The lack of future dlc or expansion is unfortunate, but kinda expected for me. Larian doesn't create dlcs, so I'm fine with it. In actual state we have "at least something we wanted", an offscreen engine fix based on our imagination that she and Tav found new engine in Avernus and save Karlach for good.
This is faaaaaaaar better than when I finished my gameplay when no patch was released so far. (I romancer her and I even was not able to go with her to Avernus). So this whole thread was successful at the end.
The avernus ending cutscene + mentions of a forge in the epilogue party are nice I guess, but I dont know if I'd go as far as to say this thread or other karlach related feedback could be counted as having been successful.
In the end, Karlach still has a really lackluster questline - a fetch quest that basically ends in act 2 already, whereafter the game proceeds to railroad us into accepting her fate, not letting us try finding other potential solutions. I could forgive a boring questline that isnt as intirguing or polished as astarions or shadowhearts quests, but the biggest offense with karlachs questline is how it makes the player/party look like the most uncaring clowns who wont put any effort into looking for potential cures for karlach ("we did everything we could for karlach" my goddamn ass lmao). Additonally, its really shallow writing to have the game treat her condition as some incurable condition that is not fixable in anyway, considering all the wild shit the party survives through or other characters as well (or the fact this is dnd, theres like countless spells that would fix her condition lol).When writing a tragic story, there has to be immense care put into it, and this was far from that - Karlachs story just feels super handwavy and only exists to present cheap drama.
For me personally, this really ruins karlachs character for me, and my overall enjoyment for this game. I mean cool, they find a forge in avernus during the 6 month period post-final fight, but I still have to put up with Karlach talking in act 3 like shes doomed/how she wishes she wasnt dying, and all my dumbass tav can say is ''maybe we can save you'' but then not... actually try anything. Suffice to say, its very frustrating and Im disheartened that larian is happy to leave karlach in this state, alongside with wyll and minthara who are also clearly really neglected characters.
Some companions are more prioritized than others. Devs usually have their favorites.
Yes you are right for sure. My post was mainly focused to the ending itself.
Her whole quest is incredibly empty and the "we did everything we could" sentence is the biggest joke in whole game, because we did nothing, ask nobody... But if they wanted to fix this, they had to do a huge changes in the game, and obviously they didn't want to...
Yes you are right for sure. My post was mainly focused to the ending itself.
Her whole quest is incredibly empty and the "we did everything we could" sentence is the biggest joke in whole game, because we did nothing, ask nobody... But if they wanted to fix this, they had to do a huge changes in the game, and obviously they didn't want to...
It's very true that her questline is extremely barebones, basically two fetch quests. And it's very sad.
Id go as far as to say Karlachs questline is probably the worst quest I have ever seen in modern gaming (from what Ive played and watched on YT/Twitch & Co etc. )
Id go as far as to say Karlachs questline is probably the worst quest I have ever seen in modern gaming (from what Ive played and watched on YT/Twitch & Co etc. )
Yep, I still love her dearly but her 'quest' is probably the worst one and the game rarely has bad quests which is sad and odd.
did we really get nothing after all this long time damnn larian really breaks my heart there so there is nothing that is in the work for karlach right?
did we really get nothing after all this long time damnn larian really breaks my heart there so there is nothing that is in the work for karlach right?
I'd say its pretty much Joever with the coping, especially with the recent news of Larian basically parting ways with BG3 and not adding new content (new karlach stuff would be new content, so theres that) and just bug fixes and already promised features such as modtools and transmorg system
I just completed my honor mode playthrough and earned my golden dice, completing the game 100% for the first time since I made this post originally (not to say I havent /started/ runs). I was definitely tentative before, with what we'd gotten. But I can honestly say that after all that's been fixed, added, changed. We did win.
While there isn't a whole big change to Karlach's questline, what was added to it and around it, as well as the epilogue are a more than satisfying ending, and new beginning. Its just that another adventure is starting, and while Larian are stepping away and dont plan to make any DLC/Expacs/DE, I still find myself happy with how it ended, and the hope and clear 'good' ending
where in the epilogue its made clear that the solution is there, and Wyll, Karlach and Tav are going to go get it.
I was surprised as anyone that Larian stepped away from the IP, but I imagine WOTC is largely to blame for that.
At the end of the day, I'm satisfied, happy, and content with what we got. The ending is poignant, and becomes positive and hopeful during the epilogue.
Rejoice, be positive, play the game the whole way through, Romance Karlach, and enjoy the epilogue.
Signing off once and for all on this thread with love to all of you for making this like.. One of the biggest posts ever on the Larian Forums to the point where change was actually made,
Wish I could share that positive outlook, but I still think karlachs story feels too convoluted and unsatisfying for me to not be bitter about it forever. The epilogue giving a wishy washy ''hey we have a lead to finding a cure in the hells'' makes it less bitter, but it still doesn't negate the fact that we really did not get enough exposition on karlachs engine problem, nor were we given any opportunities as the player to try and find solutions, instead of just giving up after a twat weapons smith told us shes doomed lol. Her and wyll are the only origin companions who dont have a proper quest line that focuses just on Them, instead of just a fetch quest and an ultimatum with a villain character we were gonna fight anyway, or in Wyll's case being sidelined by other charcaters during quests that should be focused on him (even halsin has a questline in act 2 that revolves around him, like cmon.).
