Larian Studios Forums Baldur's Gate III Baldur's Gate III - Story & Character Discussion The romance with Astarion pulls you over to the "dark side".

Thank you! I'll try to find the time, copy the examples and specific arguments into one post, maybe post here first, and if others approve, then move it to Suggestions and Feedback.


Yeah, I really liked that line too! He has a small set of periodically changing lines, I regularly take Astarion to the mirrors


Yeah, let's hope so. These unpleasant thoughts came to me mostly based on his "good ending". I can't understand why or what such a horrible scene is for - it's repugnant to the very idea of DnD. DnD is also about companion unity, after all, when characters with different personalities go through trials, unite despite possible squabbles during the adventure, and always become a team by the finale. Yes, there were incompatible companions in BG2 who could kill each other over the course of the game, but those who made it to the finale would never treat each other that way. It's like... some kind of "humor for idiots"??? I hope Larian really understands the balance and I'm just hyperbolizing due to my rather emotional attitude towards Astarion.


The scenes are great, it's strange in general to cut something that's already done and done well.

Oh, that's a phrase I absolutely hated to say to him at the time... It really does sound kind of demeaning.

I just worry a little sometimes, but it's hard not to worry at all when you care about someone so much. Perhaps the path of Ascension fits my character better - Astarion is strong and independent, he is not threatened much, he starts to lead himself, there is no need to worry about him and care too much. Except sometimes....

"My Lord, you forgot to wear your hat, and it's cold outside... No, no, it goes perfectly with your new suit, you look exquisite, simply exquisite!" "Oh... All right. Put it on. I'll allow it."

But seriously, the most important thing to me is that he just feels good.


I have him wearing those boots too, he kinda got them from Nere. Nice tactic with Gale!


Yeah, that's interesting! And I like how in DnD, you immerse yourself in the world and live a sort of separate "little life" there.

Yeah, that's a better title. It's like - the very essence is clear to me, but how best to express and formalize... Phew, it's more complicated and more serious than just an emotional post with my feelings and impressions. To be honest, I used to visit forums only as a reader - for information, the first time the character impressed me so much that I wanted to talk about him

If Astarion in general, I would like to somehow hint that it would be good to work more with not ascended Astarion (although, there is already a thread for fixing the ending, and there are a lot of good arguments and quite a few posts), and the evil side of Astarion is the main thing to keep in its original beauty and add or change something, then, without departing from the original idea.

Me, too! And my English is not the best. So whether an "evil Astarion" or a general Thread, I can't say, what could be better. Well, I am not so sure if I understand it well, I just want to add:

If there is a general thread: I think it might be better to separate the two things: subsequent changes by Larian vs. Wishes of the players. Yes, there is already a thread about „fixing“ Astarion's good ending and also an Astarion Improvement Thread. It makes a difference if something in the game is changed afterwards, scenes or facial expressions that were good/perfect before. Or whether players generally want different content/endings for Astarion. A subsequent change is often very problematic because everyone wants something different for his Astarion, and players who already have been through once or already saw videos/read about and loved it, will be upset about drastic changes. Subsequently changing a scene for the worse (without anyone asking for it) is what causes frustration, in the sense of "patching it to death". I am in general not a huge fan of patches and changes. New, more content is nice (and they already did great work, e.g. the new kiss animations and I am sure everyone likes it), but changing scenes is very risky, it can be better, it can be worse. So, what I ask for is to NOT change Astarion's already good cutscenes, facial expressions and content to make them worse. I know, my mentioned "gur"-scene, they surely (!) tried to make the scene better, but they (whoever did this) made it worse than better, in my eyes. So, it's really hard to explain all this in a thread and find a way for it.

Yes, of course he's doing it to get something out of it, but the way he talks about it - saying he didn't drink blood, that it's nice to inspire hope for a change sounds funny to me. Compare that to the tiefling camp celebration where he says he hates the feeling of being a hero and getting a pat on the shoulder.


We don't see that in Tav ending though. It's not the only way to test the relationship, but it's certainly a proper test when all you've done is travelling together. It's a lifestyle which is seen as the norm. Tav and Astarion in the spawn path are living like they are on holidays, sightseeing and relaxing with no responsibilities. Life is great when you're on holidays, but that's not a real measure of how a relationship will work in the end.


