Larian Studios Forums Baldur's Gate III Baldur's Gate III - Suggestions & Feedback Uncalled for changes made to Astarion's animations and restoration of scenes from EA

Authors of the post: Zayir, Ametris, LiryFire.

"Dear Larian! We noticed some changes relating to camera angles and facial expressions in the latest patches and hotfixes regarding the scenes with Astarion. So we'd like to give our Feedback.

Some cutscenes and some facial expressions have gotten worse. Changing camera angles and faciacl expressions should be done very carefully, especially when the old ones fit perfectly! Subsequent changes can change the whole atmosphere of a scene.

Here are scenes and changes we noticed so far, which seem unnecessary to us, as the previous versions were better, and we suggest to bring the old ones back or to repair the bad changes.

----------------

Gur Scenes after Ascension of Astarion: some of Astarion‘s facial expressions and some camera angles have been changed.
We add some pictures as examples: Left side is the old version. Right side the new version.

At the Beginning Ulma says: „Hold there, spawn!“ and Vampire Lord Astarion is laughing: „Spawn? Ha!“ and further:“ I am the Vampire Ascendant, (Pause) Gur! And I thought I was done with your wretched little tribe.“

Picture 1 and 2: When he is saying the word „Spawn?“, on the old scene he had an angry (eyebrows are pulled together and down) and only slightly disgusted (nose wrinkled) facial expression, but in the new version only a disgusted facial expression (no anger anymore, as if he had bitten into a lemon).



Picture 3: After this he said proudly „Vampire Ascendant“, he looked very self-confident (it also fitted with his voice) in the old version, but in the new version.. WHAT THE HELL IS THIS!? A strange mixed sad-concerned-fearful expression. Oh please!

Picture 4: When he says „wretched little tribe“, on the word tribe, he had that great proud self-confident, arrogant laugher, and in the new Version? Only disgust! Hello lemons again! (such an ugly face now)



Pictures 5 and 6: Lateron he says: „You can’t blame a vampire spawn (…)“, in the old Version he has an angry facial expression and looked straight (!) to Ulma, he can maintain eye contact. In the new version he has a concerned facial expression and is looking down. (So, where did his arrogance and confidence go?)



Picture 7: Again you changed his more relaxed slightly angry, arrogant (Don’t mess with me!) facial expression to an unrelaxed very disgusted (Yuk, you are disgusting!) facial expression.

Picture 8: This is, when Tav can choose an answer, and Astarion is standing in the background. Old Version (left): slightly angry, but more relaxed expression. New version (right): Sure, that you tried hard enough to show, that he is disgusted? Well, more disgust in a facial expression was not possible, eh?!



Who decided to ruin Vampire Lord’s self-confident facial expressions? Please, bring his pride, arrogance, self-confidence, anger (and dark beauty) back. The old facial expressions fitted perfectly ( matching his arrogant behaviour, which you hear in his voice) and it was a great scene before, showing that he is proud and confident of his dark side.

Also: the time the camera focused on Astarion is cut, and it stays on Ulma more now while Astarion talks. The previous iteration was much better.

Larian, I know Astarion doesn't think highly of gurs and gnomes. I don't have to watch Astarion wrinkle his nose like one of the Malfoy family to realize that. That's enough. Seriously. I just love seeing his Lord smile, mocking at someone, and calm, soft too. Will I see them somewhere else, somewhere new? Just bring it back. The change in picture 4 is too drastic. Especially since there's literally laughter in there.
I still think that if there's a villainous cartoonishness in Astarion in the "evil way", but he still has enough emotion, including really funny, even gentle emotion to be complex and endearing.

Please Larian, the person in charge of the animations is too fond of the "Evil Has a Bad Sense of Humor" trope.
Put the animations in the hands of someone who likes the "Affably Evil" trope, which Astarion tbh and "Even Evil Has Loved Ones".

It's also been modified his animation in the epilogue post-final battle and we cannot see his face as much anymore when he does his fantastic evil laugh - the camera jumps to Tav instead. Then it's also been altered him in act 1 romance scene during goblin party to make him look scared and worried. In patch 5 it's also been changed his behaviour when you're about to go with him spend the night together for the first time and he doesn't look as seductive anymore.

The change in Astarion's behavior in the first romantic scene during the goblin party (Astarion looks scared and worried) does not fit the character's personality and contradicts his entire line of behavior in the first chapter.

