Larian Studios Forums Baldur's Gate III Baldur's Gate III - General Time for Larian to Surface

I'm always amazed how easily people accept bad quality and basically a broken product, when it is game. Imagine car companies would behave like Larian, selling you a car with features not working. Imagine a fix for the air condition would prevent you from locking the car, or use gears above 3, would you be like "they already produced it, I can't expect them to fix it"? Or imagine your online banking software being developed with the same quality in mind.

The very least Larian could and should do, is release an official statement that they acknowledge the problems, that they keep working on it and provide a rough schedule. Or just tweet "haha, thanks for the money, we are moving on". Honestly, I don't care anymore after 5 patches breaking more, than they fix and Larians priorities being like "oh lets move that tree a bit" or "someone is offended by Lae'zel, let's change her dialogue".

I think the bigger issue is that Larian's silence on what they're working on is causing legitimate strife in the fanbase. It's sparking debates that certain things that were promised to us were never actually planned or were cancelled. A good example being how everyone right now is assuming the toolset has been cancelled due to a licensing issue with Wizards of the Coast. (Something there isn't a shred of proof of). This sort of thing just causes fights and arguments on Larian's social media as a result. It's really disappointing Larian can't just say "hey guys, been a while, here's the stuff in the pipe".

I'm not even asking for them to rush what they're working on and give it to us tomorrow. Just give us a heads up. That's all I ask.

My takeaway is that Larian rely on their community to hold them to a higher standard. It’s savvy on their part, but tiresome on our end. Thinking on what Larian proclaimed “ship ready” and “feature complete” during early access, I wonder what their games would look like if they never went through EA. D:OS3, Oops All Toggles?

Saying that the developers have no reason to continue supporting their product after release when that's the reason that games like Battle Brothers keep on growing and expanding is kind of disingenious.

Not only are there still many bugs to address (feats not working as intended, unarmed not counting as a weapon when it should, and so on...), Minthara and Halsin are clearly incomplete, Act 3 remains a technical and design mess, and the evil path might as well not exist.

As for the periods of silence during EA, them being broken by Larian throwing another party at a rented castle wasn't exactly what you'd want to hear. Maybe they should have used that budget elsewhere instead, hm?


If only they'd listen to that other part of their community which doesn't whine every day about Gortash/Orin not being breedable.

Harumph!

To Larian's credit, they've done an admirable job of balancing the wishes of disparate (able-bodied) audiences. And there's no denying their games have a charm that makes players passionate in the first place. I don't begrudge any segment of gamers for providing feedback or Larian for taking it into account.

Fair point ^^

To me, it's worthwhile to ask where the genius is in BG3's design. Is the game's success driven by artistic vision? gameplay? something else?

I feel it's driven by a strong ability to give most players most of what they want. For example, Larian probably wouldn't have announced new legendary actions for honor mode had the point not been raised by the community. Fine. But then why did Larian feel honor mode was good enough when it was released? If they're actively counting on player dissatisfaction to create their games... That's not great, right?

On fifty-second thought, maybe it is pretty great. The number one goal for any game is for its players to enjoy it; working to improve player experience is an unadulterated good.

I might be subject to an adverse psychological effect where the possibility of change breeds dissatisfaction because what exists is constantly compared to what could be. For example, Solasta’s graphics never bothered me because they are what they are. Hand me a immutable product and I’ll take it as is; ask me to dream about what could be and everything will suddenly seem sub-optimal.

Back on this thread’s topic: Larian have surfaced with what looks like another substantial patch and Salo has been actively engaging in the forum. Thumbs up all around.

Larian releasing updates is nice. However I'd much prefer it if they were upfront with the community about what they're planning and working on. It ends up feeling like we're in the dark about everything they promised on giving us.

Imma drag it back to offtopic territory, but I had the same feeling after my first playthrough.
(And well, this topic probably needs a dedicated thread and so I'll try to keep it short (Although, I think I failed))

Nothing really feels consistent between the acts; Narratively, it's a bit of a mess where each Act feels like a different game. Difficulty and reactivity also drops off after Act 1 (Which, at this point, has been said to death on these forums).
And so, to me, it doesn't nail anything specific throughout and just kinda feels like a cRPG theme park with abit of dating sims thrown in.