Of course it's an excuse but a very valid one. Ultimately it's what all of them decide together. No one sees Astarion's brethren as a problem, only the ravenous spawn.


In the cut epilogue Withers said that Astarion was sleeping together with Tav during the day. Either way, completely changed cycle or not it's still not healthy to have an irregular sleeping pattern. It's still an annoyance and they'll always have to deal with restrictions, not being able to live as free as they'd prefer. My point was that it is a codependent dynamic and it is, no matter how well they can adjust.


It's more than an allergy. With an allergy you only need to avoid certain types of food, or feel inconvenience when you have hay fever during certain months. Allergies can also be treated, while his condition is permanent. He is literally restricted from going to places and interacting with the outside world in certain ways.


I never implied that, I'm only comparing what we see at the end of the game in both paths.


He merely gets one superweapon that he's able to keep with him at all times that makes him feel safe and fearless. He's totally fine with not enslaving the brain, which would could be seen as hoarding. Again, Astarion is a vampire, which makes him a walking target, and an outcast in the society. He needs the means to defend himself.


Interesting statistics. Either way, I'm all for the good route becoming better, as long as they don't mess with the evil path in the process.

Yes, he finally has something that he can give Tav and can provide for them. It's clear It makes him feel more manly, since it's something he'd struggled with as a spawn.


'His fate is sealed' sounds very negative to me.


Well said! If Tav abandons him, he's back to square one and has to figure out what he wants to do with his life once more. In the ascension path, Tav is simply part of his world.


Fantastic images! ^^ He looks so cute with cats!


Thanks for supplementing my notion. It's exactly like you said!


Yes, it makes 0 sense, and they're definitely making him look less confident.


True! Then again, Larian removing the scenes you posted... Why? Why would they do it? It's the little moments like these that help define a character and show team dynamics. I had a feeling something was missing right after killing Gandrel.

I found another scene that was deleted for unknown reasons (here are the two variations of it):






These recent patches are becoming worrisome. I really hope they don't emasculate and defang him even further.


This. There are so many facets to him. It's wonderful!

1. Make great scenes
2. Remove scenes that are greatness.
3. Add them to the Definitive Edition, making DE great.
4. ???
5. Profit

Here are two thoughts.
1 - Practical, it was just a lot of scenes, and probably should have updated the animation, colors a bit, since Astarion has enough scenes, it just wasn't done, spending time on something else.
2 - Defang - these scenes show even better that Astarion is… have the fang, good for evil, and immoral, in the release version either, if a few puzzles got lost the big picture is visible all the same.
Gods, let it be 1.
It will be good if scenes that don't logically contradict the plot are brought back. For example, in EA he was affected by running water, now, so the dialog is not needed. A "little death" is always needed, geez.
But what are Larian doing with Astarion?
EA has had people complaining, lots of people, that companions are evil. Because Larian just didn't show the good ones at that point. It was Jeheira, Minsc, Karlach - they showed up later. It was only Wyll who still demands attention now. Now it's the other way around. The only man for evil is Astarion. Yes, Larian, that Prince is "evil", we know that. And I love it so much. Astarion fixed me for evil, completely.


Nah, not for me, never. I choose a vampire as a love interest for: decadence, danger, hedonism, passion, and domination over Faerun.
My (our) castle, ships, being on silk sheets and a golden goblet in my hand with an "Evil" King who is really happy, loves me, and got everything he wanted along the way - is the whole point of Dark Fantasy for me.
His yandere mod is understandable and nice.

There's the initially unpopular that later becomes iconic.


That's so true!

On one hand I want to be dramatic to the changes and say don't touch it. On the other, I want to be a titan and say go ahead because I want his "evil" past so badly and it would be fair to EA players who were waiting for the reasoning behind the "evil justice" theme. His quest will get deeper in general, for friendship. And honestly it wouldn't be a surprise, for those people who are deep into the darkness of Astarion.

