Larian Studios Forums Baldur's Gate III Baldur's Gate III - Story & Character Discussion The Emperor tadpoled us!

Or maybe he finally hit his limits because of the ungrateful brats he keeps saving all the time that can't stop whining about him being a mindflayer, because after all him being one is the only reason why everyone is still alive

*Am implying the party characters here being brats, not players. Hopefully no offense was taken*

It's important to understand that him being a mindflayer has been used against him from the moment he started existing, to the point his own friend even tried to murder him. He's been forsaken by everyone, cannot create any connections with anyone and is clearly suffering from loneliness as the only person he gets to interact with after all these years is the main character. So naturally in an intimate moment where he thinks he has a connection with us (because one can't get this scene by treating him poorly), he'll get infuriated when after everything we've been through and everything he keeps doing for us, we're still discriminating him for being a mindflayer, especially after he already said he has no reason to lie anymore.

So yeah... if you wanna keep thinking of him as just a manipulative monster that's using you and by doing so dehumanize him, he'll show you the monster you think he is if you insist being a stubborn mule about it. Because not everyone reacts the same way, Karlach for example if you break her heart will threaten to murder you too with a ton of rage. Minthara does not even require you to hurt her feelings, she'll threaten to gut you just for thinking about it.

So you know... you can reject him politely without being mean about it. Therefore I disagree that he should call players out on it being hurtful, because I'm tired of all our companions being agreeable stooges without any rough edges in their personalities, discussing feelings and singing kumbaya around the campfire. Screw that, finally someone who has balls between their legs and isn't afraid to stand up for themselves. Hurt his feelings, treat him like trash and he'll fight back. He does not take tsk'va from anybody!

Say, Crimsom, did you just write a justification for why Ascended Astarion is a good guy actually? Because everything you wrote in the (edit: by now second to) last longer text is applicable to our dear scheming vampire lord. ^^


No, the ones who do what needs to be done are Gale (unless you talk him out of it) and Orpheus. The Emperor does not face any repercussions from handling the stones, it already is a mind flayer and eating Orpheus is just a delicious snack and a power boost for it. Everything it does is convenient for it. Gale by contrast is also terrified of the Brain winning, he is so terrified that he accepts morally corrupt solutions to have better odds for the final battle, and there is an possibility for you needing to go through three rounds of talking him out of exploding because he believes him dying is the safest solution to the problem. (Which, true, it's easy mode.) It was the most uncomfortable conversation I ever had with him as my partner. Three rounds, three, on top of the ones we had in the Astral Prism. And Orpheus is much the same. though with less fear, more ratio and a lot less words.

As to forcing our hand, after accepting the first additional tadpole, our hand is forced. If your player character fails the WIS save, they are forced to consume the Astral tadpole and become partial illithid. Trust the Emperor once and you are done for.

Fear of not being enough (low self esteem) is also the motivation for both Astarion and Gale to follow down their ascension paths. Both think they are pathetic as a spawn or as a human and try to be something better, not seeing that they are pretty awesome the way they are. Giving in to those worries changes them both for the worse. To paraphrase Lae'zel, trusting in your own immense talents and the mighty company you keep, should be enough - Power is only a good thing as long as you do not loose what makes you you for it. Which is why squid Orpheus asks for death in the end. He is most scared of loosing himself.

The scene also serves to contrast the Emperor's cold, immoral outlook. Orpheus willingly makes the sacrifice to become a Mindflayer without hesitation and knowing that he won't be the same person and a potential threat to others he asks for the release of death. The Emperor, when put in a similar situation, would rather survive for survival's sake even if it means that he has to walk over the bodies of is friends and allies. I don't get how anyone can watch that squid snack on the brain of such an infinitely more noble man without wanting to kill him. The fact that the Emperor then has the gall to tell you not to judge him is merely the icing on the cake.

*shrug* I'm exclusively talking about the Emperor here. Never played through Astarion's storyline, so I wouldn't know nor see any reason to have it brought up.

And no, he does not only do what's convenient for him. He's a heavy pragmatic, one who did everything in his power to ensure survival and freedom, but if he can't have it then so be it. If he is betrayed he accepts that he can no longer have his freedom, so he joins the Grand Design instead so that he can at least live as a slave if he can't be free. Even his fate defining moment is not born out of malice, he just wants to live.

As for the tadpoles; incorrect. Do remember that the tadpole's cravings for power take control of you for the first time ever when you interact with Edowyn's corpse, which you can fully resist by passing a Wisdom check.