Incidently, it's the lack of "artistic vision" that made me look into cut content or EA datamines for anything that might've hinted at their original plans. Unfortunately, didn't find much.


I kinda see this too and it doesn't fill me with much faith, especially when they rely on community feedback instead of internal QA for stuff like Legendary Actions/Honor Difficulty or plot inconsistencies.

The concept is good, I guess, the community gets exactly what they want from a game, but something about it feels off and I can't figure out why.
For small indies it works well to combine your vision with the communities, but for an experienced developer like Larian, they shouldn't need it.

So I hope they don't do EA for their next game, because doing so would set a bad standard for the industry that might be picked up by other AAA (or is it AAAA now?) companies.


I mean, I guess, but every game strives to be fun and I'd like to think that games should be more than just be fun (Even if "Fun" is a rather nebulous term).


For those that were here during EA, is this not status quo for Larian?
Afaik, it is and the worst part is that people seem to be fine with it and Larian sees no need to change given they won Community Support.

I know why they're operating this way as it gives them plausible deniability and maximum flexibility when it comes to their release strategy. It does come at the expense of customer satisfaction though so the end result needs to pay off majorly to justify the wait. I just wish they'd finally take a break from the awards circuit and give us a small look behind the curtain.

This has been standard for Larian throughout the development of BG3, and it's hard to imagine it changing.

It's definitely anxiety inducing I just wanna know if I can port DE_Dust2 into BG3 before I turn 60 >_<

Welcome to the definitive Early Access! Hehe

Legit though, this has been the main gripe and the main grouse pretty much from the getgo.

I've made my peace with it by now. It wasn't easy, but then I ended up really enjoying the game on release, so now I have no clue and they just get a pass for not trying to nickel and dime me on it. Perhaps it would have been a stronger game with a more currated beta, but they basically invited the world to watch over their shoulder the whole time, which is honestly kinda insane.

I think its forgivable that they keep their heads down, cause I don't know what else they'd do at this point. They did finally figure out a way to engage with their community by proxy, mainly via their artists and actors, though obviously only after the thing was released. It makes sense I suppose given things like NDAs. But honestly for all the heavy lifting the performers have done in the past 6 months, I kinda feel like Pitstop deserves their own BG3 splash loadscreen or something lol.

This also makes sense, because actors, artists, musicians, twitch streamers etc those peeps are used to interacting with fans and they have more tools at their disposal to engage with the fanbase in a way that's at least somewhat insulated and generally seems pretty positive. I don't know that the average developer would have that same skillset/experience or just the same sorts of institutional/industry norms to draw upon when dealing with say feedback or adoring crowds and all that. I mean you know what I mean right, with some guardrails there, to protect the principles and keep things sorta light and enthusiastic.

In my head canon there's probably like a d20 roll to determine who goes in and has to read the boards feedback, to then summarize and transmit 'what people are saying' to the Devs, in a way that's actually fruitful and conducive to a happy working environment. If I was in charge of the wizards tower I would not be all encouraging devs to wade in randomly, or to even read reviews that might stifle or put peeps in a dour mood. I think they'd go elsewhere for direct engagement probably.

That said I'm very happy that forums of any sort exist for this game. Forums, much like Discord or the Socials etc tend to be thwarted both by innactivity and overactivity at either extreme. But unlike say discord which is very useful for in-the-moment communication, forums retain a somewhat solid archival function. Like I can barely follow a discord thread from 24 hrs ago, let alone a conversation that's been ongoing for 4 years with half a million people, but forums remain somewhat easier to navigate without getting completely lost in the whirl. Plus they got that oldschool charm. I still think these boards could use a thorough upgrade though, and that might ameliorate the sense of 'hey, is it still happening?'