I took the comment about not having drunk blood as a reference to the happy buff. He used to be happy after having drunken human blood, now he doesn't need it to be happy anymore. (That was a weird moment in his Origin, when Shart reminded him to stick to the provided beverages - as if he had ever taken a nibble of her ... ts) The tiefling camp is at the very beginning of the story, it's also not about inspiring hope. I thought the comment was more in line with what he says when Yenna gets kidnapped, that he doesn't want any more children disappear in the city.


The only ending we get a bit of detail for is the Underdark one, the others are all pretty open. Filling this giant hole with the most negative interpretations possible, is a choice. But what is it now? A fun holiday or a life full of restrictions and dangers that they have to deal with without the safety of a stable home? Because the latter sounds like a lot of responsibilities even if they are not mundane ones. Especially since their old travelling dynamics doesn't hold any longer now that the group has shrunken down to two people. And they don't even get to keep Scratch! (That was such a weird choice.)


Or it's simply a partnership of people who want to stick together and share a life - and it's all the nicer because both of them are free to leave. =)


Since finding a cure is the one thing that is part of every none Underdark epilogue ... anyway, he has to avoid doing certain things. I don't think he would like being called disabled or being treated that way. The easiest way to "fix" the dock ending would probably to put that sunwalking cloak from one of the previous games into Jaheira's secret chamber - or make the game register if someone has Darkness on the bar or in the bag.


But I find those tiny changes also very weird and I hope they concentrate on things that actually need fixing or could benefit from more polish or depth. I am not picking companions for an alignment but for the way they behave and it's a real shame if that gets impacted.


It just sits unused in my dialogue menu. But I hate both hearing and saying it.

I do really like NoneAs(c)tarion's (Better? =D ) dialogue's about equality and partnership. It's like being in a relationship with your best friend, which is ideal. Unfortunately, the player dialogue is handled badly. Just give me a chance to say thank you back to him instead of the stupid protection line, pretty please.

I like that at least a few people out there also find the trope of the reluctant vampire pretty frustrating.

Of course he should Ascend! hehe

That's the Fin to the vampire film I always want, but never get, usually hehe. Instead it always has to be a moralizing thing that comports with all the usual rules, so we invariably get saddled with a watered down Louis archetype instead of a full bodied Lestat. As if Vampires stories were for the people who don't want to eat, or get eaten? Come now! I mean right Lol

The best is the Vampire who just rolls with it and finds their way into their own, refines their taste to focus on eating the right sort, say dining on worse villains maybe. Recovering humanity is boring cause we already know what that looks like. The worst Astarion ending would probably be something like "Yay he's cured of his vampirism. So happy that he no longer has to worry about it at all!" Least they didn't do that.

Of course many things will push the player towards not becoming, so they get stuck outside, never invited in for the fun part.

This is my favorite vampire movie...


I mean sure it isn't a vampire movie, but it's totally a vampire movie! And that music is playing in my head pretty the whole time after Ascension, like once he's got his vampire smile on!

I had the same reaction as the OP, that maybe I'd misread some of these other companions all along, so next time just ignored them and acquiesced hehe

"Ravenous" this isn't about vampirism, though as I read it, it's of a Hannibal theme. Also a completely dark series, with Mads Mikkelsen, which has gotten an impressive amount of popularity.
However, Astarion approves of asking to keep a piece of dwarf meat, a sentient creature (of course, the deed has already been done by a goblin). But indicatively Astarion likes to watch all sorts of shows and something completely wrong.
Man not Louis, for sure.

Vampirism is fantasy, it makes it so friendly, you could even make children's cartoons.
Vampirism is interesting to me because it doesn't exist, it's easier for me to reason about.
People like detectives, to study the mind of the real criminal. Though a lot of fantasy demons find origins in reality, like innate psychopathy. But real-world topics are limited within the limits of psychology for humans.
On a vampire, real life psychology, behavior, morality can work like a crooked mirror. But that's a good thing, we can reason more boldly than within the limits of humanity.
A vampire always has a redeeming feature: blood is a necessity, a hunger, it is objective.
I'm more interested in the "fantasy demonism of consciousness" that makes creatures what they are.
Depending on the lore, there are different kinds of vampirism and attitudes towards humanity: it's on and off, it warps consciousness, in whole or in part. Sometimes it doesn't affect "humanity" at all - just eternal life, youth, power, hunger and personality do their thing. In DnD, spawns and Vampire Lords are affected by it, vampirism just corrupts consciousness. But in BG3 with spawns, I don't know.
Ascension is an even more interesting thing in that regard - maybe it overrides the rules of True Vampirism by DnD5 and Astarion "plays" Lord and is just being that person.

