Larian Studios Forums Baldur's Gate III Baldur's Gate III - Suggestions & Feedback Astarion romance improvements

I know you are answering on DarkangelBeckons, but I just want to say: I like him having power over my Tav. Not everyone is complaing about that. BUT, my Tav wants to enjoy it like he did before the patch. They DID enjoy Astarion in the romance scene, the same as Astarion enjoyed Tav, even if you kneel down. I guess you haven't played AA Route, because there are a lot of differences in the scenes and some things don't fit together now. If they want to show him as an abuser with no love left, THEN, they need to change the Romance scene into a Rape scene, and evyerthing would fit together ;-)

From what I've seen it's either the lip bite or just a random one from his default kisses. Nothing new there for either Astarion.

That is too bad, such a good chance for a desperate possessive kiss animation. =D

I have played the AA route a few times. I like it. I have played basically everything except Origin Astarion because I'm busy these months. I even datamine every scene he's in to check the devnotes, which are not much kinder to Ascended Astarion.
A Tav can absolutely enjoy being degraded (the insight check says as much) which is why I pointed out Tav's facial animations don't make a lot of sense in that specific situation. Astarion's, however, do.
What do you think doesn't fit together now? An abuser can still feel love and be abusive, it's not so black and white, I think, and he doesn't need to be raping anyone to be abusive, there is much more nuance to abuse. But Ascended Astarion's whole life philosophy is obviously going to extend to his relationships as well.

It doesn't fit together because Tav has a disgusted face after the kisses and looks like he would prefer to break up. But before the patch he enjoyed Astarion. I like the kissanimations itself. But in these facial expressions you do NOT FEEL any kind of love between them. But the Player did feel love between the two in the Romance scene. That's a huge difference. And YES, as you said: Tav CAN enjoy being degraded (and so my Tav would like to do this), but the kiss animations do not SHOW or let my Tav do it. And yes, if you say the animations make no sense, so we are saying the same ;-)

He thinks Tav is degrading himself by being with him. WITH HIM. He's right, because life with decadence, he's not a fairy tale prince "and he knows that's what you want." Also shows his insecurity and hurt self-esteem during the years of slavery, not that "Tav is being humiliated, disrespectful, lower". He wouldn't be saying "we" and a bunch of other stuff if that were the case. I think narcissistic-dominant-obsession with a vampire is more complicated than that.
Are we talking about the post-breakup dialog when he became a powerful vampire Lord and was rejected? I'm surprised he's not hissing.
(although my Tav has already been punched in the face, why should I say anything)

Just because he looks at everything as power and control doesn't mean he has to tell Tav to take a knee all the time. Well it's just a cheap thing. What's next is writing on the board "I'm yours" 100 times. Ridiculous.
Power is not shown just by kneeling - in general this is exactly my complaint. Why is there no such thing before the ritual with him since he's prone to it? It's not revealed. My second complaint.

For the Lord romance, there are answers for the power couple, too. For a power couple, equality isn't necessary. The dynamics will be more complicated. A lady was not equal to her Lord and could not ler go in medieval, and when that Lord is a vampire all the more so. But my Tav has already been poked in the face, lol.
The very attitude of having an affair with Mintara is different - adding a frightened face to a kiss with her.

What Larian was trying to say was in EA when Astarion was a slave trader. What we're seeing now is that Larian wants to sell.

I absolutely agree.
The kiss that was Karlach's, is fitting
Kiss with a bite, quite, kick in the face is debatable, Tav looks - just awful.
The knees are a joke, from someone who doesn't understand dominance, pure fanservice.
And since Astarion has such kissing tendencies I want to explore them before the ritual. Maybe with a spawn to relax him if that's the kind of kissing he likes.

More dramatic my opinion here and an important part of it - Why people love and want toxic, complex and GOOD vampire romances psychologically speaking.

Thank you @Zayir. That is exactly what I meant. ?

