Larian Studios Forums Baldur's Gate III Baldur's Gate III - Story & Character Discussion Justice for Minthara

This, this so many times, it's almost giving me the impression that the actual people behind the work of her has moved on to their next project and different set of hands are trying to work on the game regardless how talented..
Surely hope I am wrong on this, would it be possible to see her break down like this even if the core developers responsible for her creation being involved with all the changes done to the game, thoughts, anyone?


It is starting to feel painful to see Emma Gregory's work getting lost in the pool of bugs and vermin pulling them apart limb by limb, praise to absolute that she will get properly fixed before this game hits the "golden" standard of not needing updating anymore because I will keep on sending bug reports by tickets till she does get inspected and combed clean to full functionality, Lolith have mercy if not.

We've been waiting for so so long. Like pretty much since October of 2020. I guarantee that if there were heuristics on this one, Minthara has probably been the most knocked out NPC of all time. I mean she is now the dictionary definition of a knockout.

The Minthara fans are hardcore and the most patient. Everyone else shows up at the elfsong tavern with hugs and kisses raising a toast, and we roll in like 'don't worry, we're ok, we just got hit by another truck. It's totally cool...'

How many times must she smite the Emperor and save all of Faerun to get that extra Origin slot in the UI that's so obviously meant for her? I thought resisting the Durge was potentially the most satisfying, but I can't get no satisfaction? Legit, what does it take to see Minthara up on the banner art and the box cover?

She deserves her own separate questline in Rivington and the Lower City that's just all about her.

I want to see her run game on the whole Upper City and come correct with like 6 dyes in her inventory - all black & black, when we get there, if we ever get there!

She should have like 6 nights out on the town, just to make up for every patch where she got left in the lurch.

One thing that I found disappointing is that she will not travel to the Underdark. When she is recruited at Moonrise Towers, she is on a quest of vengeance and will not travel back from the Shadowlands, which makes a bit of sense for a reason...but if there is one environment ripe for content where Minthara's character can shine, it is the Underdark!

Well after her being broken again I'm done sitting in the corner like a good little boy and being grateful for mere breadcrumbs while every other companion is getting full course meals for years now.

Larian has displayed terrible utter negligence towards Minthara and by doing so proved they don't care about her whatsoever, while parading that f***boy Astarion around as if the whole world is centered around him. Time and time again they made it impossible to enjoy Minthara, because like an utter k'chakhi the only thing I get to hope for Minthara are pitiful BREADCRUMBS that merely ENABLE ME TO ENJOY HER BUGGY CONTENT, instead of actually looking forward towards meaningful unique content that would solidify her as a character and make her story cohesive.

I've been here pointing out Minthara's shortcomings and Larian's terrible mishandling of the character for almost two years now, the reason why Emma Gregory has been entirely unnoticed for so long now and why she barely has any interviews about Minthara due to constant mistreatment of the character that's legitimately making it impossible for players to enjoy her.

• First they entirely lock her behind a bulltsk'va exclusivity choice for the pitiful idea of having an "evil" playthrough that doesn't even exist to begin with.
• By doing so they alienated her from about 70% of the playerbase by deleting content related to over 60 NPCs along with Shadowheart's romance and companions like Halsin, Wyll and Karlach as well as potentially Gale and HERSELF TOO!
• This terrible imbalance of content based around a single dumb choice made enjoying her as a character incredibly difficult due to ACT 2 and ACT 3 being horrifyingly devoid of any meaningful content.
• And even if the player obtains her with all the devoid content she's still broken as tsk'va because half her content is unavailable due to bugs.

In the last two years without counting the epilogue; what has Minthara gotten in terms of unique content that improves and solidifies her as a companion? NOTHING! She got a barely functional optional recruitment that merely enables her in a good playthrough and look how many players immediately became interested in her with absolute minimum effort, despite how broken she is! Been saying this for a long time. Meanwhile what did Shadowheart get this update, the main character of the game with the most fleshed out story, romance and whole two acts entirely dedicated to her? She got new unique interactions for her camp stool.


HER CAMP STOOL!

Minthara is broken as utter tsk'va and Shadowheart gets unique interactions for her stool in the camp.