Yeah I was trying to find another somewhat more oblique way into it, with a slightly different frame there, since I feel like the gothic version is the more familiar. When I'm at the carnival its a bit more classic Lost Boys with the sax playing too, but for the Ascension part, that's just where my brain went with it haha. I don't know maybe it's cause of all the runepowder floating around. I enjoy Hannibal as well, or the other Red Dragon angle, although that's sorta more Durge's turf than Astarion's. It does get pretty tough to just dart past all the cells and hand wave that part of the Ascended build up, but what he don't know on that one I suppose right. I just got a bit more out of it if when I leaned into it. Felt like a much more satisfying resolution. Pretty much like the thread title said, pulled over to the dark side, even without the romance or into jaws of defeat, I still thought it felt like a better outcome for him, so just had to nod haha

Hahaha, good side swipe! Nooo, come on! It really wasn't meant like that. Everyone can call him however they want to, it shouldn't be a reprimand. You can call him how you like to. I'm only talking about myself when I said I find the creation of the name "Spawnstarion" strange.

No worries, I thought it was cute with the little copyright c in the middle, like he's his own brand, and had to play with it. All in good humour. =)

The damage's been done and the only thing we can hope for is them not completely defanging Astarion, especially that he is the only evil male companion. From what I've heard of Wyll in EA he sounds more interesting to me than what we got at release, which is a bland, indecisive and sanctimonious character that takes a back seat in his own storyline.


Time will tell. Funnily enough, judging by what I've seen here and on YT, once someone takes the ascension route they don't go back to the other path.


The tieflings are trying to reach BG, start a new life there and be accepted into the society. How is helping them not inspiring hope that they can succeed?
Ah yes, Yenna - the kid that he also likes seeing told to get lost by Tav and approves of being murdered by Orin.


A fun holiday with someone who has to deal with many restrictions?
Honestly, my problem is that the narrator is romanticising this ending, and making it sound like it's all easy and dandy, and I'm providing examples to show that it's not as rainbows and unicorns like the epilogue is making it sound. The only realism is shown in the Underdark ending and in there we can see that he and Tav are living in constant fear, which should be applicable in the travelling together ending as well. They are vulnerable wherever they go.
I agree about Scratch, why would they separate us, especially when we can see that Astarion has the most emotional reaction out of everyone to him dying?


Nice to hear from someone who didn't romance him but still ascended him.

I will most certainly have him double-ascend once - maybe when Minthy gets patched enough to drag her along for the journey. I doubt it will change my overall perception, but I do need that perfectly chaotic ending just once. (And Gale's reaction to the ascension is just too precious.)


It is at the beginning of the story and he overall seems to be more ok with doing nice things than being put on display (like at the party) or big talk. Him generally being in favour of Aylin's revenge in dialogue is otherwise also at odds with the disapproval you get for supporting her against Lorroakan and there are a few more places when it's the talk that seems to bother him, not the action. I assume he approves of everyone getting murdered? I mean he isn't to bothered by Shadowheart getting handed over to Viconia either if I gathered that correctly.


Ok, that's a position I can get behind as I also don't care for fluffing things up too much - and I also have a problem with romanticising the "evil" ending too much ... and am surprised by people who let him ascend and are then surprised that he's not a perfectly cute little cupcake. I think in the Underdark ending they also want to show that the Underdark is very dangerous as this is also a point Sebastian's letter mentions.

As for the lack of unicorns, I recently watched a video of Gale's proposal to a Mind Flayer Tav and I think that would make overall much more sense for Spawn Astarion as well - with some slight adjustments. The acknowledgement of sacrifice, the need for an openminded priest and the catering being difficult make all much more sense for Astarion than the normal dialogue.

