Larian Studios Forums Baldur's Gate III Baldur's Gate III - Story & Character Discussion Fixing Astarion's "Good" Ending

Oh, I am sorry. I was talking about the "I promise I'll keep you save always. You'll never need the power of an Ascendant." line that shows up after abandoning the ritual.

I despise this line. First of all it is insincere, especially if you play as a human or another race with a short lifespan, but even for an elf their eternity is relatively short compared to that of a never aging vampire. It is also insincere in and of itself and exactly the trite sweet nonsense that was made fun of during Act 1.

Secondly it renders the whole non-ascension path moot. The non-ascension paths for both Astarion and Gale is about them being enough as they are and that power is found in trust and friendship/love, in balancing each other out rather than in making the ultimate power grab in the vain hope of compensating one's insecurities. They are both enough just the way they are.

A line about how Astarion helped the player character in the past, or an affirmation of the two of them having each other's back would have been much better here. Astarion has several lines to that effect, the player has very few. I think the "no matter what happens, I got you" that leads up the graveyard is the only one.

Regarding Karlach. I'd rather not have her dialogue there changed because this lashing out is part of her. She has a couple of moments during which she makes another person's problem only about herself, for example when Wyll is charged with Mizora's quest in Act 2. In this instance you can call her out for it and I found that rewarding. The self-centredness that lies beneath her whole cute and peppy demeanour is one of the few things that make her interesting as a character. Otherwise she is just a cute Mary Sue everyone is supposed to love.

I think there are also versions of the dock scene with Astarion's Origin on yt. You have to ignore that he's in underwear, but it has most of the companion comments.

Oh i see!

I still didnt see much of the dialog, i usually pick the lines that encourage him to stand by himself in a healthy way (not the ones about mantaining the master-slave dynamic, i feel like i have to clarify that here, not to you directly). I think the real freedom in life is accepting yourself in a way that you dont "need" any kind of relationship to feel complete. It's a real danger to, instead of working on the autonomy of an abused person, create a dependant relationship, where you are "the protector" putting yourself above the other. I like the line he says about loving each other as equals. That's what i feel is most healthy and liberating.

And, well, love doesnt need to last forever? Another misconception... either can tire of the other, that's just life. Maybe in a year they hate each other x)

So yeah, i understand! I play as an old-ish elf? so yep, Id like to say to him "i will do my best to help you find a cure" (because its what he wants to do, if he's not lying) but you know... we better hurry?

I wanted to love Karlach so bad! im a metalhead, and i was born with her name, so everyone was, oooh you are gonna love her. But i suppose i am in an age stage that... i feel more like her parent than her friend, so her tantrums tire me more than anything. If that treat you mention is so important to her, maybe is the player that could have a couple more reactions to choose from. Like, i understand that you are angry, let's talk whenever you are less mad, i am always open to have a chat if you want, and then leave.

Thank you so much for the link! - yeah the internet is THIRSTY, my campaign buddy played the entire act 3 in the angelic robes, so... yep, it is what it is.

There also is a beauty to love not necessarily lasting forever or being eternally bound by dark magic. It means that it's something precious that you hold dear and work for every day a new. It's a choice, freely made, instead of a fate you are bound by and condemned to - which again ties into the whole idea of equal partnership.

I really want to like Karlach too - but if a narrative wants me to feel for a character too badly and I notice it, it backfires so badly. ^^; That one feels more like a parent to her is a very apt description.

New lines for the docks scene seem to be incoming!

Oh that is good news! Better than any kisses.

(Well maybe not than any but better than Astarion's minus the old one. Anyway that is such a nice surprise.)

I'm very glad to hear the dock scene is being altered. It just felt so weird. I wasn't romancing Astarion the first time I saw it and even then it felt off.

I agree with the people saying that the 'good' ending isn't very good from unascended Astarion's point of view. He gets vampiric hunger for all eternity, while his friends grow old and die, eventually leaving him alone. I would like to see him taking more control of his life at the end, either choosing to remain in the shadows or pursuing the idea of a cure.

The romance with unascended Astarion could also do with a lot more love. Ascended Astarion got 3 kiss animations with patch 6 and while I find them problematic because Tav seems so miserable, unascended Astarion could have done with a similar amount of attention.

No offence meant, but can we keep the "why ascension is good actually" discussion to the by now I think two or three threads dedicated to swooning over Ascended Astarion, please. All of which are incredibly toxic to any other interpretation besides the "dark romance" one.

Apart from that the epilogue addresses "hunger" in more general terms and I can't help but finding the "his friends will eventually leave him alone" argument extremely odd. Because that is just what happens. Don't you make friends with people unless you know they will outlive you or will never move away? Don't you form or cherish the bonds with your parents, grandparents or older colleagues because they will eventually leave you behind? Things aren't eternal but we can always cherish the memories made together.

I don't think the kisses are that important for the romance. They can be the cherry on top, but there are things I consider more important - the improved dialouge of the dock scene for example. If they reverted the old kiss back to its former glory (because I feel it has more close-ups now, but haven't compared it closely) and took the new one out completely, I wouldn't even mind because I am so incredibly sick of reading about Astarion's kisses by now.

@Anska If you thought I was saying ascension was really a 'good' path, you misunderstood my post.

Then I am sorry for misunderstanding you, the two points you mentioned are among the arguments, I find frequently used to advertise ascension as the "right" thing to do.

