Larian Studios Forums Baldur's Gate III Baldur's Gate III - Story & Character Discussion Justice for Gale

And he is so moved by it. =) I instantly loved that scene when I got it the first time around. I also have a new favourite ending for Gale.

I’m actually really disappointed by how limited the changes to the Drow Twins scene was. I’m very glad that the player can now say they aren’t interested once Gail says he’s uncomfortable, but he still looks so uncomfortable and sometimes disgusted in the conversation. Worse, the bit if Halsin asks to join hasn’t changed, and it is really, really creepy.

For one thing, Halsin will still ask to join if the player has previously rejected his advances. My understanding is he does that for Shadowheart and Astarion too.

While Gale technically agrees to Halsin participating, his dialogue is the opposite of enthusiastic. He says "Well I suppose it would do no good to back out now. Let us begin this little anthropological study, if we must." The first part makes it sound like he feels he can't back out. Calling it an “anthropological study” makes it sound like he’s trying to emotionally distance himself, and the "if we must" is makes it clear that it isn’t something he actually wants. If that was supposed to portray enthusiastic consent, then it failed massively. Every part of that sentence expresses discomfort.

The fact that Halsin happily participates after this line is very upsetting, considering (I think) he was intended to be written as caring about consent. He doesn’t seem concerned when Gale literally flees and leaves a magic projection behind. I’m a little confused as to if real Gale is watching through his projection, but if he is, Halsin tries to coerce him into doing more than watching (which was all Gale had said he might enjoy). If the player says it's fine if Gale just watches, Halsin says, “Hmm. Hovering yonder like a carrion bird. Perhaps he'll find the courage to peck at some flesh later.” Halsin is comparing him to a vulture and saying he lacks courage for not doing more than he said he would. A different dialogue choice leads to Halsin saying "Don't just stare, Gale. That mouth of yours can do better than just hang open, I'll wager." I guess that would be okay if it was just an emotionless projection, but then what would be the point of mocking it, and why would the narrator say that the orb glows with excitement? The ending shows Gale naked with the others, so he does came back into the room at some point.

The player isn’t given an opportunity to stop when Gale flees, and there is no aftercare.

Larian wouldn’t deliberately write Halsin as a sexual predator, and then end the game with him in a position of authority over vulnerable children (and frame that as wholesome). That makes it seem like the writers didn’t see anything wrong with Halsin’s behaviour. As it is, he comes across as someone who does not care about the enthusiastic part of enthusiastic consent.


If this was deliberately written as a sexual coercion scene, and it was handled as well as Asterion’s from Act 2, it being an option wouldn’t bother me. It’s the framing. Parts of the scene seem like it’s being played as a joke, and that’s sickening. Some players interpret it as a funny scene, and others interpret it as coercion. Those are pretty polar opposite tones, but I can see where both interpretations are coming from, and I consider that a failure of the writing. I’ve heard so much about how Asterion’s trauma was handled so seriously and respectfully, so the Drow twins stuff was extremely jarring.

There has to be some sexism at play here. Can you imagine how people would react if Shadowheart ended her agreement to include Halsin with "If we must?" I don’t know if it would be possible to keep Gail in character and have him enthusiastically consent, but this certainly isn’t enthusiastic.

I agree with everything you said. The Drow Twins and Halsin fivesome has caused so much controversy and discomfort that I wish it wasn’t even in the game. Currently, I pretend that it isn’t in the game.

I don't want to have the Halsin debate carry over to this thread, please. There are already multiple threads on the issue.

On the Gale scene * is it bad that the text makes it clear you are exploiting your relationship with Gale for your own purposes? Unlike Kingmaker and WotR BG3 doesn't have alignment tags but I would consider coercing someone into a sex as an [ evil ] act. This person is a just pawn, a plaything whose only purpose is your pleasure. Who cares about their feelings if they perform as expected?

As someone who only plays good characters I like having evil options in the game because I makes my resistance to the seductions of evil feel meaningful.


