@Veranis I'm arguing against the idea that there's a fetishistic intent behind the animations. It's nitpicky since it actually isn't really relevant to the discussion, I'll admit, but rumours start that way and I don't like that kind of stuff being spread. Also, yes. There are people asking for changes to Astarion or claiming he's OOC in this very thread, and I've seen a few people very vehemently express this idea online as well.
Thank you for your answer and yes, I agree with you that there shouldn't be changes to Astarion.
Originally Posted by jinetemoranco
Evidently, the epilogue would remain the same, as I said it's not about the kisses, so we agree on that. (Although, Tav very much has the potential to express that they're miserable, and I don't think it'd have to be the far away future for Astarion to display those tendencies, considering he refuses to let you go in the ending if you ask to break up and that's what, a week after the ritual?.)
Yes, they have the potential, but it is a choice I as the player can make - is my Tav/Durge miserable or not? I have one that is and one that isn't and the epilogue thankfully let's me play both. In the kisses I suddenly don't have a choice anymore. Tav is miserable. Period. (no argument about his controlling tendencies here, the "you'll be wonderfully obedient anyway"-line is not very subtle for example)
Originally Posted by jinetemoranco
but one sentiment I see a lot is "why would my Tav be displeased? They're super evil" when evil people can very much still be abused (for this one, I assume they might be talking about something else when they say this, IDK). Now, if they're into all that's been presented so far that's another story
I guess that is what they mean - they are playing a character that's evil and knows what they are getting into and enjoys it.
Originally Posted by jinetemoranco
(Another somewhat unrelated argument I've seen is "you can picture it as abusive if you pick those options, but I pick the right ones so it's a healthy relationship!" which is flawed because if you need to constantly please someone and be under their thumb so they don't lash out that's still abusive, and realistically eventually Tav's going to slip up or Astarion is going to grow harder to please)
Again, I agree, the choices you make do not change the dynamic of the relationship/story, just how your character perceives them/reacts to them.
Originally Posted by jinetemoranco
My other caveat is the idea that the upset faces are nonsensical because "Why would Tav just take it and kneel if they're upset? They can still break up!" Granted, being able to break up makes for a big difference than after he gains the ability to compel you, but in real life plenty of people stay and withstand abusive situations even when they can leave. Emotional manipulation (and the love you can have for someone) can have a bigger hold on you than you'd expect, even when having the means to escape that situation. Leaving an abusive relationship isn't that easy, so I find someone staying and obeying throughout abusive displays to be very doable, and in fact true to life.
I've written about that a few posts back and while I totally agree, it is exactly what is wrong with the facial animations at this stage of the story. Just as you explained - Tav acts like someone who has been abused over a long period of time and been systematically broken down until they have no will of their own anymore and don't dare to leave even if they could. This cannot be the case (yet). They are still at the beginning of the relationship and at this part of the story all have still their tadpoles (no compulsion possible, which could force them literally to stay). So, beside the fact that showing this behaviour can be very triggering for some, it does not make any sense as part of the ongoing narrative either.
Thanks for sharing your viewpoint, I think we're overall in agreement about what the story represents. Personally, I don't want AA changed, I just want the horrible facial animations gone.
