Minthara is a member of a race Larian consistently paints as evil for being dark-skinned people.
Minthara is a member of a race Larian reduces to being nothing but "evil sex elves" out of exoticism and racism, and Minthara's entire characterization revolves around those attributes because being a non-human/elf equates to being non-white in the eyes of Larian's writers and thus defined entirely by Not Being White.
I can't imagine anyone seeing anything in Minthara that is even remotely interesting or likeable, unless one also subscribes to the racist notions that Larian's writers built her entire character, personality, and role in the story around.
Minthara is a member of a race Larian consistently paints as evil for being dark-skinned people.
Minthara is a member of a race Larian reduces to being nothing but "evil sex elves" out of exoticism and racism, and Minthara's entire characterization revolves around those attributes because being a non-human/elf equates to being non-white in the eyes of Larian's writers and thus defined entirely by Not Being White.
I can't imagine anyone seeing anything in Minthara that is even remotely interesting or likeable, unless one also subscribes to the racist notions that Larian's writers built her entire character, personality, and role in the story around.
So there's a lot that's been said about the drow relating to this, and there's plenty of discussion that's been had and is still being had to this day, but to not derail into all that, one thing I will point out is that all the baggage comes from D&D itself, Larian didn't originate it. They're just running with the established lore of the setting they were given. I'll knock Larian on plenty of things, but I don't think this is a fair one to lay at their feat.
Minthara is a member of a race Larian consistently paints as evil for being dark-skinned people.
Minthara is a member of a race Larian reduces to being nothing but "evil sex elves" out of exoticism and racism, and Minthara's entire characterization revolves around those attributes because being a non-human/elf equates to being non-white in the eyes of Larian's writers and thus defined entirely by Not Being White.
I can't imagine anyone seeing anything in Minthara that is even remotely interesting or likeable, unless one also subscribes to the racist notions that Larian's writers built her entire character, personality, and role in the story around.
So there's a lot that's been said about the drow relating to this, and there's plenty of discussion that's been had and is still being had to this day, but to not derail into all that, one thing I will point out is that all the baggage comes from D&D itself, Larian didn't originate it. They're just running with the established lore of the setting they were given. I'll knock Larian on plenty of things, but I don't think this is a fair one to lay at their feat.
Please lets not derail the thread with an obvious racism bullshit bait, REPORT and IGNORE. His comments in the last 2 hour are all just the same racism bullshit in threads for Astarion, Halsin, Lae'zel, Minthara here and Karlach.
Here's another of the 13 issues that are going to be covered for Minthara;
Unlike other companions who have wonderfully varied dialogue and greetings whether they're a love interest, a former flame or just exceptional friends, Minthara has zero variation in her greetings. Instead this one line is all that Minthara has for her character, regardless whether she's an exceptional friend or an actual love interest;
You wish to consult me?
You wish to consult me?
You wish to consult me?
You wish to consult me?
You wish to consult me?
You wish to consult me?
Compare this to Shadowheart who has at least x6 unique romantic greetings; x3 as a love interest and x3 as a former flame.
So there's a lot that's been said about the drow relating to this, and there's plenty of discussion that's been had and is still being had to this day, but to not derail into all that, one thing I will point out is that all the baggage comes from D&D itself, Larian didn't originate it. They're just running with the established lore of the setting they were given. I'll knock Larian on plenty of things, but I don't think this is a fair one to lay at their feat.
D&D itself has turned away from depictions of entire races as innately evil, especially when it comes to races explicitly labelled as "dark" parallels to those traditionally prominent among good-aligned characters and player characters. Larian had every opportunity to do the same, but instead relished in depicting all "dark" and foreign races as evil and backward, the race of oppressed peoples as criminals and leeches who deserve the scorn they receive, and fixating almost entirely on humans and elves among party and NPC representation as a parallel to white people.
We know blackface is racist nowadays. We wouldn't tolerate blackface in a video game with the excuse that blackface used to be acceptable. Larian wrote a game in which dark-skinned people are consistently either evil or associated with evil. A dark-skinned woman is the evil counterpart to a good-aligned white male character. The black spellcaster party member is someone who associated with devils to get his powers the lazy way, as opposed to the white spellcaster who wooed a goddess with his talent for magic. The two white-skinned characters returning from previous games are potential party members; the two dark-skinned characters returning from previous games are one-note villains.
