Larian Studios Forums Baldur's Gate III Baldur's Gate III - Suggestions & Feedback Astarion romance improvements

And then there are the people who just love RPGs and play "immersive" (in the case of Astarion romance, these are mostly women). Who were genuinely drawn to the character while playing the game naturally, playing without spoilers, and without even knowing anything about him beforehand. Who helped him ascended simply because he wants to and it really is his path, simply understanding Astarion and wanting only the best for him. Just sincere roleplay... Let's say, not tuning in specifically to the "evil" roleplay, but changing the alignment in the course of the game, naturally, as in life, because this game is realistic and the principles of "do good and you'll be happy" don't work, which, in general, I really liked. But it feels like the writers are only interested in those players who treat the game and the characters living in it as sex shop items, choosing based on "sexual preferences". Those who want to live in the game and see and create a deep and sincere story are not perceived as an audience.


Yes, the circus is on point, unequivocally. When your Tav - the person who loved Astarion more than anything else in the world and wanted only one thing - that Astarion would never be hurt again in this world, and Astarion, who for the first time trusted someone, who for the first time started to smile sincerely next to this person, who was able to spread his wings, open up and become himself next to Tav - this mimicry is perfect for such a couple.

I've never been interested in romancing Astarion, but the Ascended kiss interactions actually made me curious to try it out.
Good writing is not always convenient writing.

Thank you for making this picture, I love your Humour It shows exactly how ridiculous Tav's pissed-off and scared faces are.

Yeah, something was TRULY in their air-fresheners! But I am not so sure, if it was healthy.. ... ...

Sadly, I can't modify the OP post to scratch off the stuff that was fixed - a quirk of these forums. These suggestions are from November last year.

He behaves differently in the Haarlep scene now?

Yes, we talked about the point 12 and there is a video of the banter somewhere in there, but I meant actual dialogues - like with Karlach. Why is no one saying anything to Tav's face? It's weird.

I've posted the video related to point 10 already. Can you put it in the spoiler, because it's very large?


Glad you're enjoying my creative endeavors. It's so bad I had to make fun of it.

Then why does it look like that? I'm not claiming that the Larians hired someone to do this, that's just a guess, just because that's what it looks like. It looks like that kind of content, not like Astarion and Tav kissing.


Couldn't they then convey to us WHY Astarion is abusing us? I would still understand if Astarion suddenly became more evil and takes control of Tav who wants to leave him (though, in the script he doesn't do that). What's the point of doing that to Tav, who loves and understands him, when they haven't had a single fight or anything even remotely resembling a quarrel in the entire game?


What was clear? Everything was clear to me before patch 6, and the story was very clear to me. Now it's not clear to me at all.


Yes, that's exactly what it's supposed to be. And all of Astarion's lines in loving treatment coincide with that.

A lord who values prestige and status kneels for kiss his Constort in the midst of Baldur's Gate.
A Tav who sent 7k souls to hell for one man's power. And press yes a few times. Makes a doe face.
When it's literally fanservice, for Valentine's Day, it's not convenient?
If only because the knees work right after the ritual is complete, not a bed scene where this is played up. No sense.
This is not a good writing.
It's a very good scandal that gets attention. It's done.

upd Well Atarion's animations might not be bad, but everything else falls apart

You may be disappointed. Ignoring the fact that Tav's response is a huge turn off for some of us, Astarion's attitude in those animations isn't seen elsewhere in the game; it's very much out of character. Astarion's personality does become more domineering but it's clear he still cares for Tav and that Tav has autonomy within the relationship. eg: Tav can still break up with him.
If you are looking for a 'romance' relationship story with Tav and a sadistic vampire who controls them against their will, you aren't going to get it.

It doesn't look like sadistic porn. It looks like abuse, because that was their intent when making the animations. Not saying I agree with the Tav faces, just saying what the intent clearly was.

They conveyed why Astarion (or that version of Astarion, rather) is abusive or will become abusive plenty already in the game itself but that's a circular and pointless argument to have if I've ever heard one, I will say the story is still very clear to me at least, this patch has changed nothing for me. The narrative is painfully unsubtle, to the writing's detriment at times. It's a very well done depiction of an abusive person though, including one of the telltale abuser's technique of lovebombing (his fake sounding over-the-top sweet-nothings, basically) and everything. Nothing about his characterisation has changed.

