Larian Studios Forums Baldur's Gate III Baldur's Gate III - Suggestions & Feedback Astarion romance improvements

This 100 %


This 100 % (Well said, Liriel!)

I really do like Astarions dominant animations and all his facial expressions. If they would show consensuality, Tav enjoying and loving Astarion, everything would be great.

The more I think about these scenes, the more I analyse them, the more it makes me (and others) sick, how our Tavs are portrayed in here with their bodylanguage and facial expressions: As an unhappy victim of abuse, a soulless doll, a sextoy, without their own will, just there to fullfill the man’s fantasy. (Yes, the man’s. Not Astarion‘s. He doesn’t even deserve to be mistaken with the one who was in charge of Tavs animations)

For us, especially for women, (which I guess, are the main audience of Astarion Romance), this is a HUGE slap into our faces. Disrespectful. To give us a „romance“ kiss, call the Patch „Valentine’s Patch“ and „Love is in the air in Faerûn“ and „to better reflect the connection between players and their partners (!) - love truly (!) has been in the air in the office“, BUT, where our Tavs are sad, unhappy, feeling uncomfortable, rejecting - and because of that portrayed as a sex doll and victim of abuse.

If you watch in slow motions and analyse the facial expressions and body language of Tav (especially with free camera) you will come to no other conclusion than that. The scream, the terrified, pissed-off, disgusted, unhappy, blank look (even if he smiles, it looks like a forced smile, even a bit contempt as it is more one-sided – just compare them to his regular smiles in other scenes), clenching his fists, rejecting his Partner, no touches at all, defensive posture (!).

In the Bite kiss, which could have been a great one, because Astarion biting and pulling Tav deeper in is very passionate, Tav has the most weirdest doll face I have ever seen in my life (especially the end sequence) and is really portrayed as a sex toy.

Already at the beginning Tav has an expressionless doll face, slightly concerned what will happen, not happy at all (compare it with his old kiss scene, where Tav is really happy when a kiss starts), he is just making a „I am your sex doll“ face to please a man / his abuser. I have never seen such a doll face in the entire game. My male Tav even looks like a woman himself (!) with that doll face. Maybe on a woman’s face it is not seen so clearly, I haven’t tested this out.
At the end of the kiss, when it seems Tav would „like“ to kiss his partner, you clearly see that Tav is afraid and miles away, he is uncomfortable! And suddenly he puts his big "female" sensual lips on to kiss his „partner“ (a sick fantasy of an abuser, the victim is there to please him)
After the little slap, Tav again puts his strange doll face on (my male Tav again totally has a woman’s face), just now, it is a pissed-off variant, which screams to us players: get me out of here (but I don’t dare to say a thing to my abuser)

Maybe other people find that doll face expression even cute or cannot see it like that. But I can't help myself but to sense how unhappy our Tav is, just there to fullfill, what the man demands. This and everything else in his bodylanguage and facial expressions make it very clear: Tav is portrayed as an unhappy, soulless sex doll for a sick man’s (not Astarion's) desire and pleasure. In romance KISSES, implemented 6 MONTHS after release, which were announced as „love is in the air and in our office“. Really, Guys? What kind of sick love is that, where a partner is shown as an unhappy victim of abuse?

Whoever was in charge of this has done a disrespect not only toward us players, but toward women and real victims of abuse (of course male victims included).
Not only this portray of Tav doesn’t fit into the story (as others has already mentioned before), it is a big, big slap into women’s faces.
People, who are laughing about ascended players á la „haha, now finally Astarion is portrayed as an abuser!“ – just slaps into women’s faces too. Does someone really support the player’s Tav being shown like an unhappy (female) sexdoll in an implemented kiss, that was meant to make players happy around Valentine’s day?

I myself cannot even imagine how someone is even ABLE to create such a portray of Tav and call it „love is in the air“ without an abuse boner (thank’s for that word, Ametris) or having a sadistic personal disorder by himself.

Also for people who are into SM (REAL! SM) or into other variants of dominance (which are surely a lot of ascended fans), it’s a HUGE disservice, as Tav is shown here as an unhappy, abused sex toy. People who don’t know what healthy SM is about, will get the impression, BDSM would be a very sick disorder. What it is definitely not, when consensual and both enjoy it. Also in BDSM partners love each others, they do not hate each others or are disgusted by their partner as it is portrayed in Tav.