It's also such an odd idea to think that the player just forgot about Scratch, if they went to Avernus or flew off to fight in the rebellion maybe, but otherwise? He is officially your dog, if you did all the quests.

Nice things? He approved of every selfish choice I made. If he doesn't like being put on display then why is he suddenly ok being a hero that inspires hope a few months later? That's very much putting himself on display. When he's not ascended and runs away from the sun he's ashamed to join the team later. He does a 180 without a proper explanation. A more believable outcome would have been him admitting he's working as a mercenary. I didn't get any disapproval when meeting Lorroakan and saying I came there to watch what would happen and then supporting Aylin when things started getting heated. When you betray Shadowheart he actually sounds rather concerned (I guess about his own safety) and admits he's nervous. The quaintest reaction can be seen from Gale who disapproves but then sounds pretty cool with the decision and sees benefits in it.



No. Just... no. Astarion has standards, is a lookist and would not want to be with a soulless slimy freak. Throughout the game he's the most vocal about finding mind flayers disgusting. When Tav transforms he sounds like he's about to puke. He breaks up with Tav as AA does, he's just being much nicer about it. He's the only character who recognises Tav for who they are - no longer the Tav he knew and a monster.

Ok with, he doesn't care, you get no reaction for it. When you tell Lorroakan you'll stand by Aylin's side, he disapproves, if you play it cool, he is ok with it. (As you mentioned.) When you assist Isobel against Marcus the long talky way, he hates it, if you instantly tell Marcus he's done for, he has no issues. Now he's a banisher of shadows and a lurker in. Mercenary sounds so contractual, too much, like it's an actual job. (Edit: It also probably feels more strange if you got a lot of approval for selfish choices, than if you simply got no reaction for more altruistic ones, the more likely prerequisite for the spawn ending.)


I also interpret it as concerned for his own safety. Gale is pretty utilitarian so it's one life for the possible future of the Sword Coast, it sounds detached/ melancholic to me because he probably knows what's in store for him in that moment too. I was a little surprised, though, that he is not more uneasy with the Sharrans when you have him on a pro-Mystra path.


I think you misunderstood me, I meant when you play as Astarion. Gale's proposal at the the end is unaltered for Spawn Astarion PC which makes it unintentionally funny in parts because it was clearly written with an ordinary person in mind, for a mind flayer Tav some of the text is altered to reflect the issues. Finding an open minded priest is mentioned along with the guest list maybe needing consideration and the catering having to be extraordinary - all things that should be true for a vampire spawn too. No tentacles involved anywhere in my suggestion - maybe on the buffet.

By the way, this is one of the important motivators for Tav to go "to the dark side". It is impossible to stay "on the side of good" and society when your loved one is an outcast and a target in it. This, of course, does not lead to a desire to "massacre" people around you, but if you define "good" as a certain adherence to the laws of the gods and common morality, and "evil" as individualistic thinking that despises these very laws - then Tav, who loves Astarion, eventually becomes "evil".


Astarion wants to "give" and care, he likes it and it feels like it. In the first two chapters he had to mostly "take" from Tav (blood, some help, support, etc), now he can make up for it. Curiously, when playing MF, after a while of interacting with Ascended Astarion straight-up "you start to feel like a woman", as ridiculous and corny as that sounds.


Thank you! I'll post some more.


Unfortunately, it's quite difficult to find artwork of Ascended, there are not many of them on the internet. This one, one of my favorites, in my opinion, can also be considered a part of this finale - the gentle morning sun illuminates his face, Astarion wakes up and looks at you with a slight smile



Oh, it would be nice if that's the case! No money is spared for Astarion, just so long as all those scenes actually make it into the DE and nothing is lost.


I second that. He gave me a taste of evil and its incredible freedom. His out-of-bounds, abnormal "more than just love" (only the Ascension path makes you feel it fully) plunges you into something that you will never want to "turn back" and run around Faerûn as a "classic goody-goody".


But in the actual game, in order to maintain a state of happiness, Astarion needs to bite someone every day.


