Larian Studios Forums Baldur's Gate III Baldur's Gate III - Story & Character Discussion Please Larian, Rewrite or Delete [ACT 3 SPOILERS] (very long with spoilers)

Anyway, just come here to say in recent days I found even BG3's Viconia wiki page acknowledges how Viconia's actions in BG3 precisely contradict her previous motives and personal traumas.

It's a bit funny because I have seen a similar wiki page of another character, and that's Lucian from Divinity series. Recently a Divinity fan told me she shares my pain and how she despises DOS2, because Larian had made Lucian, a previous PC character, into a genocider and main villain in DOS2, and in the end the player will have to choose if they gonna "forgive" Lucian for his crimes or not (especially Ifan). I only knew the second part, and I have enjoyed DOS2, but now I'm not sure if I gonna play it again.

Seriously Larian, solve this. You won't want to make "making old characters punching bags in the next game" a tradition, the number of players you lost because of this is building up. Right now I have little faith that the writers would do Viconia & Sarevok right, so just remove them, or change their names, or make them doppelgangers. You can write whatever new characters you want, nobody will stop you, is it so hard to just leave old characters and good things alone?

Well i Played a Lot the other two Games and indeed there are some weird stuff here in BG3..
But i tolaret this Things.. becouse i always knew from the start the any choice i ever made in BG2,BG1 were no probably the Canon Ones..
And in the Future this will Happen with this Game.. if yu really think that the Good ending for all the companions will be the Canon..
Thing Twice.. i always felt that the Bad endings here will be the Canon in the future.. especially becouse of Wizards of the cost..
Most of the Good endings here will change a Lot the Original Lore of the Sword Cost and Forgotten realms overalll
and they even Made some Hard Canon Brake stuff already with Karsus..
Like Karsus did not make a Crow guys.. really larian ?!
yu are just Making the dude a lot weaker the he really was.. Karsus Made a Spell not a Crow. to steal the power of a God.
He was the One and Only Mage that ever existed in the entire Dungeons and Dragons to Make a 12 lvl spell
Yu cannot understand how Powerfull he really was.. Becouse Mistry cut the Balls of all Mages when he try to take her Power.
Made impossible for any other Wizard even be able to Try what he did.. if im not Wrong Nobody nowadays Besides her Chosen Can cast a 10 lvl spell.

So the point im trying to bring up is This..
Maybe just Maybe the Choises yu Made in the Other Games yu Think its the Canon one.. But nop.
It wasant.. it was Canon only to your Game get it ?!

Okay, looks like we're back to square one once again. May I recommend you to read previous discussions in this thread, or other related threads on reddit? Many valid points were made there. But to put it in simple words:


In-universe, it's not about players' past choices, it's not about good or evil, it's not about redemption happened or not, it's about characters' fundamental motives and personalities. BG3 contradicts those, simple as that. Let me give you an example:

What is reasonable: In BG4 Karlach never appears, because her canon ending is she didn't fix her engine in time, therefore she burned to ashes, but she loved and protected her friends and the world to the very end.

What is unreasonable: In BG4 Karlach happily works for Zariel, she loves killing people for her, especially children. Actually, she has done such things for 100 years. And why? Well, nobody knows, maybe because concussion is a thing.


Out-universe, consider writers' intentions. Did they retcon old characters because they wanted to explore new narrative possibilities with them, or because they wanted to make them new characters' stepping stones? Don't speak like this is natural development for characters and the writers didn't have a choice, they did, and this is what they chose to do.

Also I think it's funny to say "everything happened isn't canon" when the writers specifically chose a canon ending in which the character stayed in the party till the end to retcon.


I really can't understand your point. First it's "there's something wrong but consider WotC got involved, it's normal and we should get used to it", and later it's "there's nothing wrong because everything isn't canon and is just in your head". Which is it? Is there something wrong or not? You seem to have some arguments about Karsus there as well, can I say to you "your points are all invalid because those settings just exist in your head, they are Schrodinger's settings"? Last, sincerely, are you okay friend? Your response is...a bit concerning.

Well i just think they will never rewrite anything..
thats why i dont bother that much..
but indeed there are some weird things but i really dont care that much anymore..
In the end i will be probably wrong anyways.. its always like that in Forums.. hauhauha
Just Try to not get too Mad if they dont change anything in the end.

