Larian Studios Forums Baldur's Gate III Baldur's Gate III - Suggestions & Feedback Astarion romance improvements

For everyone who has a complaints about the new kisses of AAstarion or spawn Astarion, you can compile this survey! The results of the answers will then be sent to Larian Studios
Here the link: http://t.ly/pnYBh

1. "Looks like a duck, quacks like a duck" could easily be applied to the much simpler idea that the story about the cycle of abuse is depicting abuse, rather than Larian studying "3D sadistic porn" for these purposes.I hate saying cycle of abuse because it's so mindlessly repeated like a mantra and people refuse to go beyond that surface analysis, but it is what it is. The game isn't subtle about it. There's Vellioth's skull, there's Spawn Astarion directly saying that we've broken the "cycle of violence and terror". It can't be more spelled out. In fact the scene with Astarion saying that strikes me as really badly written because he basically looks into the camera and says "This was about the cycle of abuse" which is goofishly blunt and not how a real person would talk. But it's very much there. And again, I repeat that we need to stop feeling like the game is personally trying to victimise us for telling its story.

2. This is the mother of all circular arguments, since I assume there's no point to repeating all the several instances where it's made abundantly clear that this is the point of his story and not just headcanons, I'd just recommend you look at the devnotes I posted a few pages earlier on this thread, since they even spell it out (devnotes are the writer's instructions for Neil when he has to record the lines)

3. I think you might have thought I like this route for sexual reasons...? I like it because I value story, plot and character personality. The idea that AAstarion should be changed (not Tav, but AAstarion) undermines all these, and seems more to be in favour of wish fulfilment for players looking for a flustering bad boy romance rather than coherent characterisation.

I didn't like the expressions either. My tav willingly helped with the ritual, accepted to become a spawn/bride/groom, knelt down and was happy. Whoever makes Astarion's AC ending wanted him to become that way and is happy with it.
My tav was always obsessed with Astarion, so he could always be smiling when Astarion went to kiss him, even if he had to kneel or the other options. I believe that, what would happen outside of the game scenes, my tav would always willingly kneel down, especially to do other things while licking his own lips in the process...If you understand what I mean hehe

My tav would always make this kind of expression when Astarion made him kneel, held him by the neck or bit his lip.

Then the game also lacks empathy for the relatives of murder victims, people with religious trauma, victims of sexual trafficking (Astarion's story), victims of incest (Orin, Sarevok and her mom) victims of grooming (Gale), etc etc.
Players can be triggered and hurt by plenty, and I mean plenty of things, we can't dictate stories based on that parameter. I have very serious triggers that appear in this game and I would never try to blame the writers for it, that's my own burden to deal with.

Btw, not cool to assume you're not talking to a victim of abuse.

When this will be send?

We should also do something like this to have the change in appearance when transforming into spawn, like the change we have when using the astral tadpole. At least the fangs.

The biggest toxic myth on the planet is that someone will fix because of the power of love and support. (especially Astarion, who literally gets a high from killing) So Astarion attacks Tav if they choose a wrong way to stop the ritual. And here is a F8 button and the Fantasy story continues. But the Ascension discussion takes on almost all the fire. For some complex reason... "It must be awful, it must-angst it must-abuse" No, what's Spawn End supposed to be if the Ascended End is supposed to be something?
By killing in the kitchen, "I could have had it all, bitch, but you're the reason I stayed in that hole and didn't go to that colle-- and didn't do the ritual!" Do we need this discussion?

For all Tavs who choose Lord Astarion and want to give autonomy to a Astarion - trigger if they are forcibly made a victim.
But we've already discussed that victim-Tav literally doesn't fit the stories. For many reasons. For this reason, the research is the "Abuse Theme" from Vampire Lord Astarion is almost pointless.

Thank you for your answer and yes, I agree with you that there shouldn't be changes to Astarion.


Yes, they have the potential, but it is a choice I as the player can make - is my Tav/Durge miserable or not? I have one that is and one that isn't and the epilogue thankfully let's me play both. In the kisses I suddenly don't have a choice anymore. Tav is miserable. Period. (no argument about his controlling tendencies here, the "you'll be wonderfully obedient anyway"-line is not very subtle for example)


I guess that is what they mean - they are playing a character that's evil and knows what they are getting into and enjoys it.



Again, I agree, the choices you make do not change the dynamic of the relationship/story, just how your character perceives them/reacts to them.

