Larian Studios Forums Baldur's Gate III Baldur's Gate III - Suggestions & Feedback Die check to save both Emperor and Orpheus

Would it be possible in a future patch to add an option to save both the Emperor and Orpheus, then adjust the ending to allow that?

I propose that this be made into a 25 or 30 die roll check, where the player rolls to see the 2 of them work together.

Given the situation, I could see that both of them, for reasons of pragmatism, can temporarily set aside their differences.

Orpheus would never work willingly with an Illithid as he believes it will betray him. He only turns into an Illithid to finish the fight and then will suicide as he is not sure even he can control it for muchg longer. Also consider that Emperor has essentially enslaved Orpheus for this whole time, not something Orpheus is likely to forgive.

The choice is literally to work together or let the Netherbrain complete the Grand Design.

I can't possibly see a world where working together is the greater evil compared to letting the Netherbrain win. Even where you free Orpheus, you can see when he is released that he is resentful, but that the greater good must take over and that he must take the pragmatic route.

I don’t really see a reason why would Orpheus side with Emperor. Enslaved Prince is the only thing Emperor is bringing to the table.

What alternative would Orpheus have? Fight the party and get killed? He's outnumbered 5 to 1 (party of 4 + emperor). Even if Orpheus were to win, he'd be so badly weakened that the Netherbrain would have an easier time carrying out the Grand Design, having lost potentially 5 people to side with. Orpheus is trying to save his people from Vlaakith here. Getting killed from being outnumbered 5 to 1 isn't going to save the Githyanki, nor is allowing the Netherbrain to complete its objectives (which would bring the Githyanki back into slavery).

As for the Emperor, he brings a lot more than you might think. Keep in mind that the Emperor is still another ally in the fight - and if the player has not chosen someone in their party (themselves or Karlach) to become a mind flayer, he's the only person who can bring the Netherbrain to heel. It's clear that Orpheus himself doesn't want to become ghaik (he begs you to do a "mercy killing" if he has to transform to become ghaik). Every bit counts when the odds are against Orpheus.


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The way I see it, it gives the player options. If you want to RP siding with one or the other, there should be an option to side with one or the other, which is the status quo.

But if you want both and are able to pass a dice roll, it gives the player options to try and roll for both.

Just get the Emperor out of the story. He screws it up so badly.

Yes please. For a game of "unlimited choice" we some times have some very odds limits.

I had also hoped for some golden ending where we could get them to suffer through working together until the brain is defeated, but I really don't think they'd trust each other.

I feel like the closest we could get might be an ending where:

• we successfully convince the Emperor to trust us and take a chance on freeing Orpheus
• we also convince Orpheus that we already have an illithid to get this done and no one else needs to become one
• they work together but Orpheus takes that "the brain is basically defeated, do you betray the illithid companion?" moment and guts the Emperor
• it's vague enough that it's up to the player's interpretation to decide if they believe that the Emperor was actually trying to seize control of the brain at the end, or if Orpheus was just not taking any chances and acted prematurely/instinctively
• player then gets option to kill/spare Orpheus for this, the biggest mess

Ultimately I think one or both of them would still end up dead even if they do work together in that final hour, but it feels better to be able to try and fail than to be denied the chance of trying at all.

I can't imagine siding with Orpheus again though, maybe not until I do a gith run anyway.
"You should have let my honor guard kill you." lol then perish.

For people that have not completed the game yet - spoilers ahead!

There are actually a lot of possible lore appropriate additions to their situation that can be implemented:
1) Convince Emperor to wake Orpheus (while he is still imprisoned) with one hard Persuasion check and try to negotiate with Orpheus to work with illithid / us as second hard Persuasion check. If you succeed both, they make a truce and you can release Orpheus with Orphic Hammer when you get it without Emperor turning hostile and they both accompany you in final battle (and there are more enemies present to compensate).
2) If you failed any of these checks, but have Ring of Mental Protection, you can give it to Emperor and convince him with hard Persuasion check that releasing Orpheus is still necessary (since his powers are still needed). Emperor takes the ring and leaves and then you can release Orpheus. That leads to Orpheus helping party and Emperor not present in final battle at all (neither helping nor opposing).
3) Orpheus can still have an option to turn into illithid and control the stones even with truce and Emperor present, since very likely he does not trust Emperor enough and could be convinced to deal with Netherbrain himself.
4) After the battle, if both were working together there can be a twist where Orpheus turns on Emperor and threatens to kill him for "abusing his powers". You can talk him out with hard Persuasion check or pick a side and fight the other one.
5) In case Emperor still leaves and decides to oppose you in final fight, you should be able to knock him out and game should not count that as his death. That can have consequence of him waking after the battle and either explaining his behaviour (since he is quite quick to switch sides and trade his freedom that he tried to preserve for centuries) or cursing you, but still leaving peacefully.

Not strictly true. Vlaakith 1 imprisoned Orpheus and subsequent Vlaakiths kept him boxed.

At the point at which the Emperor works with Duke Tremayne in Baldurs Gate he doesn't even know the prism exists.
That came later, after he was sent back to the elder brain by an adult Gortash, then sent to find the artefact by the brain, found it (read: Stole it from the Githyanki) and got his free will back.
This is all very recent stuff and its all in the game with flashbacks.

So really the Emperor uses Orpheus's power and stops him from being freed but that was for a very short space of time, probably only a handful of months at the most. (I suspect its only a week or so as the honourguard were perfectly capable of downing the Emperor the one time we see them in action and I doubt he could have been fending them off solo for very long).

