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apprentice
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apprentice
Joined: Jan 2024
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Wyll can also be good in melee with Pact of the Blade.
You can respec Shadowheart to Knowledge Domain cleric and use her Knowledge of the Ages daily action to gain proficiency in all Dexterity skills if you'd like her to skulk about like a rogue. While you are respecing her, perhaps also add more points to Dex as well, although using either Gloves of Thievery or the Graceful Cloth (cat robe) to gain advantage on all your dex checks can also work.
"He that can smile at death, as we know him. Who can flourish in the midst of diseases that kill off whole peoples. Oh! If such a one was to come from God, and not the Devil, what a force for good might he not be in this old world of ours."
-Bram Stoker, Dracula
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addict
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addict
Joined: Sep 2022
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First play through I used SH as party thief. Slight respec'cing, and picked Skilled feat - she defaults to sleight of hand, stealth and perception. Add ring and gloves, voila, a passable rogue.
DCs 25-30 were challenging, but for portals Gale has Knock. For traps, I used barbarian Kalach.
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enthusiast
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enthusiast
Joined: Dec 2023
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See, I don't use haste potions. I avoid scrolls whenever possible. I don't touch most consumeables. I ignore bombs and I don't even throw healing potions.
I feel all these little things make classes less special and ruin the strategic aspect of combat. This is why I would hate a lot of playthroughs and a lot of people would hate mine.
With scrolls, arguably you don't need caster classes at all. Ever. With healing potions (and haste), you'll never need healing spells, as the right configuration can throw 6x of them per turn. Explosives can kill anything, alive or not, before combat even starts. The enemy will be very happy to watch barrels slowly appear out of thin air.
I've experimented with all of those things. I decided I like none of them. Therefore they're banned in my playthroughs, and spells slots actually matter. Long resting too little will never be an issue (if you keep casters around). Spending all your spells slots too early in the day is still a bad idea, at least if you try to get the most out of 2 short rests. Which I will. Again, personal preference. I despise excessive backtracking, so I will just not.
I also don't play warlocks. No matter how I play them, I feel like another class can do it better, or they're multiclassed to the point that the warlock levels are really only flavour. This is probably how you feel about rogues. I don't think we'll ever agree, so it is what it is. No, I like rogues just fine. I just think they are easily replaced in the party, because the mechanics they are supposed to be good at (stealth, lockpicking, trap disarming) don't pose any challenge. Lockpicking is easy due to overabundance of tools, last I've tried stealth Laezel in heavy armor could do it, and I never found any traps as dangerous in BG2. And I think your post kind of showcases that, that you need limitations to even make certain roles feel more useful. Which is why I wrote in the beginning that no role is necessary.
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journeyman
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journeyman
Joined: Dec 2022
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If anyone wants the best offensive spell a Warlock/Wizard can have without having a party member in that roll, any member can have Eldritch Blast. At Level 4 you get your first Feat. Choose "Magic Initiate : Warlock" and grab Eldritch Blast. I gave it to my Rogue Thief, and still managed to get him up to Dexterity 20 by level 12. Eldritch Blast also makes use of Sneak bonuses. I do also have Wyll in the party with Hex and Eldritch Blast, but honestly I could replace him with any other character (Jaheira/Halsin/Minsc/Karlach) and not feel like the party is degraded. Quite often if swapping out a party member has been needed for parts of characters stories, Wyll gets left behind (I bring him back afterwards though because I do think he balances out the party nicely, but I don't consider him necessary). Edit: Funny side note about my game - Gale, when I saw his hand beckoning me to pull him out of the portal, I just didn't grab it. "Nope nope nope, you can stay there you PITA"  so he's not an option to include at all.
Last edited by 4lt3rn1ty; 26/01/24 12:08 PM.
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journeyman
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journeyman
Joined: Sep 2023
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I am doing my first run trough the game and I'm trying to do it with pure class only. I've made a custon paladin as the main character and plan to go with a Fighter Lae'zel, a Thief Astarion and a cleric Shadowheart. So sadly, it won't have any spot left for an offencive caster. Will it gimp my team to much ? Will it gimp my team to much ? Yes!!! Fortunately, BG3 offers a massive amount of gameplay freedom to help with that. So, don't worry too much. In this game, all players should always do what they like to do. No class and no companion is essential. In particular, you don't need a companion or a class/subclass for getting the capabilities of an offensive caster. In BG3, every player character (main or companion) can acquire at least some of the Wizard/Sorcerer class's most iconic spellcasting capabilities (or the equivalent). Depending on how the player sets them up, all the player characters can - attack enemies with popular spells such as fireballs, - summon one or more highest-level creatures, - counter enemy spells up to about level 4 and - use a huge variety of spell-like abilities. Note: to achieve the above capabilities in the game: - Multiclassing is not required - Potions are not required - Scrolls are not required Als note: Although no class or companion is essential, you do need - one way or the other - the magical capabilities typically associated with offensive casters, such as Gale, in order to have a well balanced party.