How many threads are there about Minthara currently active on these forums? Just this one. How many bug reports about Minthara are currently there? Just mine (with zero comments). How many threads are active about Astarion, Halsin and other companions? Just look at them, every day 30 comments pop up in every single one. If this tsk'va happened to Astarion, we'd have 3000000000000000 threads about it by now. But Minthara? One thread, one bug report, barely any comments.

I love all companions equally and it's fantastic that Larian is improving all companions (with the exception of Minthara for whatever reason)... but precisely because of this horrible utter negligence by Larian I'm forced to exclusively focus on just Minthara like a k'chakhi fanboy that's starving for any Minthara related breadcrumbs in the patch notes, because unlike all the other companions that actually have their full content available and working, Minthara is just broken PERIOD to the point her players can't even get to enjoy the very little remaining content she has.

• Update #5 - Minthara can be knocked out now in ACT 1 (without mentioning extremely specific steps required which I had to personally test and spread the word because Larian didn't implement it properly)
• Update #6 - Fixed the recruitment so she can now get knocked out without the special steps required.

Meanwhile does she get any actual content that solidifies her as a character or adds to it? Nah... broke her again so that she now drops ACT 3 spoilers and makes players avoid her even more.... LULZ! SUCKS TO BE YOU!

What about her other issues?

• Her judgement scene in Moonrise still not having any failsafe if the player never met her or joined her in ACT 1, making the main character act as if they know each other.
• Or her not having a camp tent of her own, instead having to share it with Halsin like a homeless dog kicked in the rain by the side of the road.
• Or her romantic evening not triggering any romance related scene when she officially becomes a romantic interest in ACT 2 after saying "tonight there are no gods, I belong only to you!".
• Or her romance not having any relationship dialogue that allows the player to ask how she feels or to even break up with her.
• Or her greetings not becoming more romantic after becoming a love interest, just acting like a robotic consultant instead.
• Or her Dark Urge dialogue becoming unavailable for whatever reason, making it impossible for Dark Urge to talk about their urges with her.
• Or her not having anything to say about Dark Urge either getting eternally damned or free after getting rid of Orin.
• Or her not having any camp decorations in Elfsong Tavern while every other companion does.
• Or her not having a body, arms or feet in the leveling menu if she's not wearing all equipment slots.

*Sorry for the rant*

You actually can whether its an intended side effect or not is the question, this involves casting a silence spell on Miinthara before you go back to Underdark as long as you won't enter the Sharran mausoleum in Act 2, that is the start of no-return point to Underdark.

But it would be actually neat of course if there were some clear and purposeful designs for her and Underdark in some unique way, typically a missed opportunity.

I also forgot to mention above that she can't be broken up with once she's officially a love interest because she's the only companion that doesn't have any relationship dialogue. Can't ask her how she feels or anything of the sorts.

My theory is that there is something big coming for Minthara, she has been a popular demand since the start. Way more than Halsin in EA, the reason why she always seems to be limping along is probably because it would be a waste of resources to fix the same thing twice.

I really hope so. I was forced to put my Minthara playthrough on hold because the latest patch broke her so bad, it's really frustrating. I really like her writing and dialogue which make her feel like a lot more than just a "fanservice addition". She's more integrated into the main story than most of the origin companions. She really deserves to be more fleshed out and fixed!

I truly do not wish to be negative, but I highly doubt anything is coming for her (other than the potential datamined Halsin dialogue where he'll scamper off)... and that's coming from someone who has been incredibly hopeful and positive for two years now that Minthara will become solidified and fleshed out as a companion, even after hearing how "Larian is happy with the state she is in now" (meaning entirely broken and barely reactive as a companion state).

That's why I mentioned Shadowheart's stool above; because someone like her who is the most fleshed out companion even during Early Access, received new fully-voiced unique content for a background piece of her camp decoration. A piece of camp decoration gets new fully voiced content...

Broken Minthara on the other hand; zero new content additions, zero optimizations to her barely-holding-together content, zero added failsafes for her Moonrise scene or her romance and barely any fixes. Instead she only got more broken to the point her content is once again inaccessible due to bugs and issues. Did she get any new fully voiced unique content for her knockout recruitment or her legitimate recruitment by ignoring the Grove? Of course not.

