The counterpoint generally presented is that having any way to recruit Minthara into the party that doesn't involve slaughtering the Grove will somehow diminish the Villainous and Goodly paths in this game, both at the same time. As if she's the only thing holding the Villainous path together (sans Durge), and that if somehow you make the wrong choice on that, you're basically playing wrong or doing a disservice to the character or the authors' intentions. The cognitive dissonance on that take is just unreal to me the more I let it sink in though.
We're supposed to pin it all on her? Given everything in the setup - that's the takeaway lesson there? Like what, that we shouldn't at least try to help this obvious cult victim Minthara break free of her programming by the absolute? We will never even get to confront the real issue being raised or that framing, or get the "cult" part, if the character is just off'd instantly and mindlessly so the PC can play conformist and feel all goody goody about it. This is very tough though, because the meta only reveals itself upon subsequent playthrough, and probably Durge run even, which will just break the brain, and kinda puts a different spin on everything that happens. Particularly the resist angle on that one.
Take the party counterpoints to Minthara, which to my mind would probably be Karlach and Wyll, since they will party break over this one hardcore. It's especially tough for Karlach though, because it's totally possible to run into her after the big branch has already occurred. Like she's not in a very obvious location on the map. It's pretty easy to blow right past her or to miss whatever setup on that.
If this does happen to the player, say they mess up at the Goblin camp, fail to recruit Minthara, but also somehow Halsin dies, or just botch the Grove, or whatever thousand little things that might happen in the variables, suddenly a character who might slot in as a replacement otherwise (Karlach), instead puts us immediately on blast holding us responsible for everything that's just happened. Even if it wasn't the PC's malicious intent, or even their actions, but perhaps just a mechanical mistake or some other cross faction thing. They accidentally clicked a red chest or AoE'd the wrong whoever, failed a check and now boom, everyone is killing each other...
Karlach isn't buying it at all. Despite us all having the same tadpoles in our heads and the ability to basically read each other's thoughts or motivations, and to have empathy potentially. There are a bunch of ways that the PC might goof, agro the Grove by accident, and then Kagha will kill all the Tiefs and complete the rite of thorns. Say say a witless Durge, who even though they mean well, still gets everyone killed by accident. Karlach will have none of that. She's an archetypal barbarian so you'd think she'd maybe understand the whole being blinded by rage thing, or being misled by someone she trusted or getting duped into falling for a charlatan (in the form of Gortash, Zariel etc).
But then here's Minthara, who's not even being brainwashed into this really, so much as being dominated (effectively drugged) by Orin and Gortash, and we're meant to feel nothing about that? Even after we see the meta on it? Some of the best interactions in the whole game are between Minthara and Karlach on the same side, kicking the shit out of Gortash and Orin in the endgame, and putting the breaks on all that nonsense - but how as the player do you ever get to see that?
Currently there are only a couple workable options. The first is to play Karlach as an Origin, but then play her completely against type. Meaning that as the PC, you'd do all the stuff as Karlach, which Karlach as a companion would disapprove of or party break over. This is weird, and yet there is an incentive to play that way as Origin, simply to see something you haven't seen before. This is a bit more extreme than say Gale becomes a Barbarian, or Shadowheart and Lae'zel are star crossed lovers from the first meeting on the Nautiloid as Origins, but also rather similar. We can do all that stuff with those Origins too, playing against type to see content that otherwise would never be there, but for the characters of Karlach and Wyll this seems particularly messed up somehow. Probably because the other characters occupy that gray space where we're not sure exactly what they're about, even if ultimately (when you let them make their own choices, or follow the obvious prompts) that they will trend towards Hero. So that's the first way to see it, which also requires playing as a pre-set Origin.
The other way to see it is to spare Minthara, while somehow also saving the Tiefs from the goblins and Kagha. This is an ultra meta approach, in that nothing the player is being fed along the way will indicate that such a path might be the more heroic and self sacrificing approach down the line. The only PCs who will naturally find themselves in that position are when the party completely commits to non-lethal, almost from the start of the game, and even then only since the most recent patches. If you do this, then there is a redemptive path open to Minthara. Perhaps not the one that matches with her first hot take, but again, most people will not even catch this on the first run. It's a replay factor thing. Likely a replay after one has already tried going totally villainous too.
Why do we suppose that there are so many players (actually I have clue how many there really are) but who want to try so hard to recruit Minthara along the heroic path at that point? Is it perhaps because it's just the right thing to do? Like cause it gives a more satisfying hero's journey, even if the story would seem to push us in the opposite direction? That by trying to force the player the other direction with hard party breaks, some players will just always try to push back on that, because Minthara herself is compelling, and one of the only ways for the PC to express a true redemptive arc. An arc that isn't ultimately self serving and hypocritical if the shoe were on the other foot.
Then add to this, just little off hand remarks made here and there, which indicate that Minthara doesn't know that half those lines that were recorded probably never get delivered. We can't play as Minthara (as Origin) currently, so there's no playing her against type in the same way one might my play Wyll or Karlach against type. I think they're doing it backwards there. If you want the story to be more compelling the framing shouldn't be irredeemable villains who are born bad and stay that way no matter what we do, it should be flawed Hero's who can still fail if their cognitive dissonance pushes them to become overzealous or to grandstand about it or don a mask on it and just pretend with the blinders on. It's the reflexive holier than though thing and then turning to violence as the appropriate response that's sort of weaksauce. Nothing is more compelling to me than a character who used to think they knew it all and had complete confidence, coming around to realize the flaw in that way of thinking. So even though Karlach and her heart is framed as the martyr or the tragic sacrifice, I actually think it's Minthara who slots more naturally into that role. If it was Minthara who offered to become the Mindflayer, that would seem an even more impressive turnaround to me than say Orpheus (who we just met) or Karlach (who doesn't deserve that fate) or the PC, cause that would be a pretty big deal and a lot of character growth in a relatively short span of time if Minthara stepped up. Well maybe not, cause Minthara is half way there already, it's just that she's under the influence of malign forces outside her control, getting sold down the river by Orin and Ketheric unless the player intervenes to give her a chance.