Of course it is. I was thinking about your words about how bad it is when someone says: "I will protect you". It is humiliating and puts one in a dependent position, it is not right, care should be more accurate, implicit, "invisible", so that one does not feel weak. Although I myself really like Ascended Astarion's lines on the subject of Tav's defense: "You have nothing to fear anymore." Perhaps it's because Tav isn't particularly afraid of anything anyway, and it's taken as a sign of attention and an opportunity to enjoy the sight of a confident Astarion. The Ascended Astarion probably won't suffer from "overprotection" either, and any attempts to protect him by Tav will be perceived as "so cute" and elicit the appropriate reaction. This is not the case with a unascended Astarion, and obvious attempts to protect him will only cause additional psychological discomfort.


Yes, that would be much better. And it does feel like a very close friendship.... To be honest, after the relationship with the Ascended Astarion, it would seem to me that it would not be enough (even if Astarion could be healed and make everything really good). A relationship with Ascended Astarion is some kind of "maximum love", one can hardly imagine anything more. Both in terms of being able to give (on Tav's part) and in terms of how he takes it and what he gives in return.


Yeah, what I love about the game is the lack of moralizing. I was really afraid at first that there would be some kind of payback for Astarion's Ascension, some kind of classical morality etc. But that's not in the game! "The Dark Path" is immensely satisfying. I can literally feel how Astarion feels good, how he enjoys his new power and new opportunities, and since empathy for my favorite character works to the max, it's impossible not to share that and feel the same confidence, strength and freedom that Astarion does.


Ha-ha, and at first, while I was "playing for Gud", I was sure that it should be like that, and I got very, very angry when I found out the exact opposite. Here's how to look at it - from the point of view of justice for Astarion, this option would make the "good way" at least some adequate replacement for the "evil" (although to get nothing at all for two hundred years of "pure shit" and just roll back to the original is not that fair either). And in terms of originality of the story, of the storyline - yes, you're absolutely right. It would have made the story trite. Instead we have a version of the tragic Astarion with clipped wings, which of course is extremely unpleasant to go through (but no one is forcing you to go through that), but makes the story much more realistic.


When faced with something new, and this story is certainly a brand new word in the RPG genre, it is not always possible to interpret everything correctly at once But the more emotions in the process of playing the game, the greater the pleasure in the end, including the pleasure of opening new horizons for understanding. What Astarion can really do is surprise the player in a way that no other companion can. And this happens repeatedly throughout the game


Congenital psychopathy is about Veliot, in my opinion. Cazador is already more of a manufactured, secondary psychopath wannabe. I guess it's hard to show a truly "evil story" without the participation of some psychopath who will start another chain of "evil, pain and suffering" by his actions, magical worlds are no exception.


The hardest thing to understand is how an immortal being who has lived for more than a hundred years might feel, since there are no real examples of such a thing. What is two hundred years of torture? What is two hundred years of power and authority? There's a lot of room for imagination here...


Ascension completely removes all vampiric restrictions and problems from Astarion, while endowing him with all the perks. And the best thing the author managed to make Astarion is his multifaceted personality, vampirism does not define him, it is one facet of his nature. Astarion's personality is very interesting to explore, he is truly alive.

Regarding the discussion on the topic about the Astarion cutscenes - a thread has been created in private with an invitation for Zayir, Ametris, LiryFire. If anyone else wants to join (or, on the contrary, excluded from the discussion), write to me. I moved the post there. Ametris, thanks for the new info, I'll try to move it and edit the original tomorrow!

P. S. I apologize that I can't keep up with the forum discussion in time. I'll reply or comment on the rest a bit later.

Ah, in that case they should indeed make sure it fits him too!


He becomes more confident and responsible, takes Tav's wellbeing seriously, wants to provide for them and keep them safe. I really like it, also the fact that he stands his ground and is not afraid to call you out if you're acting stupid.


Beautiful. <3 That's a delightful morning for sure. ^^


Yes, you get to experience the full intensity of his love and character, not just scratch the surface.


Being friends with your partner is certainly an important part of a relationship, but feeling like you're dating your friend? Uh, not for me. Imo partnership bond should be something deeper, unique and transcendental, which we do get to see in the ascended path.


This just shows that an evil ending simply works better for an evil character.

This is one of my favourite videos about him that nicely depicts that.