don't like the line about people dying all the time. It makes her attitude more callous than it should be be but, yes, to the gods the eternal lives of people are more important than their mortal ones. Whatever the worth of a single mortal life, immortal life is infinitely more valuable. Mystra is not Mammon.

(no Karlach you can't eat those souls)


That's true. You also need to be prepared for a series of heroic tests of fidelity. But, in her defense, she makes her lovers as powerful as any mortal can be and her lovers are free to start as many romantic relationships as they like. So she makes some attempts to bridge a the power gap that cannot be crossed.

I find it strange that they made Gale monogamous - strikes me as a last minute decision. Gale, did you not know that your former lover isn't non monogamous? That you weren't in an "old fashioned" relationship? If you failed to find someone other than Tara that's on you.

Yes, you can tell the story as one that exposes the pathologies of a power gap relationship here's an alternative view: Mystra's relationships can inform both monogamous and poly relationships. If you are in a relationship with, say, a musician you might need to accept that music is their first love. Your partner found, at the age of 8, that they are a prodigy and fell in love with music. In their 20s they found they were declared a virtuoso. In such a relationship you might feel slighted that your lover married music before he married you but if you are secure in the relationship you should feel confident that there is enough room in your lover's heart for two.

Now in Faerun, unlike ours, Music is instantiated. Indeed the instantiation of music shows up at our party to play for us. If Milil demanded monogamy from his beloved he would be abusing his power in a way Mystra does not.

Do you have any youtube links to the Elminster / Gale god reaction? Not familiar with it. If I were to write the story I would write he was upset that Gale fed the wrong wolf.

On Arabella - sounds like a good launching point for BG4. Because she also has two wolves, she can manipulate both the shadow weave and Mystra's weave and I think bone man is setting her on quest so as to allow her to choose between Mystra or Shar. Or to tame both wolves and seek balance (as Silvanus and Jergal would prefer)

I don't think hybris - especially if you really take it as becoming godlike - is much of a problem for him at the start of the story. When we meet him, that orb left a pretty deep impression. He is curious about the tadpoles but advocates caution, he is curious about the shadow weave but if you leave him to deal with Balthasar's Moonlantern circle, he will cleanse it. When he first sees the Crown, he isn't instantly thinking about challenging Mystra, he sees it as a fascinating artefact and a possibility to save his life. In his mental-health-tracker (the "How are you feeling?" line in the romance menu) after seeing the crown but before studying the Annals he says: "More excited than I've been in months. I can't tell you how curious I am to learn more about the crown controlling that elder brain. Believe me when I say how important this could be for me. For both of us. Potentially lifesaving. so long as we can learn how it can be taken, and used." He mostly sounds excited too. The whole bettering the gods thing only starts after he reads the book and understands the bigger picture.


A large chunk of what he uses his magic/knowledge for socially is as a means to connect with the player and the other characters. Magic brought his best friend to him (when he was denied a pet friend) and his Magma-Mephit penpal, his magic lesson is a means to connect with the player through the craft he loves and a lot of his banter is trying to use his knowledge or curiosity to connect with others. I think the first nice conversation anyone can have with Lae'zel is him praising her fighting styles and showing interest in her culture, which allows her to show off and be generous in return. I'd say making friends is pretty high on the importance scale for him. He is also the only one who in the end remarks how much he likes the gang - and if he offers to explode in Act 3, he does so in order nobody has to become a Mindflayer. Unless you can bend him terribly as a cleric, he doesn't offer sacrifice for Mystra, but for his mortal friends/ his partner.


That is Elmister's letter to God-Gale. A good nature ruined by the system - and, while you probably disagree, I put becoming Mystra's Chosen on the side of the system. Being a Chosen is not a good thing in this game, whatever it might be outside of it. The whole wizarding academia seems to be exploitative and focused on peak performance only. In his professor ending it seems to be a totally strange concept for his students, that he encourages them to have fun with their magic. Rolan, who has a very loving family, also needed a heavy hint in order to distance himself from this system.

And so if I had to pick one thing at Gale's core, it's this boy weeping for the roses. He is curious, he is very open minded, he rarely judges but mostly tries to relate to those around him, and has a love for beauty and art - and there is a sense of melancholia in him most dominantly during the first two acts of the game.