I've written about that a few posts back and while I totally agree, it is exactly what is wrong with the facial animations at this stage of the story. Just as you explained - Tav acts like someone who has been abused over a long period of time and been systematically broken down until they have no will of their own anymore and don't dare to leave even if they could. This cannot be the case (yet). They are still at the beginning of the relationship and at this part of the story all have still their tadpoles (no compulsion possible, which could force them literally to stay). So, beside the fact that showing this behaviour can be very triggering for some, it does not make any sense as part of the ongoing narrative either.

Thanks for sharing your viewpoint, I think we're overall in agreement about what the story represents. Personally, I don't want AA changed, I just want the horrible facial animations gone.

There's a concept of realism in video games. Not reality, but realistic. For starters, those 7000 spawns will be killing innocent Baldur citizens, and a "good" hero can also kill those 7000 without ascending Astarion for that very reason. And speaking of empathy, a lack of empathy for someone outsider is in no way correlated with a lack of empathy for the person closest to you, much less the person you've been through all of this with. It is NOT realistic. And in a huge number of movies, books, the relationship of an evil couple is shown realistically. Where is the sadistic porn shown in Joker and Harley Quinn's relationship? Where does Harley have the eyes of a victim? Is the Joker much kinder than Lord Astarion, sympathizing with everyone?


There is a huge difference for a person with empathy to perceive between some victims in the story of the game, and specific shots where we are shown a video of the rapist abusing the victim, in detail, with all the facial expressions of the victim of sadistic content. Also, at no point in the game's storyline does Astarion take control of Tav, only and exclusively in these scenes. Irritation at spiders is an individual phobia, and not wanting to see scenes of sexual violence is something that is inherent in far more people.


No mental gymnastics required, just watch two videos - this one and the "she's controlled" porn content video. That's it. The difference would be that the kissing is foreplay without continuation, the difference would be the quality of the graphics and animation. The victim's facial expressions and the victim's body language is what is important in these kinds of videos perfectly.


Please provide specific facts from the game, story-wise, from which such content would logically follow. Make it clear.

To me Tav looking horrified in the kiss makes perfect sense. Not for ever Tav, but even for evil ones I can see it timing perfectly. It just represents a Tav that fell for the most classic of evil flaws; hubris. They believed they would be his equal, they would be special, they would be the exception, safe from his manipulations and abuse. All of the benefits, none of the consequences. Then they realize they were wrong, they were outplayed, and it's too late to turn back.

This is just one of the problems with role-playing in his game. The cinematic nature and necessity of expressions means players are never going to be able to rely on the game letting them give their Tav the nuances they should have, and so their roleplay is limited even more than in other games of this genre.

@Veranis I see. I understand your point about it being too early, I think we agree on everything and it's just semantics lol. I just disliked that idea being thrown around that if you can physically leave, you should be able to escape that situation.

Somewhat unrelated but something I've been thinking about is how a lot of parallels could be made for Tav x AAstarion and Joker x Harley Quinn. Depending on the comic/timeline the writers explore different dynamics that reflect the whole spectrum of the relationships people want to roleplay in the game, I think.

The bride/groom part was explained in the Monster Guide, the Vampire Guide, as well as other books that are now out of print from when they had their "horror" aspect of the game (which Baulder's Gate in on one of those planets, Talin.) [BTW, I have these books sitting right beside me & telling you what they state] In the Ravenloft/Greyhawk/Planescape/Talin spheres, where...to be honest....vampires are rare. Wizards of the Coast (DnD) never updated the rules for them because they still work for even 5e campaigns. Now, where many people divide is how it seems that Larian is going with not only JUST 5e rules but a little of their own homebrew to make the game work in a video game setting. Larian is also treating Ascended Astarion EXACTLY like a true vampire that can walk in the sun & can have sex because True Vampires can not walk in the sun nor have sex. And there is supposedly only either a good path or an evil path. There are no shades of gray. Which, in my opinion, some of their writing has lots of gray, but I am just trying to explain why a lot of people are upset. SO PLEASE DO NOT COME FOR ME!!! I am just trying to explain this all.