The last thing I understand in this world is - Why does Astarion fear Tav, after choosing the goblin side?
I chose the "path of evil", with a man for the "path of evil" and now Astarion is afraid of evil? Nonsense.
That can't be, ince would need to be rewrite the whole character from 0, since he has lines about "massacre" even in act 3.
He approves too much in Act 1 to be afraid of Tav, for a little terror in the grove. Which he himself wants and calls it fun.

Fanon and Canon - going two different ways, people like to paint Astarion as delicate. He's really fragile, like with a love interest, yes. And even then, not always. Otherwise, Astarion can pierce your eye with a dagger - he's dangerous vampire.
I love that duality, he's a fancy and he's an absolute predator.
Larian, "Draco in Leather Pants" exists, you don't have to listen, they'll do just fine as they are.

There is a theory that Astarion is worried about the female drow camp, not Tav. There are reasons. However, no, I don't think so, Astarion knows how to stand up for himself and rip someone's throat out if need be. He is admired for strength and killing skill. Therefore, he approves of Lae.
Two brothers killed in the swamp.
Gale: These killings were deliberately brutal. There's something near that relishes in carnage.
Astarion: Although whoever killed them did a masterful job.

And the savagery and debauchery of the goblins - there's a line.
Astarion: Not that I approve of goblins, of course - filthy little beasts - but I do like a good den of debauchery.
He's almost Jareth partying around the campfire with goblins.

It takes too much rewriting to make it sound like Astarion is afraid of Tav, who does what he "approves" of meta, and dialog. Seriously, just bring back the release or explain it, and that he's afraid of Tav I won't believe, that he's afraid of the drow I will believe... barely.

There are some questions about the romantic scene in Act 1, after he says: "Indeed you will, my love." (that's okay!) when he says "I can't wait.", he looks concerned now with loosing focus in the eyes (the picture below), a sign of sadness. At least, what we can say, it's more concerned and less seducive. Left side the old version (october 23) and right the current version. Other parts of the scene has gotten better, this one worse (in my opinion). He does indeed look more lively and more playful before the romance scene but also less smouldering and sexy in some parts.



"I was holding back a little, it's true. I didn't want to lose control." - He's playful and has a genuine looking smile. He's also still in his seductive character and looks at Tav from the corner of his eye. Now he doesn't keep any eye contact, his eyes wander in several directions and it's clear he's lying.



"( I ) didn't want to lose control." (old scene we had the view from the back after "I")



"I didn't want to go too far." - Again makes it clear he's lying but on the other hand his vicious smirk is kind of endearing, like he's gloating over the fact that he managed to lure Tav in his trap. In the old version it seems to be a mix of him trying to come up with a sexy reply and maybe even fantasising about the things he could have done or would like to do next time.



During a conversation in the camp, after the line: "And I do mean sex, to be clear. We've been waiting long enough," a pained expression appears on Astarion's face.



His face a look of some sorrow, some uncertainty, as if he's waiting for rejection, somewhere mixed with disgust, as if he's not so eager to do what he's just offered. A searching and pained look in Tav's direction. Wanting to hug him and ask him if he's okay, how he's feeling, talk to him... It feels strange somehow to just ignore it, to not try to find out what's going on with him. It's a painful expression, if you transfer it to the "reality", then with such an expression on the face of the partner will clearly want not to have sex with him, and find out what is happening to him. This is totally not a face of someone who is supposed to be a master seducer. How is that supposed to convey arousal and willingness to get intimate with someone? He looks like being in pain and agony, about to cry every moment.

He used to be very seductive in the first scene, it made it possible to fully believe in his desire on the first playthrough. Now there was a need to immediately plant doubts in the player's heart? The romance with Astarion is literally built on the effect of surprise - he amazes and surprises three times, every romantic scene. I completely believed in his sincere desire then without any other thought (I certainly didn't count on "love" from his side right away, but I was sure of his sexual desire, it seemed to me that, having broken free, Astarion wants all the pleasures of life, including this one). This allowed me to be so sincerely struck by his confession in the second act - to feel pain, deep tenderness, a desire to cherish him, shame for myself and guilt (because Tav, being sure that Astarion wanted intimacy with her, was probably "behind the scenes" showing excessive initiative, not realizing Astarion's true feelings). If a "note of doubt" is introduced right away without any additional lines, I don't know how it would affect the first playthrough without spoilers, for example.

