Someone was given the assignment to write "evil, dominating, kissing, a little sadistic (?) and a face like the poster" And someone showed evil, dominating, sadistic - more at the expense of Tav's face. Which is victim - which is the most illogical line of the narrative (Tav breaks up with Astarion, has a huge number of opportunities and Astarion is quite open that he's an immoral, toxic, elven butt) and such Tav just won't go near the kiss. Discussing that it's bad to give autonomy to Vampire Lord Astarion (thanks cap) is a meme. Discussing the topic of abuse with Vampire Lord Astarion is not logical (on multiple levels) and disrespectful to real abuse. In my humble opinion.
To stop feeling is the same as to stop being yourself. I can't stop feeling, and I don't want that for my favorite character, and that's why I help him ascended. Telling someone to stop feeling won't make them stop feeling. And yes, this sadism seems to include trying to "fix" players who aren't going to "fix" Astarion.
What about Tav, who loves Astarion and would never want to leave him? Does that have to involve sexual abuse too? Why? My Tav loves Astarion and all of Astarion's lines and behavior fit perfectly and logically with the roleplay and plot. Except for that sadistic content. If those kisses were only for those Tavs who want to leave, there might be some logic to it (but still no justification for sadistic content in a classic RPG) but they are for all Tavs.
I didn't say you should stop feeling in general. I'm saying they're most likely not trying to victimise anyone by telling their story, and taking it so personally doesn't help anyone. Larian's not personally out to get you to specifically make you feel bad and rethink your life choices, they're sticking to AA's characterisation and the story they are trying to tell with him. I don't think they should modify and soften their story and strip it of its themes to pander. (I'm not saying this about Tav's face during the kisses btw, as I clarify below. But mostly about the idea that this behavior coming from him is OOC. It seems extremely in character for me, at least.)
Re: "Sadistic porn faces" I think it's important to note that that porn IS trying to imitate abuse. It's going to look similar. You showing me pictures of women in distress doesn't really make it clear. The idea that they just wanted to depict abuse is less outlandish than them being inspired by sadistic 3D porn and thinking it was fap material. Occam's Razor case.
I'm not saying AAstarion is sexually abusing your Tav. You asked me to give proof of him being abusive in other instances in the game (or at least that's what I understood from our convo, again, I think there might be a language barrier so apologies in advance if not), and I gave an interpretation of that one line, which might not even actually be the writer's intent. As I said, that line implies sexual abuse /because/ it comes from a Tav that doesn't want any of this and wants to leave. If your Tav is happily staying, I can't divulge on their sexual lives. Only you can. I try to be honest about how much my interpretations might actually have been the writer's intention, and I can't 100% say they didn't accidentally write those implications. It's much subtler than other lines, so I can't say. That being said: if we take my interpretation as correct (and all the way more obvious lines that also lean this way), this demonstrates that AA is very much capable of abusive behavior, like you asked. It doesn't matter what your Tav picks and how he has pleased him, because nothing justifies abuse, much less asking for freedom. Let me reiterate: I'm not saying he's sexually abusing your Tav. I'm not saying he's abusing your Tav, just in general. Your Tav's reactions are up to you. I'm saying AAstarion, as a character, is more than capable and willing to engage in abusive behaviors, this is not an "alternate timeline" thing where he's retroactively different or something, this is a character trait present in him as shown by some choices in the game.
I also have to repeat that I'm not against Tav's face being changed at all...? I'm with all of you guys, I think they should be changed. All this conversation started because I think it's extremely unlikely that Larian felt the need to hire and outsource a freelancer 3D Porn animator for this, and felt that there was a much simpler explanation as to what they intended. I still don't agree with it. I'm just saying that there's like a 90% chance that's not why they made it look this way.
It's possible that the Larian didn't intend to "punish" anyone on purpose, that they just wanted more sex content in the game, and that's how they wanted to please the SM audience, because the topic was only touched on in the game, but not explored. That they probably hired some top 3D porn animator to do it. And this person wasn't privy to any dark romance, didn't know anything about Astarion's character or any relationship with Tav, he got a text script of the kisses themselves (bite, kneel, grab his face, make Astarion's face like the poster, etc), a general brief like "Lord Astarion and his spawn that he can control". And he did his job qualitatively in a "she is controlled" kind of way.