We need the mod workshop support and toolsets and whatnot, but feels like it's sorta all still in the oven right now, like still baking up the goods. I just want them to peek their head up and announce whatever Expansion type thing. Everyone talks about the Definitive Edition as being definitively in the works, but nobody has really said that outright. So they could legit just say that, and probably gets em another 6-12 months in the clear to just chip away at bugs and such, while the momemtum on that builds.

Just give us more Char creation type stuff and something to dream on. I'll stick around lol

Knock on thought

So because of the way EA was framed, I think the best analogy or cautionary advice would be something like...

Once you win the Academy award for Best Picture or Best Editing, that is a pretty clear signal to just call it and stop editing. This is the hardest thing to do, or to know when to do, really with any work of art or creative endeavor. This doesn't mean you can't make a "Directors cut" or a dozen director's cuts, but that's why those sorts of things release with different subtitles to differentiate them from the theatrical releases.

In short try to be Ridley Scott rather than George Lucas when it comes to this sort of stuff. Like recut Blade Runner till the end of time if you want, as long as the theatrical version still gets to exist somewhere. Star Wars the motion picture (1977) by contrast, no longer exists in a way that can be experienced by the average viewer, because it's been altered so many times.

I think cinema is a better analog here than say a stage play or improv, because the audience expections are rather different going into those experiences. When I go to see a play part of the appeal is that something perhaps unexpected or unique might occur in each performance, because it's live.

A film is different, the viewer does not expect little things to change on repeat viewing or to be surprised in that way. Even a very slight alteration in sequence or sound or musical accompaniment can change the pacing and overall vibe and leave the viewer scratching their head like 'why did they change that?' You know, cause perhaps they liked the first version better.

Likewise, if I go to see a Broadway revival (something I can't actually afford to do, but just indulge me) I wouldn't expect to see the exact same thing people saw the first time around. But if I got to watch a classic film, I do expect that, and it's kinda the whole point of cinema. Clearly a cRPG is not cinema or theater or stand up comedy, it's something categorically different, but I think the same sorts of analogies may hold.

For another familiar example, the LotR films vs their Extended Editions. Return of the King won best picture and it has it's own separate DvD. Now I might just always watch the extended versions of these flicks cause I think they're interesting, but if they mucked those up, at least those Extended versions would exist on a separate disc. The one doesn't supercede or replace the other, instead they both get to live alongside one another.

If it's purely additive then I'm more positively disposed towards the whole enterprise. If it tries for a do-over or to sweep the earlier thing under the rug I find that annoying. Especially if the thing I fell in love with managed to blockbust and worm it's way into the collective imagination to become a cultural phenomenon. You just can't pull a fast one when the thing's already been seen by millions of people. There's no backsies there. Literally everyone will notice and scrutinize every single change, and just refuse to ever let it go lol.

On the upside, because this is a game, there are more options available to us, because unlike a movie or a play, here we have those dialogue branches baked-in. Instead of replacing a given scene with a redux, they can add another dialogue entry to the list, and do it that way. This would be my strong preferance, because the alterations are less disruptive and there's more flexibility. At some point though, the dress rehearsal has to give way to the real deal, and for a typical game that would be when you start selling tickets at the box office right? But I think they got a bit too used to an Early access vibe.

I also take the point about cars not working, currently I got a busted alternator in my whip, so I feel that lol. Though I think that analogy is a bit reaching. I mean this isn't an automobile or a new computer that cost someone potentially thousands of dollars just for the ticket to ride. We're not going to fly off the freeway into a ditch if the brakes suddenly fail here.

A better analogy is probably something like, trying to get your ticket at will-call for some kind of festival concert, only to find out at the door that they switched the lineup or set list at the last minute. The band you specifically came to hear play got moved to a different stage and now there's issues. But then other people are just happy to be there, like chillin' out on the lawn with an overpriced margherita, cause they knew going in that it might be part of the dice roll. But again, if this is Frampton Comes Alive and they cut a record during that show, we don't break the master and re-record it right? You want em to feel like you 'did' in that case hehe

Ok ok just a ramble, but I think there's a lesson in there somewhere, maybe.