I must say, the new version of act 1 romance is not bad, in my opinion, some facial expressions are more lively and better. For example "there is a secluded place nearby, that should do nicely" and his voice is laughing after this sentence, but in the old scene the laugh was not visible on his face, and now they put a nice open laugh on his face, where we can see his teeth. But maybe a few are strange, like when he comes from the tree and just before he says "there you are".. his face or his mouth is.. strange pressed together, unrealistic, like it is bugged. In the dialogue after the sex scene, when Astarions says "I was holding back a little, it's true" in the old version he is more playful and cheekier. During the line "I didn't want to lose control", he was seen from the back and looked like he was in control of the situation, brazen and alluring. In the new version he looks more concerned, the focus is now on Astarions concerned face, instead of showing him from the back.

I'm conflicted about the new animations for post final battle private chat. They look more fluid and Astarion doesn't look as stiff with hand gestures but I think the frequent close-ups on his face are a bit distracting, especially since in some of them his skin looks extremely pale compared to other shots. I also miss the little head bow after selecting 'I wouldn't want it any other way', his cute smile when he says 'that makes US the most powerful people in the world' and I preferred it when he closed his mouth after the laugh - now he looks a bit derpy as the screen blackens. I like extra smugness on his face when he talks about the power and his newly added smile during the line 'true... freedom'. Tav looks happier too and doesn't cross their arms like before, which is a big plus.

Videos for comparison purposes:

OLD VERSION

[video:youtube][/video]

NEW VERSION

[video:youtube][/video]

Scenes and facial expressions matter a lot, later changing a scene for the worse as well as removing scenes from the game is frustrating for players who have played the game before, seen a video of a previous version or read about it. Dear developers, you did a great job introducing a lot of new, good content (in particular, beautiful new kissing animations, great lines when Astarion saw himself in the mirror). But we'd like to ask you not to change the scenes with Astarion, which are already great, not to change his facial expressions or the content of the scenes. Astarion is a great evil character, his image in Act 1 and Act 2 is beautiful, as well as the image of the Ascended Lord, we would very much like you to keep this image intact without departing from its original intent."

I support that. I've seen Lord's facial expressions in some moments made less predatory in some moments. But in others there's too much expression that it really gets cartoonish. Astarion is generally very artistic, but he keeps the balance.

And those changes in patch were too much like in act 1, there's no understanding what's going on in 1 act at all.
Everything was perfect on release.

First the restless voice in Goblin party. But Astarion literally approves of the whole massacre, in the dialogs and meta-"Astarion approves" on the right.

Facial changes.
Kind of... Astarion has lust for Tav, too, a physical attraction, without emotion, superficial, but he understands the pleasure of lust. (unless you're playing OOC of course)
No? Because the script says very different things. And it's things are just better.
That he had some purpose other than hedonistic lust and forgetfulness, doesn't change the fact that Astarion, that trickster, was manipulative too - shooting two birds with one stone. "I get fun, I get Tav on my side". That's why he sleeps with Lae if he doesn't have Tav, and I think Astarion realized that gith wouldn't defend him for having great skills. But at least he got fun.
The problems with sex and lust begin when he starts having deep feelings.

Tav: Are you not attracted to me? Is that it?
Astarion: Of course I am - look at you! You're a vision. And you're so much more than that. ...I don't know what to think. I don't know what I want.

Another version of the dialog:
Tav: Were you even attracted to me? Or was it all a lie?
Astarion: Of course I was attracted to you. Look at you, for goodness' sake!

I'm beginning to doubt whoever's changing the emotions has even read the scripts.
Work on the game will still be years away, so I think this will change back and forth. For now, we just need to look at the script imho.

Yes, and during the passage it just felt like Tav was attracted to Astarion physically, that it was a pleasure for him, even though he's closed off emotionally, periodically "repulsed" and "prickly", he likes what they're doing. What would one think looking at his anguished face the moment he proposes sex? It doesn't fit the script at all.

Just to add to this as reference and to compare two outcomes.


It's clear in that video that he is more relaxed in the daytime version, which is strange considering he enjoys the goblin party more.


The last face from the Gur scene and his "I want to have sex" face are so bad now they make me chuckle when I look at these pics.