Pretty sure Orpheus could be pragmatic if approached right, especially if it saves him having to become Illythid himself - after all he picks up on the necessity for there being an Illythid in the attack squad very quickly. He doesn't have to trust him, it's an 'enemy of my enemy is my friend' situation.

Yep - I think that there should be a "perfect" ending option, maybe as well as a more "you won, but heavy losses" kind of ending.

I think these are really good ideas ,I am hoping that we could get a ending where the emperor and Orpheus are alive .

I am very passionate about the lack of logic in the current ending so I'm going to post my thoughts

Emperor should absolutely not side with the Netherbrain in the case of the true souls freeing Orpheus. Siding with the Netherbrain means it loses its freedom, which is exactly what it has been working against the entire story; That is the exact opposite of what it wants.

Its very clear that the Emperor is not afraid of taking a risk: It is taking a risk by consuming Orpheus. It clearly states earlier on that consuming Orpheus is a massive risk because it doesn't know whether by consuming Orpheus that it will obtain his powers to disrupt hive mind communication. Consuming Orpheus brings with it the non-0% chance of the Emperor not gaining Orpheus's hive mind disruption powers. The only reason the Emperor feels it must consume him is because this is its last-ditch attempt to take down the netherbrain.

So, in the light of this, why can't the Emperor accept the risk of Orpheus turning on it and killing it once he is freed? Logically speaking, it has either:

- a 100% chance of being controlled by the netherbrain and either being its puppet again or dying to the true souls
- a greater than 0% chance of Orpheus sparing it and then killing the netherbrain together

Considering the Emperor knows that only an illithid can control the netherbrain, it's highly likely that it realizes that it can find a way to negotiate with Orpheus. After all, Orpheus logically speaking has basically 2 options:

- Kill the emperor and have to turn illithid/have someone else who is not full-illithid become full-illithid
- work with the emperor and take down the netherbrain

and for the argument that, "Orpheus doesn't know if he can trust the Emperor; What if he turns on them at the last moment, controlling the netherbrain rather than destroying it?", I have this response:

Orpheus still retains hive-mind disruption, therefore he (and the true souls) would be unaffected by the Emperor's subjugation of the netherbrain. Because of this, if he for a moment thinks the emperor is going to turn on them, he and the true souls can kill it. Therefore, the Emperor, who is so concerned with its own survival, should definitely be trustworthy. After all, a mind flayer with a common goal as you is the only time where it is okay to trust a mind flayer.

I agree, it's incredibly jarring when the Emperor makes that decision. And makes even less sense when he shows up at the final battle against the very team he has personally seen squash enemies against all odds and under any circumstances. In these two instances he goes against everything the game has been telling us about his character, that he values self-preservation and freedom above all.

You made some very good points. A character who has been supportive of the Emperor should have the ability to persuade him to trust us to protect him against Orpheus.

It's so weird that the Emperor would not try to at least talk to Orpheus. He just assumes that Orpheus would just kill him on the spot but when you wake Orpheus he knows what's going on. Been save scumming to get different endings and the one where "someone" has to himself. To me, it makes the choice of whether Tav . or someone else completely pointless. There is no reason for any of that to happen if you choose the sacrifice path. It's like they don't trust that he can do it, but don't object at all when he tries and succeeds. They stayed turned but did not need to turn. It's somewhat disconcerting to me to make these choices several times.

The Emperor is pretty much going against their character by joining the Brain.

At the very least, I think that a die check would be the best solution. The player still has the opportunity to side with one or the other, but has a chance to do both for a great ending.

It just needs a more elaborate story.

I think they ran out of time honestly. The story writers im SURE had more in mind.

If they actually had the time - they should have done it something like this:

For example ... I freed orpheus, teamed up with him, and became a mindflayer.

Then near the end battle, I fought The Emperor.

However, I should have the ability to to not finish him off. Maybe, each time I kill off an enemy, like the dragon, the Emperor talks, and I have to pass some checks, maybe based off some of the things I did with him throughout the game. Bringing up the dragon, the founding of baldurs gate, orpheus, if you romanticized him. If you pass enough of the dialogues, you can change his mind, and he then joins you for the final fight, and maybe leads to curing you of the mindflayer status...which is my major problem with the ending.

There are a whole bunch of things that I dislike about the options for the ending, but I still think that letting us recruit or save both Orpheus and the Emperor would undermine it in a way I'd also find unsatisfying. But I do wish it were possible to persuade the Emperor to let us free Orpheus and there then to be some dialogue with both, even if Orpheus refused to work with the Emperor and we were then forced to choose. I feel that siding with the Emperor over Orpheus would be an option for more characters if we could talk to Orpheus and give him the option to cooperate first, rather than condemning him without even speaking to him.

I also agree that the Emperor leaving in a huff as he does is really jarring, and would much prefer there to be a showdown there and then if things didn't go his way. Especially as I found the fight with him in the finale a bit of a damp squib, given you can (and probably should) just ignore him and head for the brain.

But my friend, every story benefits from a dragon. Lol

(But I agree with you.)

You don't have to like it. If you personally think it undermines whatever, you can choose a different option. That's the point of having options.

Having Emperor turn on the party and literally join the enemy they have been working with you to defeat for the whole game is pretty ridiculous. Not to mention that Emperor's original form happens to be a really important person in BG lore. It's just a game, but it's still wonky, speaking as an editor.