Firstly, with vampires...there is no such thing as "spawn". There are fledgling vampires (what Larian is calling spawn) and their masters (older vampires and they are calling them the "master" vampires). For a master vampire to control his/her fledglings, they usually terrorize them to the point that they are so extremely frightened of their master due to beatings/terror/torture/starvation/punishment/etc. etc. so they can keep them only focused on that instead of feeding on "thinking creatures" which would instead make them "happy" (and if they go too far, they would then create more spawn themselves instead). If they are happy, their "powers" manifest & they learn that the older they get, the more powerful they become. It then becomes a natural procession of a vampire, if they were taught this way instead of having extreme torturous control over them but then they would probably rise up if they didn't like the way the "master" vampire was leading them & then would kill them (which as Cazador's story & Astarion's story shows, they always end up doing it anyways).

So now we come to the bride/groom ritual. Which, for the most part, is how they animated the sex scene before Astarion turns Tav. Usually a "true vampire" has to be 400+ years old at the very least to be powerful enough to do this. The other "master" vampires think that this is a weakness if a "master" vampire does this. And they turn it into a war against the bride's creator. The bride (I am just going to use the term bride instead of typing bride/groom, but know I mean no offense to anyone, it is meant as a genderless term...just as the manuals do) is bitten at least 3 times, whereas the third bite is where the last of the blood is taken. The "master" then opens his own neck & allows their bride to feed from them. He must be strong enough to pull their bride away in order to not give her too much of his blood because it will kill the master and the bride will go crazy. So Astarion also states that he gave only one drop, which I don't know how you can only get one drop of blood from either his neck or heart, but ok Larian. (Astarion is lying, as usual). The bride's turn would be euphoric & happen in a matter of hours. If he just wanted a fledgling (spawn) then no blood is required and all he would need to do is bury their fledgling (which has the painful severe turning as he explains when he is turned) and then when they wake up (which takes a day or more), they have to usually get themselves out of the coffin & claw their way out of the dirt. So, the master does all of this to make the change euphoric for the bride and must be able to know just how much blood to give to not make the bride a broken that will act like a feral beast (kinda like the DUrge if they didn't follow what Bhaal said, & get the ending of which some of you know what I speak, it is on YouTube if you want to watch a bad DUrge ending). If the "master" did all this correctly, the master & bride now share a telepathic link, & the bride keeps her own mind intact as well as be able to help control the master's emotions (the bride is not able to be compelled or controlled either). So, that is where some of the "fantasy" of happy wife = happy life comes in. The bride is also more powerful than a typical fledgling, but now the master & bride are linked & become a very tough couple to break or destroy. (They can read each other's emotions & eventually will be able to communicate in their own way, without words...but not like the tadpole-type mind connection if that makes sense). So the bride has full autonomy & is powerful, just not as much as the master...but formidable, nonetheless. Dynamic couple to take on the world type of thing.....

Since Larian animated it this way, this is what many people thought they were getting before the patch 6 release. Astarion is a "new" kind of being (a kind of mortal/fledgling/master) type of being with all the benefits of the way he was with a tadpole, but more powerful than a "master true vampire" since he is enhanced. But!!! This is not what Larian decided at this time. They decided to just make him like a more powerful "true" vampire & instead of Tav being a bride/groom, they are a "spawn" or fledgling. Larian has a chance to go the route of the bride/groom story and truly make him a new kind of being that would be a vampire ascendant, but as of Patch 6, he is just a true vampire master with the power of the 7007 souls & ability to walk in the sun. Currently, they do not have his EA backstory in the game, so at this time...it is not canon because that was under a different company.

Maybe if you all care to write Larian about the chance to follow this route, this may be a more suitable outcome for some of the fans of Ascended Astarion. But, as of right now, it looks as if they are going to go with the good vs evil route only.

Also, just so any of you who have not played as a paladin yet as a romanced individual of Astarion...the Oath of the Ancients breaks their oath by letting the "spawns" free. The oath of vengeance is broken by the opposite.

In my opinion, there are more ways to write a character than just black or white in a storyline, but that is my humble opinion. Please let Larian know your thoughts in feedback, not on the forums. Not all of us Ascended him for an S&M fantasy, but for us to be a couple that would walk this life together in a dangerous Talin with more to come from it in the future as a vampire couple. Also, let's not forget!!!! There are still a GREAT number of bugs in the game & many of these trigger signs have not come through in all playthroughs. So, please don't shame others for what they like or don't like. I just love the character but now the way they have made him, I can't play either Spawn or Ascended. I may never play again, I just don't know. Especially since the entire BS fighting and the attacking has become that much stronger. Also...on another note.....if they did this to one "evil" character, they will end up doing it for all. God Gale, Dark Justicar Shadowheart, Minthara, etc etc. Just watch, so please don't rub it into people's faces. It might happen to you too. Thanks for listening. Please don't bash me for trying to explain what some saw as potential in the story & what was on the screen of my game with its bugs & all. Thanks.