So no, he does not manipulate you into using them at any point throughout the story nor forces you to. He merely suggests, the choice however is always yours. He merely mentions they'll enhance you (which is true) and that we'll need to become stronger to face the Absolute (which is also true) and that he'll protect you from ceremorphosis (which is also true for unconsented ceremorphosis from the Absolute), so the decision to use them is exclusively up to you.

Then he offers you the Astral tadpole which isn't being forced upon you, instead your illithid parts of your own body are craving for it due to its power. If you consume tadpoles, your tadpole is once again craving for power and you need to pass yet another Wisdom check. So this is in fact your fault for accepting to consume them in the first place knowing their effects, because you wanted to get strong. Why is it now an issue suddenly that you're being offered more power? Because of the yucky face?

you don't realize one thing.

now we assume ansur never try kill emperor, but emperor's surviving must exchange by ansur's life.
you tell me, will emperor kill ansur?

i can tell you, the answer is -- "yes, emperor will kill ansur without even a bit pity."

if emperor needs whole toril exchange his life, and then he will give toril to the one who can spare his life.
if emperor needs to be a slave and kneel down in from of netherbrain to do anything just for surviving, and emperor will just like a dog kneel down in from of netherbrain.

so, how can you give the 3 stones to emperor, how can you put toril's fate on his hand?

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you also talk about omeluum and our other companions.
why we are not so strick to them? just because they are not touch the level.

omeluum might be the one who can see righteousness beyond his surviving.

as for our other companions, they are bound by tav.
if you choose your options carefully, they can not do any big harmful things.
here, we also need to know one thing, without tav the origin characters will only play every kind of bad end, just as a wonderful tragedy movie show on the screen.

Incredibly easy, because the Emperor never did anything wrong to me and because I can read characters, so why in the Nine Hells should I give a damn about some dead worm who even admitted he wanted to provide him a merciful death?

The way I see it is this;

• He saved me and my companions multiple times
• He never lied to me after he got revealed because everything he said turned out true (regarding the Absolute I mean)
• I sexed him because it's a once in a lifetime experience, can't pass that on that
• I gave him the stones and he destroyed the Netherbrain
• I got rid of the tadpoles
• He went his own way
• I ended up married to Minthara
• All my companions are blissfully happy and satisfied.

WIN WIN WIN WIN WIN everywhere! I got EVERYTHING I wanted.

So... why exactly should I care about the Emperor's personal life or even about some dead stupid worm that tried to kill him years ago, who only ended up proving he's extremely stupidly stubborn by trying to kill me TOO thinking I'm the Emperor's thrall, even after telling him I'm not? I don't give a damn about Ansur, the damn dragon doesn't listen to anybody. What did he ever do for me other than try to kill me?

*Naturally I'm sad that he's dead and am regretful about what happened between the two of them, but God damn if he ain't an incredibly stubborn character that makes zero case for himself other than repeat the same mistake again.*

he is just "yet to do".
but for surviving, you can expect emperor will be the disaster to whole toril.

now is fine, just because everything is under emperor's control, and you haven't violated his will yet.

someday, if you find emperor's dagger stab in your back, you needn't surprise.

just as many emperors to the masters of great achievements, the emperors decide kill the heros.

Maybe he would be a disaster for the world, maybe he wouldn't. Nobody can say for sure.

What I absolutely do know however is;

• If it weren't for him, I would be dead.
• If it weren't for him, all my companions would be dead.
• If it weren't for him, the entire world would definitely be dead.

All he wants afterwards is remake the Knights Of The Shield. It's the reason why Gortash even found him to begin with, so surely it wasn't a bad thing for the city considering how it prospered under his influence. But regardless of what drives him, his actions saved the world and ensured I have a future afterwards.

no, emperor is just a chessman who is made by the God of gods, important, but can be replaced by others if necessary.
if this chessman once loses his value, the God of gods will abandon him immediately, and make another chessman to replace emperor's place.

this chessman exists to the final, just because he is a valuable chessman for the aim in AO's eyes, enable AO knows mortal's worth in tav's heart(your heart).

He's supposed to be Balduran, but what you're describing there is cowardice.

Wanting to live at the exclusion of all other things is not really an admirable trait. Wanting to live at the expense of giving up his freedom and returning to thralldom, letting hundreds of thousands of others die because he's afraid to live if his own plan isn't the one that saves the world. If that's who he is, is just an irredeemable coward. I'd rather live in Orpheus' kingdom.. Thanks.