I don't think the insight check is about his low self esteem at all- the writing intent is pretty clear, at least to me, and the breakup dialogue line I'm talking about doesn't seem like a random bluff like the rest of his breakup dialogue ("you'll be lonelier than I am", "You will regret leaving me, more than anything you live to regret" etc, those are clearly very influenced by his emotions), it adds up with what's being told there.
There is an interesting argument that I agree with that might align more with that idea- that is that the degrading yourself line is about still wanting to serve Tav in their possible degradation kink, because why else would they choose to be with the Big Evil Vampire Lord, if not that? But I don't think this is him thinking "oh, I'm so pathetic and worth nothing, I don't deserve Tav, they're so much better than me" but rather "This is who I am now, this is who Tav approved of me becoming by giving me all that power, and they know that being with me won't be a relationship between equals. So if they kneel they're accepting to be demeaned by me. But maybe they like it, and I can definitely give them what they want then. Maybe this is all they want me for, and I can now provide".
Of course our opinions can differ, but I'd say the intent was pretty clear. What we do with that intent is up to the viewer, of course. I also think sometimes we just have to say we disagree with the writer's intent and engage with, say, fanfiction. It's not the case for me right now as I think what they're exploring is interesting, but I definitely disagree with other things the BG3 writers have stated about Halsin and Astarion, for example.

I also think power dynamics are not explored previously because the dynamics are completely different. In act 1 he's trying to manipulate you, and then in act 2 onwards (until the ritual) he's being very vulnerable and is putting off sex completely. Then after the ritual if he ascends the dynamics completely shift. That's bound to make the way he acts towards Tav change.

I think he makes you kneel because Tav kneeling before they're turned wasn't special to him. He is trying to humilliate Tav, perhaps under the idea (correct or not) that they enjoy it, with the added bonus that he likes having that power over someone. That's the entire point of making them kneel wherever whenever. That is how I always saw it, even before this patch. I love the Ascended romance, but I think I see it very differently to most other Ascended fans I see.

Also, to address the Slaver thing- I often see this piece of misinfo (or rather, inaccurate info) being thrown around. I've been playing Early Access since it released if it's important for what I'm about to say, and I've been aware of that article excerpt since I started playing. It's from February 2020, a journalist's report of something Swen said when showing a beta version of EA, 8 months before Early Access released.
We don't truly know if that was actually part of his backstory when EA released, because no actual details about it were in the game. Whatever seems to point to his corrupt magistrate past is still in the full release (His racism towards the Gur getting him killed, his disdain for other slaves) save for some strange cuts like him saying he would've cut Arabella's hand instead of killing her, but the strange cuts have happened to every companion and seem unrelated to a writing vision, since some other new lines were put in like his view on Justice during the Ansur quest.
I'm the first person that would ADORE him being a really really evil corrupt magistrate, I've been advocating for it since the beginning and was excited for the full game exploring that (I was very disappointed) but the truth is we don't know if that was still part of his story when EA released. The artbook doesn't point to him having been a slaver, but does point to other corrupt shenanigans. I will however note that much to my disappointment the artbook seems quite outdated, so that's not a promise that it is the current vision for him.
Also, for whatever it's worth, during Early Access his writer alluded to that Feb 2020 excerpt during an interview saying that it wasn't part of the story anymore. I've also kept an eye on Early Access datamining (which of course doesn't show the full picture, as not everything would be in the datamines obviously) and no traces of Astarion's slaver past were there. There were traces of a different Cazador quest though, very interesting stuff.

In the playthrough, Tav was not mean or demeaning to him. Never broke up, or anything like that. She is Dark Urge. So, the part of the animations not linking up with all the other stuff is that she looks frightened. She didn't even look frightened with Bhaal...why would she be frightened now? So, the only part is that the animations are not linking up. Domination is not abusive, nor is it public either. That is self-explanatory. And also...just to add it in, this is not how the story was portrayed by the writer, VA, in any scene up to this patch (patch 6). My Tav would not be scared of him. So simply, Tav's expressions do not match up in the kissing scenes. It doesn't even match the new pre-epilogue party scene/after destroying the brain scene. I am looking at his whole story, not just a line here or there. There are tons of lines & I am going on how the story presented itself in the game, per the writer, and the knowledge of those closely associated with who were involved with him during the creation of the character up to the point of what I played in the patches leading up to this one.

Then we agree that Tav's expressions don't make sense. I do think the game does present the idea that Ascended Astarion isn't exactly a good partner and wants to demean Tav. Lines do mean things and paint a full picture sometimes, but overall that's the tone he uses for things, at least in my opinion.

What writer statements are you referencing that indicate they've said Ascended Astarion's relationship with Tav is that way? The statements I've seen from the devs so far were
1. Lead Writer Adam Smith saying that Ascended Astarion is still Astarion, but he's been sent to a horrible place and that Tav has supported the idea that he is right to be afraid 2. Neil Newbon saying Ascended Astarion doesn't use theatrics to cover up his vulnerability anymore 3. Neil Newbon being a bit confused at someone calling themselves an Ascended Apologist 4. Welch, the writer mostly responsible for Astarion's act 2 and 3 romance (yes, Rooney is his main writer, but Welch DID write most of the romance, as said by Rooney himself on two occassions) giving their insight on why they think Ascended Astarion is toxic towards romanced Tav and their intent, the latter of which I disagree with kind of since I don't think it comes across.

