Larian Studios Forums Baldur's Gate III Baldur's Gate III - Suggestions & Feedback Astarion romance improvements

This is exactly how I feel after the patch, I don't feel like playing this game anymore or at least to romance Astarion again, I used to not be able to stay away from him even if I started a playthrough with the intent of romancing another character but I always ended up with Astarion lol, now the writers made sure to make me see him in another light weird as that sounds for a video game character but honestly we do get attached to these characters and that's the whole point I think, we get invested.

You guys just don't know what an RPG video game is.

What is it?

And you have nothing better to do than going to Astarion threads for the sole purpose of being a contrarian and starting the same pointless argument about what an RPG means and how everyone else is ignorant.

Cambridge dictionary: "abbreviation for role-playing game: a computer game in which players control the actions of characters in an imaginary world."

I controlled my character and played as someone who wanted to do be with Astarion, and was not scared of him but now the game forces the narration that my character IS scared. They removed my control of the character.

I don't disagree with the notion that RPGs should be allowed to portray both good and evil routes and have them have consequences, in fact, I enthusiastically agree (too much freedom ends up seriously trivialising a story, and RPGs usually tell those as well, it's not just a gratification simulator where every single choice is rewarded equally, that makes choices ironically meaningless. I recommend reading Larian's Adam Smith's take on it, it's very interesting because they want the routes to mean something).

HOWEVER... tackling the issue that's being discussed here: it's true that Tav's expressions during the kiss are removing the option for players to imagine how their Tav would react, which is also one of the charms of RPGs. It's early into that relationship, maybe they're into it, maybe they're just a bit nuts (lots of Durges playing that route) , but most importantly: this is a Tav that has gone through the kneeling scene and accepted it (which has similar elements) and is then asking for a kiss, perhaps several. A Tav in that situation could be scared, sure, perhaps it takes them by surprise, but I think usually they'd know what's going to happen.

I think what BG3 should do (well, in my opinion, it has done it since full release, but not everyone sees it that way) is to give you the tools to explore and reflect on that story and how that relationship would develop, not automatically assign the player character those emotions under circumstances that don't make a lot of sense. I don't think the sentiment is wrong, per se: Tav or at least the vast majority of Tavs would eventually realise that this wasn't a good bargain that they got themselves into, but this was handled clumsily. Also, I already said this in another thread, but sending out the message that this kind of relationship is harmful, while valid, doesn't mesh well with the fact that the kisses are set up as clear fanservice that's meant to be sexy. They should pick one or the other.

In Larian's defense, player character expressions are tricky. There were a few instances where my character made a face or a throwaway comment where I was like "He would not say that". I think sometimes you also have to ignore that and think "well, that wasn't canon". There's a lot of debate about whether or not PCs should be voiceless or voiced, so I guess it's up to the individual's preferences. If we want total and complete control over imagining what our Tav feels like, they'd have to have a constant serious face. I think a lot of the goofy animations where Tav's like crossing their arms are precisely the most default animations they could make. Truth is, we will never have full control over how the game itself depicts our character, we can never choose EXACTLY what our PC would say to people, and the kiss animations for basically every single companion are already assuming things: maybe my Tav wouldn't kiss Karlach like that, etc. So I understand that some limits have to be added, but Tav's face here had too much of a bias that I find at the very least preventable. I don't know if there was a good/perfect solution, but this one doesn't seem particularly coherent. I think some amount of railroading to better convey a story or its point is good, but there's a line that can be crossed where it takes you a bit out, or is perhaps a bit blunt/unsubtle.

If you look at other RPG video games (those nominated alongside BG3 for different awards or just the most famous examples), the games force a ton of emotions on the protagonist. BG3 is also a self-contained story written by Larian, it's not a tabletop RPG with real-time reactions from a GM or a dating sim, which prioritizes the player's emotional state.

You can imagine that your character would enjoy that, but BG3 was written and animated by Larian. If they imagine the Astarion - Tav (or Tav - any other companion) romance a certain way and it does not align with your personal preferences, though luck. It's not a failing on Larian's part. It's not even outside of what other RPG video games do.

It's like when you play as Dark Urge. During the scenes and the dialogues to your character is given the opportunity to react differently based on how you imagine your TAV is: you can make him smile and get excited at the idea of killing or torturing; have a neutral reaction because you are curious; or reject the dark impulses completely out of disgust.
Playing as Dark Urge I find it more disturbing than AAstarion, yet there you are given the opportunity to react as you like and there is nothing that forces you to be a good Dark Urge... perhaps just the indignant comments of your companions.
So, again, I don't understand why with AAstarion the TAV can't have the same broad possibility of responses and reactions, but you have to play only like a victim.