And naturally they'll force Halsin to leave because that's just how Larian deals with Minthara, making it incredibly difficult to like her by cutting off more content;

• Shadowheart and Lae'zel? Can't stand one another, argue all the time, threaten each other and even almost kill each other... become best friends.
• Karlach and Wyll? Wants to murder her, but they become immediate buddies after a single talk and become oathsworn to each other by the end.
• Halsin and Minthara (a mindcontrolled victim of the Absolute)? DEAAAAAAAATH! CHOOSE ONE OR THE OTHER, CAN'T HAVE BOTH!

This blatant favoritism of everyone but Minthara is once again an occurring phenomenon just like it was during Early Access. Halsin's entire side became a massive elaborate story full of characters and intricate details... while Minthara's side is a pitifully put together desolate content with absolutely no other characters, full of holes and contradictions that got entirely ignored and left to gather dust as it merely plays along the established heroic paths, because Larian is very clear that in their games there are no evil story choices that lead down different paths; there are just heroic actions for which you'll get punished with removed content if you don't follow them to the letter.

We are 7 months in now, 5 months away from a year since release;

• Minthara received absolutely zero new and unique content since release (epilogue content does not count nor do her idle camp animations)
• She received zero optimizations and zero failsafes for her existing content. Shadowheart has x5 failsafes in place when it comes to being recruited, Lae'zel has x3, Wyll has x2, Karlach has x2, Astarion has x1.5, Halsin has x3, Jaheira has x3... Minthara? None, the avatar acts as if they know and joined each other even if they never met in ACT 1.
• The barely put together optional recruitment is a minimal step in the right direction that's realistically just a minimum effort enabler of her content in a good playthrough that doesn't add nor change anything. Couldn't have made a meaningful cutscene where she retreats instead? Couldn't have added a line or two so she references this in ACT II or at least reacts somehow to it?
• If the player even obtains her via the optional recruitment, they'll never get her romance scene. Couldn't have made it so that the player gets the romance scene if they never romanced her in ACT 1? Every other companion has a failsafe for their romance, Minthara is the only one who doesn't. Murder the Grove or no hanky panky for you.
• And so on...

I've personally stopped hoping Larian will magically divert their attention to her and realize what she needs added, what she needs fixing and what she needs improving. Instead I am now just collecting data and footage of everything that's wrong with her, which I will soon post as my own detailed thread fully visualized with exact things that need to be done for her and keep pushing it into their face until she is acknowledged and fixed.

Unfortunately being an annoying and extremely vocal minority is how things get done around here. I don't want to be an unpleasant pest, but apparently if that is what it takes... then so be it.

Too bad, I was hoping they'd fix Minthara and add more romantic content for another playthrough, but it seems she's still broken and lacking content. All my sympathy to Minthara fans; I hope Larian someday deigns to do her justice and sets aside their absurd favoritism for other characters, and starts focusing on those that lack content. Looks like I'll have to postpone my run until the next patch. PS: Personally, I don't see a problem with implementing the ultimatum dialogue. Obviously, most people will choose Minthara over Halsin; maybe then Larian will realize how beloved Minthara is within the community and start giving her the attention she deserves.

Here's one of the 13 issues so far on my list plaguing Minthara that I'll be covering;

• As well all know when Minthara officially becomes a love interest in ACT II she says "...tonight I belong only to you.", but naturally nothing happens that night... or any other night for that matter. Doesn't matter whether the player romanced her in ACT I or not, they don't get any romance scene at all. So why not have a short, sweet and simple fade-to-black romance scene if the player already romanced her in ACT I (if they didn't then naturally it'd be her full romance scene from ACT I).

Because I'm not one to just talk, here's a visual presentation too. Nothing groundbreaking, but at least it's something instead of nothing;

While i agree and would love to see something to happen after Minthara saying the famous "...tonight I belong only to you." line, at same time would also hate to see some crappy repurposed work soiling her down, the lovescene in Act 1 is so perfectly well done from an artistic point of view and goes hand in hand well with the synonym of evil, feasting on killing innocents to feasting on one another.

So if anything was to be done for players who goes the knock-out method of recruiting, it should be a lovescene with equal quality and ambition.