The closest one is the fourth, but the others are more about AA than his romance. I don't mean this to be mean, I'm legitimately curious because I'm always compiling info, and I welcome any new tidbits.
It's also worth noting that several devnotes that have been there since release point to the intent behind Ascended Astarion's attitude towards Tav being jerkish. One of them straight up says "slightly abusivey". I can upload screencaps of the ones I can recall if needed, because they do show the writer's process.

@jinetemoranco : I am talking about the more recent interview of the writer that came out not long ago. Also interviews he has done more recently & also the things stated by Neil.

Also during the Dark Urge run, even Scleritis (the butler) states you don't want him for sex or just his looks. And you have the option to explain all this to him, before asking for his help to stop you from killing him due to your "father's" wishes. I made the roll & passed. He knew exactly what I thought, allowed him to make all his own choices, and didn't push him one way or another. I play both sides of him, I have both spawn & ascended. But the toxicity that you stated, never came through in my game. AT ALL.

Can you link it, please? I think you might be talking about the Adam Smith one, which doesn't really say much about his romance. I haven't found any new Rooney ones. It's also worth noting that Adam Smith's job is to overlook the arcs of the entire game, I imagine he's not particularly involved with Astarion.
The only things I've seen with Neil is him talking about how he trained his mannerisms to differentiate the two and how he goes from "theatre" to "opera". Plus the thing where he didn't like someone saying they were an Ascended Apologist.

In the meantime, here are the devnote screencaps I was talking about, since they might be interesting to someone:
https://imgur.com/a/fwJDUJq

The problem I have with the new kissing scenes is close to what Zayir voiced. It feels disjointed from the narrative up until now. They are trying to hammer home their point about abusive Astarion with a sledge hammer now and it just feels cheap. Like they don't trust in their own storytelling anymore. The hints are there from the beginning that this will sooner or later turn into something toxic. But until now this has more been a creeping development. Tav could still hold up the illusion of him caring for them in all eternity. Yes, his lines were pretty on the nose at times ("you'll be wonderfully obedient...."), but he was still mostly trying to manipulate Tav, telling them "what they wanted to hear", being all seductive and ingratiating.

While I've always found his change of behaviour after the ritual a bit too sudden, it is now just jarring. He goes from seductive/manipulative to right on full abuse in an instant. Remember also that everyone still has their tadpoles. He can't use his coercion power on Tav and he has not really developed all of his powers yet. When you ask him about his powers, he is pretty peturbed about them not having shown themselves yet. It does not make any sense for him to go full on abusive on Tav as long as they can still break up with him and he can't do shit about it. Astarion has been shown to be a survivor, using all of his assets to get out of a situation alive, it's very OOC for him to not play it safe for the moment.

For me, the kneeling kiss is just way too much. Tav could just say "nah" and Astarion couldn't do anything about it. He'd not risk that. This kiss would be perfect on the other hand for the epilogue party, showing the development the relationship has taken the last six months with him getting more and more powerful and now able to control Tav. So, for now, Tav should have the chance to very much be into the rough kisses, at least the Karlach kiss and the lip bite.

And talking about the lip bite - why is Tav suddenly pouting about that? They could have been offering their neck to him every evening, but suddenly a little bite is making them all resentful?

And about the degrading line: I have written this in another post, but this line does not make any sense for the romance path. It is a callback to a dialogue option you get on the friendship path with him after the Araj incident in Act 2. Tav can tell him that he has great power over people and should use that to his advantage (this is just one out of many dialogue options - you can also tell him that he can stand up for himself). Then he gets an epiphany and says "Yeah, it's not degrading that I get on my back to get what I want, they are degrading themselves to fall for it!" So, there are two problems with the degrading line:

1. He only gets the idea that falling for his seductions is degrading for the people falling for it when talking to Tav on the friendship path.

2. We are on the romance path and Astarion had already gotten past that notion. He wants to be something real without manipulating Tav because he actually has caught feelings for them.

The writing is extremely inconsistent here. And with the newest patch it has only getting worse.

In one of the romance party banters that never trigger, Astarion can tell one of the other companions (don't rememer who) that he turned Tav so that they could never leave him. That in iteslf is abusive enough. Keeping someone under your control (and with a true vampire towards their spawn this is literal) because you want to possess and control them is horrible. We don't also need the total degradation from day one with kneeling, hurting and telling Tav they "deserve a treat" like a dog. It's just cheap shock value (and unfortunately fan service for those who are into this) and devaluates a well written story IMO. It was not needed.