Originally Posted by jinetemoranco
The idea that they just wanted to depict abuse is less outlandish than them being inspired by sadistic 3D porn and thinking it was fap material. Occam's Razor case.
I don't see any sort of idea like that being mentioned. Besides, if they so badly wanted to portray abuse hiring someone who knows how to animate it makes sense. I hope it was just supposed to be bdsm fanservice that got out of hand.
People are justifiably upset and voice their concerns about the patch, even try to find reasons to understand why we got the changes we did. Jinetemoranco, if you want to argue so much whether Astarion is an abuser or not feel free to open a new thread about it in the discussion forums, because I feel like you're derailing this one now right now.
PS. Marielle, can you put the images in a spoiler?
People are justifiably upset and voice their concerns about the patch, even try to find reasons to understand why we got the changes we did. Jinetemoranco, if you want to argue so much whether Astarion is an abuser or not feel free to open a new thread about it in the discussion forums, because I feel like you're derailing this one now right now.
And I replied with my opinion of why I think they did that. And then I was asked about it being consistent with other instances in the game, so I replied. Also, again, they have their own team of animators and mo-cap actors (the body movement mostly comes from them, the animators just clean it up). These kisses are not an incredible feat in realism and animation, they're very within the standards of what we've seen in the game. It's an upset face. Very standard one at that for BG3. They don't need to outsource a top 3D porn animator for that. It's an unnecessary cost and effort when you already have the resources for that within the company, and for an extremely minor and trivial part of the game. That'd make more sense for the sex scenes if anything.
First off, I just posted an example of you twisting someone's words. Stop making things up. First Ascended Astarion thread, and now this.
Originally Posted by jinetemoranco
My caveats are about a couple of ideas that have popped up while arguing why Tav shouldn't look upset which I don't think hold a lot of water for this specific scenario when applied to the long run (not right now, per se, just as general ideas as to why they shouldn't be upset). I'm not super serious about it though since I assume people aren't conveying all the nuances of what they want to say there, but one sentiment I see a lot is "why would my Tav be displeased? They're super evil" when evil people can very much still be abused (for this one, I assume they might be talking about something else when they say this, IDK). Now, if they're into all that's been presented so far that's another story (Another somewhat unrelated argument I've seen is "you can picture it as abusive if you pick those options, but I pick the right ones so it's a healthy relationship!" which is flawed because if you need to constantly please someone and be under their thumb so they don't lash out that's still abusive, and realistically eventually Tav's going to slip up or Astarion is going to grow harder to please) My other caveat is the idea that the upset faces are nonsensical because "Why would Tav just take it and kneel if they're upset? They can still break up!" Granted, being able to break up makes for a big difference than after he gains the ability to compel you, but in real life plenty of people stay and withstand abusive situations even when they can leave. Emotional manipulation (and the love you can have for someone) can have a bigger hold on you than you'd expect, even when having the means to escape that situation. Leaving an abusive relationship isn't that easy, so I find someone staying and obeying throughout abusive displays to be very doable, and in fact true to life.
You admitted the animations are questionable, yet you keep trying to engage with people and tell them how they feel and think is wrong. This is not a discussion thread. I don't want valid feedback being buried under "circular arguments" as you phrased it yourself.
First off, I just posted an example of you twisting someone's words. Stop making things up.
Thing is I don't see the twist, exactly. Marielle's message (or what I understood, at least) is that they think Larian didn't mean to punish anyone but was instead trying to make sexy content for the SM audience and hired someone that specialised in that. I don't really see the difference...?
Also of note that I was asked for my opinion on the caveats, if that was the point of the quote you posted. I only brought them up in passing when discussing something else.
EDIT: Just saw your edit and erm, again, this thread overwhelmingly discusses AA over Spawn. My statement wasn't technically correct, but as a generalisation and in the context it was used it makes sense, I don't know what to tell you. I was talking about AA fans (or most that I observed when discussing this topic) being Pro-fiction (me included) and not moralising game choices, that was the point. It's a very trivial thing to nitpick.