Durge is also made to feel bad about Alfira in the epilogue. They could have instead narrated the story about you remembering her and then having options to select how you feel about it, but instead the narrator decides you're remorseful. How about a scenario where you saw yourself as a victim of the urges and didn't care for others and you only wanted to be rid of Bhaal's influence so you could be in control of yourself and dominate and murder enemies together with AA, which you can even choose in the dialogue options with him? Another contradiction.

I don't know where you got that I'm disagreeing with the story BG3 is trying to tell or that it doesn't align with my personal preference, I think I have very clearly stated I agree with their message and that I see why they're doing what they're doing and their respective limits that they have to work with as a story-driven RPG.
That being said... other RPGs are constantly criticised for railroading the player's choices and emotions, this isn't new. See Fallout, Mass Effect, Dragon Age Inquisition...
Larian's being rightfully praised for the amount of freedom players usually have, it's usually very well accomplished, but this was an Eh decision by contrast. I think the story/relationship dynamic they were trying to portray already came across pretty clearly without this. They want to tell a story, but they also want players to explore it freely themselves and unravel the message how they wish to, that's also clearly been Larian's philosophy.
I agree that there's a trend I see amongst some players where they're looking for/imagining a story that isn't there and feeling disappointed when they find out that it's indeed not the story the game's trying to tell, and they think that's a failing on the writers' part instead of a feature that they just refused to fully engage with because they imagined something else. Basically, going to a Mexican restaurant and complaining about the lack of Sushi that you expected there to be. But I still think this specific circumstance is a bit incoherent for that context.

You can literally tell Astarion you're not scared of him but then you're forced to act like you are after a single patch. You can also rule with him now and you are clearly in charge, not him - you are a power couple in that scenario, not a scared little girl/boy who can't handle their partner's intensity.

Hm, I'd also say that even if you interpret the relationship between the PC and AA in the darkest way possible, he was previously still trying hold up the pretence of a romantic relationship, so that the sinister implications were more between the lines than on the cover. That nuance got lost in the new kiss animations. Especially considering that they are all public.

On the topic of forcing emotions on to the player character, the reverse can also be problematic. In the case of Spawn Astarion I think much of the issues stem from the PC being as emotional as a lonely brick on a cold winter day.

Some people in the fandom as well.

It doesn't scare me if he's shown in a different light. Approval in the path of evil is handled. But if so cheap, thoughtless and deciding for the player doing b&w, yeah scary.

I don't fear Astarion's evil, that's literally what Tav can say after the ritual and Astarion respects and appreciates that, he likes that Tav isn't afraid. Tav trusts him.
Most are offended by Tav's face. (even more who decided that making Tav's face like that was a good idea).
Is this a dictation or a role play? Tav doesn't get kidnapped - that's the only time the victim-virtuous scared dynamic works.
My Tav agrees several times and is not afraid. That's kind of the reason why I'm choosing Astarion.

Cheap in terms of story - fact that these things are not revealed so that the player can neatly understand and accept them in Astarion's character before the ritual.
And people who choose "My Treasure" "Ask for anything you want and it will be yours" is a different dynamic, than pokes a (terrified) Tav face. And such an audience needs soft kisses too, very VERY much so.
It's obsession-love, hyper-caring, protective.
Unless the treasure says "I trust you, do as wild as you want, I want it" - If that's the case, of course.

Those to whom this is:
- not into AA, (fun AU, f8)
- love dynamics victim-virtuous, understandably, but this is the lame line about it below.
- the animation of the kiss itself is good - all of Tav's animation is not
or never like AA at all.

Why the moral-face-Tav - look how bad, it's going to be bad is knocking on my door in Act 3 in the Ascended Finale when the romance with Astarion matches the color of his eyes from the beginning. However, the tenderness and understanding between the "kindred evil spirit" is shown.