Well you do you friend, really, I'm glad you have made peace with it, being able to enjoy a game is a great thing, I wish I and many others have the luck too.

i Get so much disapointment with gaming companies during my life..
that i just become like that..
Sorry if that kinda pissed yu off i was just Trying to Help in some way.
i already have some situations like that in other Games and never get what i wanted.
So for me its just better not get Mad about it anymore.

I only saw 2 games made Ok for this stuff of Bringin Characters and choices yu made in other games to the new one..
Dragon age inquistion had something like that.. yu could go there and mark the stuff yu did and chose in other games and that would trully affect the world giving yu new quests and stuff. relly cool the idea..
the other was in Witcher 3.. in the beginning when the dude is shaving yu the other start to ask yu a bunch of stuff.. and yu can say evrything yu did in the others.. same stuff even new npcs will apear in the world depending on what yu did in the last 2.

Hey, nothing against you, really. We all have experienced that, haven't we? Remember how Blizzard have ruined Warcraft, or how Bethesda have ruined Fallout? Just to name two. Well, thanks for replying anyway.

Even though I don't think Larian will actually change anything, if they did at least offer an out for why these characters are so OOC I would look much more favorably on BG3 and actually bother to finish it. Just saying.

Also, I know this is probably radical, but I do think if you're making what's supposed to be the continuation of a beloved game series, giving some slight respect to player choice is probably a good move, no matter how old the preceeding game is. (Looking at WotC here, too).

This might be a case of trying to have their cake and eat it too?

MortismalGaming points out that Saverok literally just exposition fairy's an attempt to paper over the holes in the Baldur's Gate continuity the game made and does so poorly. The Emperor being Balduran "reveal." Vic and Sav's characterizations, and I'll include Minsc to some extent here as he feels more internet meme version than anything else. And IIRC, in WOTC's canon, isn't Jaheira dead? IIRC, "BG3" was advertised as a sequel to the games. However, it turns out that it's actually a sequel to the Descent into Avernus module by WOTC in a clown suit, which is why literally all of the tie ins to the games are clunky at BEST.

Yup Jaheira is already Dead in the Canon.
She died in one of the Comics if im Not Wrong..
Like i told in my Other Posts.. when i Played this Game the first Time and see the Weird Stuff.
i just Try my Best to not get so Pissed Off.
Or i would not even enjoy keep playing .

But Yeah Jaheira and Minsc been in the Game its weird ass Hell besides the other stuff weird with the old Characters.
(i already saw a Bunch of People Pointing other companions from the older games that would Work Better instead of Minsc and Jaheira..)

Yo this cope thread still going?!

Great job SerTomato. I first played BG3, then i played BG1 and i am not finished with BG2 (I am at the beginning of chapter 5), but i feel already that the change of Viconia in the BG3 is really very big. Yes, it is 100 years, but! She is not human, she is not homo sapiens sapiens. I want to say by this way: We (humans) have shorter lifes, we live more intense in compare to some other humanoid races which have longer lifes. I think for human 10 years are something like for drow/elf 50-100 years. Yes, 10 years is long time for human to change, but not that much!

I am sure there is no way how it will be fixed in the game by Larian Studio, but! The modders community is huge, maybe one day some modder/modders will create some big fixed patch/mod for old characters from previous games. It maybe will not have dubbing (but.. A.I. is maybe solution for this), but it will be better than this.

Good luck!

Thank you. Even though I highly doubt "Larian can't do nothing" (maybe writers can just pin their big brain Shadowheart & Orin stories on someone else instead of shitting on old characters), I do think a simple mod that turn these two into doppelgängers can make Act 3 at least playable, like many players have already suggested.

This was a fun thread to read. I have no idea how you managed to keep your sanity.

"Viconia and Sarevok's characters are completely at odds with their prior depictions"

"WELL AKCHULLY THERE EVIL IN OLD GAEMS ND EVIL NOW SO THEY ARE THE SAME I DONT UNDERSTAND"

it's like talking to a 5 year old.

And no offense to Blackheifer, if he reads this, but you are a massive dickhead.