-edit- Crimsonrider, when I say "crappy and repurposed work" was in no way shape or form refering to your interesting video footage you put together,as I recognised the animations frame by frame from what you got there just do not want anything done that could potentially put Minthara out of character as an ambitious character that strives towards power in her point of view and one it feels like a disservice from a narrative point of view given how much you do miss out on going a different route of recruiting than the original, I always feel like the consequences bestowed upon you is more than worth it for Minthara as what ever the future may hold for Minthara just want it to feel like part of the intended design choices she was settled into after numerous (visual) reworks from early access as it feels just great right now, disregarding the few obvious mechanical flaws of course likely stemming from the fact she wasnt put into a playable origin slot.

Naturally, this is afterall just a conceptual 'what if' presentation using repurposed animations to put the point across that there needs to be a romance scene in ACT II to fill this night because it is romantically implied. Which is why I mentioned it is nothing groundbreaking, but having even something as basic as this feels better than not having anything at all.

• If the player never romanced her in ACT I; they would actually get to experience her slightly adjusted love scene from ACT I properly in ACT II.
• And if the player did romance her in ACT I, then ACT II would instead have a very short and simple fade to black unique scene to merely portray that she truly does belong to us that night.

The reason for this is because Larian will never ever make a completely unique quality scene for Minthara in ACT II, as she already has her love scene. Therefore it has to be the scene from Act I slightly adjusted if she was never romanced or a simple sweet and short fade-to-black scene as if she was romanced.

The reason for this is due to the fact that other companions have a single love scene with a failsafe to ensure it is not missed, along with several other romantic scenes... but Minthara doesn't have any failsafe for her love scene nor any romantic scenes either for that matter. She is a love interest without a love scene (if missed) and with zero romantic scenes.

Obviously as passionate as I am about Minthara; spending a whole week animating and creating a proper new unique romance scene for Minthara just for the purpose of pointing out her issues would be a waste of time when I have 13 more issues on my list to address and document, since I'm already wasting days being a playtester gathering feedback as it is.

But if they start actually caring and stop leaving Minthara under the care of a single unpaid intern for 7 months now, we might actually get the Minthara we deserve.

If not, then I actually will do her justice by doing everything myself.

The counterpoint generally presented is that having any way to recruit Minthara into the party that doesn't involve slaughtering the Grove will somehow diminish the Villainous and Goodly paths in this game, both at the same time. As if she's the only thing holding the Villainous path together (sans Durge), and that if somehow you make the wrong choice on that, you're basically playing wrong or doing a disservice to the character or the authors' intentions. The cognitive dissonance on that take is just unreal to me the more I let it sink in though.

We're supposed to pin it all on her? Given everything in the setup - that's the takeaway lesson there? Like what, that we shouldn't at least try to help this obvious cult victim Minthara break free of her programming by the absolute? We will never even get to confront the real issue being raised or that framing, or get the "cult" part, if the character is just off'd instantly and mindlessly so the PC can play conformist and feel all goody goody about it. This is very tough though, because the meta only reveals itself upon subsequent playthrough, and probably Durge run even, which will just break the brain, and kinda puts a different spin on everything that happens. Particularly the resist angle on that one.

Take the party counterpoints to Minthara, which to my mind would probably be Karlach and Wyll, since they will party break over this one hardcore. It's especially tough for Karlach though, because it's totally possible to run into her after the big branch has already occurred. Like she's not in a very obvious location on the map. It's pretty easy to blow right past her or to miss whatever setup on that.

If this does happen to the player, say they mess up at the Goblin camp, fail to recruit Minthara, but also somehow Halsin dies, or just botch the Grove, or whatever thousand little things that might happen in the variables, suddenly a character who might slot in as a replacement otherwise (Karlach), instead puts us immediately on blast holding us responsible for everything that's just happened. Even if it wasn't the PC's malicious intent, or even their actions, but perhaps just a mechanical mistake or some other cross faction thing. They accidentally clicked a red chest or AoE'd the wrong whoever, failed a check and now boom, everyone is killing each other...