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journeyman
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journeyman
Joined: Sep 2023
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There is a difference between regularly resting before hard combat encounters (and to progress the game)... and resting because that one character once again ran out of spell slots well before everyone else. It annoys me to no end. Even worse in the early game when level 2 spell slots are somewhat precious. I'd rather have characters that are actually good at each of their niches and reserve enhance ability for important checks. Saves me hours of backtracking by the time I'm done with a playthrough. What you describe was not my experience in BG3; there are simply too many scrolls and potions available even on early levels for spell slots to matter all that much. And even for a utility character, I'd take a warlock/bard over a rogue, since you get both the spell and expertise, and eldritch blast to spam for the cost of one level. Though I prefer two levels of warlock for the invocations. What I have run into in BG3 on the other hand is companion cut scene weirdness. Because it is not a game that rewards limited resting. And I think it can be difficult to tell, on a first playthrough, when exactly you have to hit that camp rest button to progress their stories. See, I don't use haste potions. I avoid scrolls whenever possible. I don't touch most consumeables. I ignore bombs and I don't even throw healing potions. I feel all these little things make classes less special and ruin the strategic aspect of combat. This is why I would hate a lot of playthroughs and a lot of people would hate mine. With scrolls, arguably you don't need caster classes at all. Ever. With healing potions (and haste), you'll never need healing spells, as the right configuration can throw 6x of them per turn. Explosives can kill anything, alive or not, before combat even starts. The enemy will be very happy to watch barrels slowly appear out of thin air. I've experimented with all of those things. I decided I like none of them. Therefore they're banned in my playthroughs, and spells slots actually matter. Long resting too little will never be an issue (if you keep casters around). Spending all your spells slots too early in the day is still a bad idea, at least if you try to get the most out of 2 short rests. Which I will. Again, personal preference. I despise excessive backtracking, so I will just not. I also don't play warlocks. No matter how I play them, I feel like another class can do it better, or they're multiclassed to the point that the warlock levels are really only flavour. This is probably how you feel about rogues. I don't think we'll ever agree, so it is what it is. There are a lot of misconceptions about spellcasters. My most favorite class is Sorcerer. = Re: long rests In this game, all characters eventually need a long rest or lose at least some of their abilities. It's a misconception that warriors don't need much resting and that spellcasters need a lot of resting. For anyone who doesn't play spellcaster classes a lot, to give you an idea how much resting a caster-heavy party needs: My "Gnome Durge" (that's her name, a multiclass Sorcerer) with Shadowheart (Trickery Cleric), Karlach (Frenzy thrower/thief) and Astarion (Rogue/Ranger) did all the following without even a short rest (information here is intentionally obscured): - Explored this game's only vampire lair and wiped out the entire faction via large-scale battles in one go; - Completed this game's most difficult rescue mission in one go (everyone survived); - Destroyed the entire faction of those who warship the Wave Mother (their allies included) via several battles. Not even a short rest was taken! I also rarely use potions (exceptions: used some for that rescue), don't use scrolls in combat (no exception), or stuff like that.
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old hand
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old hand
Joined: Jan 2023
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There is a difference between regularly resting before hard combat encounters (and to progress the game)... and resting because that one character once again ran out of spell slots well before everyone else. It annoys me to no end. Even worse in the early game when level 2 spell slots are somewhat precious. I'd rather have characters that are actually good at each of their niches and reserve enhance ability for important checks. Saves me hours of backtracking by the time I'm done with a playthrough. What you describe was not my experience in BG3; there are simply too many scrolls and potions available even on early levels for spell slots to matter all that much. And even for a utility character, I'd take a warlock/bard over a rogue, since you get both the spell and expertise, and eldritch blast to spam for the cost of one level. Though I prefer two levels of warlock for the invocations. What I have run into in BG3 on the other hand is companion cut scene weirdness. Because it is not a game that rewards limited resting. And I think it can be difficult to tell, on a first playthrough, when exactly you have to hit that camp rest button to progress their stories. See, I don't use haste potions. I avoid scrolls whenever possible. I don't touch most consumeables. I ignore bombs and I don't even throw healing potions. I feel all these little things make classes less special and ruin the strategic aspect of combat. This is why I would hate a lot of playthroughs and a lot of people would hate mine. With scrolls, arguably you don't need caster classes at all. Ever. With healing potions (and haste), you'll never need healing spells, as the right configuration can throw 6x of them per turn. Explosives can kill anything, alive or not, before combat even starts. The enemy will be very happy to watch barrels slowly appear out of thin air. I've experimented with all of those things. I decided I like none of them. Therefore they're banned in my playthroughs, and spells