Once again, this is a thread for ALL things related to Astarion romance, not one dedicated to AA. Do you see Ascended Astarion in the title or me saying that in the OP? Why do you keep saying that?


Another thing I've noticed is how they've treated Spawn Astarion in this patch. As already mentioned, they gave SA only 1 new kiss with a bad angle, they didn't give him any new lines, no unique kiss past Cazador encounter.

And now they also did this (I used the SA epilogue video I've linked earlier for the screen):



He is smiling exactly the same way as during the 3rd long rest (watching the stars) when he's feeding Tav sweet little lies. They are now visibly showing that Astarion is insincere in the ending, so we can assume all of his heartfelt, cute lines about being saved, being equals and how he's happy with Tav were BS.

It looks like they want to make everyone feel bad about romancing Astarion.

Apologies if some of my answers aren't exactly what you meant, I think you're using a google translator and it's hard for me to fully understand what you exactly meant.

1. You can kill them but still not condemn them to eternal torture. Big difference. Also, they're not attacking Baldur's Gate citizens, because they're going to the underdark. It's worth noting that they seem to be doing well judging by the epilogue note, although we don't know that at the time of the ritual, so fair enough.
Joker and Harley aren't a good example when it comes to fetishizing abuse or portraying her as a very graphic victim of abuse. There are famous instances of JokerxHarley dynamics doing so. Her first iteration was depicting her being horribly physically assaulted and battered by the Joker. One of the most famous iterations (the original Suicide Squad) glorifies their abusive relationship.

2. Not wanting to see gore is also inherent in a lot of people (perhaps more). Yet the game depicts it gratuitously and often. Censoring certain themes isn't a good idea, IMO. There is a lot of body horror. Also, Astarion doesn't allow you to leave if you try to break up, so I'd say that's another instance of controlling Tav.

3. Assuming you don't care about the devnotes (again, writer's instructions for Neil) I attached that outright refer to him as abusive, Astarion's entire story is about how abuse has affected him and whether or not he will go on to inflict it on others in order to maintain the feeling of power.
In act 1 he's already describing vampire lords as inherently abusive ("paranoid power-hungry creatures" "a spawn is their obedient puppet" which can be nicely contrasted with "you're going to be wonderfully obedient" etc) a couple of lines where he implies or more outright says he wants to be like Cazador (that one conversation where he says he's jealous of him, the power he commands and the miracle he's on the verge of, and him outright recognising this in the spawn Route). He terribly lashes out at origin Karlach if he tries to turn her in a way that's actually much more triggering for me than the kisses, he doesn't let you break up with him in the ending scene, he, in my opinion, sincerely states he would have ruined your love until you were nothing (a bluff about this doesn't seem to make much sense to me)...
There are more, but these are so often debated and people are so wilfully interpreting what they want to see that I see no point in bringing them up.
One of my controversial takes that I don't see brought up often is that the epilogue line where a Tav that doesn't want to be with Ascended Astarion complains about freedom, he specifies that he gives them "pleasure", which, considering that this Tav doesn't want to be there, might be implying sexual abuse. This isn't necessarily what the writers intended though and might just be my reading of the line, but I don't think it's a too out-there reading.
I will say I already saw the crux of Astarion's arc back when I played Early Access, and correctly predicted his evil ending would be him becoming a Vampire Lord (didn't predict Ascension) and turning romanced Tav into a spawn that he would degrade.




Btw, funny that we both brought up Joker and Harley, I promise I hadn't seen this when I wrote that other reply, lol

Apologies, it was a generalisation. You have to admit that about 95% of this thread is specifically discussing AA, and thus full of AA appreciators, whether that was original intention when you posted it or not.

Here's my main problem. It's not too late to turn back. We've killed one vampire master like 5 minutes ago, we can certainly kill another. We're defying the inevitability of an Illithid transformation. We're going against the will of gods.

...but somehow we are trapped in a relationship? Seriously? So very trapped that if we ask, once, the relationship ends? That's the opposite than the definition of trapped.

I think that deciding if Tav/DU has any kinks should be decided by the player. I do understand that many people here would enjoy being a sub and should be allowed to do that. Other players don't and should be allowed to choose that. Deciding if Astarion, spawn or Ascended listen to Tav or DU preferences, kinks or vanilla is up to Larian. Also, some people might be doms and not subs or switch. Or have some kind of boundaries...