We're just discussing the kisses (and mostly the Tav faces, really, which is a complaint I agree with, though I have some caveats about some arguments that have popped up regarding why they shouldn't be there) but I'm just throwing my two cents here because I don't want the most narratively interesting arc I've played in an RPG (Ascended Astarion) to be made bland, meaningless, and stripped of its themes for the sake of fitting the dating sim or mafia boss booktok wish fulfilment mold which it was never meant to fit into. I like that his characterisation extends into his romance as well. It's consistent and coherent. That shouldn't change. (And it hasn't, so far)

Because they had to animate more than 24 new kiss animations and probably went a little overboard with the ones that were a bit out of the ordinary, meaning not cute and nice.

Why explain that it will become abusive? Here's what I don't understand. I personally don't need.
And why is it psychology in general, the dude gets high from killing and drinking blood. It's pretty clear he's insane.
Doesn't mean he can't be gentle since he was before.

Then I am not really sure what you are arguing against because most of the discussion circles around Tav's faces/reaction and not Astarion's behaviour. Though I'm interested in your caveats.

No one is asking for changes to Astarion.


Would the whole story become bland and meaningless if Tav had a more neutral face in the kisses? Because that's all that's been asked here. Tav is obviously not miserable in the epilogue (you can choose all the evil power couple choices in the dialogue and the worst that happens is Astarion feeding you some of his favourite lines again and creepily telling you that he is watching you). Why should Tav be miserable before that? It's inconsistent storytelling. TAV's reaction to the kisses do not fit into the narrative at that point in the story (they might fit in the far away future, but that's not something we'll see).

I ask, actually. Gentle abusive possessiveness in narcissistic obsession vampire.
The kissing dynamic is too similar.

I stand corrected then in that regard. Though from what I gathered it's that most people are ok with the kisses, but not Tav's facial expressions.

@Veranis I'm arguing against the idea that there's a fetishistic intent behind the animations. It's nitpicky since it actually isn't really relevant to the discussion, I'll admit, but rumours start that way and I don't like that kind of stuff being spread.
Also, yes. There are people asking for changes to Astarion or claiming he's OOC in this very thread, and I've seen a few people very vehemently express this idea online as well.

Evidently, the epilogue would remain the same, as I said it's not about the kisses, so we agree on that. (Although, Tav very much has the potential to express that they're miserable, and I don't think it'd have to be the far away future for Astarion to display those tendencies, considering he refuses to let you go in the ending if you ask to break up and that's what, a week after the ritual?.)

My caveats are about a couple of ideas that have popped up while arguing why Tav shouldn't look upset which I don't think hold a lot of water for this specific scenario when applied to the long run (not right now, per se, just as general ideas as to why they shouldn't be upset). I'm not super serious about it though since I assume people aren't conveying all the nuances of what they want to say there, but one sentiment I see a lot is "why would my Tav be displeased? They're super evil" when evil people can very much still be abused (for this one, I assume they might be talking about something else when they say this, IDK). Now, if they're into all that's been presented so far that's another story (Another somewhat unrelated argument I've seen is "you can picture it as abusive if you pick those options, but I pick the right ones so it's a healthy relationship!" which is flawed because if you need to constantly please someone and be under their thumb so they don't lash out that's still abusive, and realistically eventually Tav's going to slip up or Astarion is going to grow harder to please)
My other caveat is the idea that the upset faces are nonsensical because "Why would Tav just take it and kneel if they're upset? They can still break up!" Granted, being able to break up makes for a big difference than after he gains the ability to compel you, but in real life plenty of people stay and withstand abusive situations even when they can leave. Emotional manipulation (and the love you can have for someone) can have a bigger hold on you than you'd expect, even when having the means to escape that situation. Leaving an abusive relationship isn't that easy, so I find someone staying and obeying throughout abusive displays to be very doable, and in fact true to life.

This is basically the summary of all the discussion that's taking place regarding those kisses.
That is all I'm asking for along with most of the not impressed group voicing their concerns.