Perhaps someone at Larian likes to: "The Great Trickster Plan is successful ", power and good Tav are mine. *big Astarion laugh* Golden Cage. It's a fun story, I'll admit. But no! That man, when good Tav bares their weapons to protect the girl from the snake in Act 1 - he says "Let's have fun", "We can kill them all" - virtue Tav won't give everything to Astarion for so many reasons.
Such a one for a romance with Lord Astarion just bursts like a bubble.
I don't know what chance the evil Tav won't realize that this man won't play by any moral rules, anywhere. The law will be: Astarion.
Not to mention Astarion would sulk 24\7 and try to please Tav to make her happy with him, not to push her while she's on her knees with a sad face, lol. Astarion's brain isn't that smooth.
This is literally a vampire prince who will throw a tantrum and slam the door when Tav wants freedom and doesn't like new dresses and jewelry. "If she doesn't eat with me, then she doesn't eat at all!" But the distinction: the asshole won't let go anyway. Not a fairy tale prince, vampire.

Why is Tav's face like Angst Tav and Astarion's behavior like with Tav, who is as wild as him and wants him as much as he does…
It's a mistake.

Angst Tav is most illogical line that is literally made to explore the darkest side of the novel. Such a Tav will not come up for a kiss, and if does, with angst Tav - Astarion will be careful. He wants Tav to enjoy the hedonistic, decadence life with him, to have fun.
But Tav already agreed, understood, and chose vice and evil, Lord Astarion, for so many reasons - that's why it's angst illogical for most AA target audience.

Angst Tav line makes almost no sense, I hope it's clear why, but the most scandalous and screaming.

The narrative line of a vicious evil couple obsessed with care, love for each other and have fun is the most logical for the romance.
What a good dark romance with an evil man is I know.

Facts, we have three BG3s: 1 – EA, 2 – Release, 3 - After all the patches.

Whether BG3 will be able to write a proper Dark Romance with Ascended Astarion with a uniquely evil man in the game - so that it's good, nice (just evil) and enjoyable rather than u a ate heart pill - is an open question.

Trust is very important to him, true. He finally stops worrying that Tav is not serious about him.

I heard that such an option exists but in my game I can only tell her that my home is with Astarion and the conversation finishes after a few of her lines. The procreation may be possible, considering he's a living vampire and he shares his power with Tav (which is also mentioned in the epilogue) so Tav might also be warm and have a heartbeat, if they're able to walk in the sun like he does.

Since Durge was mentioned earlier:



This honestly made me laugh. Hilarious combination after the whole "rawr I'm the future master of the world" and Astarion is like "you still answer to me, darling, hahaha". This just shows that roleplaying as an evil power couple that enjoys power play is a perfectly valid way to go through the story, especially now that irredeemable Durge/AA have a happy ending. The scared faces have to go away.


I'm seeing more and more variants of the new Spawn kiss so I'm not alone in thinking the angle is bad. Another one that's much better:

Honestly, that's where I'm at, too. Fix the scared faces, and everything is excellent. I have zero complaints beyond that. I actually liked the new animations a lot at first, before I noticed just how weird Tav looked. I'm also not even certain the scared faces were a deliberate choice, rather than an oversight/botched attempt at making a neutral expression.

Yes, Ascended Astarion believes that relationships are a form of control ('sex, relationships, violence, they're all just different forms of control'), but that just begs the question of why he wants to control Tav specifically. The answer I always land on is that he can't bear to lose someone so precious to him, so he uses his power to ensure it can't happen. It's love expressed as toxic obsession, which is all he knows how to do at this point. The domination, in addition to being a kink he always had, also reads as someone who now feels in control of his bodily autonomy and decides exactly how much Tav can have at any given time (he starts and ends all of the kisses, on his terms). The pushes away read to me as him reinforcing the power dynamic he wants ("You get what I decide to give you, and I'll give you just enough to keep you wishing for more") and a false bravado ("See, I don't need you. So don't ever think you can take advantage of me.) He's a paranoid, power hungry, scheming beast (to use his own words about vampires) but I think he still fears being alone/rejected and wants Tav with a kind of mad desperation.

My personal favourite way to roleplay them is as power mad King and devoted consort, who to use the Dark Urge line wants nothing more than to sit on his lap, drinking blood from a goblet, while they rule based on their own murderous, debauched whims.

It's the exact same kiss as ascended Astarion's "bite kiss", just in Spawn style with Tav touching/embracing Astarion
Also the ascended kiss would be better from that angle.

If they fix the scared facial expressions I'll be happier that's for sure. As it is they make no sense, my Tav knew what she was getting with A Astarion she's not witless or stupid and she isn't scared of him.
I believe however that by using these facial animations they have massively changed the perceived dynamic between 2 people - and they have done it half a year after release.
This seems massively disrespectful to their fan base, if they change them to something else or change the camera angles I will be much more accepting.

Same. I wouldn't mind if Tav touched Astarion too, though.