Karlach isn't buying it at all. Despite us all having the same tadpoles in our heads and the ability to basically read each other's thoughts or motivations, and to have empathy potentially. There are a bunch of ways that the PC might goof, agro the Grove by accident, and then Kagha will kill all the Tiefs and complete the rite of thorns. Say say a witless Durge, who even though they mean well, still gets everyone killed by accident. Karlach will have none of that. She's an archetypal barbarian so you'd think she'd maybe understand the whole being blinded by rage thing, or being misled by someone she trusted or getting duped into falling for a charlatan (in the form of Gortash, Zariel etc).

But then here's Minthara, who's not even being brainwashed into this really, so much as being dominated (effectively drugged) by Orin and Gortash, and we're meant to feel nothing about that? Even after we see the meta on it? Some of the best interactions in the whole game are between Minthara and Karlach on the same side, kicking the shit out of Gortash and Orin in the endgame, and putting the breaks on all that nonsense - but how as the player do you ever get to see that?

Currently there are only a couple workable options. The first is to play Karlach as an Origin, but then play her completely against type. Meaning that as the PC, you'd do all the stuff as Karlach, which Karlach as a companion would disapprove of or party break over. This is weird, and yet there is an incentive to play that way as Origin, simply to see something you haven't seen before. This is a bit more extreme than say Gale becomes a Barbarian, or Shadowheart and Lae'zel are star crossed lovers from the first meeting on the Nautiloid as Origins, but also rather similar. We can do all that stuff with those Origins too, playing against type to see content that otherwise would never be there, but for the characters of Karlach and Wyll this seems particularly messed up somehow. Probably because the other characters occupy that gray space where we're not sure exactly what they're about, even if ultimately (when you let them make their own choices, or follow the obvious prompts) that they will trend towards Hero. So that's the first way to see it, which also requires playing as a pre-set Origin.

The other way to see it is to spare Minthara, while somehow also saving the Tiefs from the goblins and Kagha. This is an ultra meta approach, in that nothing the player is being fed along the way will indicate that such a path might be the more heroic and self sacrificing approach down the line. The only PCs who will naturally find themselves in that position are when the party completely commits to non-lethal, almost from the start of the game, and even then only since the most recent patches. If you do this, then there is a redemptive path open to Minthara. Perhaps not the one that matches with her first hot take, but again, most people will not even catch this on the first run. It's a replay factor thing. Likely a replay after one has already tried going totally villainous too.

Why do we suppose that there are so many players (actually I have clue how many there really are) but who want to try so hard to recruit Minthara along the heroic path at that point? Is it perhaps because it's just the right thing to do? Like cause it gives a more satisfying hero's journey, even if the story would seem to push us in the opposite direction? That by trying to force the player the other direction with hard party breaks, some players will just always try to push back on that, because Minthara herself is compelling, and one of the only ways for the PC to express a true redemptive arc. An arc that isn't ultimately self serving and hypocritical if the shoe were on the other foot.

Then add to this, just little off hand remarks made here and there, which indicate that Minthara doesn't know that half those lines that were recorded probably never get delivered. We can't play as Minthara (as Origin) currently, so there's no playing her against type in the same way one might my play Wyll or Karlach against type. I think they're doing it backwards there. If you want the story to be more compelling the framing shouldn't be irredeemable villains who are born bad and stay that way no matter what we do, it should be flawed Hero's who can still fail if their cognitive dissonance pushes them to become overzealous or to grandstand about it or don a mask on it and just pretend with the blinders on. It's the reflexive holier than though thing and then turning to violence as the appropriate response that's sort of weaksauce. Nothing is more compelling to me than a character who used to think they knew it all and had complete confidence, coming around to realize the flaw in that way of thinking. So even though Karlach and her heart is framed as the martyr or the tragic sacrifice, I actually think it's Minthara who slots more naturally into that role. If it was Minthara who offered to become the Mindflayer, that would seem an even more impressive turnaround to me than say Orpheus (who we just met) or Karlach (who doesn't deserve that fate) or the PC, cause that would be a pretty big deal and a lot of character growth in a relatively short span of time if Minthara stepped up. Well maybe not, cause Minthara is half way there already, it's just that she's under the influence of malign forces outside her control, getting sold down the river by Orin and Ketheric unless the player intervenes to give her a chance.