They're never going to give any sort of significant romance content to Minthara, because they fundamentally do not see Minthara as being akin to a person they would have any respect for in a relationship. She is a sex object from a culture of sluts. That other people created the original drow culture based on racist ideology does not make Larian embracing said racist ideology acceptable.
So there's a lot that's been said about the drow relating to this, and there's plenty of discussion that's been had and is still being had to this day, but to not derail into all that, one thing I will point out is that all the baggage comes from D&D itself, Larian didn't originate it. They're just running with the established lore of the setting they were given. I'll knock Larian on plenty of things, but I don't think this is a fair one to lay at their feat.
I think Larian stated at some point (or was it their ceo?) that they were given a lot of freedom when it came to d&d. And well, they did rewrite the mind flayer lore, including a character like Omeluum who is unlike others of his kind. So I don't think they were really that tied into writing Minthara as evil.
Another pretty significant issue that Larian is entirely ignoring for 7 months now;
Every single companion, with the exception of Minthara as usual, has their full relationship dialogue available, filled with interesting tidbits that solidify the romance. Minthara on the other hand is the only companion that does not have a relationship dialogue whatsoever nor any romantic responses.
There is simply no excuse for this blatant favoritism of everyone except Minthara.
Another example of having zero fail-safes put in place for Minthara's scenes;
Just like Minthara's judgement scene at Moonrise not having a single fail-safe put in place to take into account if the player never met her or even joined her in ACT I, there is also not a single fail-safe put in place for Minthara's scene with Sazza in ACT I if Minthara has already been met prior to rescuing Sazza. Because of this Minthara will be acting as if this is the first time she's meeting the player, like a forgetful amnesiac despite already fully talking with the player about locating the Grove.
*Here's how a few simple tweaks make the scene make sense if the player already met Minthara prior to rescuing Sazza*
*For the record Halsin's introductory scene has 3 different variations depending on whether the player visited the Grove, hasn't been to the Underdark yet or has already been to the Underdark... no such care is given to Minthara*
Oh i was so glad i could finally recruit her in my 4th playthrough! To immediately be dissappointed. Apart from her not remembering my char, (well, i have imagination, lets think she didnt remember because they meddled with her brain). There's this bug i got where her body dissappears. Im sure you already know. Im sorry, i gave her armor to Astarion in act I (but put back everything else, i swear!). So her inventory is now bugged. Her music instrument, mace and armor are not there, but she has everything else duplicated.
She got a body back when i gave her new armor, but i had to level up a floating HEAD. I submitted a bug report, but *sighs* her dialog is busted too. I really wanted to meet her, she looks so cool, and the little non bugged dialog i got is interesting!
Also she evicted Halsin and adopted Thaniel? Her tent is so nice too, underdark-y themed. Probably my favorite looking tent.
If so, it's also on my list of issues that will be covered for Minthara. In any case I'm sorry that you're disappointed, rest assured that every single person here is as well with her situation.
If so, it's also on my list of issues that will be covered for Minthara. In any case I'm sorry that you're disappointed with Minthara, rest assured that every single person here is as well.
Yes, that is exactly it! Did you get the duplicate items too? I dunno when started happening, but before you could pick just *some* items from certain characters, but now you can only "loot all". Putting things back maybe break it more.
I am not dissapointed at her, just at the situation
Yup, sorry for the confusion. Was actually referring to her overall situation, but I worded it quite poorly
This whole situation with Larian completely neglecting her and injecting content for literally every other companion except her is just depressingly absurd, because despite how terribly buggy, broken and unfinished she is, she's a fascinatingly well-written character even in her current barebones state.
Yet another example of complete lack of care towards Minthara's scenes;
Minthara's judgement scene at Moonrise Towers has absolutely no fail-safes in place to take into account never meeting her, never joining her in battle or knocking her out. The scene at Moonrise Towers does not react to any of these variables whatsoever, instead the dialogue is forced to refer to meeting and joining Minthara against the Grove, despite the player never doing that.