These kisses could have beeen mindblowing and great, could have made many players happy, Astarion’s dominance, animation and facial expressions are well done. But ONLY if consensual. If Tav loves him. And that is, what we are asking for.

Let our Tavs enjoy Astarion in these kisses as we are enjoying him and his dominance. As it is now, seeing Tav sad, unhappy and rejecting, it is unbearable to watch.

Stop that damn unhappy victim of abuse and sex doll portray of our Tavs. (That is cruel SADISM PERSONALITY DISORDER, not SM!!!) Such a thing should never be implemented into a game, and not even while a lot of players are enjoying their roleplay and romance. Tav’s soulless sex doll behaviour contradicts everything in the story. It only promotes dangerous sexual abuse and disorder or that it would be okay to see women as soulless sexual objects. Just NO.
This makes a lot of player angry and stopped them from playing the game.

As a complete failure at avoiding the vampire even on my Tav's created for other companions entering stage left : Gale

In my dark urge run playthrough number 2 having not ascended Astarion in my first run I went in on that boat of him being ascended this time knowing exactly what I'm doing not as some naïve Tav I committed to slayer in early act 2 these new kisses would be fine if not for the Tav's facial animations I'm all in for no redemption why would I be scared of some Vampire Lord I basically created "I used my Tadpole to be his eyes"
I could of always reversed uno carded him with in the name of Bhaal prior to patch 6 now I can't

I chose make it hurt option in the bite scene but these faces are awful on my Tav .
Kind of want the option to dump him for Gortash maybe prevent his death lol I can dream.

I reckon they should just have an option for dark urge kisses that are sadistic and mean but thoroughly enjoyed by my Tav not the "now you are a victim" look.
The game is a masterclass in immersion I feel for all the characters but this look its not sitting well breaks it entirely.

The body language makes it so much worse!


The sheer irony of it is just absurd.


Also the same guy who is chill with you going to Avernus and letting you become a certain thing in the evil ending.

He is such an abusive monster that they even included these new hidden dialogue options in the script in the same (!) patch:

Tav (who sees him during the epilogue party after returning from Avernus): I'm sorry I kind of disappeared. I didn't mean to you leave you like that.
AA: Oh my dear, you didn't leave me - I let you go. If I'd wanted you to stay I only had to say the word and you would have been back by my side. But I'm not some controlling monster. I wanted to give you space to see what else is out there, make your own mistakes, and return to me ready to fully appreciate our life [together?]. Anyway, I had more than enough to keep me busy while you were gallivanting in another plane.
---
AA: And who knows what's next? There is an entire world out there, ready for the taking.
Tav: Just don't do anything too drastic while I'm away? I don't want to miss out.
AA: I make no promises, but I shall try. Bloodshed is always more fun with company, after all.


It seems like someone from Larian does want to give us a good dark romance but then they get trolled by someone else who wants to push the abuser theme, and we end up with a narrative mess.

Given that Astarion in Act 1, to Tav's words that if he tries to kill, will take you with him, replies, oh, you have fire in you! - don't get mad.
Laughs when Druge says how he's going to take over the world and shake it.
And then says, to his spawn, you'll drink my blood too. Which could be a Kin-Nectar reference. The blood itself doesn't turn the spawn into a True Vampire, apparently Astarion got splattered with Cazador's blood. There must be a clear intent.
I was expecting something like that from the kisses.
But not the victim's terrified face being pushed away.


From my observation, AA's target audience is Morticia Adams, who will carve her lover's name on her ankle herself.

The more I think about it, the less I think the trapped/abused narrative even makes sense. There are many opportunities for Tav to escape the relationship if it was truly unwanted. The default assumption should be that it was chosen willingly/knowingly by anyone who gets past the kneeling and the morning after conversation.

A Tav who chose to be with the Ascendant should look just as happy and besotted as a Tav who chose to be with him as a Spawn.

I've long thought for Astarion's story to be coherent there needs to be a Definitive Edition. But this proposal is too ambitious and considering what Tav we got I'm already dreading the prospect of patches.

I had an idea on how to make this building stand.
With a dominant Astarion and an neat and romantic Astarion, and the whole thing doesn't open up or connect in any way.
At the release I found EA reviews I read speculating what a romance with Astarion might look like:
He turns Tav into Spawn. He turns Tav into a True Vampire. He possibly becomes mortal and returns to Magistrate life with Tav.
Some options are impossible.