Thing is I don't see the twist, exactly. Marielle's message (or what I understood, at least) is that they think Larian didn't mean to punish anyone but was instead trying to make sexy content for the SM audience and hired someone that specialised in that. I don't really see the difference...?
In the old post of Marielle's that's what's being said, yes, but now you're implying inspirations by that content as for the reason we have these animations now. Marielle never said that.
Originally Posted by jinetemoranco
Also of note that I was asked for my opinion on the caveats, if that was the point of the quote you posted. I only brought them up in passing when discussing something else.
And I posted that as an example of you derailing the thread with discussions about how others' ideas are wrong and steering it towards "Ascended Astarion is an abuser".
People are feeling very upset right now, and it feels like you're baiting them to start discussions.
Thing is I don't see the twist, exactly. Marielle's message (or what I understood, at least) is that they think Larian didn't mean to punish anyone but was instead trying to make sexy content for the SM audience and hired someone that specialised in that. I don't really see the difference...?
In the old post of Marielle's that's what's being said, yes, but now you're implying inspirations by that content as for the reason we have these animations now. Marielle never said that.
Originally Posted by jinetemoranco
Also of note that I was asked for my opinion on the caveats, if that was the point of the quote you posted. I only brought them up in passing when discussing something else.
And I posted that as an example of you derailing the thread with discussions about how others' ideas are wrong and steering it towards "Ascended Astarion" is an abuser.
People are feeling very upset right now, and it feels like you're baiting them to start discussions.
That Sadistic 3D porn inspired the animations felt like what was being implied here, like that was what the animator meant to replicate when they got the text instructions, perhaps I got the wrong idea. Again it feels like a strange nitpick, my /main/ point is that I don't think the faces were meant to be sexy or that they outsourced it to a porn animator, which isn't really twisting anything that hasn't been said.
Again, Veranis was curious about my caveats. I didn't explain them at all originally. Your quote is me replying to Veranis.
You might not agree with me discussing things here, that's fine. But me saying that I find it unlikely that something was the writer's intent or whatever isn't me saying anyone's wrong. It's not that personal, at least to me. I'm free to disagree too, I think. I've tried to be careful in always expressing that these are my opinions, I don't know if I've slipped up but I have at least tried not to.
You literally said we should stop feeling a certain way. You bring up some things to start discussions, people bite and ask you for more. You are derailing this thread and steering it towards particular conversations. Again, this is a suggestions and feedback thread that's meant to help improve the romance. These discussions help with nothing. Let's just leave it at this, shall we?
Again, Veranis was curious about my caveats. I didn't explain them at all originally. Your quote is me replying to Veranis.
Yes, and I'm still thankful for your replies. I think we had a good discussion on the topic (which was still Astarion and one of his romance paths). I am always interested to see where others are coming from when we discuss things and then we came to the conclusion that we agreed on most of the points. So, in that case it was me derailing the thread out of curiosity.
So, in the spirit of getting this thread back on track, before a Mod closes it: Everybody is agreeing that the facial animations are not okay and should be changed. There has been a lot of good arguments on why (narratively, because of rpg and because it's triggering). Speculating on why the developers chose to do it this way will not help our cause (and neither does getting this thread locked because of argueing).
@Ametris Imo in that case it was a very valid thing to say, it's not the greatest mindset to have and will only make you feel hurt when the authors are most likely not intending to hurt you, I know because I've also been there. I maintain that stance, it's important when it comes to the media consumption debate (and even censorship, if you stretch its ramifications, but this might be a reach, idk) and my wording shouldn't be taken /that/ literally. I can't and shouldn't dictate anyone's thoughts, but hopefully I'm still allowed to indicate that I think they might be unhealthy or not what's really happening. Of course, you're right in that it's not related to feedback, or that I shouldn't tackle personal mindsets with strangers.
If it makes you feel better, I actually don't like having these discussions in the slightest or seek them out. Sometimes I just strongly disagree with an opinion and feel, to my detriment, the need to express my disagreement, and then it just becomes an ouroboros of people defending their own viewpoints. Let's leave it here, then.