I don't know if you read my previous post on the subject - it got a bit buried in other debate - but I tend to read the whole story more as one about work-life balance and about dealing with one's ambitions and passions in a healthy manner. Just being focused on one's craft isn't healthy. I wouldn't call him "old fashioned"- I think he loves very deeply. For him sex and its astral version of it is about "the exploration and acceptance of the self and the other" - that doesn't work casually. He also gets passionate about and lost in the things he engages with. In the romanced version of the epilogue (especially in the Waterdeep ones) it is implied that you had to drag him along to the party a bit. And that is just the way he seems to feel which makes Mystra again a bad fit - and he seems to be aware of that. He doesn't seem to mind that Elminster brings up his relationship with her ... at least twice. So you might see his strong desire for a faithful partner and a stable relationship as a new development maybe? Because to me it reads that Gale had other romantic/sexual entanglements while with Mystra. First mortal lover since the relationship with Mystra came to its end, is the wording after all. He did have a long time to think about what he might want from a partner while stuck in his tower. I also thought it curious that when he mentions his past mortal lovers, he has less enthusiasm for them than for his mom's sauce recipe.

When I say that all the stories miss the point, it's because in them pride, aspiration is the goal of the endeavour. For Gale it is a means to an end, even the ambition of godhood has its purpose in a quite nice altruistic vision. I think if you want to pick a classical example Prometheus might be a direction into which God-Gale aspires (preferably without getting eaten, I presume.)

That's lovely. Thanks for that and the note. I still prefer my read but I'm sincerely happy I read this. And yes he decides to save the day so no one needs to become a mind flayer. Orpheus, you should have listened . . .


No I don't agree and more importantly Tara doesn't agree. She blames Tav for leading him down this path and not Mystra. She thought Mr. Dakarios was a perfectly lovely Chosen (granted I've only seen the youtube and don't know if she says something else in other places)

She considers Gale-bomb to be one responsible the death of the absolute. My Tav was pretty happy with Gale's chosen / professor ending.

On 'academia' I did read those but found myself disagreeing because before and Tasha's and BG3 there weren't universities in Faerun. BG2 took place in the 13th century and, while we are formally in the 14th century, the world has just emerged from a second dark age so education takes place in either an apprenticeship or is taught at temples of Mystra or Azuth. As a multi class wizard I tried to warn Rolan about Larrokan but he wasn't listening. Perhaps Rolan can use his new digs to create Faerun's second university.

The things you would need to for an academic culture to thrive don't really exist in Faerun. There are no lending libraries (outside of temples of Bhaal ) to get into candlekeep you need to donate a very valuable book and that only gets you a pass of 3-7 days depending on the value of the tome. I dunno why Ogmha likes it that way but I like the result: it keeps wizardry as arcane knowledge.

In the real world academy, knowledge isn't restricted but access to certain materials is controlled. The scientists who know how to make nukes and super viruses are only given access to the materials needed to create such things under certain conditions. In Faerun such restrictions aren't in place. Knowledge is power and anyone who learns how to memorize a fireball scroll can start blowing things up. If Faerun were to opt for the free flow of information Mystra would probably need to limit the weave still further - and Archmage Gale wasn't satisfied with the ability call down meteors or alter reality via wish . . .

So I don't hold Mystra responsible for Lorrokan. For one that would be Azuth's domain and two I just prefer apprentice mage stories to university student stories; magic university stories feel too mundane. The second, I realize, put me in a small minority I disliked the Harry Potter series before I learned to disliked the author. I guess that makes me an apologist for the system but, truth be told, I prefer Faerun's system to our own or the wizarding world of Rowling.

"old-fashioned" is the word he uses when you ask him for a ENM relationship with Halsin. I hadn't noticed the bits with Elminster, makes the decision include this dialogue all the more questionable:

Like much of Halsin act 3 it should be revised.

One does presume that Gale god wants to avoid being eaten But one also suspects that Gale god is about to learn the hard lesson that the dead three and Cyric learned: godhood isn't freedom, it means you belong to AO. And Gale hints as much at the party. If Prometheus is unbound I suspect he will suffer the same fate as the dead three. Unfortunately he can't be Shelley's Prometheus either because that hero was absent all "ambition, envy, revenge, and a desire for personal aggrandizement" Indeed we should be concerned that Gale's theology is spreading in the lands of Thay - land ruled by undead wizards - and Amn (the colonial superpower of Faerun)

You are right to say that being a chosen in this game is not a good fate. But I disagree - strongly - that we should only judge this game by its content and not "outside" content. (I'm not saying that's your position but other have said as much) It's a DnD game, a Faerun game and a sequel to the BG2 series. Elminister the chosen of mystra is a benevolent figure in the DnD novels and both BG1 and BG2.