Peeps I guess would say, why go through all those mental gymnastics to try and redeem the unsung hero of this game? But my thinking is like, how about all the mental gymnastics required for not doing that? Even with a charlatan background Tav, it would put me to the test. For Wyll his big test of character (which isn't much of a test) is to spare Karlach at a cost to himself which isn't much of a cost. By going along to get along, the good character gets everything and nothing challenges them or their worldview. Everyone just nods like yeah, of course, burn the witch, she's a wicked Drow! As if we learned nothing at all from Viconia whatsoever. And then Minthara tells us point blank that she'll never tire of sitting on dead men's thrones, and peeps are supposed to think she's the big bad, given all the messed up stuff the dead three and their chosen did to her? We need to make sure she dies or that everyone else has to, and she has to be literally knocked on the head? Seems sus. All I'm saying is that.

OK maybe not, cause I always more to say about Minthara! hehe

But legit, why is it that so often the reaction to player feedback is something like, don't trust your players when they tell you what they want, or stick to your guns don't change the narrative to appease the fans cause it can only make your game worse, as if all fanatics were the same? Some fans have better reasons than others, maybe. I'll go with maybe. Sorry I had to get that off my chest, cause I've had it with that take! I don't care about what Plutarch might have thought about Theseus' fucking ship, and Hobbes was an absolutist of the first order. That thought experiment isn't very interesting to me, well actually it is pretty interesting! I'm super glad someone finally brought it up! I kinda love this stuff! That framing between being & becoming, and what's more the thing? It makes us really put the thinking cap on and puzzle over some of these issues. BG3 is such a great way to discuss all kinds of interesting questions. It's a cool article, here's the link...

https://www.thegamer.com/baldurs-gate-3-ship-of-theseus-kissing-animations-minthara-patch/

How about Ariadne builds the ship instead? or better yet they just dynamite barrel the gender binary tropes on that altogether, like a broadside from the port bow, just to piss Plutarch off and put him on blast hehe, cause that's another binary like good & evil, active & passive, and all the rest that are boring and have been fronted for like 2000 years now, harmful ideas that just kinda linger forever and become inescapable even worming into the language. BG3 has done much already to disrupt the usual framing and this is to the good on that front. It's an excellent first step. Give me something new! Something I haven't seen or heard before really. A new voice, a middle voice, maybe that voice!? Minthara's! Cause it's just so great!!! Something that can apply outside the game too for the expansion metaphor - then it's working. Games are tools to teach as much as they are to decompress and cut loose. It's cool when it aims for oath breaker wisdom as well and takeaways of that sort. I love this game! I love Minthara!

ps. sorry all that and I completely missed the point. The point would be - build a whole n' other ship! In other words - siding with the Grove or Camp that can still open a new path, that is still hidden or oblique, with Minthara and all that other stuff as the catalyst? Or both but with more parity. I hope they would do this with an expansion, by adding paths rather than closing them off, or paving over them. Or if we can't get that, then at least let us play dysfunctional Swiss Family Robinson with the pieces of the shipwreck in Acts I and Acts II somehow - cause by the time this becomes an important issue to anyone, let's be honest, they've either played the game already, or are already familiar with the meta on it, or it's a reload anyway. It's always great to experience a great story, but for this sort of thing, I want to help re-write the story as the player, while playing, on the next out. On the fly, cause that's BG/D&D for me. Doesn't have to be an amazing story or totally coherent if it's the riff, but just that when we get to weigh in like that as players via the set up and the systems, that has lasting appeal. Replay and party comp and all the stuff I like in a BG game or B flicks. Add to it, rather than replacing. Build some crazy tree fort on a shaky foundation in the sand for it as the player to revisit the story with the meta built into it somehow? I would show out for that like every weekend! lol

pps. kinda related not related, but also timeless and apropos. Shouldn't BG3 just have a riff on this? I mean in case this really was a first out and there are players who maybe never even caught that flick. This scene was probably scarier for me than anything in the Dark Crystal when I first checked it out as a kid, like that one and the Nome King from Return to Oz. Something about the claymation and grabby rocks that is just like the creepiest craziest analog. Sticks with me, that riddle with double doors, and instead it's a trap. We already have the Oubliette in this game and everything!


Something about Minthara taking on the Minotaurs in the Underdark!!!