Personally, I'm not hurt, but I did talk to people who are and I sympathise with them and want them to feel validated when they post here or even just read the comments. I myself am bemused, tired, annoyed and disappointed that Larian is clearly undecided how to write Astarion, slights the evil romances, and we end up with contradictions and errors each patch. I'm also fed up with seeing "Ascended Astarion is an abuser and should be presented that way" being thrown around wherever I go (which is a result of this patch). I just want to have a nice dark fantasy romance, because there is no one else in the game who can give it to me. I also want to romance Minthara as Ascended Astarion (because they're a match made in Hells) but her romance is broken and unfinished. My first reaction when I saw Tav's animations was "WTF, that's supposed to be my Tav?! Who is that person?" The kisses are so absurd to me I just can't help but make fun of them. I think I'll do some more work in Paint. I'm trying to take this in a humourous way.
Perhaps this idea isn't so simple, or it's not so easy to cram it into the story in a way that makes the player see just that. And if Larian decided to go as simple as showing a cycle of violence, applying the typical techniques of "sadistic 3D porn", without linking to the lines, to the nature of the relationship between the characters, to the behavior of Tav and their attitude to Astarion throughout the game, just making the prelude to sadistic porn their usual kisses, and before that Astarion can charmingly and playfully shrug ("Yes, my treasure? "), and then after this "foreplay" announce with complete seriousness that we are "Lovers Forever", then... This is even worse and even sillier on their part than even if they started positioning their game as a "sex store" where players are offered a choice of companions based on their preferences. Here's Tav's facial expression (I'm using Tav from the petition as an example, if it's unacceptable I'll change the picture to a different Tav)
And the facial expressions of the victims of sadistic 3D porn.
In my subjective opinion, these "ducks" are clearly quacking in unison. The difference between sadistic content and SM content is the victim's facial expressions and body language.
This seems like an extremely crude attempt to FORCE the player to see Astarion as an abuser, to the effect that if you don't want to be a victim, you should FORCE him to give up the ritual, fix it, and suppress it. It's basically emotional abuse as a Valentine's Day gift. Or was it a calculation that the player would cry and "run away in fear" from Astarion, get angry at him, etc.? Well, in my case they only succeeded in the first, and instead of the second and third, I preferred to spend some time to try and figure out what was going on. The motivations of the developers are a matter of debate, one can speculate all sorts of things, and it's possible they may envision the "cycle of violence" in this way, after all, if you search for violence on porn resources, you'll find authors who have exactly the same ideas about it.
I think Larian should fix those kisses at least for their own sake. What one person saw, ten people will see tomorrow, and after a while Steam will simply change the game's rating and move it from the category of classic RPGs to the category of SV (sadism and violence) games.
Thank you, Marielle, for making the effort, it must have been difficult for you.. These faces look frighteningly similar, and the blank, glassy eyes, which are a sign that someone is now under control during the "mind control" in the animations of sadistic porns for men, are also strikingly similar, also in the "bite kiss" (see pictures below from Astarion Tav). The faces of the victims of sexual abuse look frightened in these animations, terrified, which is exactly what excites people with sadistic personality disorders. Normal people may find these extreme expressions of fear of their Tavs oppressive.
Last edited by Zayir; 22/02/2410:39 PM.
"I would, thank God, watch the universe perish without shedding a tear."
Someone was given the assignment to write "evil, dominating, kissing, a little sadistic (?) and a face like the poster" And someone showed evil, dominating, sadistic - more at the expense of Tav's face. Which is victim - which is the most illogical line of the narrative (Tav breaks up with Astarion, has a huge number of opportunities and Astarion is quite open that he's an immoral, toxic, elven butt) and such Tav just won't go near the kiss. Discussing that it's bad to give autonomy to Vampire Lord Astarion (thanks cap) is a meme. Discussing the topic of abuse with Vampire Lord Astarion is not logical (on multiple levels) and disrespectful to real abuse. In my humble opinion.
I hope this post goes through...
I've been trying to apologize to you for days now but I keep getting an error, I'm really sorry for the way I replied on my thread the other day, please accept my apology.