"Stay thy course and indulge an old man" in BG1 is conversation starter that direct Charname to trustworthy companions. In BG2 he keeps the Jaheria romance going and he restores Jaheria's fallen Harper status. If anything we should be asking how well the game represents the lore. Why, for example, doesn't the game include a chosen who is relatively happy with her fate? I would have liked to have met Alustriel. (especially if she let us ride a unicorn)

This isn't PoE or DoS2 where the gods are soul vampires . . .

I did want to add that I do think seeing the human ending a proper work-life balance is a nice interpretation. No, no one should devote their entire life to work.

I do think being chosen is more of a calling. A "job" that doesn't feel like a job. If Gale were not chosen he would still wake up, feel compelled to interact with the weave, still want to put wrongs to right. And that is much of what a chosen does. Some spend their time repairing holes in the weave, some do battle with spellcasters that threaten the weave . . .

I did want to add that I do think seeing the human ending a proper work-life balance is a nice interpretation. No, no one should devote their entire life to work.

I do think being chosen is more of a calling. A "job" that doesn't feel like a job. If Gale were not chosen he would still wake up, feel compelled to interact with the weave, still want to put wrongs to right. And that is much of what a chosen does. Some spend their time repairing holes in the weave, some do battle with spellcasters that threaten the weave . . .

... Let me see if I am allowed to reply something today.

What I meant by academia, was not university as we know it but more a mindset, that seems to be omnipresent in all the wizards we meet, learn about and in the Mystra cleric who's tower we pilfer too. I picked the term because Gale is referred to as an academic in the epilogue - but that might be because he is teaching at an actual academy. In any case they are all very success oriented, competitive and seem to cast everything that distracts from their work aside. The theme of loneliness is strongly present in Lenore's tower, as is her need for success - her emotional support robot gives her a pep-talk by reminding her how brilliant she is - Yrre, her lover, does not seem to fare much better. Rolan goes so far as to briefly cast his beloved siblings aside for a chance to study with Lorroakan and seems not to understand how wrong Lorroakan's teaching methods are until he notices his master's general cruelty. Professor Gale's students also seem to have a mindset that is focused on success alone and he has to encourage them to have fun. So whatever you call the social circle of wizards, there is a very unhealthy tendency in it that has a negative effect on their overall behaviour.

Gale himself seems to be very fulfilled by his job, I'd go as far as call this a calling for him - I just hope that somebody occasionally gives him a hug or that shiny red apple.

I'd say, Tara is very proper. Even when she briefly wants to kill Mystra with a bow and tries to persuade Gale away from Act2 explosion (as does Elminster btw) she never questions the general laws of the world. She also has very high and very traditional expectations of Gale, she (and his mom) would like him to settle down with someone, but still be successful and studious. In all romance endings seems dissatisfied because Tav has taken her wizard away from her - unless she can make Tav complicit in bossing Gale around. So yes I think she was and is overall very proud of Gale as a Chosen - what higher honor can you get after all.

Tav seems to be the deciding factor for Gale to claim the Crown? I strangely never went for it despite mostly running around with Astarion and Gale. ^^; I did watch some yt videos though and I do like the slow change you can see in Gale: First he is only fascinated by the crown, then he wants to use it to better the world but not become a god, then at last - apparently when encouraged to defy Mystra - godhood becomes an option. But that final straw comes extremely late.

I don't think Elminster is unhappy with his fate and I never thought that he was not portrait in a benevolent way. In Gale's Origin there is even a narrative moment dedicated to how important he is to Gale. One options says that Elminster's disappointment is even worse than Mystra's. But as the game's core theme is power, including the power over people and what a lack of freedom can mean, being a god's chosen naturally takes a more sinister turn. Despite its dark themes, I feel it is overall not a very cynical game. When you wander the path of empathy for your fellow creatures and taking fate into your own hands, you generally get the sweeter results. I also like that freedom is portrayed as something difficult. As long as the gods decide for you, you do not have to think for yourself but - since you brought it up earlier - once you tasted a fruit from the tree of knowledge about good and evil, you have to make your own decisions. You are forced from your father's garden and have to carve out your own way, for better or worse.

I am also wondering when Companion Gale becomes Mystra's Chosen again in the end and when not. The unromanced ending seemed to imply it, in the romanced ones it felt less so.

(And I am sorry, that this text was so very chaotic. A lot of fragmented thoughts.)

