Larian Studios Forums Baldur's Gate III Baldur's Gate III - Suggestions & Feedback Astarion romance improvements

@Zayir: I was just trying to explain why that kiss was picked for the promo on Valentine's Day, not why it was made in the first place. (Poor Gale.)

@Anska: Well, my fault. To take a man, it looks more like a prank, than sexual violence toward women ;-) Then there won't be such a big outcry. Smart move, hahaha. Yes, poor Gale, poor homosexual men. But also the resolution was so bad that you couldn't see much other than the scared face.

I apologize for repeating myself here. This version of my proposal is more structured.

I don't know if Larian tried to prove and show on February 14, with AA in the fanservice 6 patch - "a story about abuse where the player is the victim"

But here are my suggestions. As well as a critique of the Tav-victim narrative line (5 point).

1. Tav steps for a kiss with Vampire Lord Astarion. Tav victim face is a logical fallacy. Fix Tav face as well, as body language for the passionate vampy-love kiss that Tav wants and chooses. (doesn't want to - won't choose, breakup is there)
2. Respectful fanservice is rougher-gentler. Like the night of the turn. It will also add a variety of dynamics. A regular kiss would be fine. Kneeling – on random\in public can be a trigger, it's intimate, need a mood. Player can sleep with all sorts of fantasy wildlife in this game. I don't think Lord Astarion would say "no", canonically. He denies one thing - leave him (and that's in question in patch 6, about it below)
3. Vice and evil are lavishly rewarded if one goes all the way and has enough intelligence, law and power. Sacrificial virtue, sometimes it will give nothing but suffering and death. People with power can do what they want if fortune is on their side - they will have power, strong feelings, care, love (even if it's totally vampiric and insane) and lucky stars for the rest of their lives. Natural phenomena, like Lightning Won't Strike.
Astarion. The Ascended Vampire is enjoying decadence, hedonism and vice in his palace with his faithful beloved consort, legend has it that their night together will be the most beautiful and the most horrible. That's the truth of the Faerun, in my humble opinion. Original Narrative, here is still present in the ending and the epilogue. Don't be afraid to tell this story.
4. ?inematic clips depending on the line of play. I've heard that promised, though more endings have been talked about at the beginning of the project. Tav-ally-lover and Astarion traveling, Tav-ally-lover and Astarion weaving webs of power and masquerading in Baldur's Gate. Tav is sad in a golden cage, Astarion (?????), sighing and sulking as in the epilogue.
Also for the Astarion Spawn depending on the choice.

5. "Tav victim and an unloving abuser" is an illogical narrative line for an romance with Lord Astarion.
Please be so kind and listen.
It’s for: exploring the darkest side of romance, more: "What if..." and fanservice to listen to Astarion hiss.
Most logical: Vicious Tav, who doesn't care what Astarion does. This Tav is worse. This Tav will carve Astarion's name on themselves like Morticia Addams.
Don't tell illogical stories, save that for the fishing game, pardon.

I don't know if Tav's face-abuse-victim was a great mistake, a personal initiative intentional, Larian's choice of the main narrative line.
I have no intention of offending anyone, but I do have the intention of defending other victims of abuse, and just wounded people who themselves give autonomy to Vampire Lord Astarion several times over.
Here is a great post talking about the psychology of people choosing this path, as it were. Even with the very laugh "you're mine", no one denied that part of the novel.

I'll try to make the my argument.
It's the Devil contract that Tav really wants. Astarion is still himself, which is canonically confirmed in the interview, so I don't think he'll surprise that Tav, his horrible features, even if he sings opera in Latin.

- Astarion acts like an immoral, manipulative, toxic ass throughout the game, he likes killing, he approves, including dialogue within the narrative - there are so many wrong things in the path of evil that it's just impossible not to understand. There's some in the path of good, too. Tav has an affair with him. By Act 3 it's clear that this man doesn't play by the rules of morality anywhere, in relationships too if given the chance and he wants.
Everything's fine - kisses, happy faces, the vampire tox-romance continues.
- Tav gives 7k for this man's happiness and sees how he approves of it and happy - break up is possible, tadpole.
- Tav realises that Astarion is offering to be his spawn, and since Astarion is immoral, if Tav agrees - there's no going back - break up is possible, tadpole.
- Tav kneels down (meme princess).
- Tav sees Astarion flashing red for the morning like a Christmas tree - tadpole, break up is possible. Tav can kill him.
- Before the tadpole is cleared, the opportunity to break up is there all game.

