Larian Studios Forums Baldur's Gate III Baldur's Gate III - Suggestions & Feedback The Emperor, The Ending, and that IGN Article (SPOILERS)

Jars you cannot destroy, might I add!

*team Omeluum*

@KillerRabbit


I completely agree about fully developing these paths. I linked a thread by @Jewel in my original post, and while we disagree on a number of things, I really like their idea of developing a trust vs distrust path, and I think they did a great job of explaining that a trust path is not equivalent to agreeing with The Emperor on everything. Given that we are forced to contend with The Emperor until the very end when we make our final choice of who to side with, I think anything that further develops a real relationship, whether as an ally, a romance, or an enemy, with push and pull is essential.


There's another post in this thread that brings up the idea of The Emperor influencing your thoughts and decisions without you knowing, and I don't believe there's any evidence in the game of this, either narrative of gameplay wise. There are times in the game where the pc's thoughts are being influenced and it's made explicitly clear. The dying mind flayer in the beginning of act 1 is "forcing you to love it," if you play Haarlep's "game" the dubious nature of the pc's consent is clear in the narration and the ability checks you need to make to resist, and even the astral tadpole influences you through it's ability to commune with the tadpole you already have. Raphael is also very much trying to manipulate the pc and get them to side with him, and he may very well believe that you're being charmed. He also tells you at one point that you'll be sucking on The Emperor's tentacles forever unless you side with him to free Orpheus. He may very well believe that even though it isn't true. He's also not the only one to call you a thrall. Astarion does at one point despite knowing that you're not and presumably knowing that neither is he. Ansur calls you a thrall despite taking over your body and it being pretty clear your not.

As far as storing the tadpoles in jars, this seems more like an element of gameplay to me. The writers were pretty adamant about the player undergoing some level of ceremorphosis. I think the fact that we can store them in jars and never once use them is a good indication for me that it's a gameplay element. I think it would be really interesting if we always had the choice to destroy the tadpoles or to keep them. That would certainly give more role play options for players.

One thing I found frustrating about the IGN article, was teasing out the intentions of the writers with what we actually find in the game. This could come down to disunity in the writer's room as talked about earlier in this thread, but we may never know for sure. They also say that The Emperor never lies, which isn't exactly true. I go more in depth about that in my original post, but for example, showing up as the Dream Guardian is a lie even though I believe that The Emperor's decision to do so is both understandable and sympathetic.

I can definitely see where the relationship feels complete for you and I know a lot of players feel the same. I'm not going to comment on Decent into Avernus since I haven't played it, but satisfied or not with how his relationship was with Belynne post stroke, there's still textual clues that she was not his thrall from day one. While I'm under the impression that he's mourning more than her passing, even if he isn't, my original post was that she was more to him than a means to an end, and I think that's pretty clear in this scene even among the various dialogue choices.


As far as him simulating emotions in the pc, I highly doubt that's what's happening here because the game has always been explicit whenever something like that is happening. It's made very clear through the narration that the illithid "forcing you to love it" is manipulating your emotions, and your given the opportunity to react accordingly. In the scene with Haarlep if you choose to play the "game" he's proposing, again the narration is very clear that he's manipulating your emotions and your will. The player has to make skill checks to break free from this. The dubious nature of your consent in this scene is made quite explicit. Another example is the astral tadpole. We know that tadpoles communicate with and influence one another, and that influence is made explicit when you have to make a wisdom save to reject it. For The Emperor to simulate emotions in the pc without any indication from the narration that that's what he's doing, no skill checks or anything, I see no evidence to suggest that's what going on. During the romance scene the Narrator will tell you specifically that you're feeling what he's feeling and there are multiple times to change your mind about going forward (just like in other romance interactions), and if you do change your mind, he says that he understands and moves on.


The Emperor asking the player to reconsider their physical form, while also expressing care and enjoyment of their company are not mutually exclusive. He can both care about the pc and also want them to embrace transformation. Transformation is something that he never forces on the pc. As far as the line about adapting methods, I do completely understand where that can be interpreted as an admission of insincerity, but that's not the only interpretation that I think a player can come to in good faith. In the missives there's a bit of a theme of how The Emperor communicates as an illithid vs. the method of communication through letter writing, so adapting his methods doesn't necessarily mean "acting human" in the sense of faking emotions or having no sincerity. I do admit that I think this line is left intentionally vague to make the player question exactly what you bring up.


So there are four possible missives, and I had to reread them because it's been a little while.

If you don't transform, The Emperor calls you an ally, thanks you for the invite, and wants to continue to be allies as he rebuilds his old life.