If we just got dialogue for karlach to let HER make the decision to go to avernus at least, that'd improve her story - maybe a scene where wyll and/or the player can convince her that theyd go with her and she wouldnt be alone. Just anything to give her more agency in that decision since it feels offputting to just MAKE her go to avernus right at the end when shes dying despite all her protests of returning there. It would also give a more hopeful outlook for karlach in act 3 since majority of her dialogue right now is so doomer-y that just feels incredibly cynical. I doubt we'll get that, though, so I can only hope that for any future projects larian works on, they put more care into writing tragic characters lest we get another "we did everything we could for karlach" situation.
I really cant remember the pre-requisites for it but it is there in the game at certain permutation when you can
ask and let Karlach decide on her own if she wants to go to Avernus or not and is based on her approval rate what she will decide.
Just really a shame that there was not enough time to add hell zone, don't know if it was going to be Avernus or just some other portion of hell but it was going to be about Vlaakith's temple area of sort, is really a pity it ended up getting cut out would have had a chance to get Karlach's story more fleshed out for sure.
I never bookmakered it but it was when people were talking with Sven Vincke and there was a lot of talk about stuff, places, visions they wanted to add into the game but didn't make for various reasons such as lack of tech to support it properly or just slowing down the flow of gameplay too much or simply just lack of enough time for it, another example was having more places to see inbetween the transistion from Act 2 to Act 3.
So it really shows how lacking Karlach, Wyll (too many rewrites) and Minthara suffers from, what I find most odd is why is Karlach still not added onto the official banner/poster as part of the beloved origin team?
Wish I could share that positive outlook, but I still think karlachs story feels too convoluted and unsatisfying for me to not be bitter about it forever. The epilogue giving a wishy washy ''hey we have a lead to finding a cure in the hells'' makes it less bitter, but it still doesn't negate the fact that we really did not get enough exposition on karlachs engine problem, nor were we given any opportunities as the player to try and find solutions, instead of just giving up after a twat weapons smith told us shes doomed lol. Her and wyll are the only origin companions who dont have a proper quest line that focuses just on Them, instead of just a fetch quest and an ultimatum with a villain character we were gonna fight anyway, or in Wyll's case being sidelined by other charcaters during quests that should be focused on him (even halsin has a questline in act 2 that revolves around him, like cmon.).
If we just got dialogue for karlach to let HER make the decision to go to avernus at least, that'd improve her story - maybe a scene where wyll and/or the player can convince her that theyd go with her and she wouldnt be alone. Just anything to give her more agency in that decision since it feels offputting to just MAKE her go to avernus right at the end when shes dying despite all her protests of returning there. It would also give a more hopeful outlook for karlach in act 3 since majority of her dialogue right now is so doomer-y that just feels incredibly cynical. I doubt we'll get that, though, so I can only hope that for any future projects larian works on, they put more care into writing tragic characters lest we get another "we did everything we could for karlach" situation.
The quicker Larian releases the Mod Instrument the better, with AI voice anything is possible including Fixing Engine Mod for the Tiefling Waifu.
I really cant remember the pre-requisites for it but it is there in the game at certain permutation when you can ask and let Karlach decide on her own if she wants to go to Avernus or not and is based on her approval rate what she will decide.
Maybe it was in previous patches, but i've tested few scenarios in 1.6 and the dialogues at the docks are always the same. Tav romancing Karlach as only chance to save her (Wyrmway not completed so Wyll not BoA) with 100, -10 and -40 approval before entering the morphic pool the dialogue outcomes dont change. When Wyll is BoA and you are only a friend its also indentical regardless of the approval 100, -10 doesnt make any difference.
Originally Posted by lemontree
If we just got dialogue for karlach to let HER make the decision to go to avernus at least, that'd improve her story - maybe a scene where wyll and/or the player can convince her that theyd go with her and she wouldnt be alone. Just anything to give her more agency in that decision since it feels offputting to just MAKE her go to avernus right at the end when shes dying despite all her protests of returning there. It would also give a more hopeful outlook for karlach in act 3 since majority of her dialogue right now is so doomer-y that just feels incredibly cynical. I doubt we'll get that, though, so I can only hope that for any future projects larian works on, they put more care into writing tragic characters lest we get another "we did everything we could for karlach" situation.
The engine quest going nowhere in Act3 despite all the leads to Gondians, heaps of enriched iron that somehow allow Steel Watchers to not overheat etc. will always look bad and unfinished (even regardless if it would be possible to fix the engine or not) compared to the 4 EA origins quests.