Personally, I'm not hurt, but I did talk to people who are and I sympathise with them and want them to feel validated when they post here. I myself am bemused, tired, annoyed and disappointed that Larian is clearly undecided how to write Astarion, slights the evil path and romances, and we end up with contradictions and errors each patch. I'm also fed up with seeing "Ascended Astarion is an abuser and should be presented that way" being thrown around wherever I go (which is a result of this patch). I just want to have a nice dark romance, because there is no one else in the game who can give it to me. I also want to romance Minthara as Ascended Astarion but her romance is broken and unfinished. My first reaction when I saw Tav's animations was "WTF, that's supposed to be my Tav?! Who is that person?" The kisses are so absurd to me I just can't help but make fun of them. I think I'll do some more work in Paint. I'm trying to take this in a humourous way.
I couldn't agree more with this. I'm also into the whole dark romance thing and I loved what they did with Astarion, so much that I couldn't get myself to romance anyone else in the game but with this new patch, as I've expressed so many times, I almost can't stand to look at him anymore, I hate his character. It is not the Astarion we had and knew, why change him now 6 months after release? Also I've been saying that it doesn't trigger me the way he now behaves but perhaps that isn't true... I think I do get triggered, as a victim of severe abuse and possession it does trigger me I think, they made Astarion into everything I hate and despise. I really liked his character, he was that perfect dark with a touch of evil but he wasn't abusive and he would never hurt my Tav, now I see him as he could hurt her no matter what and whenever he pleases, she is dead scared of him doing so and it shows in those new scenes.
I posted just shortly on Facebook about how I thought these scenes looked abusive and quickly a bunch of guys jumped my throat to defend them saying I should get off my high horse cause Astarion was always evil and bla bla bla, of course they will defend it, they get to live out their fantasies now about strangling and abusing their sexdolls!!
Thank you for the information! The bride lore tidbit is very interesting and would contradict and dismantle the whole abuser theme. Unhappy bride=unhappy lord after all. It really does look like that's what's going on in the romance scene, I only wish Larian fully clarified it in the game if Astarion can actually compel Tav, because they stay with him, yet we never see that red aura around them like we could with Astarion's siblings.
Originally Posted by DarkAngelBeckons
In my opinion, there are more ways to write a character than just black or white in a storyline, but that is my humble opinion. Please let Larian know your thoughts in feedback, not on the forums. Not all of us Ascended him for an S&M fantasy, but for us to be a couple that would walk this life together in a dangerous Talin with more to come from it in the future as a vampire couple. Also, let's not forget!!!! There are still a GREAT number of bugs in the game & many of these trigger signs have not come through in all playthroughs. So, please don't shame others for what they like or don't like. I just love the character but now the way they have made him, I can't play either Spawn or Ascended. I may never play again, I just don't know. Especially since the entire BS fighting and the attacking has become that much stronger. Also...on another note.....if they did this to one "evil" character, they will end up doing it for all. God Gale, Dark Justicar Shadowheart, Minthara, etc etc. Just watch, so please don't rub it into people's faces. It might happen to you too. Thanks for listening. Please don't bash me for trying to explain what some saw as potential in the story & what was on the screen of my game with its bugs & all. Thanks.
Originally Posted by Gunsumber
I'm also into the whole dark romance thing and I loved what they did with Astarion, so much that I couldn't get myself to romance anyone else in the game but with this new patch, as I've expressed so many times, I almost can't stand to look at him anymore, I hate his character.
Comments like these are sad to read. This was supposed to be a happy patch!
Originally Posted by DaeronBastien
Act. 3 5. The Haarlep scene <-- They have done this!!!
I finally found a video of that scene, and it is indeed better now, though I still wish he had to be persuaded to not interfere or just automatically got aggressive with Haarlep no matter what. If persuasion was possible, he should still kill Haarlep afterwards so Tav doesn't end up bound to him.
I'm also into the whole dark romance thing and I loved what they did with Astarion, so much that I couldn't get myself to romance anyone else in the game but with this new patch, as I've expressed so many times, I almost can't stand to look at him anymore, I hate his character.
I had the same reaction. It's not just AAstarion, but in general I can't watch videos with Astarion anymore, even the ones where he's spawn. At the moment I've also stopped playing it: I play it from time to time with a friend, but I can't do it alone...
