Larian Studios Forums Baldur's Gate III Baldur's Gate III - Suggestions & Feedback Astarion romance improvements

To change the subject for a tiny moment - and yes I don't like the facial animations either even though I don't like the ascended path. I don't even think they fit the promotion material because our dear rizard has danger kink and thinks AA is hot ...

I have previously thought that Astarion's spawn romance works better for Gale than Gale's own romance arc does and I am more and more affirmed in the opinion that that the same holds true the other way around. It really for the most part boils down to player dialogue. With Gale you share mutual admiration. While there are pearl-clutching-paladin dialogue options, there usually is one that shows support for him, even when you disagree with his plans, and when you talk him out of the Crown, you can do it out of concern for him. You can be each other's none judgy biggest fans, swapping sincere sounding compliments and be supportive of each other in times of doubt. Like, well, like equal partners who adore each other and are each other's strength.

The PC for Companion Astarion is rarely allowed to be emotional, vulnerable or allowed to tell Astarion how incredibly marvellous he is, just the way he is. So you have Astarion's beautiful dialogue on one side and the wooden player dialogue on the other and that just doesn't work well to perfectly create this "together" feeling that I think the romance should have.

Zayir, you mentioned Dark Urge Diaries somewhere. She's improved the scene with the free camera tool. This is so much better! No ridiculous faces from Tav.

Ah, this is so much better. Can she not make a mod so I can implement this in my game, ha ha.

Thank you for posting this. I have seen all 3 kisses with a camera tool now, and what I can tell you about it: Tav clenches his fist in every kiss and is never touching Astarion. Except one time, where he wants to grab out for Astarion's arm,who is holding Tav's chin, maybe to stop him, it isn't clear ( in the karlach kiss).
Even in the bite kiss, where it seems Tav could enjoy it, he is not showing it in his body language. (While Astarion push him deeper, because of the bite, Tav refuses) So, I can confirm this is pure sadism without any kind of love (especially shown in Tav)

You can't just unleash such harsh sadism on the players after Kiss patch 5, but at the the same time censor all the sex scenes and make them fluffy - it doesn't go well, lol.

Seriously? This is just ridiculous. Who are they trying to punish here?

Yes, seriously. Tav's arms just hang down, his hands are clenched or he raises them to resist.
In my opinion it works well in the “kneel down scene”, that's totally fine there. But the other two? Tav does not love Astarion in this kissanimations. That's what body language tells me. And also his disgusted face, as mentioned before.

So I support to change Tav into enjoying the kisses, as he and the narrator confirms this in the romance scene, put an M to the S.

Now that I could finally log back into the forums.....someone posted Dark Urge Diaries New Kisses Free Cam video above this comment. I put my statements under that video if you all want to or care to read them because I will not retype them all over again. The "abusive" look to these kisses is coming from the devs treating Astarion as a "true vampire" master instead of the ascended one that was written & explained up until this patch (6) by parts of the Larian studio. Yet, the animations & a handful of devs (whoever decided this kisses route) have turned it into something quite different without explaining their reasons behind it. They are simply making the game a good vs evil only. There is no gray in the matter (which is the DnD aspect of it EXCEPT for 5e, but you can not ignore that vampires are written about in 2e). But if you know how vampires are and have the books to reference, this whole kiss animation is for a true vampire, not an ascended one as described. It also confirms that the entire Astarion story is written one way and another department sees him differently & does not explain that this is what their plan was. It is left out of the player's hands and takes away choice by the player with their judgment & that is not the reason I chose to play the game. If they wanted Astarion to act like a true vampire, then do not come up with the story of him getting back the appetites of man, the abilities of a spawn such as sex and so forth, if they are going to take all that away & not explain it and confuse their own story (and the rituals they intentionally used for this character). Even in the epilogue, he states he gives Tav power, wealth, and pleasure (well he can't do the last one if he is a true vampire). The story and animations do not match. But please read what I wrote under the video that is presented by Dark Urge Diaries on YT & you will see where I am coming from & how it is following a different path than the decision of the abusive kisses that came out of nowhere, in MY opinion. Thanks. Since the damn site is overloaded, I won't be responding to this probably for a day or two or ever, depending on how overwhelmed their site is during certain times of the day. To me, this is a cheap out Larian without proper communication. Not a good look. Thank you for your time.

The first day I didn't mind the new kissing animations with AAstarion but then, watching them several times and noticing the various details, I began to despise them.
Reading the comments of other users, I notice that we are quite unanimous in the reason that makes these animations unpleasant: the expression on the TAV's face.
The TAV is a personal thing: its characterization depends on the player's imagination. Making the face of the TAV scared and sad during kisses, in my opinion, is equivalent to a strong imposition on the part of the developers.
As many have already said, if in my imagination I decided that my TAV chose to help Astarion in his ascension and agreed to stay with him, it makes no sense that he would now appear scared.
I love the character of Astarion in his entirety and, as such, I appreciated and loved both versions of him. What intrigued me about AAstarion (but actually also about spawn Astarion and his future), was the possibility of giving the relationship with him various interpretations: you could create a tragic story of a subjugated TAV; or imagine a relationship between two evil souls.
In general I have always thought that the authors left the players the possibility of imagining their own story and their own ending (epilogue in which the character with whom we have a relationship asks what we want to do), but this freedom now looks as if it had been taken away .