* (which I've not seen and will likely never see because I can't imagine creating a Tav that would accept sex as a reward for quest)

It's still bad, lack of dialogue options there and reactivity(as example shar and selune SH have exactly the same scene and dialogue about it). Well at least they are changing stuff for different paths(spawn/ascended Astarion reaction to Mizora cheat as example), so hopefully they will change it in the future for Shar/Selune SH too. Gale case is harder, because with new dialogue options it makes Halsin's behaviour in this scene very questionable(as if it wasn't before), so hopefully they will polish it in the future.

In case I wasn't clear, I don't have a problem with the game allowing the player to do evil stuff, so long as it is framed as evil. Coercing Astarion into sex in act 2 is framed as a horrifying violation, and he will break up with the player over it. There are no consequences to the brothel stuff with Gale. SOME people consider it funny, because the projection is typically really funny. Not being able to tell if sexual coercion is being treated as coercion or is treated as a joke is my main problem. Halsin happily participating after Gale's "if we must" line makes me think it wasn't intended to be coercive, because he is framed as good aligned.

Halsin is everywhere ... until Orin kidnaps him. ^^;

Is the scene still bad? Probably, I didn't go through with it. The patch notes say that player attitude was improved which I understood as that they modified the "screen of doom" and that was handled well. If you end up on it either because you are unsuspecting yourself or play an unsuspecting character you no longer have to be mean to Gale. There is a clear way out, the teasing sounds like teasing not like mockery and the weird persuasion thing is now a question (I wonder if it actually tracks which option you took in Act 2 and modifies accordingly) the answer to which you can again take as an incentive to be a decent person and say that you have changed your mind - or be an ass.

Edit: And to also make it clear, it could be better, but they changed what I expected to be changed from reading the patch-notes and I am happy about that.

100% agree. Before I read this article, I never had a hint that I was supposed to see him as "annoying". Where exactly? When he supports you on pretty much each rational decision? Or when he is ready to leave, just not to put anyone in danger? Gale is by far the most emphatic, friendly and responsible member of the group. All that noise is just for asking three +1 daggers from common(!) loot? Are they serious? Seems like whoever wrote the article was very determined to label him that. As for "boring" - OMG, are you damn serious? His humor is by far the best in a game, and it is not arrogant or performative, more than can be said of other characters. When he says something hilarious, he is perfectly sincere, which makes it even more hilarious. They created such an amazing, complex and relatable character. Writing, voice acting, appearance, movement - everything is just perfect. What is the point of diminishing all this effort?

The options are better, glad that they actually listen to their fans (not that I ever went for the options like that on my playthrough anyway). But wouldn't it be much more in character if Gale reaction would be just the same as when Tav proposes "open relationship"? Simply a firm "No" and he breaks up with Tav otherwise. It's just strange to have so different reactions in pretty much the same situations. And it would also feel more real when your actions in game have consequences.

If you want to go deep into it, there is a very nasty implication about insecurity in that scene. When you only book time with Nym at the brothel, you can basically just spend the time talking to her about what's on your character's mind and their boundaries. When you do this with Origin-Gale, you can find out that he is afraid of not being good enough at normal physical sex and worries he might be a disappointment, since most of his experiences in recent years were of the astral sort. So he says "no" when the relationship is concerned because it's important to him, but does not object as strongly in the brothel because his insecurities strike again and the player's wish to book one/both of Drow confirms his belief of not being enough.

I didn't know about the Origin-Gale lines. I knew about his line if you try to hire one of them in front of him: "I'd prefer you didn't do this. If I'm not enough for you, I could always conjure us some kind of non-sentient companion."

I really hate a lot of the Sharess' Caress content. It's like they couldn't settle on if they wanted it to be funny or tragic, and watching compilation videos gives me emotional whiplash. It seems to skew towards tragic though. Poor Astarion and Gale. Edit: Poor Halsin too. I forgot we learn about his trauma there too.