Now I have to bring up kisses myself because a random yt suggestion made me realise what is wrong with the new Spawn kiss, it was made with larger PCs /Karlach in mind and then not properly modified for same sized or smaller PCs. So for any PC that isn't larger than Astarion, he has to do bend down low enough in order to kiss up, which looks unnatural and also makes his shoulder hide the kiss itself - especially when wearing armour and a cloak. With the larger model it looks perfectly fine.

Hi! Newbie here (I'm not sure how much should be spoiler-tagged, so I'm erring on the side of caution), and I hope I'm not rehashing things that are changed or settled, but I just finished my first playthrough and I have THE FEELS.

I chose Astarion Origin for my first playthrough (because I wanted to learn the game before I went through the trouble of making a build from scratch), and quickly decided he and Karlach belonged together. I had him remain a spawn, because I'd been playing him with a redemption arc in mind.
It really felt like a case of "no good deed goes unpunished."

I'm planning to start a Karlach Origin playthrough to cheer myself up. But I had to comment on this.

I can imagine that it's especially painful if you romanced Karlach. Let's see what the next patch brings. It would be nice if the Origins who leave the dock early could still have Wyll save Karlach, if the new spawn kiss got fixed for none-tall PCs (your hair is not that nice Astarion) and if the dialogue referring to Gale's yucky blood in Gale's Origin got ironed out. (Currently Astarion hates the stuff half of the time and thinks it's perfectly delicious otherwise - which is just weird.) That would be my personal Astarion wish-list for the patch.

I think it was mentioned, that this will get addressed with the next patch. If you have a save shortly before the dock scene, maybe you can then replay that part and have the reunion six month later with Karlach alive and still your girlfriend.

Doubt it will be changed, the whole point of playing Origin is RP. Thats why u have all different romances, can play civilized Laezel, evil Karlach or selfless Astarion etc. U are shaping your own experience as Origin, not replaying the same character arc thats presented in their companion stories. U are supposed to be fully aware of your condition and backstory, so then how do envision saving your partner if you dont fix your sunlight hypersensivity. Its up to the player what he's gonna do with the power after ascension, afaik in Origin there are no consort/spawn dialogues or cinematics. There are special dialogues however for Astarion Origin and romanced Karlach after ascension especially for RP. Making spawn a good ending in this scenario will render that part of the writing and RP moot. You have two tragic characters, for Karlach's engine theres no fix during the events of the game, Astarions' condition u can fix with Ascension, you can't expect to reach good ending with doomed romance while doing nothing to improve your characters' condition.

That makes no sense.

Karlach's dock scene does not depend on the player character, it depends on Wyll, the player character isn't even necessary for it. Wyll makes the offer to accompany Karlach and if you tell her to do what she wants, she goes with Wyll. However, if the player character is not present anymore, because they killed themselves, rode off to fight in the rebellion, have to hide behind a box - or before patch 5 talk to Mystra - Wyll does not make his offer and Karlach explodes. Allowing for Karlach and Wyll to have their Avernus ending would simply require them to make the same choices they autonomously make when the player acts as a silent observer to the scene. It would then, as Fylimar mentioned, be another of the endings in which the lovers (or friends) meet again after six months apart, of which there already are several.

I don't want to get into your dubious interpretation of improving Astarion or Karlach's condition - because you can of course "fix Karlach's engine" by turning her into a mind flayer.

Exactly. And I think, Astarions ending as spawn was mentioned as being polished and fixed in the patch notes.

They will go to Avernus provided the player chooses the dialogue, but there are people who might choose other. The point of the game is that the player is the driver behind the wheel of companions' fate for the whole story, reducing MC input to being silent observer simply goes against the theme and game design. To make Wyll follow Karlach automatically when MC is not there u would probably need edits to the cinematic and probably new voice lines to simulate the second phase, considering Larian announced Origin characters' stories as finished its doubtful it will happen.

Regarding the engine there's no way of knowing this without metagame knowledge, besides looks like the they wanted to have good ending so that knowledge would be useless anyway, while playing the game for the first time as Astarion origin the only possible fix telegraphed by the game is the ascension, in tragedy setting you need to take every chances possible can't count on luck.

You could also simply switch the control to Wyll, wouldn't be the first time the game does that.

As for the rest, using ascension to achieve sunlight protection in order to save Karlach, is equally metagaming because the ritual is not about fixing Astarion's sunlight problem, this is only ever portrayed as a nice bonus. And I am saying that as someone who's first ever run was with Astarion Origin. But I also know that for a lot of people the draw and sole point of the ritual is magical sunscreen, so there's no reason discussing this any further.

It's pointless for the situation mentioned here anyway, which also applies for Avatar-Lae'zel or someone leaving with romanced Lae'zel (including Avatar Spawn Astarion). It has nothing to do with tragedy and everything with the line up of the endgame cut scenes. Before patch 5, Avatar-Gale also couldn't save Karlach because his dock scene ended when he gazes over the Chiontar, pondering the crown. With patch 5 they slapped on the Karlach ending, giving him a crippled dock scene (the whole middle portion is still missing) in what seems like a quick fix. I hope that while adding evil endings, and adding new lines for Companion-Astarion's departure, the whole scene got a little polish.

And ascention for Astarion romancing Karlach if all companions would be pretty out of character, since she is the companion, that disapproves the most, I think.

Astarion romancing Karlach is out of character in the first place. If you're playing as Tav/DU he doesn't have a single line showing interest in her, in fact he's not impressed with her intellect at all when she hits on him.

Karlach leaves the party if you destroy the grove and kill ~30 tieflings but somehow is cool with staying in it when you send 7K souls to the Hells and also doesn't mind using soul coins. Hypocritical much?