Does this look like a accidental choice to the good and naive Tav who could be caught in a trap in which to suffer? No, I don't think so.

The contract with the Devil is signed, Astarion has poorly concealed that he's immoral and won't value choice if given the chance. Tav just gets in the chariot with the red lanterns and says "Go" whatever Lord Astarion does in 90% of this Tav knows and doesn't care.

Please leave the story of the victim of abuse for a more realistic, logical narrative line, this romance isn't dictated by it and is crumbling like a sand castle under criticism, even 10 patches won't change that, maybe… It still doesn't work.
- In the mortal ending there was an opportunity to make Tav the victim and show the abuser, Tav's neck was close by - Astarion doesn't, Lord Astarion lets Tav go.
- Tav goes into another plan with Karlach - Lord Astarion lets Tav go. (that's patch 6)

When Astarion doesn't let Tav go, who signed a contract with the Devil and has changed their mind, wants freedom – he won't poke a terrified Tav in the face, and 90% of Tav who studied this romance won't be terrified, as you and I have learnt.
Why won't he? In the epilogue, Astarion wants Tav to be cheerful, enjoy hedonism and decadence, to get in that chariot, and say: "Bring it on" - that's what he wants Freedom-Tav to do, gently, convince.

At first, I was interested in the potential angst and victim story in this romance.
"Maybe he'll cheat the player so well" kind of thing.
But that bursts like a soap bubble by Astarion's line: "Don't be a coward! We can kill them all!" that Astarion says in Act 1. Such a man cannot be touched, cannot be kissed, cannot be given autonomy. He can't even be taken as a companion. When Tav does - Tav realises what awaits them, and most importantly: that Tav into it.
"The Golden Cage" - Tav victim - is the most illogical narrative line for this romance. But the most scandalous and screaming, I admit.

Story and kissing certainly shouldn't be directed along those lines.
Offends my taste, my life experience, and most importantly - my intelligence.

"The character shows the value of violence and the dark side of humanity, as well as to his extraordinary charm and allure. This balance is extremely important because a shift to either side would make Astarion extremely unattractive or too one-dimensional and empty a character".
These are Stephen Rooney's words from an interview. A friend of mine gave it to me, unfortunately I can't find the timeline.
That's why gentle kisses are good - balance.

Romance with Lord Astarion. He's trying to be sneaky, maybe, it's still clear. Everything in this story is consummated in a diabolical way.
I don't think those who want a romance with Raphael will like the victim-line for romance where their character wants to leave 24\7.

The most logical line: is Tav, a true-medieval savage wife who is loved as much as Astarion can (going as far as permissiveness, but Tav is into it), Tav who would kill for Lord Astarion, cares for him, loves him, and will fight shoulder to shoulder with him for Astarion's Tyranny in Baldur's Gate. But he is more elegant in gaining power in this city.

I make no apologies for my little quips to Larian. I hope my suggestions and reasoning were respectful and constructive enough to be taken with dignity and respect. Thank you very much for your time.

@LiryFire BRAVA!!! Love your statement! ?

I don't find the abuse outcome that logical. My opinion is that he needs someone on his side as any normal man does. And he would not want to mistreat Tav unless he felt he had to.

Yes, the premise is that everyone dies (become undead spawn) under the Lord Astarion. I feel they have made that very clear. They do not need to push this (uncalled for) abuse in our faces to make it obvious it is an evil ending.

My first playthrough was a blind one and I decided pretty early that I was going for AA ending. Because I wanted the evil romance ending. I loved seeing all the old spawn pop like grapes on a vine and see both Tav and Astarion get everything they wanted. Now it feels like someone is steering my game against my will and I do not like that at all.

No (I mean I agree), it is not logical. Those kisses with sexuel violence context and Tav being suddenly SOO afraid of AA, when Tav himself asks, oh my god, evil evil evil Astarion, "we give him Sadistic personality disorder"! *rolling eyes* is the worst writing I've ever seen in my entire life. That great and complex story of Ascended Astarion ruiined and shattered into pieces. This game has won the GOTY.. and someone from the larian team has nothing to do other than destroy a (or an almost) very well-crafted story from the I guess, most famous male character amongst women?