But the dynamics of the relationship can change, depending on how the player plays the game.
Essentially, we have several ways to play with Lord Astarion:
- Power Couple where he is the leader and the commander (it's like Druge or wild Tav) is what in my opinion was before patch 6. Tav has daring answers.
- Power Couple (submission to the absolute) where Lord Astarion is also in the lead, perhaps, not clear, maybe odd numbers of the calendar.
- Dynamics d\s - what I assumed was not revealed in game before the ritual. (this is what showed incredibly crude, clumsy and just plain awful on many levels in patch 6)

It's really Lovitar in Act 3, a big, huge temple. Or at least something.

We go in and realize what kinds of things Astarion likes or doesn't like. We accept them and tell Astarion – ok, get 5 approvals.
So the player discovers the D\S dynamic, it opens up and then these kisses are understood, revealed and all is well. Maybe after the ritual, the spawn of Astarion will behave more dominant if such a quest were to occur.

However, if Tav don't say - ok, Astarion doesn't approve or nothing. But since he saw the temple of Lovitar - Trigger happened, becoming Lord and very sure he will make just the attempt. It's time to dominate Tav.

However, if Tav was saying "no" at the temple of Lovitar. Lord Astarion might make the attempt, but he would be easier to convince - no. If dice fail "yes or no".
If Tav told Astarion "yes" at Lovitar Temple - conviction will not be available.

Though of course this scene...Yes, no, yes, no, ok, bye then.
So far, the only person who's cared about in 200 years because didn't kneel, even though Tav agreed to be a spawn. And now after patch 6, any interpretation of kneeling as a single time of complete trust, loyalty and obedience (if Tav doesn't ask for it more), unrelated to sexuality (?) any thoughts are simply erased.

The kind of kiss Lord has now isn't even after the bed scene. Right after the ritual is mindless fanservice based on memes. Just to see the animation of the knees. Should I even think about it?

I’m also feeling very uncomfortable with Ascended Astarion’s new kisses, not because of what Astarion does (evil vampire is going to be evil after all), but because of Tav’s expressions and their responses.
It’s clear Tav is not enjoying Astarion's kisses and that they are scared of him. Tav has no agency. This is an abusive relationship and we are unable to frame it as anything else.
I honestly didn’t expect to have such a strong reaction, but seeing Tav completely scared and helpless was triggering. I guess I wasn't prepared for RL trauma to be shoved into my romance fantasies.
The sad thing is, those kisses could be so very, very hot, if only Tav’s body-language was different.

This is the sort of thing I’d prefer to see from Tav:

-Wicked/knowing smiles instead of looking terrified
-Coyly wiping the blood from their mouth and then licking their finger, slowly, teasing him with it
-Enthusiastically kissing him back
-Biting him (yes, please!)

I’ve no problem with violence and power-play in a dark romance, but to me, the ‘romance’ element seems to be completely lacking here.
I know Larian said in interviews that they want the player to know they’ve made a bad choice if they ascend Astarion and they want us to regret it, but I don’t think railroading us like this is a good idea, especially when it's a topic as sensitive as abuse within a relationship.

Considering what Tav does, even on a morally good playthrough, it seems unlikely they'd be so cowed. We've killed demons, defied gods...
An evil Durge Tav definitely wouldn't be cowering and helpless.
I can't understand why we're suddenly getting this message that A.Astarion and Tav can't have a relationship that is satisfying for both of them. Especially when that message is contradicted in some of the new lines that were added where they seem to have a more equal partnership.

It’s even more strange when you consider what the game does allow; up to now it’s been very much ‘play it your way’ when it comes to the romance, and I really loved that.
Any pairing you like, go wild
Want some fantasy hentai? Game’s got you covered
Want fantasy sex with the druid in bear form? Larian says have fun
Want to play consort to a powerful vampire without seeing your avatar portrayed as a scared and helpless victim? Not happening.
I can’t help feeling a little judged here.

I did have an evil Durge playthrough romancing A.Astarion on my BG3 bucket-list but for now I’ve crossed it off.