*The player should not know she's a loyal servant of the Absolute if they never met her to begin with.*
*Naturally one may assume the avatar is merely 'pretending' to know her, however that is simply not true due to the fact they know details in the very next dialogue*
*Here's a quick showcase proving that skipping entire ACT I by going straight to Moonrise Towers will still have the player acting as if they met and joined Minthara*
It's heartbreaking that after all this time even minor things are not properly addressed. Even in her broken state, I still consider Minthara a far more intriguing companion and Tav's lover compared to any other companion in this game. But honestly? With each passed month I lose hope more and more...
So here is my raw feedback so far which I will naturally be formatting and eventually posting fully detailed and visualized once I collect all the footage, but wanted to share it here for those who are interested to look through it and mention if I missed anything or if anything else needs to be added or changed.
Keep in mind that this is literally the BARE MINIMUM Larian would have to address to even remotely consider Minthara an actual companion and even an actual love interest;
ISSUES THAT NEED FIXING
If the player already met Minthara prior to rescuing Sazza, Minthara will act as if she never met the player during her scene with Sazza.
Minthara's judgement scene at Moonrise Towers doesn't have any fail-safe in place to account for variables such as never meeting her in ACT I, never joining her for the raid or fighting her. Instead the scene pushes forward the narrative as if the player met her and joined her, despite never doing so.
Minthara has zero variation to her greetings when she's approached, as her one and only greeting is the constantly repeated "You wish to consult me?" line.
If Minthara dies even while she's an active member of the party, other companions will still be triggering their ACT I mocking banter about her corpse.
When Minthara officially becomes a love interest in ACT II's finale, she does not have any romance scene that very night nor the morning after, despite clearly implying the night is supposed to be romantic and sexual.
As a love interest Minthara is missing her romantic personality when she's approached by the player.
As a love interest Minthara is missing her romantic greetings. She only uses her single "You wish to consult me?" neutral line.
As a love interest Minthara is missing her relationship dialogue branch. She can't be asked how she feels nor can the player break up with her.
Minthara's dialogue branch about Dark Urge's violent urges becomes unavailable due to a bug with Sceleritas Fel when he approaches Dark Urge about killing Isobel.
Despite Minthara fully admiring, supporting and being incredibly vocal about Dark Urge seizing their legacy, she has nothing to say to Dark Urge if they become eternally cursed by Bhaal or freed of Bhaal, after Orin is dead. Considering how much she loves Dark Urge and how much she is against being dominated, it is against her character to not have anything to say to her lover about it.
When Minthara is recruited to the camp via the optional knockout method, she and Halsin are sharing the same camp spot. She deserves her own place.
Minthara's parts of her body (torso, arms and feet) are missing in the leveling menu if she's doesn't have those equipment slots equipped.
REQUIRED IMPROVEMENTS
Sazza's quest - If the player met Minthara before ever meeting Sazza, the dialogue with Sazza should reflect this as the player already knows who the Drow at the Goblin Camp is. Currently the quest has zero fail-safe in place if this happens, so the player is acting like a dummy who doesn't know who Minthara is.
Knockout recruitment - Just like Mother Superior in ACT III, Minthara should automatically be knocked out in battle once her HP is dropped to 0, thus allowing the player to either spare her or kill her through a cutscene that would solidify her optional recruitment as an actual piece of lore and not just a shoddily put together recruitment that players still consider 'unofficial' despite being made official.
Minthara's 'True Soul Of The Absolute' title - This title under Minthara's name HAS TO BE REMOVED once she's recruited. She is an abducted victim who was lured to Moonrise through an elaborate master plan by Ketheric, forcibly dominated against her will by Orin to be her personal pet and then later became traumatized by the whole experience to the point she's cripplingly afraid of Orin.
Having that title pinned under her name is literally using her traumatizing victimhood against her to falsely accuse and misrepresent her as something she is not, as she never wanted to be a True Soul whatsoever.
REQUIRED ADDITIONS
Minthara Doesn't Have Any Personal Quest
Unlike Halsin who actually has an actual constructed personal quest with multiple outcomes and meaningful consequences on ACT II's overall story while taking numerous details into account, Minthara does not have any actual personal quests whatsoever because her "quest" is literally piggybacking off of the unavoidable main quest villains Ketheric and Orin who can't even be avoided anyway, as well as Dark Urge's personal quest.
Therefore she has absolutely zero influence on the story nor has any meaningful personal payoff for herself as a character, because having her or not having her in the party changes absolutely nothing about these characters or the story in general... unlike other companions whose personal stories have significant outcomes and payoffs for their own characters.