The next thing, the one, who is in charge, will do, is to turn the romance scene into a R*pe scene with Tav dying of heartattack! Than, at least, this story would have a bit more realism than now with those sexual violence kisses out of character and out of context! And no! My Tav would even enjoy beeing r*aped by Astarion. So don't give him scared and sad faces. Thank you.

I heard a funny point about that.
"sound like a puritanical book burner trying to protect the “weak and impressionable" female brain"
Astarion has a more female audience, after all and this situation...
"see how it goes, bad, don't choose evil, don't choose vice, don't choose vampires (?)"

Tav - the golden cage - angst, yeah, that doesn't make sense.
I can guess how that would make sense. But one of Astarion's lines of inaction "Let's harm someone".

I'd like to know the answer to that too.
Larian reads discord more often, I heard.
But I think the feedback from 600 responses to the mail is more tangible.
I don't expect any official statements or anything, I don't even want to.
Just a kiss that's nice and interesting to watch when I press it. \It's just ridiculous.

A more abitious wish of mine: didn't consider that Tav got on the path of evil in a dark romance by accident and is afraid of how Astarion does things, explain and let me play with the things he does.
But patch 6 certainly sent my wishes to the level: that Larian wouldn't touch anything, just fix Tav face and do Minthara (I'm afraid for Minty-fella but its will fiiiine mb)

@LiryFire I think your post is incredibly well written and intelligently presents your argument. I was already on board for changing things back, but you still have supported your argument very well. I think that also, your post includes things that highlight what I believe to be the disconnect between Larian and the fandom. Let me begin by saying I don't believe Larian did this intending to harm anybody. Whatever else I think about them, the folks at Larian seem to be well-meaning, if at times immature and unstructured in their creative processes. I believe that the harm they've caused is entirely unintentional and if it actualyl reaches them (I'm very unconvinced that they actually pay attention to these forums) then they'd feel bad about it. Now having said that:

I don't believe that Larian's writers or developers go into working on this game thinking in terms of "vicious Tav" or "heroic Tav". I don't think they approach writing this game in a way that assigns Tav any sort of motivation for doing the things that they do. Not in the sense of "players can give their Tav multiple motivations". I think that to them, Tav is just Tav, Durge is just Durge. So in those ending scenes, Tav isn't written to be a willing participant who's as evil as Ascended Astarion, Tav is a mannequin for players to see the results of the player's choices. The story isn't really about Tav and Astarion as equal participants in the romance, it's about how the romance changes Astarion and what he becomes as a result. He's the main character of the story we as players create. At least that's how I think Larian approached it and how Larian probably assumed we players would approach it as well. So of course Tav doesn't look like they're into it. Tav is just a generic entity meant to provide generic feedback to the numerous unique and complex characters that populate the world. And the generic response to that situation is fear and discomfort.

My Tav is not equal to Astarion. So what? He loves him still. He is a naive boy. It's a roleplay game. The Romance was always meant and written to be enjoyed and played in a roleplaying style. Until Patch 6.

Everyone has the right to believe, what they want. It’s beyond my imagination how someone can remove the old kiss scene, which everyone loved, and replace it with 3 sexual violence Tav and still think, it wouldn't harm the players.

A story already exists. The game was released. Astarion is not a good character, he never was. Most people don't criticize it. People love that. But the fact that their character is portrayed in a patch's "kisses", which Tav are asking for, as an out of context unhappy, abused sex doll without will, when at the same time Tav is happy and adoring Astarion in the next scene. That is awful bad writing and insulting not only women’s intelligence, but also their heart.

LiryFire, I give a standing ovation, couldn't have said it better ??

And if you put in the middle-aged, white guy it becomes "palatable" - it's sad. I also wish they would have just stuck to cute promo - besides the whole issue discussed for the kisses in-game.