I didn't play the originals but this kind of writing always leaves a bitter taste in my mouth. Obviously these kinds of in-character statements are not meant to be taken as a 1:1 indicator of the writer's own beliefs but usually the shoe just fits if you know what I mean. I also get that writers picking up threads from older generations need to have some freedom in how they handle these characters but it always comes across as besmirching their legacies to prop up their own characters. I just don't get why you would write it like that. Those older characters and their stories form the foundation you walk on and their legacies are part of the reason why people buy into your story to begin with. By undermining that foundation you're just shooting yourself in your own foot. Or to put it on other words: if no one will remember Viconia then why would they remember Shadowheart?

There are some really prominent examples of this (Blizzard's treating of Arthas in World of Warcraft comes to mind) and it's usually controversial at best and unanimously hated at its worst.

That being said, there will not be a rewrite of anything. Best you can hope for is a slight rearrangement of content in a potential definitive edition.

It 100% feels Blizz like. My skin crawls every time I see what they did and keep doing to Arthas or Archimonde. There is no reason to bring back beloved characters just for a cameo/minor boss fight.

I don't think they'll ever fix whatever is wrong with the story. I mean looking at their priorities they care more about adding more kissing and hugging scenes as I predicted.

Totally agree with this. Viconia and Sarevok were so badly treated and were so "off", that it felt like the writers hadn't even touched the previous games. Almost stopped playing the game at that point, since I felt the writing dropped into fan-fiction category.

I think I've already made this point so apologies for the repetition.

Like the OP the Viconia romance was my favorite. And part of what made it great can't be grasped from posting the text. It was also the quirky romance system that was based on a real world timer. That meant you really never knew when a conversation was going to take place. Which gave it an organic feel. Sometimes discussions about relationships happen when one party pushes them and sometime they just emerge. "I know we need to talk about this, when is she going to feel comfortable enough to address the elephant in the room"

The barks were also part of the experience. Viconia was constantly seething about how much she hated surfacers - ". . . how I hate them *all*" - all except one. This gave the romance had a you and me against the world aspect that warmed my goth heart.

More importantly, the romance dovetailed with the theme of the story. Charname is seething with a desire to murder people, but the good charname kept those desires in check and give stoic responses to provocations. Likewise Charname remained level headed in the face of Viconia's insults. Not because they enjoyed the abuse but because they saw it for what it was, as false face, a mask that kept people from getting to know the real person full of fears and insecurities; there are aspects of the Viconia romance in the Laezel, Shadowheart and Astarian romances. Keep your dark urge in check and the facade will crumble.

BUT

For all of my love of the story it never made sense that Shar would keep rewarding her for remaining with the hero of baldur's gate.

UNLESS . . .

she was on a secret mission from Shar. Viconia's job was to corrupt the good hero, have him* take his father's throne and encourage the new god to ally with Shar.

If I were to change something I would leave behind a secret diary that describes how Viconia fell from grace** When the hero of baldurs' gate ascends as a good god Shar's plan is ruined and Shar decides to punish Viconia. In the cruelest possible way.

Having Viconia raise a child and serve the as matron mother cloister is something of a cruel joke on Shar's part. Forcing Viconia to adopt a child reminds her of what she has lost. She could have had a child with charname . . .

The second part the joke forces her to live as a pantomime of the life she could have had in the underdark as the matron mother of house DeVir.

In my headcannon / fan fiction reading Viconia actually set Shadowheart up for failure because Viconia knew that an ascended Shadowheart would kill her one day. So she ignored the secret alcove, let Showheart form friendships, never forced her to hurt animals . . .

So TL;DR. Keep Vicky as she is but let us know how Shar claimed her.


* she only romanced men unless you installed a mod
** or with Shar would it be fall from disgrace? not sure

As we all know Abdel Adrian...nevermind.

I like the idea of Viconia's memories of her time with charname causing her such anguish that she might have asked Shar to take them from her. But, I had a similar theory about Shadowheart during the EA though so maybe that's a little to pat.

I remember you, KillerRabbit, mentioning cut content from Throne of Bhaal where a reformed Viconia loses her divine powers, BG3 would have been a prime opportunity to retroactively add that back in, or have her heel turn be roped in to her penance somehow.

I can understand now in the lead up to the game why they were bring up the muliplicity of canon, "BG3 exists in its own continuity like all your campaigns do", they knew how people would react to the return of certain characters. I even felt like I was walking on egg shells around Jaheria a character who I thought they handled the translation into BG3 pretty well.

That would be great! Yes, that sequence was written by forum member Kalthorine Ut Wistan and David Gaider said he wanted to include it but time ran out . . .