Peeps I guess would say, why go through all those mental gymnastics to try and redeem the unsung hero of this game? But my thinking is like, how about all the mental gymnastics required for not doing that? Even with a charlatan background Tav, it would put me to the test. For Wyll his big test of character (which isn't much of a test) is to spare Karlach at a cost to himself which isn't much of a cost. By going along to get along, the good character gets everything and nothing challenges them or their worldview. Everyone just nods like yeah, of course, burn the witch, she's a wicked Drow! As if we learned nothing at all from Viconia whatsoever. And then Minthara tells us point blank that she'll never tire of sitting on dead men's thrones, and peeps are supposed to think she's the big bad, given all the messed up stuff the dead three and their chosen did to her? We need to make sure she dies or that everyone else has to, and she has to be literally knocked on the head? Seems sus. All I'm saying is that.
OK maybe not, cause I always more to say about Minthara! hehe
But legit, why is it that so often the reaction to player feedback is something like, don't trust your players when they tell you what they want, or stick to your guns don't change the narrative to appease the fans cause it can only make your game worse, as if all fanatics were the same? Some fans have better reasons than others, maybe. I'll go with maybe. Sorry I had to get that off my chest, cause I've had it with that take! I don't care about what Plutarch might have thought about Theseus' fucking ship, and Hobbes was an absolutist of the first order. That thought experiment isn't very interesting to me, well actually it is pretty interesting! I'm super glad someone finally brought it up! I kinda love this stuff! That framing between being & becoming, and what's more the thing? It makes us really put the thinking cap on and puzzle over some of these issues. BG3 is such a great way to discuss all kinds of interesting questions. It's a cool article, here's the link...
https://www.thegamer.com/baldurs-gate-3-ship-of-theseus-kissing-animations-minthara-patch/How about Ariadne builds the ship instead? or better yet they just dynamite barrel the gender binary tropes on that altogether, like a broadside from the port bow, just to piss Plutarch off and put him on blast hehe, cause that's another binary like good & evil, active & passive, and all the rest that are boring and have been fronted for like 2000 years now, harmful ideas that just kinda linger forever and become inescapable even worming into the language. BG3 has done much already to disrupt the usual framing and this is to the good on that front. It's an excellent first step. Give me something new! Something I haven't seen or heard before really. A new voice, a middle voice, maybe that voice!? Minthara's! Cause it's just so great!!! Something that can apply outside the game too for the expansion metaphor - then it's working. Games are tools to teach as much as they are to decompress and cut loose. It's cool when it aims for oath breaker wisdom as well and takeaways of that sort. I love this game! I love Minthara!
ps. sorry all that and I completely missed the point. The point would be - build a whole n' other ship! In other words - siding with the Grove or Camp that can still open a new path, that is still hidden or oblique, with Minthara and all that other stuff as the catalyst? Or both but with more parity. I hope they would do this with an expansion, by adding paths rather than closing them off, or paving over them. Or if we can't get that, then at least let us play dysfunctional Swiss Family Robinson with the pieces of the shipwreck in Acts I and Acts II somehow - cause by the time this becomes an important issue to anyone, let's be honest, they've either played the game already, or are already familiar with the meta on it, or it's a reload anyway. It's always great to experience a great story, but for this sort of thing, I want to help re-write the story as the player, while playing, on the next out. On the fly, cause that's BG/D&D for me. Doesn't have to be an amazing story or totally coherent if it's the riff, but just that when we get to weigh in like that as players via the set up and the systems, that has lasting appeal. Replay and party comp and all the stuff I like in a BG game or B flicks. Add to it, rather than replacing. Build some crazy tree fort on a shaky foundation in the sand for it as the player to revisit the story with the meta built into it somehow? I would show out for that like every weekend! lol
pps. kinda related not related, but also timeless and apropos. Shouldn't BG3 just have a riff on this? I mean in case this really was a first out and there are players who maybe never even caught that flick. This scene was probably scarier for me than anything in the Dark Crystal when I first checked it out as a kid, like that one and the Nome King from Return to Oz. Something about the claymation and grabby rocks that is just like the creepiest craziest analog. Sticks with me, that riddle with double doors, and instead it's a trap. We already have the Oubliette in this game and everything!
Something about Minthara taking on the Minotaurs in the Underdark!!!
I mean come on!!! How could we not want to see what that looks like? hehe
Counter point to the Labyrinth helping hands would maybe be the ones from this flick... lightin' em up! Like if Minthara somehow rode in on a Magnifique for the expansion but then just kept on riding, past the Emerald Gove and all that! Past the castle! Forget the woods! Basically at this point it just needs to not break the reel and melt the silver screen or be all cutting the ending into the middle by accident lol. Like if we can get that, I was having fun doing the silence trick to travel back in time a couple weeks ago. But obviously the silent era isn't quite I want. More like this...!
![[Linked Image from i.ibb.co]](https://i.ibb.co/p1LPn7y/vavava.png)