How to code the choice might be done by dialog. For example, when a character offers Astarion to drink their blood, is a good moment to mention if you are into masochism. But it should also be possible to say, I don't really like it, but I want to help you anyway. Or even, "Not bad, but maybe next time I will be the one who bites you". Or "I prefer to be the one doing the bitting". Offering options there shows preferences.

Then again, I think when it comes to kinks, people usually talk before trying things with new partners. If they can ask several times in the bear scene, they can to that is a kinky scene with Astarion. Depending the answers, you could know if Tav/DU likes it or not. Just saying.

I'm not into the new kisses and I would have liked new ones for spaw Astarion, but I think that if they wanted to add Tav as a sub, at least they should have done it in a way that people into that can enjoy it.

That was a nice form with much freedom to input ones thoughts as to why when picking the different options, I also liked the different images of Tav and Astarion showing our points to our concerns. Hopefully Larian will listen.

This right here.

Eh? I forgot to do this: abusive (that word should always be there, we should always keep in mind the potential development of the event if My Tav\Du stops being an immoral clever, evil bard in search of vice and fun)
It would be like this if Asatrion licked Tav's wound. He's very gentle, like kissing a hand during a night of turn. That's what would add an interesting varied dynamic. I guess a regular kiss? it'll be fine

Perhaps this idea isn't so simple, or it's not so easy to cram it into the story in a way that makes the player see just that. And if Larian decided to go as simple as showing a cycle of violence, applying the typical techniques of "sadistic 3D porn", without linking to the lines, to the nature of the relationship between the characters, to the behavior of Tav and their attitude to Astarion throughout the game, just making the prelude to sadistic porn their usual kisses, and before that Astarion can charmingly and playfully shrug ("Yes, my treasure? "), and then after this "foreplay" announce with complete seriousness that we are "Lovers Forever", then... This is even worse and even sillier on their part than even if they started positioning their game as a "sex store" where players are offered a choice of companions based on their preferences.


In my subjective opinion, these "ducks" are clearly quacking in unison. The difference between sadistic content and SM content is the victim's facial expressions and body language.

This seems like an extremely crude attempt to FORCE the player to see Astarion as an abuser, to the effect that if you don't want to be a victim, you should FORCE him to give up the ritual, fix it, and suppress it. It's basically emotional abuse as a Valentine's Day gift. Or was it a calculation that the player would cry and "run away in fear" from Astarion, get angry at him, etc.? Well, in my case they only succeeded in the first, and instead of the second and third, I preferred to spend some time to try and figure out what was going on. The motivations of the developers are a matter of debate, one can speculate all sorts of things, and it's possible they may envision the "cycle of violence" in this way, after all, if you search for violence on porn resources, you'll find authors who have exactly the same ideas about it.


Astarion after refusing the ritual always says only what the "good hero" would like to hear, he keeps manipulating out of desperation, I like this scene on the contrary, it's exactly how formulaic Astarion would say. I really like SA's acting, it's very subtle to convey his feeling of being depressed, broken, you can see the way he adjusts to Tav. When I played with SA it felt just on an empathic level, it was my most depressing time playing BG3. I just want to play BG3 with Lord Astarion and kiss him, not the rotten herring of sadism they put in his pocket in the name of the "abjuse cycle".


To stop feeling is the same as to stop being yourself. I can't stop feeling, and I don't want that for my favorite character, and that's why I help him ascended. Telling someone to stop feeling won't make them stop feeling. And yes, this sadism seems to include trying to "fix" players who aren't going to "fix" Astarion.


I have, I read, I read the whole thread, unfortunately I just can't have time to reply or comment on everything, so I'm only commenting on a few things. I have a pretty heavy work load right now, I may not be able to keep up with the forum, I apologize in advance to anyone I won't be able to reply to.


What about Tav, who loves Astarion and would never want to leave him? Does that have to involve sexual abuse too? Why? My Tav loves Astarion and all of Astarion's lines and behavior fit perfectly and logically with the roleplay and plot. Except for that sadistic content. If those kisses were only for those Tavs who want to leave, there might be some logic to it (but still no justification for sadistic content in a classic RPG) but they are for all Tavs.

I think Larian should fix those kisses at least for their own sake. What one person saw, ten people will see tomorrow, and after a while Steam will simply change the game's rating and move it from the category of classic RPGs to the category of SV (sadism and violence) games.