If you transform but choose not to join him and instead "do some good" in the world, he sounds very dejected in his letter, almost petty about your choice. He expresses how he wants you to embrace your "evolution" in time and ends it by saying "and when that time comes, call on me. My mind will be ever open to you."

If you transform and join him in rebuilding The Knights of The Shield, his letter is about setting up the new headquarters and his language is explicit that he now sees it as not his but "ours." He also talks about finding comfort in your allies but also to not hold on to the past.

If you transform and tell him that you need to think bigger and achieve more, this is where you get the reference of contacts (possible thralls, though I don't know how that would work since they're in a different city entirely). This is also where you find the line: "Make merry with your former allies, for we may yet have need of them. Keep them close, and wait for my word." However, the missive in its entirety reads like a partnership. I don't see anything in the letter that indicates to me that he's calling all the shots. He's out making business connections while you're at a celebration and it's basically just an update on that. I think it's worth mentioning that it's the pc's idea to go bigger because you're both mind flayers, which then leads to this massive alliance of black market syndicates.



I addressed most of this above, but I'll add that I don't think it's mutually exclusive for him to be interested in business dealings and also his relationship with mind flayer Tav since the two missives you mention here are from a transformation ending.

The quote you mention from the first dream, I admit in all my play throughs I have never seen that one. I know at the end of act 2 he tells you to gather allies to your cause, but the line above is one I haven't seen. I also haven't seen any dialogue with him about going to the Underdark. I know that's something you can propose to Astarion in one of romance endings, but I've never seen that dialogue with The Emperor.

I don't think his apparent lack of interest in Omeluum is relevant here. You meet Omeluum long before knowing the Dream Guardian is The Emperor, so I don't know why he would comment on him then. As far as saving him later, I don't think it's relevant to The Emperor. He doesn't comment on much, so I don't think it says much that he doesn't comment on Omeluum. He communes with another criminal because it's the ending where he and Tav become these powerful criminals. The Emperor is not good aligned. I know some will argue that he's neutral, however, I personally disagree. I believe he's evil, but that doesn't mean that he has no nuance.


This is true. He does support our actions whatever they may be because of everything that's at stake, but he admires leadership and expresses that when the pc shows leadership skills. The player can make of that what they will.


In the ending he'll leave out of a matter of safety. The city was practically destroyed by an elder brain and its illithid thralls, so getting out of there is important. That aside, the solo ending in which he confesses that you've become important to him I think is really telling. The Emperor has an implicit and explicit desire for compatibility, and I can completely see where he can care about the pc and bond with them, but have doubts about the territory of a relationship with a non illithid. If there were to ever be a more fleshed out romance with The Emperor, I would love to see this kind of dynamic addressed. He believes being an illithid is an evolution, yet he's bonded with a non illithid and that's some really interesting territory to explore.

I'm not entirely sure what you mean by "all the little nice sentences are reserved only for the group leader who didn't commune with the astral tadpole" as he's quite complimentary when you take the astral tadpole. I don't agree with the theory about him showing himself half naked because his outfit is intimidating. I don't recall him ever mentioning his outfit. He's half naked in the romance scene because for him, you getting the githyanki out of his home and him sharing his personal artifacts with you is a bonding moment for him. I'm also not entirely sure what you mean by the three references. He tries to persuade the pc to take the astral tadpole and makes reassurances about changes to their physical form. If you offer to become a mind flayer, he'll tell you what that means and asks you if you really want that.

I know I mentioned this above, but I think it's worth saying again that I don't think The Emperor is a good-aligned character, and I don't think he needs to be to fill a romantic role in the story. I said in my original post that the pc is a means to an end but not only a means to an end. You can even have this exact dialogue exchange before the romance scene if you tell him that you sound like an experiment to him. It's a common trope for relationships of utility to turn romantic, so this is pretty well-worn territory from a storytelling perspective. One of the things I find interesting about a romance with The Emperor is that he ticks a lot of the boxes for what you tend to find in monster romances and romances in which the romantic lead is a villain or some kid of predator (like a vampire for example). There's a narrative tension between the characters where one is considered weaker. However, very often the "weaker" partner in this dynamic becomes stronger through this relationship and whatever possible power or danger the "stronger" partner has is secondary to their bond and feelings for their partner. The writers laid a good foundation for this kind of dynamic in a romance with The Emperor, but again, it just feels incomplete.

i think that you must judge emperor with his behavior not his words.

for emperor, he put his survive in the hightest point, allies are tools, emperor doesn't mind if one day his allies might be turned to puppets for his survive.