It is, isn't it? I just had a line about Gale starting a book club with the other spawn I didn't notice yesterday either and a joke from Shart. oO

Yes, he remains insecure despite all his power, he still needs to get used to it and can't just discard his feelings with a wave of the hand. He was suffering from self-esteem issues before the ritual and he is still the same person after it. He thinks you deserve someone better than him, but if you are into being humiliated then he shall provide and enjoy it thoroughly. I heard that in the German translation it is specifically said that he thinks he's not a good person and that's why you're humiliating yourself by being with him. Besides, he'd already shown hints he has a domination kink and is fantasising about being rough with Tav.

As for the ruination dialogue - it takes him 3 days to calm down before he can even speak to you. No one else takes the breakup as bad as he does. I think he's saying what would hurt Tav the most. He had all this time to prepare his speech. As his VA stated, and what is noticeable in the game he drops the theatrics after ascending. Yet, in this one and only scene he actually goes back to them. Notice his body language, how he moves. He even bows down mocking his old behaviour saying how he's discarded his former self. He's extremely hurt and wants you to feel bad for abandoning him. I don't believe his threats because of it. It's just a case of sour grapes as I've seen someone nicely put it.


Honestly, I'm tired of it. How about they let people roleplay however they want. If someone wants to roleplay this as an abusive relationship there are ways to do that. If someone wants to have a power couple dynamic it is also possible to do it. They keep contradicting themselves all the time with the narrative, it's clear someone from Larian hates Astarion and wants to push the abuser theme down people's throats. It all feels like it's written by at least two people who keep clashing and can't decide what he should be like. I want to roleplay a power couple dynamic, my Tav loves dark Astarion and knew what she was getting herself into. It was her choice. I don't want them to railroad my decisions.

It's funny, really, they hate him, yet they keep giving him new content, while the spawn path has less things in it, now they even gave him the promotional smirk and allowed you to rule the world with him. They're basicly showing ascension is his canon path with these decisions.


I like it but I wish it was more situational. Because of this I will avoid kissing him in public and just do it at camp or when no one is looking. It's a private moment and cheapens the kneeling scene if it's repeated like that. I like your suggestion to make it an epilogue kiss. It could show that Tav has fully embraced the power dynamic between them and is ok with all of this. They really need to fix it being available right after ascension and before the actual kneeling scene.

I can't stand Tav's scared facial expressions. My Tav would not behave like this!


Exactly, what is even funnier is that Tav is already a vampire then. I'd expect them to enjoy it and actually lick their lips after it while giving Astarion a lustful look.

Yes, this is is typical behavior for someone who has been hurt but is too proud to admit it. I always interpreted his lines as him trying to get back up on the high horse. "Yeah, it was really better for you that we broke up, I would have just been horrible to you" But at the same time, as the survivor he is, he understands that you are better as a powerful ally than a powerful enemy, so he wants to get back on your good side.


At this point I don't really know what their plan is anymore. As you say, on the one hand they are giving the demeaning kisses on the other "now you can rule the world with him" (where Tav obviously is in charge). It's very confusing.


Agree, this is my biggest gripe. At least make the expressions neutral so we can decide for our own characters.


Ha, ha, yes, it's all very baffling. I think they just overshot the mark by a margin.

It really does boil down to Tav’s facial expressions. Which look particularly weird because they also always enthusiastically participate during the actual kiss. It’s the before and after that feel way off.

The line between abuse and kink is consent. Given that Tav agrees to become his spawn, can leave him at any time before the epilogue, and is asking to be kissed, I’d like to think Larian was trying to show a domination kink and got some details wrong.

Although it does feel like at least one writer can’t wrap their head around why someone might be cool with being the submissive partner. Especially when we have options like “Come on, let it hurt.”

This! He felt crappy about himself the whole time, and believed he had nothing to offer, but the moment he feels at his best, is grateful to Tav, finally has something (power, a castle, riches) and can take care of them, wants to give them the biggest honour a vampire could give to someone they loved, Tav just nopes out of it. No wonder he's crushed and becomes vicious.

Makes me remember that dialogue option where he snaps at Tav: "Spite made me who I am!".


Yes, Tav's expressions are the crux of the matter and nullify the consent part. Larian is clearly sending confusing messages and it looks like the writers don't know how to handle Astarion with care.