I have thought about this in regards to player dialogue more often, because I feel that Astarion's romance is one of the "worst offenders" in this regard. The player dialogue in his story gets more and more neutral as the story progresses with occasional dips into moralising. This makes it more suitable to a wider variety of players but it also takes away from the emotional connectivity with the story because one's own character has less personality and is less involved. They did another approach with Karlach and Gale's romances. Karlach herself is written as a hormonal teen and the player character in her romance seems to overall have the same juvenile eagerness, which - I assume - works well if your PC is younger but creates a horrible disconnect, if you have an older, more sophisticated PC (for me it feels like taking advantage of the kid my character is supposed to babysit). With Gale, who has a lot of comedy and wit in his text, the dialogue is written much more like a script of two people engaging in friendly banter. I really enjoy this because it creates a wonderful story in which both characters feel important - but it does also impose a lot of personality on the PC.

With the kiss animations there's this layer of repeatable action. Even if Tav is scared the first time around, the animation becomes weird in repetition because the emotions portrayed are static, while the story around the isolated animation moves on.

First time since I initially complained about patch 6 and after seeing that face on my DU who is not on a resist path the scared victim face put me off for 2 weeks it still puts me off so I don't kiss him.
he is going to be the rule the world option and I'll delete that Play through it had been going so well till those kisses appeared.
If you just press the line what are we ? his answers are lovers forever and such similar niceties the victim face does not compute with these statements

I found out he is pretty overpowered and 1 shotting things at the moment thats the better benefit of AA I'd say don't romance him if you're going to Ascend him it feels horrible.

It's sad to see the character getting as butchered as he is changing NSFW scenes but leaving Mintharas completely fine , his sad spawn fate needs some better direction most common idea is the ability of Tav to run after him at the very least.
I'm hoping they'll implement those more sympathetic lines for patch 7-8 that had been found for the companions.

Astarion if they can course correct a little will be a Merch gold mine for Larian and Magic the gathering , dungeons and dragons by removing the Player Character is a victim look/story and giving him a more satisying ending.
Theres reasons why Dracula who is beyond all hope is still a vampiric dream, theres reasons Damon Salvatore is still posted on threads(vampire diaries) , Eric Northman (True Blood) is still a fanfic favourite

How They're playing the Ascension card at the moment is heading his character into a wall these faces that someone mod swapped Astarion into looks like a poster for a domestic abuse charity or be it snuff films.
As said it can be some time in the future when Tav's world has been ruined by the choices it doesn't make sense that in a week he'd be so bi polar with his new relationship which he confessed in act 2 is new to him and he hasn't a clue how to behave.

Yes hes on a power trip and yes he will ride that high probably for a few weeks like Karlach and her "hahaha I'm finally free" statements.

He's not a good guy we are aware of that it's a fantasy game that the player can alter their game with a single choice . Punishing the player with pushing the victim look and cycle of abuse to the forefront in such a way isn't a good way to win fans if anything probably lose them especially if they've been following it since EA.

The absolute Toxicity coming out from each side of the Astarion fan club is also really not good for the game "Live and Let Live , You do You " not attack each other and this gave them the fuel to escalate behaviour's.

The discussion here was the impetus for me to edit this post for the forum. I wrote this post a couple days ago. I see though you probably like my arguments, you don't agree with them too much. And we have different views on the whole case.
Well, there is consent, considering that earlier people played the story differently and they were not triggered by anything to bring it back would be a pleasant outcome.


This is my main complaint with Larian and my critique of the narrative as it relates to this "generic response to that situation - is fear and discomfort"

Fear and discomfort may well be general responses in whole to everything Astarion does and the romance with him.
Generic response to that situation - doesn't work.

Especially when it is used for something intimate, when the player clicks on it the experience is not a pleasant one


I trace the path of how my character changes, build responses along the lines of the narrative. These kisses are taken out of the most logical context and placed in a vacuum.
We literally cannot create a hero beyond fear and discomfort here. Which is nonsensical for "character creation", such as githyanki who's fight is hot. And even in terms of those choices and the line as the player creates, Tav chooses coming on his own to the kiss of Lord Astarion. Anska true point from the constant looping of the animation is just plain strangely.

Isolated from the common sense of story.

Durge - he has a story, and fear of pain is definitely not something he would feel. He enjoys the pain and his own death. Generic response - doesn't exist for Durge.

Just like the Tavs on this path.