This is very depressing. I really can't comprehend their agenda here as they are puposefully taking away player agency in these scenes. It's happened in other instances (like a wizard TAV being clumsy in Gale's magic lessons or anyone killing the brain thinking "alll was worth it, for this") but in this case it is quite violating as it shows both physical and psychological abuse to the pc without you being able to back away other than never choosing the kiss option again (but what has been seen....). And it becomes abuse through Tav's reaction as they are obviously not okay with it.

Even worse: Tav actually still has the chance to just refuse or tell him off - all still have their tadpoles, there's no compulsion possible. But Tav acts like a person who has been mentally and physically broken down over the course of a long time and has lost their will to defend themselves. Seriously, Larian, not okay.

I understand that they want to show that Astarion might get caught in a cycle of abuse now that he still has all his fears left and a lot of power to boot, but this is nothing that just happens over night. It would be a long process and they have been hinting enough in the story and the dialogues at the possibility that he might end up there in the future. Earlier with a Tav who regrets their choice and struggles, maybe never with a Tav who is happy with the choice.

How can they destroy their own narrative and the roleplay element of their game like this? Who thought this was a good idea?

One thing I find odd, is that Ascended Astarion flat out tells Tav he wants to kiss them with his blood on their lips - that he can’t wait. It feels like such an obvious thing to have worked into the new animations. Perhaps we should have gotten Tav biting Astarion’s lip and Astarion just becoming drunk with lust.

That’s how I have always viewed the Tav/Ascendant relationship. It’s presented as decadent, hedonistic, and opportunistic rather than gentle or loving. Again, I actually love the masochist and domineering side of the Ascendent. This is the man who salivates over watching you with the priest of Loviator, so it fits.

I’m just tired of being force fed the abuse/trapped narrative. It’s a valid interpretation but this is role play, it should not be the only story I get to tell, especially when the narrator flat out says “but perhaps you wish to degrade yourself and he knows it”.

OMG that's ghastly. It's just mind-boggling what they're doing.

Did they censor more sex scenes? Other than ascended romance scene as usual.


Very good post and I liked your detailed explanations under the video. I totally agree with you! It's contradictions over and over again. The "good" vs "evil" is not what an RPG should be like, otherwise it's just propaganda, where they show clear bias towards one side. I really want to have an epilogue to the evil ending, especially now that Astarion and Minthara are treated properly in it.


It's the same crap they pulled when making Tav only horny for Astarion's body or power or being a moralising paladin. Which yet again, is contradictory. Previously, they made Tav into a sex-crazed nympho who only ascended Astarion out of horniness for him, but now they make them not enjoy the kisses. So are they sex-crazed or not? It's all so ridiculous, words fail me.


I like that idea!


Yes, they take away our roleplay options because someone at Larian has a boner for the abuser theme. This is the only evil male romance in the game. I don't want to it be ruined for some hamfisted morality lessons. Let's also not forget about the state of the Minthara romance. It's a bloody video game, where you should be able to play the way you want.


On another note, his new spawn kiss is not the best either. The angle is bad and was the first thing that struck me in it. I hope they change it to this one:

https://www.youtube.com/shorts/qarJC1MtFss

Strangely, Astarion doesn't seem so dismissive here either. There's no sense of him despising Tav, which I had when going through the scenes in the game. That was basically the worst part of those scenes for me - his contempt. Was it just Tav's face that changed? Or just the overall perception changed because of it? It looks completely different in this version.


It feels like it's us, the players. As if Astarion's beautiful story suddenly fell into the hands of the author of cheap women's magazines that teach "how to build healthy relationships". And how it is impossible to love a "bad guy", it is necessary to "correct" him, "break his fangs", in no case dare to love a man as he is, do not dare to help him, do not dare to put his happiness and the happiness of your couple above someone's ideas of "goodness and self-sacrifice". You won't like pure sadism. Even those who like it will be clearly shown that NO, Tav suffers and fears - they said, don't like it, then don't like it. Everyone listen to the "smart uncles" and urgently start breaking and "fixing" Astarion! At the same time, the developers don't have to fix the "burning ending" of Spawn, let's just scare everyone with how bad the Ascended Astarion is. As if in answer to the question: "Why is your 'good way' so bad, and the 'evil' way so beautiful and wonderful?".


It completely breaks the story of Astarion and Tav. I also got the feeling when replaying these scenes that:

1) This is NOT Astarion. Astarion would never be sadistic towards Tav. It's a cheap image created to justify Tav's manipulative line of talking Astarion out of the ritual. Saying that if you don't tell him, "Don't be like Cazador," he'll instantly turn into Cazador. Might work for the "unsophisticated player" who doesn't know much about the plot and Astarion's character.