After "Patch 6" I'd like to add a new thought to this suggestion Thread about Astarion's new patch 5* altered facial expressions at the confrontation with Ulma/the Gur after ascension:
(*or probably a hotfix after patch 5, but I'll call it patch 5 here)

Astarion's facial expressions and body language in the new kiss scenes/kiss voice line scenes Patch 6, which also occur directly after the ascension (outside the palace), show perfectly, what an ascended Vampire Lord is capable of: Pride, self-confidence, dominance, power and Enjoyment of being dominant and powerful

But in the confrontation with Ulma, just shortly before you got out of the palace, Astarion's "new" (and now current) Patch 5 altered facial expressions show quite the opposite: disgust, concern, and even a bit fear or rather sadness. (With patch 5 changes he looks more like pre-ascension in this scene, Prepatch 5 this scene was better). This in turn contradicts the scenes just before, when Astarion says, e.g.: "I am the greatest vampire to ever walks this land!" or his answer to Jaheira "Please do, I would love to have you for supper", and where he is shown and he behaves very self-confident. So as it is now, it is inconsistent and contradicts itself.
It was already kindly asked to bring the old pre-Patch 5 facial expression (self-confidence) back to him (see OP), so to not let Ascended Astarion look weak and insecure or rather not let him look like he perhaps would have behaved pre-ascension, where he had less power.

But now, that Astarion got these new perfectly self-confident facial expressions in Patch 6 ( I applaud for these well-made expressions!), I kindly ask you to improve these patch 5 insecure facial expressions of Astarion in the post-ascension Gur scene, so that the facial expressions and Astarion's voice lines (confident) will fit together and also that the scenes right before and right after will not contradicts the confrontation.

That means, either bring back the old pre-Patch 5 facial expressions, as it is asked in OP or improve the post-ascension Gur scene with some of Astarion's new patch-6-kiss facial expressions. (And just to be clear, I don't mean to kill Astarion's character or other scenes, but to give him self-confidence toward his enemies/Ulma, as it has always been in pre-patch 5)

I'll add a picture as an example of Astarion's new facial expressions of the Patch 6 kiss scene. I hope to see these amazing powerful and confident facial expressions in scenes, where Astarion is confrontating his enemies, that means, especially the Gur scene post-ascension. Thank you very much.

No criticism intended but I’m quite taken aback at how passionate the Astarion fans are.

It’s funny because I never liked him in EA but I almost always include him now, and find a party without him to be missing something. I think the writers and Neil Newborn did a great job. Glad that NN received some well deserved recognition.

Great picture! This is exactly what he should look like. He is confronted by the Gur in his moment of triumph when he's mad drunk on power, feels invincible and is filled with dark satisfaction, but suddenly he looks worried and fearful? It doesn't make any sense.


To be honest, things here were quite calm until the recent patches started messing with the things we experienced and liked. None of the other characters got downgraded like that (except for Minthara in the current hotfix).

Thank you, I take it as a compliment. Yes, Neil did an amazing job and because of that, Astarion is so full of different emotions in all 3 acts. You can hear in his voice, how he (Astarion) is feeling. People love that. And of course, Astarion's sarcasm is hilarious. The voice actor deserved them all.

I noticed a weird thing in the game. While this is not a change, it's certainly something uncalled for when it comes to Astarion's animations.

Agree with OP and the other authors of this thread. Astarions facial animations and sometimes his body language have been messed about with a few too many times, sometimes you have no idea what to make of his reactions any more as they don't make sense.
And Ametris - those elbows are awful, how on earth did those animations get past testing?

I guess the same way Minthara content gets tested.

Since hotfix 21 my Tav also keeps enthralling him when I load the save from the moment of making the big decision in the final battle. They only work together as a power couple when I load the save before the boss' HP reaches 0.

Totally supportive! I really like Astarion's new self-confident facial expressions, and they fit the moments with our enemies (especially Ulma) just right. It seems a bit odd that Astarion is bestowing such an expression on his beloved, and yet is worried before his battle with Gur. He is already a Vampire Lord, he has regained his confidence, he feels strong, and he may well demonstrate that confidence against the enemy. Special thanks to Zayir for such wonderful footage, Astarion is gorgeous! <3


Oh the horror of it... Elbows are like a wooden man on hinges or something...

I'll throw in my three cents.
Weird animation. Has anyone noticed, but starting with patch 4-5 this weird wrinkle appeared. I first noticed it on Astarion. But if you look closely at the other companions, they also have it.


Well, and the neck fracture in the turning scene. Astarion literally makes you lose your head.