I think you're entirely right LiryFire, and ultimately it's Larian's approach to making a player character that left me so utterly frustrated and unatisfied. You're right that as far as story logic goes, a Tav who has reached that point shouldn't be reacting like that to Astarion's kiss, at leastnot at this point. But Larian isn't thinking of Tav as a character. As far as they're concerned the Tav that ends the game is every bit s empty and blank as the Tav that starts the game. You can work around what they provide to create an arc or a unique character, but only because of headcanons and the fact they give multiple choices so you can get multiple outcomes and reactions. But Tav doesn't change and develop unless you in your mind think that they do. Hence the kiss animation. It's not really about showing Tav's relationship from their perspective. It's about showing who Astarion is as a character. Someone cruel and intimidating and abusive, someone to be feared, not admired. It doesn't make sense for Tav's story because to Larian, Tav doesn't have a story. They're there to experience the other stories that exist. And to be clear, I think this is the wrong way to approach this. It's resulted in this scene which not only is harmful to people but doesn't make sense narratively.

Great post, thank you, LiryFire!

I'd also like to add that Astarion has been established as a character that wants to PROTECT Tav, NOT HURT them. Nirraart has made the perfect short showcasing his lines: https://www.youtube.com/shorts/EH15C67NgiE

Then we also have the banter where Astarion says: 'I have one person who trusts me completely, that's enough for me. We're both happy with our arrangement. I need someone I can trust, and now I know they'll never betray me'. Excuse me, but how can Tav's faces be of someone who trusts him completely and is happy with the arrangement? Seeing their behaviour they just cannot wait to betray him. Making Gale fall in love with you and helping him become a God has now become an even more enticing option in case things go wrong - after all he wants you in the Heavens with him and suggests he might help you ascend. Tav who is unhappy with AA would just elope with Gale and become even more powerful than AA.

Here's also annoyed AA at the epilogue party: 'I give you wealth, power, pleasure, every decadence that can be afforded to a person. You are my consort, and I will see you living the very best life, even if you don't appreciate it'. Totally sounds like someone who wants to make his vampiric spouse miserable, scare them to death and sexually abuse, right?

Nirraart has also released yet another short with mortal Tav who asks to become a vampire in the epilogue. Absolutely not scared, delighted even: https://www.youtube.com/shorts/NvoDGhdYOiY. So why are they so horrified by his passion and dominant behaviour in the kiss scenes?


This just makes the whole thing even sadder. Whoever is pushing for this nonsense is crapping over someone else's amazing work and going against their very vision of the character.

Another issue with the AA kisses is they don't make sense. Even if AA turns them, he does not have control over them until the tadpole is gone. He should still be putting on the love charm and manipulation for his own self preservation.

The Dark Urge and a powerful Tav can still kill AA if they wanted to, even after being turned, due to the tadpole. If AA shows his abusive cards this early, before he even has control over them due to the tadpole interfering with his control, then Durge/Tav have every reason to kill him before he controls them. I don't buy that AA would put his life in jeopardy like that, by abusing a spawn he has no control over, before the Netherbrain is dealt with.

Also, the only reason people think Tav is a spawn is because of a dev note saying they are a spawn. However, if you go off how Tav is turned in-game, they are turned differently than how spawn are turned. The blood of the creating vampire is not used to make spawn. It is significant that Astarion gave Tav his blood. The reason it's a small amount of blood is, in vampire lore, giving a newly turned bride too much blood will make them go insane. It feels like the writing of Astarion was handed down from a master to a pupil who isn't aware of the intentions of the original writer, so what we're left with are kisses that don't make sense and lore breaking dev notes.

Why is he putting his hand on Tav throat in the first place? It has no effect, it's not strangulation. Spawn doesn't need air.
Tav's head up, surprise effect, tender spot? Okaaaay (?)

Thank you so much for your post. I agree, the AA lines doesn't match Tav's face either.

Thank you and Nirra, of course, for finding the strength and inspiration to analyze AA in such detail. It's still the same Astarion, as confirmed, his dark side, which has always been elegant and seductive, had a balance, no matter how evil becomes, as the original Author intended.

Making me laugh out loud with a sad face. Please no Larian, that would be horrible.


I really hope that is not the reasoning behind it. In this day and age our female brains is more than up to scratch. It can handle some violence, mass murder and evil vampires.
Also props for the great points in your previous post.