slots actually matter. Long resting too little will never be an issue (if you keep casters around). Spending all your spells slots too early in the day is still a bad idea, at least if you try to get the most out of 2 short rests. Which I will. Again, personal preference. I despise excessive backtracking, so I will just not. I also don't play warlocks. No matter how I play them, I feel like another class can do it better, or they're multiclassed to the point that the warlock levels are really only flavour. This is probably how you feel about rogues. I don't think we'll ever agree, so it is what it is. There are a lot of misconceptions about spellcasters. My most favorite class is Sorcerer. = Re: long rests In this game, all characters eventually need a long rest or lose at least some of their abilities. It's a misconception that warriors don't need much resting and that spellcasters need a lot of resting. For anyone who doesn't play spellcaster classes a lot, to give you an idea how much resting a caster-heavy party needs: My "Gnome Durge" (that's her name, a multiclass Sorcerer) with Shadowheart (Trickery Cleric), Karlach (Frenzy thrower/thief) and Astarion (Rogue/Ranger) did all the following without even a short rest (information here is intentionally obscured): - Explored this game's only vampire lair and wiped out the entire faction via large-scale battles in one go; - Completed this game's most difficult rescue mission in one go (everyone survived); - Destroyed the entire faction of those who warship the Wave Mother (their allies included) via several battles. Not even a short rest was taken! I also rarely use potions (exceptions: used some for that rescue), don't use scrolls in combat (no exception), or stuff like that. Rogues that aren't magically inclined don't lose any relevant abilities through lack of long resting that don't come from gear. Monks bleed KI points as much as spellcasters. Actions surge requires short rests, as do superiority dice. Spellcasters can last for a long time, as can Barbarians. They can also last for exactly one battle. It depends entirely on how you play them and which level you're at. I don't think anyone here actually thinks otherwise.
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old hand
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old hand
Joined: Jan 2023
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See, I don't use haste potions. I avoid scrolls whenever possible. I don't touch most consumeables. I ignore bombs and I don't even throw healing potions.
I feel all these little things make classes less special and ruin the strategic aspect of combat. This is why I would hate a lot of playthroughs and a lot of people would hate mine.
With scrolls, arguably you don't need caster classes at all. Ever. With healing potions (and haste), you'll never need healing spells, as the right configuration can throw 6x of them per turn. Explosives can kill anything, alive or not, before combat even starts. The enemy will be very happy to watch barrels slowly appear out of thin air.
I've experimented with all of those things. I decided I like none of them. Therefore they're banned in my playthroughs, and spells slots actually matter. Long resting too little will never be an issue (if you keep casters around). Spending all your spells slots too early in the day is still a bad idea, at least if you try to get the most out of 2 short rests. Which I will. Again, personal preference. I despise excessive backtracking, so I will just not.
I also don't play warlocks. No matter how I play them, I feel like another class can do it better, or they're multiclassed to the point that the warlock levels are really only flavour. This is probably how you feel about rogues. I don't think we'll ever agree, so it is what it is. No, I like rogues just fine. I just think they are easily replaced in the party, because the mechanics they are supposed to be good at (stealth, lockpicking, trap disarming) don't pose any challenge. Lockpicking is easy due to overabundance of tools, last I've tried stealth Laezel in heavy armor could do it, and I never found any traps as dangerous in BG2. And I think your post kind of showcases that, that you need limitations to even make certain roles feel more useful. Which is why I wrote in the beginning that no role is necessary. Lae'Zel? I extremely doubt that's true on average. Unless you cast spells on your party, non stealth characters are usually found pretty quickly. This would be well balanced if it weren't for invisibility and pass without trace. You need limitations to make any role useful, If you look at speedruns. Again: it's not about being *useful to me*, it's not *torturing myself*. Why play less efficiently than I could? Why carry 30 kits and fail 5 times on average? A shadow monk or a specialised bard can fill your rogue slot, as well. It's really a matter of having a rogue type accessible since day 1 when you actually need them, and in harmony with the party. Stealth is not optional if you need it, but then again, you don't need always surprise rounds to win nor high initiative, it just helps. What rogues have over bards is that they're better assassins. What they have over monks is that they're not melee. What they have over both is higher expertise more quickly, depending. You ultimately "need" a rogue type, not a literal rogue. I find gloomstalker/(fighter)/assassins the most enjoyable until roughly the end of Act 2, but that's just me. I'm extraordinarily lazy. If I'm not making use of something, you know the situation is dire. Alarmingly dire. I personally find some mechanics Larian uses to be explosively anti-fun, so this is how I play.
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journeyman
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journeyman
Joined: Aug 2023
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Honestly melee is much stronger in this game than casting. Like there are some broken caster builds but overall, melee is better.
You group will be fine.
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