2) This also skews the story of Astarion and Tav as a couple. It looks as if some Vampire Lord picked up Tav somewhere in a dumpster, made them spawn and is having fun. And Tav's body language is totally appropriate in that case. But that's not the case. If another department did it, did they even read the actual script?

There is also information about the Ascension ritual in the lore of DnD. Ascension does not change a person's personality or character in any way. A true vampire is one who was raised that way, usually by the one who turned him (like Veliot made Cazador a true vampire). Vampirism itself doesn't change personality, and the Ascension ritual doesn't change personality, it's the conditions and environment that change personality. All that changed for Astarion was that he became truly free, he became empowered. But where could he possibly have contempt for Tav? There's no explanation for that. Just as there is no explanation for why Tav suddenly dislikes and fears Astarion out of the blue. The same Tav who (in my case) went through the scene with Abdirak through Intimidation to show off in front of Astarion and not show herself weak in front of him after their first night.

Only the angles are different. Amazing how it changes the mood, doesn't it?

By the way, there is no better motivator for evil than persistent propaganda of "good". Propaganda itself causes such disgust that a person automatically has the desire to do something to spite what they try to shove into him.


This one!


Let's just say I'll never play BG3 without having a romance with Astarion. And I will never deny him Ascension. Yes, my Tav can go to great lengths for Astarion and against the "good" that is supposed to "break" Astarion. But the question is, why should a player go to war with the game for the opportunity to do what he wants to do? In a good RPG, one should confront those in-game obstacles and challenges that arise from the game's story, as part of the roleplay, not go to war with the scenario itself.

Yeah, I look at it and it makes me feel better. If someone makes a mod that changes what is in the game to what we see in this video and saves Tav from Astarion's disdain and Astarion from Tav's dislike, that would be great! I'll be able to play the game with pleasure. All hope for that.

I just feel like there is some upsetting bait and switch going on with Astarion’s character. The early acts give you the strong impression that he has a domination kink, which I frankly thought was cool to see represented in a video game romance. The problem is, if you don’t ascend Astarion he becomes completely fluffy and sweet with no indication he ever had a kinky bone in his body; which is also inconsistent, in its own way. Now, though, if you do choose ascension the relationship just feels non consensual now. Which again, is not what they tease before that point.

I have always felt like you’re making a devil’s bargain when you kneel. In exchange for freedom you choose a life of sin, luxury, decadence and pleasure. You can’t leave, and you’re not an equal partner, but that’s a price you can pay.

As far as Astarion. Even Ascended, it felt like he needed Tav. Except that’s weakness. So he exerts control in order to maintain his self image and prove that he has power even over his own emotions. The only way for him to feel safe in a relationship on this path is to dominate it.

That's exactly what I've been feeling lately when I play.
I had recently started a new good playthrough where I wasn't going to ascend Astarion, but as I played, I felt weird, like the choices I was making were forced. My head is so full of other people's opinions and those of the developers, that I can no longer imagine the personality of my TAV: I can't create its own story following that of the game. I feel like I'm deprived of my imagination because if I think differently, then it's not good, I'm wrong... and maybe I even need to be punished.
All this made me lose the desire to play and these new kisses with AAstarion were the straw that broke the camel's back. If their intention was to make the players feel sick, they succeeded with me.
I completely lost the will to play, even with spawn Astarion.
The imposition is obvious... I would like not to think that the developers want to punish the players in some way, but I can't help but think so.

We shouldn't have to, simple as that.


It's something I've complained about too. You don't just drop your sexual likes because you make one heroic decision. All of it makes no sense. He behaves like he's repressing himself and he'll feel miserable in the relationship if he cannot even express his sexuality.


I feel the same about it. Then again the loss of freedom is only on paper if Tav actually truly loves Astarion and intends to stay with him.


In a banter with Lae'zel he admits he needed someone he could trust. He also heavily hints that he turned Tav because he was scared of being betrayed and left by them.

The ‘thank you for trusting me’ line you get the morning after being turned always felt sincere to me, as opposed to one of his sweet nothings. That whole conversation reads as him finally breathing a bit easier and getting to revel in his evil plans with faith that Tav wants to share in them fully.

I also found it jarring that you can tell Jaheira in the epilogue that Ascended Astarion is the love of your life (and it’s not flagged as deception) but you can’t tell him that. Mind you, Jaheira will also tease you about having children in the same conversation without seeming to realize that two undead are probably not going to procreate.

[/quote]In a banter with Lae'zel he admits he needed someone he could trust. He also heavily hints that he turned Tav because he was scared of being betrayed and left by them.[/quote]

There is also a banter between Astarion and Minthara where he says that he wants to share immortality only with the person that he loves:

Minthata: "Would you ever consider sharing the gift of immortality with me, Astarion?"

Astarion: (chuckle)"I think not. Thats for me and my darling to share"

Minthara: "If they have kept your eyes and fangs from wandering to other necks, it must be a very special bond indeed"

This is another proof that the authors are contradicting themselves.