I think he's an interesting character too, but no matter how honest he might be, he's not the guy you'd want to hand the launch codes too, if you take my meaning. And in this context, the stones are effectively exact that.

A coward, oh really? What else is he supposed to do when you betray him?

And yes, you do betray him... or do I need to remind everyone that even Orpheus is not deluded to such fact;

"You rejected the illithid when it no longer suited your needs. No doubt you freed me because it suits you now. I will neither forgive nor forget your abuse of my powers.

You had the opportunity to surrender yourself to my Honour Guard. They would have given you a noble end. Any worthy individual destined to become ghaik would've done so! My guard would have freed me, and I would have stopped the elder brain before it evolved into a Netherbrain."

It's funny how players only judge and condemn the Emperor, but refuse to judge their own character who is just like him. Tell me now... why did you not let his Honour Guard simply give you a noble end just like Ansur wanted to give the Emperor? Are you a coward? Willing to kill everyone to save your own skin? Willing to betray your very guardian, the person who saved you so many times? How many died so you can live?

Or are you simply a survivor, an opportunist JUST LIKE THE EMPEROR. Wanting to be free, wanting to live. Someone who is fighting to survive, someone who doesn't want to do these things, yet must do them in order to survive because there is no other choice.

Because Orpheus is 100% right. A true hero would have surrendered to his Honour Guard and accepted their fate, allowing his Honour Guard to free him so he could stop the Grand Design before it even started. Yet you murdered them all to survive and then you exploit him just like you exploit the Emperor as you choose who to discard the moment it suits you. And you can call it whatever you want, but at the end of the day you're the exact same thing that you're condemning the Emperor to be. Someone who is killing others so you can live, just because you're a ghaik-wretch in their eyes and they won't stop hunting you because of what you are. You're literally going through what the Emperor has been going through his entire existence, yet for some reason he is a villain for doing so and you are "a hero". "A hero" who betrayed his own guardian the moment it suited you because you had an alternative, unlike him who never did.

As I keep saying the Emperor is a pragmatic, not a coward. You betray him and he has no other choice but to surrender his freedom because he was right about Orpheus, Orpheus would've killed him and you without a moment of hesitation, he even admits it. So of course he'll join the Grand Design because he has no other alternative since you signed his death sentence either way. Orpheus would've never let him go free after what he did.

That's kind of a silly presumption. Let me help you along with my admittedly one-sided and linear approach to this...

So, I was never actually in the astral plane when that happened. I was in my home office playing Baldurs Gate3. Unlike many modern games, this one is not 'open world', and as such, I can't really make my own rules entirely. I am somewhat bound by the narrative of the game. The available options at that time consisted of 'kill the honor guard', or 'Die'. Die is your suggestion, however, if I have a solution that free's orpheus AND is not fatal, I don't think that is a bad move on my part.

You see, at that point in the game, you don't have the orthanc hammer, nor could you. So the 'choice' you're laying out for me (and by extension, my character) doesn't actually exist. As the player I have quite a lot less free-will than the writers.

So, I was never presented with that morality play. My option was die and never try to finish the game, or play along until such time as I could attain the necessary equipment to rescue Orpheus -- I should point out, this is something I would have said to that cocky green man, had the writer of the game provided me such an option, however, once again... I was somewhat bound by the narrative.

I want to be clear that I'm not trying to be condescending here... But Orpheus and the Emperor can't possibly know when I made that decision.

It turns out, I decided I was going to save Orpheus when I clicked start. The mechanism to get it done required me not doing things according to his personal code of honor, but I'm sure he preferred what I did over having his brain eaten by Illithid Karlach, which is another option that was on the table.

Well I'm talking about our main character, not us as people sitting behind a desk and not having choices we want because we're bound by narrative.

The narrative is crystal clear and it sets the main character as a reflection of the Emperor. Just like the Emperor the main character is also manipulating, exploiting and doing what they have to in order to survive, including killing people who don't deserve it. Orpheus' Honour Guard were just defending their own Prince from ghaik wretches and our main character murdered them for their own needs and then proceeded to exploit the Prince until he either becomes an alternative or doesn't. Regardless of whether we have a choice or not, that's what our main character did and that's why they're the same as the Emperor.