She needs something unique her own or she needs to be far more integrated into Dark Urge's personal quest so she can grow as a character together with Durge, something that makes her stand out just like Halsin stands out and has a meaningful outcome for her as a character. Her presence needs to have an effect on the story and characters related to her, especially once Orin is dead. It needs to open a new chapter for her, which she currently does not have whatsoever.
Minthara Doesn't Have Any Romantic Scenes
Apart from the numerous issues mentioned above which make Minthara pitifully barren both as a companion and a love interest, she is the only companion who does not have a single romantic scene or action outside of the one and only scene in ACT I.
Unlike other companions who have numerous romantic scenes throughout all three acts allowing the player to sit down and truly connect with them, like Shadowheart or Karlach; sitting by the campfire, having a love scene in ACT II, chirping happily like a bird the next morning, bursting out of joy when she's told she's loved, the funny dinner date etc... or Shadowheart who has multiple romantic scenes throughout all acts and even the ability to receive gifts like the Shar statuette or a Night Orchid or even being hugged when she's crying...
Minthara literally does not have any resemblance of an actual romance whatsoever. There's not a single moment where the player just sits down with Minthara and enjoys her company to allow connecting with her on a deeper level, zero romantic scenes and zero affectionate actions that are initiated by her alone.
It's honestly disturbing how Minthara's entire cinematic romance (who is an incredibly loyal, devoted and caring love interest once she's a free woman) is just her one and only romance scene in ACT 1 where she's at her most vulnerable traumatized state as the Absolute's dominated & brainwashed victim, literally making the whole event being no different than having sex with someone who's vulnerably drunk/drugged and completely unaware of themself and their surroundings, which is precisely what's happening to Minthara during that entire scene.
An enslaved brainwashed woman who is attracted and in heat for all the wrong reasons, taken advantage of as she's terribly confused, afraid and even being deceived by both the Absolute and the player in that very moment, born out of events she does not even remember because that wasn't her raiding the Grove in ACT I. A victim who even says during the love scene while she's still being partially dominated that she does not even know who she is, feeling like a stranger from another lifetime... so why is the pinnacle of her cinematic romance a moment in which she's a dominated brainwashed victim. It's extremely disturbing.
She needs newly added romance scenes in ACT II and ACT III to allow the player to explore and connect with her character on a deeper level, she needs more romantic actions that expand her character and personality (examples below), and possibly a newly discovered hobby in Baldur's Gate so she has something going for her as a companion. She loves banquets, she loves food from the Underdark, she loves her homeland and even misses it, she relates to felines a lot and there are a ton of cats in Baldur's Gate, yet all of these aspects of her personality are learned from random comments she throws out, instead of learned by sitting down with her and truly getting to know her and explore her character, like all the other companions.
Her ACT I love scene should have fail-safes in place to ensure a modified version of it once she's a free woman can trigger later in ACT II if the player never romanced her in ACT I (either by never meeting her, knocking her out or simply refusing to have sex with a dominated victim).
In ACT II she needs to have a love scene when she officially becomes a love interest, so she can finally as a FREE WOMAN enjoy true genuine feelings of pure love, passion and trust with her romantic partner, something she NEVER got to experience in life due to her backstabbing culture that forced her to be so distrustful of everyone.
In ACT III she needs to have numerous romance scenes/actions to solidify her as a love interest and allow the player to explore deeper layers of her personality so they can truly connect with her. As noted by examples of Shadowheart and Karlach who have so many romantic scenes and actions which they themselves initiate even so the player can connect with them, Minthara has absolutely no such scenes at all in ACT III nor does she even act as if she's romantically involved for the entirety of ACT III (with the exception of 3 unique encounters that aren't even her own; the Dryad, the Nymph and the Drow twins).
She literally does not refer to the player as "love" at all until the very finale of the game after the Emperor pulls the party into the Astral Prism as they fail to use the Netherstones against the Absolute.
An example Of New Romantic Scenes & Actions;
Minthara Reacting To The Player's Honesty Or Deceit From ACT I Romance Scene
When Minthara becomes terribly conflicted, confused and even afraid when she no longer hears the Absolute's voice due to the artefact in ACT I, the player at that point can either be honest with Minthara or deceive her about the artefact, which makes her react differently the next morning. However she never reacts to this later in the story once she's free.