At least I can enjoy talking to the cat.

It does have a weird tone. I went with the drow with Gale once for science because yt only had videos about Astarion then - and I ended up feeling proud of Gale and how he took himself out of the situation eventually and extremely ashamed of my own character. I doubt this is the intention.

Gale's reaction/ feelings on the matter make me wonder what a nervous wreck he must be, if you chose the bed in act2. ^^;

So Gale can't have normal physical sex? What is the reason for this? That he's just not good at it, or has he gotten out of the habit of physicality while astrally playing with Mystra?

Eh, what makes you think he can't? Gale's whole deal is that he has extremely low self-confidence and that he believes he has to proof himself "worthy" in about everything. He finds it hard to imagine why you'd keep him around if he isn't useful. And because he spent a year in solitude and previously in a relationship with non-corporeal being, his self-doubts strike again when dealing with an area he might not be spectacularly skilled in.

Astarion in the beginning only asks what the world can do for him, what he is owed; Gale only asks what he can do for the world as not to be perceived a failure.

I understand. I don't know the path of the romance with Gale in detail, and while reading this thread, I interpreted it to mean that he is escaping physical intimacy in favor of the astral.

I think he is more comfortable in the astral because he has more confidence in his abilities there, but he expresses desire for physical things throughout the game. The thing about liking the PC's musk and the whole conversation about how stimulating fighting together is being the most overtly sexual. It's something he does like to give a try again when with someone he trusts - but not when it becomes a (perceived) competition like in the brothel. For different reasons the brothel is too much for both him and Astarion.

Wow. You are so right. I never had this option, since I never hired Sorn, but the very fact that this line exists is extremely off-putting.
Larian, what are you doing? It's just plain disgusting. If it was supposed to be a joke... well, whoever were the clowns that added this line, maybe they considered it funny. However, most of BG players are not idiots, they deserve more elaborate humor. Not about how any of your companions is "boring" in that way. And why only Gale is a target for this "brilliant" humor? It sucks.
If they intended it to be serious, that sucks even more. Then I sincerely don't understand what was the point of it all. They created such a character, made him so attractive, wrote all the amazing romance lines, gave him the hottest scene in a game (which took quite a lot of budget, for sure) and then... This. Congrats Larian, you created something people love, and now you ruin it. Very respectful of your fans. Such lines should have been removed long ago.

I think some people are frankly over analyzing the meaning of these character interactions and some of the story arcs. There is a tendency in all of these story threads of people imprinting their own experiences and issues and criticizing the writers for not being sensitive to how some people might interpret them…an impossible task in what is after all just a video game

That's it, it's a computer game and the characters will never be written for our individual "ideal". For me, the absolute embodiment of the ideal was Halsin. In the epilogue, the whole spell was broken. We were given the only option, sit with him in the orphanage or go his own way. Gale seems close to perfect, but for me he's too attached to the world of women – Tara, Mystra, his mother and later Tav. He lacks Atarion's spark, but Astarion is a manipulative beast for the entire 1st act. No one will please anyone 100%.

Over-analysing can be fun! Though in case of the thing with Sorn, why does it ruin anything? You will only ever get this text option if you play someone who doesn't appreciate Gale much - or does not appreciate him much in this regard at least - so it is a shitty dialogue option gated behind shitty behaviour.

Gale's quest - especially on the romance path - is one I appreciate more and more over time because it offers nuance instead of a good and a bad solution: It has the extremes of ambition and divine forgiveness, a middle ground between and possible catastrophe on both the ends of the scale. Of course I don't know what lights the spark for others, but for me that dialogue cluster surrounding the Annals of Karsus has become one of my favourite parts of the game. It becomes better the more variations of it I play through and I love how it can shift in tone from preachy, to cautious, to caring, to being fully delighted and on board with the whole Crown business, drawing its tension from the dialogue alone instead of from dice roles.