(edit: pesky typo)

I second everything that's been said about the new kisses. I'm not sure what the response from us as fans needs to be, but I do know we need to have a response to make sure Larian knows they dropped the ball big time here. They don't punish the player in any other romance/route, so why here? You can murder a Grove full of druids and tieflings or become the Absolute, and the game doesn't actively punish you for any of it. You just lose some side quests. But a late game romance you have to actively sacrifice 7000 souls to get and constantly agree to take part in? Can't let the fans interpret that as anything but abusive! There's a reason they didn't give ascended Astarion a kiss in the epilogue (no it wasn't an oversight and at this point I don't think they'll ever give that kiss to the fans because they don't want to do that), and this feels like continuation of that theme of punishing a specific category of players for making choices they provded for us to make. Like the dark undertone in the romance until this patch was good. I say this as someone who writes primarily dark romance. People who engage in dark romance tend to be aware that they're not things you want in real life. Larian seems to not be aware of that. Larian doesn't seem to understand that people RPing a character choosing to sacrifice 7000 souls to make one person happy might know that's not a good guy choice, and they're actively playing a character that wants what Astarion is offering. Larian really seems to want you to play the game a certain way and they can't stand that you don't do what they want. For example as much as I like having Minthara recruitable, I can't help but feel that they just took the only real incentive people had to play "the evil route". Now it seems they're trying to push people away from ascending Astarion. I do wonder what's next on the chopping block. Siding with Gortash maybe.

Idk maybe we should just send Larian direct feedback and explain why what they've done is so bad; it takes away player agency and choice to the extreme (and player choice was one of their selling points so maybe they should remember that) and triggers abuse survivors for a start. I dunno if it would accomplish anything but clogging their feedback inbox, but in an ideal world it would get the message across. I mean they made a game for adults. It's rated 18/M. It would be nice if they remembered that, and trusted their target audience of adults to be aware that sacrificing 7000 souls for one guy's happiness is bad, and just let the romance be a proper dark romance.

They could add dialogues to the 2nd sex scene in the 1st act to indicate Astarion wants to try out some kinkier things with Tav and ask if they are into it. If someone didn't get that scene (they slept together for the first time during the party) it could happen as a new scene where he randomly invites you for another night (like in Lae'zel's romance) and you have this conversation. They don't even need to make a new sex scene.

The fluffy and vanilla Astarion and sexy and dominant Astarion just don't work well together. As melgreg said earlier, the fact he loses his kinky bone completely is inconsistent. It honestly looks like he feels so emasculated by Tav making his life decisions for him that he doesn't dare/feel confident enough to express his sexuality. Unless, that's the message they want to convey, which is not what I'd call a "good" ending.


Did they actually explicitly say they want you to feel bad for playing as an evil character and/or romancing an evil character? Because if they're so much into moralising, maybe they should start making games with a moral message for children instead. This is supposed to be a dark fantasy RPG for adults.


Let's not forget about Haarlep who engages with you while your partner watches with clenched fists and can do nothing about it. Apparently, abusing your partner is cool these days.


That's not a viable path to begin with, sadly, seeing how it ends. Just a wasted potential.

It's kind of depressing to read the comments under the video. Fans are already normalizing Tav's faces and behaviour as "roleplaying".

The dialogue seems to be Karlach exclusive, though (not for a Tav accompanying her) as it has the REALLY_KARLACH tag. And it also has the break-up tag, so I don't read this as him "being chill" with her leaving him. It's the same reaction he shows a few nights after Tav breaks up with him - trying to get back on the high horse and not showing that he regrets losing them, covering his wounded pride and sorrow with badly played indifference and benevolence. "I let you go" sounds better than "You left me".

Be it as it may, it shows he secretly cares (even if the big, bad, evil Vampire Lord wouldn't admit it). In one of the epilogue videos from the same poster he says it's a lonesome existence to be in power and pretends to shrug it off. Oof. So why would he want to make Tav miserable as long as they are playing along? And obviously we have a choice to play along as we can play the evil power couple in the epilogue through the dialogue with him - there's no scared face and abused Tav/Durge in sight. It just gets hinted at if you choose the freedom-dialogue, otherwise you can boast how formidable you are together.



It certainly looks that way. It's mindboggling how the kisses can exist in the same patch as these layered dialogues.

Yes, it's true, sometimes virtue doesn't bring happiness. It is good, but it hurts and it takes time.
Ascended Astarion is a vice, a power, he gets a new life and his sexuality is a hurricane.
It only happens with Tav as an ally who says "yes" to vice.
Well now with more sadistic kissing when Tav is the victim-(which is irrational for story)

Larian must define this is a "Dark Romance" where there is a caring, love-obsessed, everyone is having fun, two villains on the road of vice. Evil, but good.
Or "It's bad, you failed, you don't understand, you're suffering, it's gonna be bad, abuse" - If it's in play there's no romance with an evil man, for the path of evil.