I haven’t read all the comments on this post as can’t bare to read more hate, but just wanted to agree that people’s treatment of Gale is beyond horrible, making him the butt of every joke and thinking that sui**ide and mental/emotional abuse is funny, thinking treating him like shit or using him for his body or telling him to off himself is funny,.. I mean it’s so behind wrong I can’t even put it into words. I don’t understand why people hate him, he honestly doesn’t talk anymore than the other companions, and is such a nice person if people bothered to see him for who he is. He is a very relatable and loveable character, I adore him so much and am so disgusted to see how the community seems to treat him. If people said/did these things to a real person they would never get way with it, and while yes this a game, just because something isn’t real or theoretical, doesn’t mean it’s any less harmful or toxic. Not enough people defend Gale, and from some stuff I’ve read, not even the game defends him, rather makes fun of his feelings and problems, because apparently Gale’s, and men’s feelings in general, don’t matter according to the game. Astarion has problems and issues, and yet everyone is supportive of him, yet Gale is treated like garbage by comparison who has some similar issues himself. I very much believe in justice for Gale, the man has the most beautiful heart and soul, and I would go to the ends of the earth to protect him. I just wish people would see him for who he really is, but more so stop the disgusting toxic abusive hateful behaviour towards him, if you don’t like his character, then just leave him alone, it’s that simple. Because going out of your way to abuse him physically and mentally, or pushing him to sui**de, then laughing about it, is beyond wrong by any moral standard.

I am feeling, that for the most part, we are having an interesting discussion here, that isn't hateful ...

I’m grateful to hear, I’m just nervous reading comment sections to be honest, but did not mean to imply the whole thread was hateful, just didn’t want to possibly run into a hateful comment(s), but I am honestly most glad to see thoughtful and caring discussions on the topic. I’m not great with articulating my words sometimes, so I apologise for any misunderstanding.

The thing is, as a cleric of Mystra you get the options like any other cleric also. I speak from experience. There is not much special about a Cleric of Mystra with Gale. I played as cleric of Mystra and then cleric of Tymora. And with wizard levels on the letter even. It feels like Larian didn't do their homework about Mystra. They just threw the cleric and wizard options randomly in one pot and put a Cleric of Mystra tag on it: :P
I feel that could be done better. Shadowheart for example gets special dialogues if you encounter her as a cleric of Selune. So why didn't they guve really special dialogues if you encounter Gale as a cleric of Mystra.
The test of faith thing was easy for me, since i was romancing Gale in that play through, i chose to defy Mystra, not lead my lover into his certain death and everyone else with us. But i miss reactions from Mystra. She could punish the cleric for it as well. I mean, Larian is so proud of the consequences of the game. Why not also put consequnces for the player here.


Fun fact, he is still the only companion that didn't get a new kiss animation. Everyone else did by now.

Also some of the end dialogues sseem still linked wrong and buggy. Even walking the Forgiveness path caused him to become a god even if i didn't want that. I tried to get an ending as possible for everyone of my companions and that's what you get for Gale? They should seriously give him a rework on those parts and a throrough testing. He doesn't deserve to be treated that sloppy.

Lae'zel and Shart still have the little pecks too, don't they? It has been mentioned before, that they are working on the new kisses for everyone - I just hope, that they make it a nice one like in the epilogue. Of the new every-day kiss animations I really only like Astarion's.


Yeah, I was scared of that too. ^^ Though they addressed this issue in the latest hotfix, maybe things work now? Best write a ticket about it, if it still happens.

They do? Then i only saw the new animations in the epilogues again....

I did report it. In fact i reported so many bugs since patch 4 already, i was told , Larian should pay me for it.^^

But yeah, i don't understand, Gale is the most played origin character. But still they neglect him. I mean, he can't be that unpopular, just because we Gale lovers don't simp like the Astraion fangirls/fanboys.

As someone with zero gift for brevity I can't help but identify with the guy.

My favorite line in all the dialog branches is the one that says "Give him a chance"

That one always hits super hard!

For me Gale is a bit tricky, because he holds up a mirror image for me in a way that's much closer to home than some of the other characters. My first serious romantic relationship as an adult was with a woman twice my age, who was also one of my college professors. Like I don't feel I need to go into it overmuch, as I'm sure I'll be unpacking that stuff till the end of time, but anyway when he has his moments I sometimes might see that. I don't mind all that much if it was handled slightly off key, it's interesting to me that they even tried to go there at all. I'm also a melancholic sort and have struggled with depression my entire life, like since I was a little kid. Tend to identify with the uxorious archetypes among the male characters in these types of games, which I've never understood as a pejorative, but maybe that's just cause of how my mom raised me. So Antony over Caesar, like obviously, every time for me. I'd also rather hang out with Sappho than Plato for the deeper depths. Like there's just all these little things in Gale's baggage train that make me really love the guy, despite whatever flaws, but then I do question whether that's a little easy for me sometimes.