I assume various things when I think of Astarion. He may have been evil, but vulgar, empty, cheap - no. And yes, Tav is special. Even if he dominates Tav, even he will be sadistic - he gets pleasure when Tav is into it. A kiss implies consent. Tav into it. What happened to the face...? Tav came up. Logical fallacy.
"You're mine, you're a treasure, there's nothing wrong with you, ask for anything I'll do" is a delicate gentle-dark dynamic. When Astarion can literally ask to be gentle and he will. The abusiveness of such a kiss depends on Tav, and we've already discussed how much the victim-Tav line is just lame. Tav choose the romance themselves and give up their autonomy a few times - make them a victim and "look how stupid you are, wrong" - trigger. I don't think guys have any intention of fantasies. "Evil cannot love tenderly" - I think this their point. Big misconception, and flat.Their "high horse" point doesn't make sense as long as they kiss Mintara with a satisfied face. And to the drow, men are literally "things". Astarion isn't Mintara - but he's not a sphere of evil either.
When we think of a character who does evil things for something, but can do something good - we usually say a gray character. But he could just be a complex evil.
"The essence of his character comes down to the value of violence and the dark side of humanity, as well as his extraordinary charm and allure. This balance is crucial, because a shift to either side would make Astarion extremely unattractive or too one-dimensional and empty a character" - acquaintance's opinion. Gunsumber, you felt something was... sloppy. Yes, many of us. The biggest problem is the Tav face, I assure you. Some people just ignore Tav's face, Astarion's animations aren't bad. (but ruined by Tav's face at 0) True, gentle dynamics for that balanc like the night of the turn are necessary.
Yeah, that's so true, AA fans have a big cartload of trauma and just general shit in their lives too.
... I loved what they did with Astarion, so much that I couldn't get myself to romance anyone else in the game but with this new patch, as I've expressed so many times, I almost can't stand to look at him anymore
I feel very similar to you, I haven't picked the game up since I downloaded the patch.
Originally Posted by Ametris
... My first reaction when I saw Tav's animations was "WTF, that's supposed to be my Tav?! Who is that person?".
I had exactly the same reaction. Looking at that terrified face, it felt like my Tav was no longer the character I created.
If Tav's having fun, I'm having fun. That's all I want, for the romance to be a fun little part of the game.
... I loved what they did with Astarion, so much that I couldn't get myself to romance anyone else in the game but with this new patch, as I've expressed so many times, I almost can't stand to look at him anymore
I feel very similar to you, I haven't picked the game up since I downloaded the patch.
Originally Posted by Ametris
... My first reaction when I saw Tav's animations was "WTF, that's supposed to be my Tav?! Who is that person?".
I had exactly the same reaction. Looking at that terrified face, it felt like my Tav was no longer the character I created.
I've played over 800 hours, 300 of them during EA. I've left feedbeak in discord.... One is about Cazador and bringing back his role that was cut, and next is AAstarion (his kisses, Tav/Du's face, lack of neutral dialogue options for Tav/Du in the novel). ) Perhaps I was harsh when I added that I don’t like when in RPGs game impose their opinions on the player....but the fact is that they removed both fitbacks. In fact, after being disappointed with the release, I was sincerely excited for Patch 5.
But now, I'll just wait for them to finish this game, make one last run and if they don't change this course, I don't think I'll buy any more games from them.
The kisses are so absurd to me I just can't help but make fun of them. I think I'll do some more work in Paint. I'm trying to take this in a humourous way.
![[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]](https://i.imgur.com/w6YutKu.png)
![[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]](https://i.imgur.com/mUqSLLK.jpg)
![[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]](https://i.imgur.com/0R1826o.jpg)
![[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]](https://i.imgur.com/aZ0UflB.jpg)
![[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]](https://i.imgur.com/QN0fQOR.jpg)
![[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]](https://i.imgur.com/taPTeHo.jpg)
![[Linked Image from i.postimg.cc]](https://i.postimg.cc/RCkwMPsR/Un-2.jpg)
![[Linked Image from i.postimg.cc]](https://i.postimg.cc/kM1hfd55/Un-1.jpg)