I’ve written at length about The Emperor’s actions and words in the original post on this thread as well as in replies, and I do address the most controversial elements of his character.

no, i don't think you point it out.

or you don't still say the words -- "there's still textual clues that belynne was not his thrall from day one.".

in the fact, belynne is emperor's thrall after the day emperor enslave her.

He has no interest in lying about everything, but he may amplify what he chooses to share. I no longer believe in the supposed objectivity of the narrator since the encounter with the Guardian at the Creche, due to the lie despite the insight check. It's conditional, but the Emperor is already lying, if only by his demeanour. Doing this with such assurance and to have it confirmed by the narrator casts doubt on everything that is truly perceived:
"There's no lie. I would never lie to you.
Narrator: *In spite of your reservations, he's telling the truth.*"
Moreover, she does not always remain in her place, such as when she comments in the Emperor's rejection event: "As you drift into sleep, you feel a certain disappointment. The mind flayer was very quick to abandon its attentions on you."
It's totally biased, but I hold onto this certainty when we encounter Raphael at the brothel: "Narrator: For the first time since the nautiloid, your mind is clear. It's... unsettling." at the side of the Meticulous Notes (https://bg3.wiki/wiki/Meticulous_Notes)


He doesn't force us to finalize the process, but he truly expects us to claim it ourselves after he has given everything to convince us.
To human Tav on the dock: "And in spite of your resistance to (completing your) evolution - you have proved a good ally."


"I have made the necessary adjustments to my headquarters - our headquarters." I perceive the correction he brings as a way to assert the place is strictly his own, while indicating that our presence is "indefinitely" welcome, rather than treating it as a mistake he spontaneously rectified. The way it's phrased also gives me the impression that he will be responsible for redesigning the construction plans beneath the tavern and defining more of its accesses, not just for the "necessary adjustments". And due to our absence, there is a significant likelihood of needing to further enhance the foundations of what he has established rather than reaching consensus on new initiatives.
He shares his intentions in both letters addressed to illithid Tav, but at no point does he involve us in the process (using "we" is the least he does), nor does he mention waiting for our return to validate certain points, despite the possibility that our avatar may have submitted some before embarking on their journey 6 months ago.


If Tav is present with their companions on the dock, the only choice that unlocks the endings with the Emperor is: "I'm a mind flayer. I'll do whatever I please." Choosing to hide, in the Underdark and Cie, prompts a comment from him, but he does not offer hosting (except for Karlach? Then why?)


The Emperor did not react during the adventure because he was focused on a single goal. However in the end, he might have desired a closer relationship with Omeluum because he is part of a "scholars network", possesses knowledge that could be useful, and has also evolved away from the influence of an Elder Brain. Whatever bond the Emperor forms with humans, I don't believe it could ever replace what he could forge with another illithid.


Sorry for inaccuracy, I'm referring to the additional sentences we receive in certain scenes, at least the following ones:
"You have shown me great empathy. We are closer now, close enough - I hope - that I can ask you to reconsider your position regarding your physical form."
"I know it is no easy choice for you […] accept just a touch of illithidness. […] the more illithid we both are."
"You should reconsider your attachment to your physical form. You have seen what an illithid can do. You have experienced the pleasure for yourself. It would make us even more compatible."

If we are already half-illithid, theses sentences are not replaced by other dialogues or opportunities to share something with him. He couldn't care less even if he is satisfy that we are taking this path.


Indeed it's not stated, I believe this because the choice of camera angle is consistently oriented towards reinforcing the intimidating aspect of this character (more "neutral" angle in scenes where he appears vulnerable and only one overhead view, I think, when he is cornered by the Gith), and the fact our avatar regularly has a bewildered, somewhat frightened expression in interactions with him, while over time, an increasing number of responses invite to humanize him.
I interpret this as a deliberate narrative to play with our expected fear, then gradually draw us closer to him. It would have been probably easier for him to keep coming as the Guardian anyway, but the fact that he doesn't appear half-naked initially in this form might mean he intends to pack the experience that he is about to offer to his Illithid nature rather than just a "gift" or sharing moment.
He could have communicated positive, inspiring thoughts from the perspective of an illithid, or to demonstrate a method to solve a problem that seemed insoluble while he were working with Stelmane, but he chose to speak of memories of his "former self" and revealed his illithid side only as a threat if the conversation turned sour. It's as if he didn't want to give a chance to be known (even to a half-illithid avatar) yet simultaneously having to make the last effort pushing further the leader to align with his desires.
(Given the narrative presented, it seems that players are expected to strongly resist using the tadpoles, particularly the one from the Astral plane.)