I mean come on!!! How could we not want to see what that looks like? hehe

Counter point to the Labyrinth helping hands would maybe be the ones from this flick... lightin' em up! Like if Minthara somehow rode in on a Magnifique for the expansion but then just kept on riding, past the Emerald Gove and all that! Past the castle! Forget the woods! Basically at this point it just needs to not break the reel and melt the silver screen or be all cutting the ending into the middle by accident lol. Like if we can get that, I was having fun doing the silence trick to travel back in time a couple weeks ago. But obviously the silent era isn't quite I want. More like this...!

Well said Black Elk, well spotted.

I'm glad I'm not the only one here who realizes just how insanely much of a victim Minthara actually is, not just by the Absolute and her entire life in general, but even her writers who use it against her to present her as the "bad guy".

Someone who was dealt the worst cards imaginable in life from the moment she was born... yet unlike Astarion who is also a dominated victim, Minthara is instantly condemned and fully held responsible by majority of players and even Larian for actions she did not even do herself... the hypocrisy makes me very angry.

One thing related directly to this that I am extremely angry about and is also one of the issues I am going to be addressing is that she retains her True Soul Of The Absolute title even after she is recruited, when SHE IS A VICTIM of the cult.

Like WTF. Imagine if Astarion had "Cazador's Little Slave" under his name as a title or Karlach had "Archdevil Zariel's Property"... imagine if their past traumas were pinned under their names as their titles, as if that's who they are. So what the actual F is up with this constant perverted mistreatment of Minthara where even her victimhood is being used against her.

Pinning that title under her name like serving the Absolute is the very identity of who she is, when she's just the Absolute's dominated victim which created the most traumatizing experience of her entire life to the point she is so afraid of losing herself forever and nobody ever even truly knowing her or even remembering her... her greatest failure in life she cripplingly fears because of what Orin did to her. Using it against her to present her as a bad guy, as if being a True Soul is what she truly wanted. It just really makes me mad because Jaheira has her title too, but her title is a defining trait of her character that does her service.

Everything Larian did with Minthara is so tone deaf and blindly made for the purpose of forcibly trying to portray her as an "evil" companion by literally pinning her entire victimhood on her, when in reality SHE IS EXACTLY like Lae'zel. Just like Lae'zel she doesn't kill mindlessly, comes from a very strict brainwashing society, loyal to no end, reasonable, pragmatic, honourable to an extent and living as an exile in a world she knows nothing about. And every player that ends up killing her is literally killing a victim and fulfilling her ultimate fear, but they're morally okay with it because Larian used her victimhood against her to portray her as a "bad guy".

Disgusting!

I for one AM REALLY CURIOUS to see how they will make Halsin leave once that leaked dialogue is added to the game, because the only way I see drama escalating is if Halsin becomes unreasonably emotional and starts blowing off steam.. I do not see Minthara arguing with him at all because she is incredibly reasonable, levelheaded and would not see any purpose in breaking up any potential alliances against the Absolute.

But just watch, they will somehow pin it on her again.

Like many others, I also put my Minthara playthrough on hold due to the many bugs and issues with her character and dialogue. It made me so disappointed to learn just how neglected her character is that I made an account just to throw in my two cents.

Players are WELL FED with content from the other companions, like others have already mentioned. But we get breadcrumbs because we like the one truly evil companion? The one companion who's romance has been broken since the start and never polished? It's so noticeable because it's such a stark contrast to the detailed, cohesive stories, romances, and interactions we get with everyone else.

PLUS, this issue with the bugged dark urge dialogue REALLY has me peeved. She feels like the most relevant companion to that story arc and you can't even talk to her about it!

Please Larian, just fix our Baenre babe... #JusticeForMinty

I'm glad to not feel alone about Minthara being so victimized, I don't see her as evil once you got to know her dialogues on what led her to Absolutes grasp and rest of it.

It was such a joy reading Black_Elks reply and I feel privileged to be part of fans who feel so passionate about MInthara.

The thing is she isn't a truly evil companion whatsoever, but I don't blame you for thinking so because Larian intentionally made it impossible for most players to perceive her any other way due to how much is lost by legitimately recruiting her (something that's not even her fault) and using absolutely everything against her trying to make her look bad.