I have come to more or less the same conclusion. Well said.

OK well as long as we're coming to conclusion, I also would like to drop one more cautionary tale. So there was a game in 1998 called Baldur's Gate, and it had a certain art direction that I really love. Time was, I could get that game on Steam and just play it the way it was. It took some figuring but basically it was about as simple as downloading a hotfix or running the thing in an older version of windows. Able to experience the thing exactly as I remembered it when I first fell in love with it. Fast forward a bit in time and now trying to do that same thing, I'm instantly confronted with a bunch of stuff I find disagreeable that was added in like a dozen years later. For one very particular example, there are portraits included in the default set by an artist who I just don't dig at all.. Like we shouldn't go into it overmuch cause it makes me hella bitter, but the point is that those images were never there in the original game BG and Tales of the Sword Coast or any of the original BG 2 ToB titles. It was added way later. Legit stresses me out to see stuff by that guy suddenly appear in my all time favorite game, like every single time I want to roll up a new character? Gotta see that? No thanks. I have to play BG1/2 on GoG now and jump through a bunch of extra hoops just to avoid that. It's such a chore to just do what used to be easy to do and fire up the OG Baldur's Gate games. Or at least the OG BG2 and then run BG1 through that engine. With the BG1 and BG2 discs I am able to recreate the experience I remember so fondly. Currently there is no convenient way to do this in 2024 through Steam. I can only play the EEs there, but those games have an entirely different art direction and substantives changes were made to the storyline that go well beyond QoL in my view.

They're just not the games from 1998-2000 that I fell in love with. These used to be available, but later got pulled in their vanilla state to be replaced by the Enhanced things. It's debatable for me whether playing BG1 using the BG2 engine would even qualify as a classic experience of the original game, but it was pretty cool, cause at least that was a completely free effort by the modding community. When we made the BG1 NPC project and the peeps who did Sword Coast Stratagems and such, nobody was out there trying to milk a cash cow on it, you know what I mean. The Weidu mods were just not the same thing as the reduxed enhancements which ultimately copied and replaced them and charged another dime for that. Just kinda annoys me that the whole thing went so far beyond restoration or re-mastery into a full on reboot. Some people would probably want to check those Vanilla games out now, because of BG3 and all, more from a sense of historical curiosity, but the OG game is sorta lost to the mists of time now. That leaves me feeling a bit bitter. In an ideal universe peeps would have both, and then we could look back on them and learn what was, cause it's like a time capsule and a moment in time. It's enjoyable to return to the familiar that way.

I just think for BG3 they might keep that in mind, as a thing that can happen. Frankly I wish Larian had acquired the rights to the previous titles when they got the License for the sequel, cause I feel like their art direction would have been much stronger for a remaster focused on restoration, but that ship sailed long ago I suppose.

Larian has been more willing to go back and revise their older titles than a lot of other studios. You can see it with Divinity 2 where the game had continuous updates and further development years after launch. The version you can buy on Steam/GOG today is actually a 2012 re-release of the game and not the original 2009 version. You can also see this with DOS1 and DOS2. Where they released continuous updates years after launch.

A big reason for this is because Larian self publishes all of their games so they're not bound by licensing contracts like other studios would be. Larian is also more willing to preserve their older titles than a lot of other studios as they let you downgrade to prior versions if you really want to.
There's a very big reason for this. The re-release of Baldur's Gate 1/2 that exists on GOG/Steam today is not Bioware's original game. It's a remaster created by another studio named Beamdog. Bioware hasn't been involved with these games since their release 20 years ago. Beamdog chose to modify the games considerably and they also chose to make divisive story adjustments nobody asked for. Such as adding in new party members nobody likes, and completely replacing the original FMV cutscenes with lame 2D animated ones.
I somewhat doubt Larian has the staff to remaster older titles that were made by another studio altogether. It would be more logical to outright remake the first two games which is unlikely to happen due to how massive they were. According to Larian they wanted to make Baldur's Gate 3 as far back as when they finished Divinity Original Sin 1 but Wizards of the Coast refused to give them the license. It wasn't until DOS2 that they were able to get the license to make BG3.