I may perceive a sort of dissociation between how the Emperor is portrayed on screen and how is depicted through the text's construction, considering how he delivers information and acts. It's as if each team involved in its creation had only partial information and steered it in the direction of their interpretation. Swen and those who worked on the Emperor's personality undoubtedly encountered significant challenges in ensuring its preservation throughout the entire project.

I’ve written at length about their relationship based on what I can reasonably conclude from the text (being the game). I definitely address her being his thrall and I address his actions in relation to the pc and companions. Unless there is something very specific you’re looking for, I believe I’ve been plenty thorough in my analysis.

This really seems like a reach to me. There's nothing in there about an indefinite welcome, and redesigning the headquarters is brought up in the context of making it work for two mind flayers who cannot freely roam the city. There's nothing in there to suggest they did or did not discuss any of these changes beforehand, and that's the same with the whole part about validating points. There's just nothing in there as to whether they did or did not discuss certain things. I encourage people to read these missives on their own. I know you'll probably disagree with me, but this strikes me as an uncharitable reading of the missives at best based on little to no evidence to support it.


I can't comment extensively on this specific dialogue, but one thing I will say is that I don't think a single line of dialogue undermines the entirety of my analysis into this character and his relationship to the pc. Lot's of things about the ending were rushed, maybe that has something to do with it? Maybe he truly has no interest in the Underdark? The ending of the game has many forks depending on various encounters, dialogue choices, actions, etc. I don't have a concrete answer here. What I will say is that when I wrote my analysis of this character, I drew on the larger picture of the character as a whole, or at least as whole as I could possibly get. I believe this whole picture shows us a complex and humanizing view of The Emperor and his relationship to the pc.


Having The Emperor comment on Omeluum could be interesting, but Omeluum is part of the Society of Brilliance and The Emperor is part of a black market syndicate. I don't see where his lack of interest in them is particularly surprising or significant. As far as his bond with a human (or elf, half-elf, dwarf, etc.) I've already mentioned the solo ending in which he confesses that the pc is important to him, and while it's possible he never could forge the same kind of bond with a human, it's not impossible that his bond with a human could be just as important to him if different than the bond he could have with another illithid. What I like so much about the solo ending is that The Emperor has this vulnerable moment with a human who wasn't his thrall, wasn't a source of food, wasn't merely a means to an end, and it's new to him. This opens up some wonderful potential for additional writing should the game ever have a definitive edition. Believe it or not, a lot of fans of The Emperor recognize that a cross-species relationship with an illithid would likely play out differently than a romance with one of the companion characters. Speaking for myself, I can absolutely see a fleshed out romance in which the pc has more relationship building moments with The Emperor, but if they don't transform at the end, their relationship remains less defined and more open ended because this is such new territory for both of them, but especially The Emperor. And that could still be a very compelling and satisfying romance to tell.


It's true that there is less dialogue if the pc takes the astral tadpole, but it's not that there's no dialogue at all. He is very complementary when you embrace any tadpole powers, and overtly complementary when you take the astral tadpole. It would be nice to have additional dialogue options, but assuming it's because he couldn't care less, I would say is another uncharitable reading of the text. I don't think there's anything to suggest he couldn't care less when he's been wanting you to embrace the tadpole powers since act 1.


I think I kind of understand what you're saying here. I think this is a good time to maybe talk a bit more about his role as a monster in the narrative. Monsters in stories always represent some kind of anxiety for the audience. That doesn't mean that they aren't also a unique character. The Emperor, as an illithid, is supposed to represent our own fears of becoming a monster, of body horror, of losing ourselves. What makes The Emperor so interesting is that he is so much more than just a monster even if he has done monstrous things. He's this regal and intimidating figure, but he's also capable of vulnerability. We are meant to challenge our perception of a monster and also ourselves. I think to interpret this as some kind of 4-D chess strategy on The Emperor's part is to not understand how these kinds of narratives are generally structured and progress. Also, I just have to add that he appears half naked because this is very obvious seduction scene. Astarion does the same thing early on when he comes out of the forest Twilight-style to seduce Tav. (I'm not saying that's a bad thing, those books were wildly popular for a reason).


I've talked about how I believe there was discordance in the writer's room, though I can only speculate on the extent. I likely won't be adding anything else to this thread because I do feel like I've said everything I need to. I believe I've made a wholistic, thorough, and well-supported analysis. There's no possible way I will be able to change the minds of everyone who reads my original post and responses, (that's an impossible standard anyway), but I hope that those reading this will be able to see The Emperor in a different light than perhaps they were able to before.

Also, I hope I made a compelling argument as to why we need more choices when it comes to that critical decision of who to side with at the end of game.