It's immersion breaking I'm 8 characters created so hitting probably around the 300-400 hour mark and Ascended Astarion is my Dark Urge companion only and she isn't on the Bhaalspawn redemption path I've literally just allied with Gortash when that update came in I am taking that chosen path for this round I'm well worse that Ascended Astarion and being forced on my knees if I ask him for a single kiss is not the right narrative choice at all to that chosen path currently .
This victim look would be a never going to happen because evil ending scenario it may with redemption urge if you dont turn into a murder zombie.

(I'm annoyed with the Tav faces and repeating myself but that's how much I love this game)

But it actually IS a fetish for people with sadistic personality disorder, how Tav is portrayed here. So they need to change that. That's what we are asking for. What are you afraid of?
Are you okay with such things? Our tavs being portrayed as a soulless sexdoll? If you don't realize it, this is not our problem. A lot of players see it like that and feel very uncomfortable and sick. I can only shake my head at such a lack of empathy.

People with a sadistic disorder but get arroused by seeing abuse. So for them it IS porn. Does something like this have to be implemented into the game where women(and men) are depicted being abused in a kiss, meant for pleasing AA players (and also SM Lovers) and not people who have a real dangerous disorder?

I also think it's stupid at the very least. Even a really evil sadist wouldn't do that, it ruins the reputation a lot.


By the way, about the doe face. I replayed the Abdirak scene for the sake of Tav's facial expressions in that scene - at first Tav looks a bit scared, but as soon as you choose Intimidation, Tav's facial expression changes - no fear anymore! I remembered my Tav looking cool in this scene - like a dangerous person who clearly shouldn't cross the road, not at all like a victim, and it stayed that way.


If you don't kiss him, everything is still the same, Astarion's attitude towards Tav is loving, nothing has changed.


If something looks like a duck, quacks like a duck, what if it is a duck? If an animator decided to be inspired by such content for the purpose of insults, then that's his idea of abuse. You can make games for the purpose of insulting the player, but it has to be its own special genre.


I went through the game, in game, it's not explained. Only AA haters explain, based on their headcanons. Maybe somewhere in some interview, someone explained it, but not in the game.


I understand you and you may have your own tastes, and it's good that you were able to enjoy it. But most players protest against it. Of course, if these scenes are already done, it would be worth keeping them in the game to satisfy the tastes of a different audience of players, just need to make another line as well, give the option to choose. Players who value story, plot and character personality shouldn't be disadvantaged either.

It's a videogame. It's not real. What would you say if I said "A lot of players sacrifice 7000 spawn and condemn them to eternal torture and I can only shake my head at such a lack of empathy. Are you ok with such things?"? We are okay with mass murder and eternal torment but we draw the line at abuse? Engaging with dark stories shouldn't be used as an indicator for your own real life morals, I would have thought an Ascended Astarion thread would understand that. Mind you, I understand people being triggered or affected by it, but stories have a right to explore these topics. Some people are triggered by spiders, and I don't think that means we should get rid of spider enemies in games.
Tav is portrayed as a victim, despite whether you disagree with the idea or not. The idea that it's for fetish purposes is employing a lot of mental gymnastics when there's a much simpler and coherent answer. As you said, if you don't realise the story they're trying to convey, that is not my problem.

I don't think a healthy proper relationship is what Astarion is strong at.
Tav picks a vampire who likes murder, power, control and gives him everything. Because Tav is evil and wild like him, so she doesn't care what kind of thing Astarion does - in most cases. Tavs who choose Lord Astarion and say "yes" multiple times don't think about a healthy relationship at all. Evil in that sense.

I can turn on a 15+ Japanese romance where I am clearly told and shown that all is well and will be well, these two vampires love each other, care for each other and will not let each other go. She is not his equal and can't leave, but he is into that too. They have a special, unique bond forever, enjoy. 15+
Not because it's for little ones, because complex Dark Romances with love-obsession are for adults. It's for little ones where they're taught what's right\good\health and "wrong", "don't do".
And in already 15+ people are considered savvy in Japan.

You understand just nothing, it is not the empathy with what is in the game, but empathy with the Player and the victims of abuse I was talking about in REALLIFE.