That's not what my Tav's relationship started as but certainly ended up being.


Ha! You're right, it is!
They could show the ascended kiss from the different angle after the bite.


Agreed.

Nope. Never. I am very sure, this was done deliberately, as Tav's facial expressions fits completely his body language, Tav is trying to reject Astarion, has clenched fists, he just do, what he has to do, like a soulless human-being, a victim of a cruel sadist. You cannot see any love or real enjoyment in Tav.
He even has an expressionless doll face at the beginning of the bite kiss! It's like this: "You can feel the fear (...), but you force yourself to keep smiling. As you so often did before."

Only people with a dangerous sadistic personality disorder are not bothered by Tav's portrayal, or people who have no empathy or those, who cannot read facial expressions/body language. So, thank you, Larian, to implement kisses for Valentine's day, which show a Tav who suffers and feels no love anymore. Instead of a good, consensual, enjoyable SM, as the animations could have instead been made for. Good Work! (I put this disapprovegauntlet here, in case someone can't sense irony)

I created an account because I've just seen the new animations and I really felt the need to say my opinion. (I'll use feminine pronouns because that's what my characters are, I don't mean to exclude anyone)

So, first, AAstarion's new animations are really interesting, and they would be absolutely mindblowing, IF MY TAV/DURGE WAS INTO IT.

Now I see my strong, powerful TAV suddenly cowering before her boyfriend? Why, all of a sudden, would this relationship become nonconsensual?

Let's see how we reached this point:

You meet this morally questionable vampire, who makes it known that he's bloodthirsty and power hungry. You decide you want to romance him, and not someone like honorable, super sweet Wyll. Romance starts, with a lot of moments where you could have said, nope, I don't like where this is going. Yet you stay.
Finally, the ascension. You know, the part where you thought that 7000 souls were a fair price for your love interest to feel better. Ok, here the darker part comes. Astarion asks you to be his spawn, and you can say no. Then there's the kneeling part, and there's another clear way out if you don't feel good about the vibe. Then, the insight roll, and let's be honest, we all saw what it says. With THAT in mind, you still thing that proceeding is a good idea, possibly even wanting to make the bite hurt. Morning after, again we all know what gets said. And the chance of breaking up is still there, for you to choose if you're having buyer's regrets. A good moment would be when he tells you you're going to be wonderfully obedient. If your reaction is "ew, no!" instead of "aw, yes!" you can break up.

Present condition, from both a gameplay and roleplay pow:
You're a lev 12 powerful being. Possibly even a Chosen of Bhaal. There's a lot of allies around, who really like you. You've just killed a powerful vampire, so the idea that a spawn can kill their own creator is fresh in your mind. The option to break up is always there. (You can even go back a save and let Cazador sacrifice Astarion, if you feel especially spiteful). Nobody is asking you to do anything. YOU decide to ask Astarion for a kiss. Not the other way around. He doesn't chase you to pressure you into doing things you don't want to.

You'd think, at this point, that whatever happens is fully consensual and exactly what you wanted, regardless of it not being an indication of a sane relationship in real life. We're not in real life. The amount of killings that are even during a "good" run (hello, goblin children, does that ring a bell?) should make it clear that it's a fantasy. And, good chances are you've gotten there leaving a trail of blood from the Emerald Grove to Baldur's Gate.

So HERE is were we draw the line? At some kinky smooch? NOW is where my Tav or DARK URGE has a(nother) severe case of amnesia and acts like she's some delicate flower, freshly kidnapped by a vampire and forced into servitude? Why doesn't she look happy and eager? Is she, now a vampire spawn, repulsed by a kiss with fangs? If anything, she should smile and bite back. Even if we want to think that, after the brain gets defeated or subjugated, the relationship will change, it's all hypothetical and in the future. And it's the kind of ending that I'd expect in a angsty fanfiction, not as an official fact.

And while we're at it. Astarion, freshly ascended, obviously adoring you in his own twisted way, is totally fine with everything. He can't read body language anymore. He's suddenly overwhelmed by the need to mistreat his spawn. He's the same guy who, before the patch (I haven't noticed if it still happens) said "Ask me anything, and it will be yours". The guy who, if you break up, doesn't lay a hand on you, and actually sounds heartbroken. That guy. Do I see him being a bit domineering? Sure. Doing the stuff he does in the new animations? Yes. Doing them to a Tav/Durge that looks THAT uncomfortable? No. Please change those facial expression and make the player charachter actually enjoy what's happening.