He never came off particularly showboat-y in my view with full sails unfurled, but he's certainly long winded lol. I think in EA you also had that initial suggestion about the villainous path that made me pretty skeptical, cause I just figured the original fab 5 were all going to be the bad guys. You know that we'd have say 5 more good and 5 more neutral-sh after that maybe, but instead they kinda morphed over the course of the EA to the full release, so in my mind there's also a Good Gale vs Bad Gale dynamic in play here. I don't love him all the time, but half the time for sure.

There's also the pathing, cause if you hang that left you'll first find Astarion going knives out, and that primed me to be extra suspicious. Like who's this dude with the spectacular hair who's all trying to glad hand his way right out the portal? And then it's extra disarming when he's basically pretty polite and enthusiastic, and not too terribly judgmental. Like who can draw your weapon immediately, and then he'll stay and still try to play if off cordially. I just kinda appreciated that.

Anyway, the literal first thing I did once he revealed his detonation dilemma was to start trying to play around with that mechanic in horrid but to me amusing ways, cause I find dark humor cathartic. I tried several times to get the Necrotic cloud to do interesting delayed stuff like a remote mine in Goldeneye, like I thought maybe we could take out the entire Goblin camp that way, but he's got a long reach. I leapt into multiple chasms just to see what would happen. Curiosity can't really kill the cat when you can reload everything and do it 9 times over.

The more I sat with Gale the more he grew on me, and the more I felt like he's really the foil for me here in this game, cause the thing he tests from the player is patience, so he has a bit of time. At first everyone at camp wants to talk and get down, and then Gale wants your enchanted items, so he's got all that working against him. Like it's not just that he might come off verbose, or maybe patronizing, probably cause he's a dude talking about his own problems, and people I'm sure have their fill of that on the reg, but you know what I mean. He's generally at odds with Astarion in terms of early approval, so sets up a bit of a split there. It's interesting to me though, considering the first impression, that all 4 of the characters who we can meet on the beach, they'll never really party-break once recruited. I mean except for the Shadowheart Lae'zel showdown, but otherwise they'll all get down regardless, like if it's Durge or Tav goes evil. The only thing that causes Gale to bounce is if his plea for help goes continually ignored. You know like if one really can't part with the Ring of Color Spray or those boots nobody can wear, I guess. Minthara maybe could count for this too, if we include that first cutscene as someone we meet on the beach, but by the time you get to the Grove, pretty much everyone after that will push the party towards righteousness if you follow their cues. The villains are all basically heroes here, cause unless the player intervenes to put their thumb on the scale the companions tend to find a heart.

He has the best smiles though! Like when meeting the animals! Oh and when you finally start getting to do wizard type stuff in the big city and hit the books. I'd probably play him for the Origin, but then every time I've tried that I feel like I'm kinda seizing the wheel from them overmuch. I prefer them all as companions, though I might be missing out on some stuff because of that.

Anyhow not sure what else to add, but justice sounds good! Unless it's somehow Bard Gale with the hat on, in which case "Injustice for Gale" would probably be a pretty good album too. But then I guess someone probably has their bass lute levels dropped in favor of the big drums. Bound to happen I guess sometimes lol. This thread's pretty good though! If there weren't some big thoughtful block posts up in the Gale thread I'd be pretty disappointed hehe

ps. knock on thought, not sure how fruitful it is, but I think because this is somehow a AAA game that I have this initial association like it needs academy award winning gravitas that can handle some of this stuff a bit more deftly. Then though, I think really the better analog might be something like B flicks coming out the Hays era, Bettie, or a Rocky Horror thing later, maybe Kids in the Hall, you know like where you had encoding and ciphers, and if it misses the mark or appears maybe exploitative or mocking in retrospect it can still be beloved just for even trying or getting it on air somehow. I think this is because the medium is undergoing a shift to catch up with the culture, so you get those growing pains, but then also where it's just cool to see up in any form at all. I think it's not foregrounded maybe because it's just harder to see operating in general, like irl, but I think Gale gives us a bit of window onto some curious stuff and lends weight and perspective to the game same as the others. Justice for all these characters hopefully would come in a sequel - BG4, but I guess in a definitive edition or expansion would work well too, I'll take what I can get. I just want to see the band back together and they keep recording I guess. More Gale couldn't hurt, least not for me!