Minthara learns the actual truth about this the moment she escapes Moonrise, so it would be a fantastic attention to detail to have Minthara react on whether the player always had her best interests in mind even when she was so vulnerable. Being honest in ACT I could unlock new unique affectionate dialogue, scene or even approval for her in ACT II. After all honesty is the very core of Minthara's romance, so it feels weird she never ever reacts, confronts nor acknowledges the player's actions while she was in a vulnerable state.
Impressing Minthara With A Dinner
One of Minthara's biggest regrets as an 'independent Drow' (to the uninitiated; it means exile of Lolth) is having to eat bland surface food instead of her favorite spiced Ulaver wine and thinly sliced rothe steak.
Other companions have so many romantic scenes and romantic actions, whereas Minthara has none... so as a start it would be great if the player could come across these delicacies somewhere in Baldur's Gate and by doing so spend a night with Minthara enjoying a nice cozy romantic dinner and getting to know each other some more as she's made somewhat relaxed and reminded of home, as she struggles with her fear of Orin.
Baelen & Derrith Bonecloak after all constantly venture into the Underdark and have a Rothe with them, so why not have them or any shop next to them have rothe meat that could trigger a dinner with Minthara.
Minthara's Feline Nature
A wonderful mostly-unknown trait of Minthara's personality is that she relates a lot to the nature of felines, something she herself outright says in ACT III by how she hates being wet and how she would scratch the eyes of anyone annoying her. Why not play more into this aspect of her personality by having her adopt a feline and comment more about cats around Baldur's Gate, so she has something going for her character in ACT III. Something that brings out her charmingly caring personality more, something the player themselves can connect to while they're with her. Because she is incredibly caring and affectionate about things she enjoys, hell she even likes Scratch enough she'd raid the kennels to save him if the main character gives him up.
She simply needs something because as wonderfully written as she is; due to her massive lack of content the player does not get to truly connect with her because she has no situations where they're given a chance to just sit down and relax and do something with her... unlike with Shadowheart or Karlach or literally any other companion. There need to be scenes that would open parts of her personality and make her lively by her initiating scenes on her own, not just being a robot that follows and occasionally reacts to random stuff.
This would be a start of actually making her a proper companion and not just a pitiful ignored husk with broken non-existent content that's been left to gather dust for more than 2 years now, with zero love, care and attention given to her.
Beautifully written and on point with how she could and needs to be improved and given the "origin" character treatment, it is a massive undertake and is likely months away from becoming reality or even longer to see changes of this size so I hope you are mentally prepared for the road ahead, I would love to be proven wrong by seeing her get more solidified much sooner.
The one infamous dialogue that leads us into thinking a romantic scene should happen after rescuing in Act 2 I see one minor improvement you could include, by having it become Act 2 exclusive dialogue, unless Larian has a way to organically have background of a scene change if players choose to trigger it later in Act 3 instead, it would have to be moved into the romance dialogue tree whcih we all know she is lacking, assuming this is how game structures the origin characters.
I have struggled to get on here with that infamous gateway 504 non-sense but I cant think of what else to add right now that hasn't already been mentioned endlessly.
That idea with the automatic knock-out is a good one, especially since it puts another save-guard in against her accidentally dying when things get a little out of hand - as they tend to if you accidentally upset the whole camp.
One of Larian’s latest tweets suggests that they may be doing something with Minthara in the next hotfix. However, it looks like it might be a very tiny thing, which may not satisfy the folks here. Hopefully they will also fix her broken reactivity. They say that the hotfix will likely be coming out this week. I’ll quote their tweet:
“Our next hotfix is undergoing final testing, and we’re aiming to release it this week.
Among other fixes, Hotfix #20 solves an issue where Minthara would sometimes stop following the party in Act II and III. Keep up, minty.
We'll update you all when it’s ready for release!”
A lot of great suggestions there. I also like the idea with the knock-out recruitment and I'm mighty tired to ask for consultment (and I really hope they are fixing the Emperor line bug ASAP!).
To the things that need fixing I want to add that she is still stuck in her "grove attack" persona crying "For the Abslute!" in every fight up until the ending.
About the Act 2 romance dialogue I'd be happy if they at least concluded that one with a kissing animation and fade to black. Right now it just cuts off when you expect more happening.
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