Yeah that's it! That's were I was trying to head before I started getting distracted and mildly heated thinking back on it. Goodness I'm such a rambler over here heheh.

It's pretty wild how BG3 has become like some kind of therapist for helping me to unpack certain things or certain feelings I have about the BG legacy. It's amazing how far a little humanity can take me on that front I guess lol.

This is the first time in maybe 2 decades that installing BG1 wasn't the very first thing I did when I got a new computer. This time it was BG3. What motivated me to finally reinstall BG1 was a portrait of Jaheira I saw among the BG3 fanart images for BG3 Jaheira, and it was so cool looking! They did a BG2 version as well for a variant. I just thought it was one of the best Jaheira's I'd seen. Like legit just kinda the perfect portrait. That's a portrait for the ages! I love it!

I thought to myself, 'why couldn't it have been portraits like these for the BG1 remaster, with like all that heart and attention to detail!?'

But then of course I realized only lately like 'oh damn, no optical disc drive anymore on this computer I just bought to play BG3!' Lol. So when I went to reinstall the other one that I still had in my steam library this morning it was all top of mind. It annoyed me that no matter what I did I couldn't mod out some of the things I thought were pretty janky with whatever additions came out in the aughts or early 2010s. I don't mind the NPCs so much, or the actual interlude campaign since that's a stand alone thing. It's more the stuff like the art direction or the soundwork or incogruities there that grate on me. The tiniest deep cuts somehow sting worse for me there, cause like the skeleton in the Last Unicorn, even if I can't drink the wine anymore, I can still remember! Hehe

I spent too much time playing Pillars and Pathfinder at that time to really keep tabs on what was happening with BG1/2. I was just playing with TuTu and weidu with BG1, and totally content with that experience or the vanilla BG1, but then just found it pretty frustrating today how the good old BG1 and BG2 titles were so hard to hunt down now. I don't want to knock the idea of reboots entirely, cause some work much better than others for me. Also there is much I appreciate in the actual QoL, but it's all bundled up with other stuff and so pretty hard to disentangle. The nostalgia factor weighs heavily, as the thing I'm after now is something more like a criterion collection or a preservation angle, basically cause I think it's a cultural artifact of a sort. One that was particularly meaningful to me growing up, so it has that special place in the heart.

I think BG3 is doing something like that right now for a new crop of BG players and many returning long time fans too. What came out of 2020 and Early Access is just special in a way that makes it a watershed and momentous. I'd like it to simultaneously continue but also to give some nods to mods, by offering the completed thing as complete. So pretty much the Discs, but then I think what I like most is that idea of 'downgraded if you want', and still being able to access earlier versions of the game somehow, if substantial additions are made later on. Why I still prefer the Expansion idea, cause then its easier to underline say a 2024 version alongside whatever might come afterwards in the future.

Anyhow, I get a little overenthusiastic, a bit animated and impassioned when it comes to the earlier games so I'm trying not to get too hung up on conversations for yesteryear, but I do think there's something to that whole idea of preserving the thing for posterity in a way that's loving. Larian doesn't have any real obligation to harmonize the BG3 with the BG1/2 cause it's something more than just a sequel for me now, it now has the mantle for me, inheritor of the BG legacy, but I dig that they put that promise of a box with a disc up on their page. That sort of thing still speaks to me. Especially in an era where things get pulled and dust binned over stuff like royalties and residuals or everything on stream/online but only there. I'm just not familiar enough with how Larian does things in the after action, but so far I have more confidence in them to at least take it under consideration, since like you say their hands aren't tied in the way some other studios might be, at least regarding their own games.

Who knows I guess, but fingers crossed! I'm still pretty stoked over here that they are working on stuff.

I wonder how tolerant all these Larian apologists would be if the company involved was Microsoft.

IIRC Larian only started posting news of hotfix and patch releases here on their official website after several complaints from members here.

Owlcat keep their users informed of when a hotfix/patch is coming and give a general idea of what it will be addressing.