She's in fact an almost-exact reflection of Lae'zel and even better than her, because unlike Lae'zel whose biggest flaw is her own dense sense of honourable duty no matter what to the point she'd even doom everyone around her, Minthara is a calm pragmatic who looks at a situation and acts accordingly out of necessity and logic, not out of malice or any misguided reasons.

• Both come from a brainwashing society with very deep rooted cultures (which is why Minthara is fascinated by Lae'zel a lot)
• Both kill and enjoy killing, however unlike Lae'zel who literally does kill for the sake of glory and doesn't have a single issue with murdering the Grove, Minthara hates mindless purposeless killing (both for the Grove and Dark Urge)
• Both are loyal to no end, except Lae'zel remains loyal as long as your actions align with her own dense sense of duty. If they do not, she'll betray you in an instant even if it dooms the party or the world.
• Both are reasonable, however Lae'zel (once again) stops being reasonable when her duty clashes with what must be done and would doom the party or the world.
• Both are exiles in a world they know nothing about, with their own cultures often clashing due to their inexperience.
• Ultimately Minthara is a calm pragmatic, while Lae'zel is a blindly emotional honour-bound naive fool (I don't mean this as an insult, she just truly is a blind naive fool who's unable to see what needs to be done).

And most importantly; the Minthara raiding the Grove is not Minthara, that's just a dominated puppet. The real Minthara is the person we meet during the love scene in ACT I and afterwards in ACT II once she's rescued, someone who would never even raid the Grove to begin with, not because she is a saint, but because she would have no reason to mindlessly kill refugees.

In short; I would fully put my life in Minthara's hands and sleep peacefully at night without a care in the world because she is the epitome of loyalty, I can't say the same about Lae'zel despite how much I also love her. So although I understand why people think that Minthara is truly evil, she is in fact not the worst companion at all. Astarion would be the worst as he truly loves inflicting misery upon others, followed by Lae'zel and only then Minthara.

But thank you so much for joining the forums, every voice is appreciated in support of Minthara!

I wonder if the writers continuing to treat Minthara as the evil companion is because her redeeming qualities only come into being when she was made recruitable. I would not be surprised if when she was written he was always meant to be evil and a loyal true soul, with all the extra stuff added when they decided to male her a companion, much like the act 3 Halsin stuff people have a problem with. So as a whole the writers still associate her with her original, fully evil identity. I've never seen any companion Minthara dialogue since I've never at any point tried to recruit her or raided the grove, so presumably I and players like me never have any idea there's anything more to Minthara. All this does is further prove to me that adding her and Halson as companions was a mistake because Larian are not capable of doing so in a satisfactory manner.

Nah, even during Early Access Minthara was never portrayed as a genocidal evil maniac, but the Absolute's slave who becomes caring, compassionate and terribly conflicted when the artefact temporarily breaks her domination during that celebration night. Here's my comment about her romance even back then during Early Access where we were discussing the "evil" path;

"I found her romance to be very sweet, especially with her wishing to take us as a consort to Menzoberranzan and belonging to each other for eternity."

To which The Red Queen replied that our definitions of sweet wildly differ

But I was honestly not wrong, because Minthara is incredibly beautiful with her charming personality, full of unconditional love and devotion, loyal to the very end and in awe with the main character. She is the only companion who ENTIRELY has the player's back no matter what after she's rescued. And even while she's half-controlled by the Absolute, she tries to kill the main character peacefully in their sleep so they don't feel pain.

Larian also had plenty of other detailed aspects about Minthara that were never included, including the fact that she would get pregnant and all companions (including Karlach calling her Minthy and wanting to be the child's godmother) would comment about it. So she was not only always intended to be a companion, her content was so much more fulfilling and not even clashing against having Karlach if legitimately recruited.

But Larian clearly rushed the game, cut corners, merged some storylines to "make sense" and by doing so left her entire side to gather dust just like Karlach and Wyll got ruined for release. Karlach and Wyll's early access stories were SO MUCH BETTER than what we got, because Karlach in particular had business in Baldur's Gate due to Zariel and her lackeys, while Wyll was rushing to save Mizora from the Absolute. The full release Karlach however is just... a virgin romance simulator and Wyll is Wyll.

Minthara is simply a victim of Larian rushing and having no freaking idea what they're doing with her, which is still going on 7 months after release.