Regarding convincing her earlier it's difficult since it could totally change the endings, i mean i would love the have the possibility hidden under some dialogues or triggered by books (ie Disorders of the Nerves and Mind: A Treatise Edition 2: Experiencing Hells), but it would require rewriting. In the game MC Tav is a 6 INT in terms of understanding trauma and all you can do is to ask Karlach to go back to Avernus on her own...3 times...(after second upgrade in Act2 and twice in Act3 during/post Gortash), while she constantly points out how loneliness was eating her alive there. It's doomery in act3 but kinda consequential to the type of response she received from Tav. Her lines at the dock's are kinda extension to what she's been expecting "I thought i knew, but you..." "You can't, you..." .But i agree its a cheap approach especially when you romance and have the 'lets play pretend' date, even steorotypical 6 INT would be able to understand and communicate will to go and fight for her life even in the hells, without waiting until the dramatic end, also considering the whole game story takes few months rather than few weeks.
Yeah, all good points the epilogue softened the blow and gave some hope in regards to a dlc or more content from larian. But then that hopium got shut down pretty quick. The engine questline into act3 will jist be a really hard blemish for me to ignore, my final thoughts are i hope that larian learns from this going into their next games writing. Cause my biggest hang up going forward now is i wanna support larians new games but i really dont wanna experience this sudden *gotcha* that karlachs story left me with. Espcially with all the obvious ways of it to be fixable in plain sight.
It's so good to return after all these months and see that everything I warned you about happened exactly as I said would happen. When I told you weeping on some god forsaken forum was not enough - you called me toxic. When I told Larian never planned to give her good ending - you called me a troll. And now I can say that it was very long time since I was this happy because you and Karlach got exactly what you deserve.
It's so good to return after all these months and see that everything I warned you about happened exactly as I said would happen. When I told you weeping on some god forsaken forum was not enough - you called me toxic. When I told Larian never planned to give her good ending - you called me a troll. And now I can say that it was very long time since I was this happy because you and Karlach got exactly what you deserve.
"You and Karlach got what you deserved" Okay bro, so you didn't really care about Karlach at all and just used her to be a toxic prick? Gotcha
It's so good to return after all these months and see that everything I warned you about happened exactly as I said would happen. When I told you weeping on some god forsaken forum was not enough - you called me toxic. When I told Larian never planned to give her good ending - you called me a troll. And now I can say that it was very long time since I was this happy because you and Karlach got exactly what you deserve.
Karlach has now an extended Avernus ending which can be called as good with off screen engine fix based on player imagination (which was the most obvious solution for Larian and most people expected this here) and another smaller updates in her story during the campaign, so I think the whole effort was at least partially successful. Of course it is not a completely new quest with Avernus location and 30 hours of new gameplay, but it is far far far better that BG3 with patch 0 when I finished the game for the first time.
"Larian replaced the original F tier ending that ignores players' choices with a D tier ending that also ignores players' choices, plus we can fix anyting using our imagination, therefore they listened."
They didn't, or they did and just didn't care. After almost 1 year, Karlach's quest is still marked as "failed" in the game file, her mission is still a glorified fetch quest except the items you fetched go no where, all the foreshadowing in early chapters still leads to an abrupt dead end, she still only got second least content which is only slightly more than Wyll (whose content is only half of Larian's favourite Astarion). Swen Vincke straight up said on his twitter that their game "doesn't need anything more" and they're happily handing Karlach's fate over to WotC.
Not agreeing with the "Karlach deserves it" dude because she definitely deserves better, like, a lot, but the cope here is just a bit funny. The game didn't change itself, you just changed your mind, it's called compromission.
Yeah, to me the new ending feels more like a bandaid, it helps a little but it doesn't fix it.
The biggest problem i find with Karlach is that her problem is easy to solve in the forgotten realms, even more than other companion's problems, so her questline "ending" makes no sense in the setting.
Well it can be D or C. Regardless the changes are: Avernus cinematic, edited epilogue that originally didnt even include possible fix, it was just living in Avernus waiting for friends help, u can probably see remnants of it when u go to Avernus as Karlach Origin, there's no mention of the Forge it's just ie Jaheira: "Hell is not your home Karlach, and if your friends do not drag you out of it it will be because you freed yourself first," ,similarly i recall there's no mention in Wyll's Origin epilogue. You can now save Karlach without Wyll, when romancing her you will get unique responses at the docks, even as friend u don't need Wyll BoA, his spoken dialogue trigger is available for the player in the dialogue tree. Obviously its a band-aid but there are few small changes and removed nonsense limitations at least.
They weren't going to alter the engine questline, or Origin stories at any point after the release probably (continuation was meant for the DLC or BG4 on which they have started working) just add some missing bits, edit things that were simply bad, or as Adam Smith said the ones "that didnt land how they intended". Around 48th minute of the video.
Now the latest interview is interesting since looks like they have learned from their mistakes, acknowledging the missing plot choices in general, but since they have moved on to another projects we will never know what they have planned for Karlach. Part of AS response about it: "There are a couple of points in BG3, where I don't think we did our best work in terms of giving the right choice space. And I think you could spot them. Well, they do to me, anyway." I can imagine its about Karlach's and Wyll's story choices, including some others.