Well, Larian probably said.

Apologies for being misleading there. I went back and read the last interview with IGN (which is where I thought I got that) and it's a lot more nuanced. There's been a bit of noise on the internet recently about how it's intended for the player to feel bad if they chose an evil path and I must have scrambled some of that in with what was actually said by Larian. My bad for not fact-checking.


There's a bit of a value judgement in there but it's nowhere near as black and white as I suggested.

You could be talking about this bit, which I honestly find very interesting and valid, at least on my end I have no complaints and agree with Adam's writing philosophy.

I would recommend clogging up their emails as a way for them to notice. supportbg3@ larian.com with no spaces
I really doubt they take much notice of the forums, and the discord has lost the voting thing on suggestions (so every suggestion is now a one off by one player - sigh).
It seems clear to my mind that they have decided to punish players for their choices if they aren't the 'good' (in their heads) choices. Not acceptable in an RPG.
I would never be scared or afraid of Astarion and deeply resent those animations being forced on me.
So much so that I'm thinking of rolling back to pre patch 6 (nothing much else apart from a few missing cut scenes had happened on my last playthrough - I can live without them) and locking the game so it can't be updated

@Bethra Thank you for posting the email address. I think direct contact is a good idea

That's the email you are asked to reply to when they have further questions about a ticket you send via the bug report and feedback form on the support page. In the bug report form you can switch "report type" to feedback.

I would suggest trying to convey these thoughts to Larian.Maybe a petition or something? I really don't think Larian will listen to anything. I am extremely disappointed in what they do and what they say in interviews.

And I really don’t like that they impose their opinion in RPG....This approach is not bad, but in other genres where there is no player avatar and choice.

I should have checked the screenshots better, I thought it was for Tav who went with Karlach, thanks for pointing it out! You're right, the lines still carry across the message that he does care about his lover and how they feel and wants them to love him back.
Nooo, they shouldn't normalise that.


Ah, that interview. It's a bit disingenuous of them to say we tell him to be scared because these are not the dialogue options we are presented with in the game during the ascension. He asks us to help him and we do, it's just that. It's the same as telling the other companions: "it's your call, do what you must, I'll be here if you need me".


To me these statements sound like excuses. What I read is "we ran out of time and ideas to make the evil path nuanced and meaningful when it comes to story and characters, so instead we gave you combat as a filler". Evil is more than just being a murderhobo. Durge is one but other characters not necessarily. Just compare Gortash and Orin - intelligent, cunning lawful evil vs psychotic, murderous chaotic evil. They only accounted for one type of play. Evil characters tend to gather followers and even worshippers. Someone new wanting to join evil Tav and alternative plot as a result of your actions are not meaningless.They could have done something amazing like the 2nd Witcher did - you choose Iorveth or Roche and your story is completely different. They could have allowed you to ally with the cult properly, they could have given Gortash a bigger role, made the alliance valid and a possible ending, Nere could have become a companion if you helped him kill Balthazar. There were so many options but instead they chose the easy "just kill of everyone" route.

I agree.

That quote I posted leads me to think they expected the players who help Astarion to ascend to come to the conclusion that they have done the wrong thing, even though they might have done it for the right reason.
i.e. They wanted to help Astarion but they feel they have turned him into a monster.

In that particular context these kisses make sense. Tav would be experiencing buyer's remorse and regretting their decision.
Although considering what our characters are capable of, if they truly regretted enabling him to ascend, I'd expect them to try and kill A.Astarion rather than continue the romance.

Unfortunately, for players on an evil playthrough who decided to do the 'wrong thing' simply because they wanted to, Tav's reactions are completely wrong.
And the same goes for players who don't accept that helping Astarion ascend is an evil act and who have no issues with the changes to his personality.

There really isn't a clear moral choice when it comes to which path Astarion takes, and that was one of the things that made his story so compelling for me.
The alternatives to helping Astarion ascend are killing the 7,000 vampire spawn (I assume their souls still go to the Hells?) or releasing them on an unsuspecting Faerun.
It's disappointing to get such a satisfying and nuanced storyline only to have this patch put player reactions to A.Astarion on rails.