And at the very end the main character has only two choices; either they betray the Emperor who does not deserve it or sacrifice Orpheus who also does not deserve it. That by default makes our main character exactly as the Emperor, a survivor doing what they must in order to survive. There is absolutely no justification one can give me to justify either of them dying, because;

• On one hand they're betraying the very person who protected them all this time and asking for nothing in return other than to stick to the plan
• And on the other hand they're sacrificing a Prince who clearly does not deserve it either

No matter how one turns it around, the main character is a bad person too by definition then because in order for them to live, someone who doesn't deserve it must die.

That is the narrative of every living thing on Earth. Life feeds on life, innocent life or guilty life. So when broken down to that level the character and the player aren't meaningfully different. While typing that, a handful of presumably perfectly pleasant peanuts who were killed as feed for their overlords possibly weeks or months ago finally came full circle and delivered their delicious calories to me.

But lets not get too far down that rabbit hole. As I mentioned earlier, based on the Emperor's actions, there is no way to clearly distinguish if his plan was in fact his own, or if he was playing a role assigned to him by the brain. As soon as his plan goes up in smoke he joins the brain, without hesitation. Abandons 'his?' plan rather completely and this exposes (in my opinion) that he was never a free mindflayer at all, just a tool of the brain whose mission had failed. He then is found fighting to protect the brain, not to protect his freedom, not trying to find another way to bring his plan to completion.

I don't believe that result was the act of the free soul of Balduran in Illithid form. I believe that was the final unravelling of the Absolute's agent.

How someone acts in moments like this is when they show their true self; when they reach their limits. The point that you keep missing is that while you empathize with his behaviour, I do not. I find it disturbing and evil.

As for him being judged for being mind flayers, the lack of trust my character has shown him was only towards the end. Because there was nothing trustworthy in his behaviour. The only aspect of the emperor's characterization that is unusual was that he retained his memories. Otherwise he acts like the dedcription of a mind flayer from wikipedia.

As for the 'should have rejected him politely'. Someone telling you they don't trust you is not the mistreatment you try to make it be. My character called him no rude words. It is not some sort of fantasy racism, since this is what you have tried to compare it before. It is the result of the emperor's own actions; my character had no issues trusting Omellum. And I don't think a slaver who threatens to go back to his old ways is someone who has 'balls between their legs'. He is just another creep who cannot handle rejection.

you should sacrifice your tav self, and why not?

see this youtube --

from this video, you can see prince pass your test, but emperor fail your test.

by the way, i modify the last post, just i rush release hours ago.

i should remind again -- "if you are afraid of sacrificing self, you never know the meaning of living. ".

surviving is important, this is yes.
but, there is something beyond it, this is the finishing touch for the meaning of our lives.

Actually it's crystal clear that it's his plan because if you don't follow his plan you die and become a dominated mindflayer. And if you do follow his plan the Absolute gets killed, everyone becomes free and ends up living a happily ever after.

So what kind of a stupid ass plan would it be for the Absolute to have her own agent deny her the only weapon that can resist her and then end up sabotaging her and getting herself killed through her own agent following her own plan? He even steps in to save you before she turns your brain into mush after doing it to Gortash, even says herself that she deliberately set the Emperor free so that he thinks he broke free on his own, which shocks him greatly.

I truly do not understand where this entirely illogical theory comes from when the story is quite coherent, logical and simple.


To clarify I understand your point quite clear and I am not "okay in character" with the way he lashes out either. But I do understand where it's coming from because unlike Omeluum the Emperor's character has a ton of emphasis around the racial theme of whether he is just a typical mindflayer or an individual. So it does play a huge factor because how the player perceives him is how he ends up behaving.

That's why as a character he's a mirror of the main character. If you're nice to him, he'll be nice to you. If you're not nice, he'll not be nice either.

i ensure, you are using emperor's view to see the game world.

however, emperor isn't the center of the game, and you escape face the emperor's fear -- "fear death".

and you say that no emperor no us, i will say the God of the gods won't allow the chess game be stopped just because of a failed chessman, this you can see my last last post.

Again, there is a rather large difference between someone openly distrusting you, and someone forcing boundaries in order to intimidate you. Your argument about not being nice frankly sounds like trying to bring them to the same level, and that is something I don't agree with.

As for him being a mind flayer, my character was distrustful towards the guardian even when I didn't know they are a mind flayer, while I never had an issue with Omeluum. The writing is lacking both subtlety and skill. The manipulation is obvious, and with the changed tadpole mechanics, absurd to the point of being cartoonish.