They released a major patch yesterday (19th) so the news page has been updated. And note that they also managed to get PC, Mac and the two console versions out at the same time. Oh, and they added some more voice acting unannounced.

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This list was last updated: February 19, 2024

PC and Mac version: 1.1.28 (last updated February 19, 2024)
PS5 version: last updated February 19, 2024
Xbox version: last updated February 19, 2024

Next Patch ETA:

Major patch 1.1 is live! https://roguetrader.owlcat.games/news/en/32

We'll need some time to gather new reports and feedback.

PC and Mac: -To be added-;
PS5: -To be added-;
Xbox: -To be added-;

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https://steamcommunity.com/app/2186680/discussions/0/4027970580228219058/

WH40KRT released on 7th December and has had 8 patches and 7 hotfixes. The game-breaking bugs were dealt with in the first couple of weeks. The rest of the patches and hotfixes have largely dealt with minor bugs, QoL, item descriptions, etc.

Hehe probably less? That would be my guess, but then we've had many years to get used to being annoyed by rogue things Microsoft does. Also since these BG3 patches are about as large as Windows updates now and probably cause a similar sense of dread like 'damn, hopefully my ssd is still large enough for this!?' Not sure if that was mainly for me, but I'll bite I guess.

Owlcat gets a fair amount of love here though, don't they? I spent more time playing WotR during the BG3 EA than I did playing BG3. I think it's reasonably well understood that a lot of returning BG1/2 players have gravitated towards the Pathfinder series for good reasons. I also enjoyed Pillars for similar reasons, cause they felt so much like home. If someone told me they really liked the gameplay mechanics and overall vibe of BG1 and BG2 and were looking for something new to scratch that itch, I'd direct them to Pathfinder for sure.

It is in every way the answer to what a modern take on a BG2 might look like, sans the FR setting. Even uses a version of 'D&D' that's more familiar if coming straight out of those games. It has everything I'd want from that with the exception of the D&D/FR/BG branding. Even has the party of 6, padmapping, the portraits and some pretty fantastic art direction and talent behind it too, including many familiar voices! In my mind Kingmaker/WotR is the current spiritual successor to the Infinity games.

If someone's era/backcalatog was more Dragon Age Origins and they were looking to scratch that particular itch, I'd probably point them to this game, just cause it's got a very similar feel and overall style of play.

If the aim was to learn 5e and get into something RAW probably would point to Tactical Adventures.

What's amusing to me is that I've been playing BG games continously since highschool, but in later life I only discovered Owlcat via BG3 boards. I also only first heard about Solasta here. Like I might have slept on both those titles completely were it not for the sudden uptick in interest for this one. Sometimes it presents like some kind of turf war between these titles, but I'm still over here marvelling at my luck that such games even exist for me to enjoy these days. I never really had to kiss anything goodbye cause somehow there was a revival!? Love it! Never thought they might catch fire again like that, but then they totally did.

Still, I get the frustration. Threads like this one are more about the players and what the players are feelin' at the moment, cause we kinda know by now right, that we get the silent treatment a lot. Sometimes I will read the little Gazette page cause I like how it looks if trying to read between the lines and parse things out. I'd kick it on discord maybe instead of here, but it's tough on my ADHD. Why I like the oldschool vibe with a forums tree, cause they're just a lot easier for me to navigate and play catch up or stay abreast of the latest news. I can't stand twitter ever since it got ruined, reddit is all over the place, the socials are a grind, games journalism is a recyclotron mostly etc. It all feels pretty decentralized and sorta disjointed. This is the place I'd prefer to get those sorts of deets.

Anyhow I told myself I'd try not to ramble too hard, but of course always do. BG3 still greatly appeals to me and I'm still shocked how it got me so good, cause I didn't really expect that to happen. That said, I think they could harness their community a bit more, with a more bespoke and curated form of Early Access with roadmaps and timelines and such. But then what do I know really lol. I'm only on one side of the glass here, and have to guess at how things might have looked otherwise.